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Passions in Poetry

Dark Poetry

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Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


50 posted 07-01-2003 12:22 AM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Back to the thread lol:

No one is talking about boundaries or rules, but we classify art all the time. Else you couldn't reference free verse as you just did

Personally I'd rather not have called it free verse I prefer to call all types Open Poetry The entire thread was based upon a question what is dark poetry and there have been other threads trying to define what poetry should or shouldn't be.
While classifying does not chisel into stone
for all it does for some. My points were geared to them not necessarily to you or against your thoughts. Poetry, art is a constantly evolving thing and writers and readers should always allow themselves to adapt to change and not limit themselves to a simple classification. To say this is dark poetry can be simplistic. Sometimes when I write dark I write it in a humourous way that some pick up on and some do not. Does it make it comedy or does it make it dark or does it deserve it's own classification? Where do the labels end?
littlewing
Member Rara Avis
since 03-02-2003
Posts 9998
New York


51 posted 07-01-2003 01:32 AM       View Profile for littlewing   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for littlewing

"This is what I want to say, this is how I want to say, and to hell with those stupid so-and-so's who don't understand what I 'really' mean." That's not just irresponsible writing, it's lazy writing.


Of course it is Ron, I agree with you on this . . . My main point was the blood and guts writing that writers think is dark and is really just awful writing.  Then this thread got out of control when all we were speaking of was dark poetry.  


[This message has been edited by littlewing (07-01-2003 05:31 AM).]

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


52 posted 07-01-2003 02:05 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

There's a thread in Philosophy right now, Raph, where one of Jim's posts offers some very strong evidence for exactly your point. No, it's not about classifying poetry. It's about classifying school children and the way doing so both sets our expectations and, too many times, becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. I've been aware of some of the statistics behind Jim's linked article for several years, and have heard them used as arguments against everything from I.Q. tests to standardized grades. If a teacher expects a child to do poorly, whether because of gender or race or economic status, that expectation inevitably seems to filter through to the child. Labels lead to expectations, and expectations lead to limitations.

So, yea, I understand your point. I certainly don't like seeing it happen to our kids, and I wouldn't appreciate seeing it happen to poetry.

If I thought doing away with labels and classifications was a viable answer, I would endorse it in a heartbeat. But I don't think it's viable because I don't think it's possible. Look at any child on the street and your mind is automatically going to label them male or female, black or white, rich or poor. Labels are part of language, and language is what allows us to think and to communicate.

The answer isn't to get rid of labels, but to get rid of the stereotypes we too often associate with labels. That's why I think questions like "What is dark poetry?" are valuable. Probably more than any other form, dark poetry is plagued by stereotypes, and even if no one here agrees with anyone else, at least people are being forced to think outside those stereotypes.

I just wish we could get our teachers to do the same thing.
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


53 posted 07-01-2003 12:53 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

Of course doing away with labels is not an option they've become habitual. I'm glad you agree that it's the set boundaries or stereotypes that are the problem. This is why joined this thread. I hate to see poetry or its writers feel limited by them. It destroys creativity and destroys evolution of the art. As for the thread being a valuable one it's true. I never add my thoughts to say I am right period. I add them as a view and again it's up to the reader to decide whether they agree or disagree. The purpose of a forum or thread like this is to educate and one can only truly learn by having all the angles at their disposal.
As for teachers Ron that would make another great thread. Sadly I've only had a handful of teachers that loved their job or loved their subject matter enough to push boundaries and keep open minds.
jbouder
Member Elite
since 09-18-99
Posts 2641
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


54 posted 07-01-2003 01:43 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Let's not forget that poetry is not merely meant to be interpreted in the way the author intended. I don't see anything wrong with applying a poem in a way that seems contradictory to the author's intent ... perhaps the reader as an "observer" of sorts is capable of seeing something in the poem that wasn't readily apparent to the poet when he or she wrote the poem.  There are also many attributes of poems (sound, tone, line construction, syntax) that can inspire other, very different poems that may not fit into the same "genre."

A poem with a dark mood can certainly lead the reader to identify the poem as "dark poetry," (especially when it is posted in a Dark Poetry Forum), but I've read poems with decidedly stoic tones that, upon reflection, could be construed to be as "dark" as any overtly "dark poem" out there.  Pinsky does this in a few of his poems I've read.  In fact, I think subtlety is becoming a lost art in much of today's poetry.

As far as labels go, I think they are fine as long as we don't confuse the label for the referent.  A label simply identifies certain attributes, and oftentimes attributes are or seem contradictory. A label is only the same thing as its referent if it shares all of the referent's attributes.

Ron:

Thanks for the link.

Jim
Local Parasite
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since 11-05-2001
Posts 2929
Transylconia, Winnipeg


55 posted 07-01-2003 01:59 PM       View Profile for Local Parasite   Email Local Parasite   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Local Parasite's Home Page   View IP for Local Parasite

quote:
In fact, I think subtlety is becoming a lost art in much of today's poetry.


Sad but very, very true, Jim.
 
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