How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 pipTalk Lounge
 The war question
 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

The war question

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
bsquirrel
Deputy Moderator 5 Tours
Member Rara Avis
since 01-03-2000
Posts 8382


0 posted 03-18-2003 12:50 PM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. War is definitely coming, and Bush has set a new precedent in saying "Enough diplomacy -- now we blow stuff up."

However, the U.S. also plans to rebuild what it blows up, and wants to set Iraqi away from the murderous Baath party, of which Saddam is a member. And which, by that leader's law, most Iraqis are forced to join when they're 3 to 5 years old via shady "youth organizations."

The hope is, once Iraq is rebuilt, democracy will spread like wildfire to all points of the Middle East community, handily reducing the chance of terrorist attacks in the future to the U.S. and the rest of the world's citizens.

However, I think this is inherently naive thinking. You don't just clear out a religiously fanatical killer and his minions -- who have no problem killing their own friends in political opposition (Saddam staged a palace coup in 1979, became president, and then named names of those he felt were obstacles to his rule, including friends close to him for 20 years) -- and expect the seeds of democracy to fly freely through the air.

What happens if there is major resentment on part of the Iraqi people, of U.S. military occupation? What happens if the new ruler is as bad, in some ways, as the old one? And what would happen if Bush gives up on his plan to rebuild Iraq, because he realizes its going to take much longer than the two year estimate the administration has bandied about?

In Collin Powell's autobiography, Powell mentions a time when Dick Cheney was putting heavy pressure on him during the first Gulf War to look into the possibility of using nuclear weapons on Iraq. Powell said "I don't want to let that genie out of the bottle," even as Cheney persisted.

Cheney is now the vice president of the United States, and a fierce proponent of war hawk thinking. I just hope that Bush doesn't kowtow to pressure.

Of course, it's also still credible thinking to wonder if this is really about oil. And I'm sure, in some way, it still is. But maybe this war will do good for Iraq despite the U.S.'s ulterior intentions. If this war is quick -- the administration gives a ludicrous estimate of this war being over in two weeks' time -- it would be good for the Iraqis, good for America, good for everybody.

But if this becomes a long, drawn-out battle, with who knows what atrocities going down on the battlefield, and who knows what terrorists spreading their attacks across the world in revolt, with our country's economic future currently in ruins thanks to a $1.3 trillion deficit ...

I don't even want to think about it.

There are other, major problems in the world that still need dealing with. Africa is experiencing its worst droughts in 30 years, and millions are going to starve to death as the oilfields burn -- all the humitarian money right now is going toward the citizens of Iraq, gearing up for war.

And what of North Korea? By talking out of one side of his mouth about Iraq but not the other about a dangerous nuclear power, it's no wonder Bush is losing credibility. And while I don't think you can invade North Korea without unleashing a nuclear counterattack by its leader, omething has to be done, and soon, or we're going to be entering a second Cold War, with "terrorism" being the handy placeholder for what was once taken up by "communism," and the arms race started up anew.

Pray for the troops, and that this war is a quick and surgical strike. May there be a minimal loss of life and limb, for all sides. There's no such thing as "both sides" in a war. It's all more complicated than that.

Mike



I've seen this happen
in other people's lives.
Now it's happening in mine.

The Smiths

[This message has been edited by bsquirrel (03-18-2003 12:52 PM).]

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


1 posted 03-18-2003 01:35 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
The hope is, once Iraq is rebuilt, democracy will spread like wildfire to all points of the Middle East community...

Who's hope? And who says so?

quote:
If this war is quick -- the administration gives a ludicrous estimate of this war being over in two weeks' time -- it would be good for the Iraqis, good for America, good for everybody.

Everybody? It's good to look at the big picture, but it's also good to remember that the details don't just disappear because your focus changed. Two days, or two weeks, or two years will matter very little to the casualties and their families.
bsquirrel
Deputy Moderator 5 Tours
Member Rara Avis
since 01-03-2000
Posts 8382


2 posted 03-18-2003 02:15 PM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

I never said the details would disappear. War equals carnage and death. I caught a program on PBS last night with an exiled author from Iraqi now teaching at Brandeis. He brought out some very good points for eradicating Saddam and the Baath party. And he really opened my eyes to the tyranny that the Iraqis are living under. Eight percent of the population has died in Iraq due to Saddam's crimes over the years, according to this professor.

So how is this anything new for the citizens if they're now blown up by someone in a different-colored uniform? I was only saying, if this war brings about a new system where people have a voice in their government, and no one is is fear of being brutalized or tortured by their government, then a quick war would be good in the long-run.

I know people are going to die. And they will continue to die no matter what happens. I'm not beating the drum for war. I'm just saying, now that it is inevitable, let's hope it's a quick one.

As for who's hope it is to bring a democracy to Iraq, that would be the president of the United States and his administration, backed up by their current defense plans and documents.

And finally, I don't know how you can say that a quick war wouldn't make any difference than a long one. Wouldn't a short war mean less killing and destruction than a long, drawn-out battle?

Yes, for victims, time stops, but sadly, the way life works is ... everybody else moves on. It's equally fair and unfair. Who but the victims of 9/11, for example, really feel the loss of their loved ones, and the rage of being manipulated as a symbol for political ends?

I know I can't answer that.

[This message has been edited by bsquirrel (03-18-2003 02:27 PM).]

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


3 posted 03-18-2003 02:31 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Mike, I've seen nothing in the defense plans or documents of the President or his administration to indicate any hope that democracy will spread throughout the Middle East. Not only would that be na´ve, as you suggested, but it would be contrary to the interests of some of our allies. My point was that I think you're making an assumption. Of course, I haven't seen everything by any means, so I'm willing to be corrected. I just don't think even politicians are that stupid.

And I certainly didn't suggest that a long war wouldn't make any difference, either in the long run or the short.. I just said it wouldn't make a difference to the everybody that you cited.


bsquirrel
Deputy Moderator 5 Tours
Member Rara Avis
since 01-03-2000
Posts 8382


4 posted 03-18-2003 02:47 PM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

I realized I misread pretty soon after sending the original message .... oops.

I had no idea about the idea to burn and rebuild either, until last night, again on PBS. The thing I don't get is, if that's Bush's real mission, why is he saying it's about weapons of mass destruction still?

I'm confused. If you read back, this whole thing is nothing but questions. I think I'm undergoing what psychologists call "cognitive dissonance," whereby you try to make the best of a bad situation by inventing reasons for its existence.

And you were right, my use of "everybody" is intellectually -- and emotionally -- lazy. I apologize for that. I'll never be a columnist.

And ... finally ... (puff, puff), your reminding me of the toll on victims' families made me just write "On being destroyed" in Open 25.

Thanks for the good discussion, Ron.
Cpat Hair
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Patricius
since 06-05-2001
Posts 12075


5 posted 03-18-2003 03:10 PM       View Profile for Cpat Hair   Email Cpat Hair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cpat Hair

interesting..before I came in here.. the top three subject lines were
this one.. the war question
enjoy
and what do you think about most...

almost answer the universal question of what is life about..

bsquirrel
Deputy Moderator 5 Tours
Member Rara Avis
since 01-03-2000
Posts 8382


6 posted 03-18-2003 04:30 PM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

Are you saying I think most about enjoying the war question?
Cpat Hair
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Patricius
since 06-05-2001
Posts 12075


7 posted 03-18-2003 05:58 PM       View Profile for Cpat Hair   Email Cpat Hair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Cpat Hair

LOL... no I think you pegged what you are doing in the conversation with Ron....
but I thought for a moment.. I was having some sort of metaphysical experience... three subject lines..and there... right there was the answer to everything...
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> pipTalk Lounge >> The war question Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors