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Passions in Poetry

Music?

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Mistletoe Angel
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100 posted 12-11-2002 04:14 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

(smiles) Though I turn off the radio every time I write a poem unless it is a tribute to the artist him or herself, I always listen to music otherwise. I believe music is the universal language, which possesses a harmony and spiritual connection that so many other aspects of life lacks. The only kind of music I don't listen to is that which is racially offensive, or that where the lyrics may be outstanding yet the noise is so loud and the harmony is disrupted. Therefore, I think music is the most gorgeous gift to our children and it will always be thus for their childrens children and so on!



Shakira is my favorite artist because not only she is extremely talented in many areas, with her poetic songwriting for someone so young, singing, guitar-playing, harmonica-playing, belly-dancing, and charismatic, youthful, and friendly attitude, she has also brought about a sensational worldly diversity and the respect for all cultures, as she comes from the Latin world yet inherits a Lebanese ancestry from her dad so she knows much of the Middle Eastern Culture, English-speaking cultures, and history. She is truly an epitome for the youth of today, and why I adore her so much!



But I love many other artists also, for I love all rock and roll, jazz, and world music. I love much classic rock, like Led Zeppelin, The Doors, The Beatles, John Melencamp, The Who, Bob Dylan and Bruce Springsteen. I also love classic country and many of the blues. In addition, Counting Crows have long been an inspiration to me, as well as matchbox twenty, Dave Matthews Band, David Gray, John Mayer, Santana, and U2. I also listen to much world music, including Machu Picchu flute music, salsa, merengue, Celtic music, mariachi, and Asian. Billy Joel is cool too, yay!



Furthermore, I am growing to be a songwriter, for I want to give something to the children of the world. I am learning guitar frequently and post many of my lyrics across the boards here!

Yay for music!!! Yay!!!



Love,
Noah Eaton


"Underneath your clothes there's an endless story..."

Shakira

[This message has been edited by Mistletoe Angel (12-11-2002 04:15 PM).]

brian madden
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101 posted 12-11-2002 06:27 PM       View Profile for brian madden   Email brian madden   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for brian madden

"Marilyn Manson is a master at marketing to people who want to feel justified in hating the world." as are bands like papa roach, as Bart Simpson said about angst music aimed at teenagers "its like shooting fish in a barrel"

Yes Mechanical was a rip off of Bowie's Aladdin Slane, the red hair, the acoustic guitars.... still while not original its still a good album ok Manson's voice did not work on ballads.


poetic justice, i know that there is no way i can convince people of the merit of rap music, i am not even a fan of most of it, with the exception of Public Enemy and The Roots.

"The reason rap artists make rap is because they have no other musical knowledge, and rap is easy to make" You need a understanding of harmony, rhyme and rhythm. Ok you don’t need to know how to play a musical instrument, but dance artists often compose music on computer, from a library of samples. Does that mean that what they produce is not music?  

“You can talk fast about the "street life” Public Enemy addressed issues such as radical identity,  
Hollywood’s depiction of colour among other things.


“Like I said before about the paint splattering against the wall, that is not art. I could crunch this McDonalds cup up right now and put a bottle cap on top and people would call it art. It's not”

So Jackson Pollock is not art, Andy Warhol is not art???

Actually you wouldn’t have to crush the McDonalds cup. The logo is art, as is the design.


“while totally disregarding the fact that cruel little monsters were putting the shooters through hell every school day.”

What cruel little monsters?

It takes more than the fact that a child was bullied to justify murder, it goes deeper, a break down in morals, psychological imbalance. Having written about the effects of television violence on children as my thesis it is evident that it takes a large number of factors for to turn a balanced child into a murder.

“I personally don't blame the shooters for killing their tormentors” I would, murder is hardly the answer. No matter what the person did, and yes they did kill innocent children, but what separates the innocent children from the tormentors. In their minds apparently nothing.


“If a shirt makes you kill yourself then maybe the world is a better place without you. I know that sounds harsh, but this is what this incredibly jaded 17 year old thinks.”

As Hush said “Suicidal music/marketing just might be that trigger.”
My point again, Cobain is still to this day an icon for teens. There were copycat suicides, obviously those kids had troubles. But hearing someone famous someone you admire saying “I hate myself and I want to die” then they commit suicide. What may before have been unthinkable suddenly becomes a possible solution.    

“You also need to realize that back then people didn't know drugs mess you up like they do now. And most of those drugs(with the exception of pot and heroin) were legal at that time”.

What drugs?  LSD maybe, but then at the time its effects were unknown. If people did not know of the negative effects of drugs then why didn’t more people do them, people had to have known. OK there was the same ignorance about xtc when the rave culture came to the fore but even when people started dying it did not stop people from trying it.


“'There aren't any controversial icons that piss uber-conservatives off anymore, except him. We need someone to keep authority in check.”

Marilyn Manson is hardly the great revolutionary figure of rock that say Dylan was, or even the Pistols were.
The Pistols were one of the first British bands to attack the Monarchy and swear on television, it was a big deal back then. I don’t see how Marilyn Manson keeps authority in check. If it’s the fact that he encourages teenagers to be antiauthoritarian, then that is hardly a great effort… teenagers by nature rebel against authority.





I used to make phantoms I could later chase images of all that could be desired then I got tired of counting all of these blessings"h.devoto magazine

bsquirrel
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102 posted 12-11-2002 06:54 PM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

Let me just say, despite all our disagreements, I find it really cool that everyone here is so passionate about music.

I find it akin to poetry in all the best ways. Though the practice can be killer (even after 11 years of it ).

Mikey
Christopher
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103 posted 12-11-2002 08:06 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

11 years???

Dang Mike, that's pathetic... it only took me, what? two years? to learn how to play a CD!

Jaime
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104 posted 12-11-2002 08:37 PM       Edit/Delete Message     View IP for Jaime

I still believe that if a kid commits suicide or kills someone (supposedly) because of a video game or musician, then the problem isn't with the game/music - the problem is with the kid.

There are definately influences, but I think that by blaming music/television/games/etc. we're just picking the usual suspects because they're easy to digest.

A person who does drugs has a drug problem, but most drug addicts that I know have problems that go deeper than drugs. In fact, part of the reason they started drugs was because of their problems. So does it just all go away when we solve the drug problem? No. Because the Real problem is still there.

Music can definately influence a decision, I'm not denying that, but I think that a problem would have to have already been there. Music doesn't create issues. People do.

Rock on.

Life is where you look for it.

hush
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105 posted 12-11-2002 09:19 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Mike and Jaime-

I agree wholeheartedly with you both.


Chris-

'it only took me, what? two years? to learn how to play a CD!'

This reminds me of my grandfather- he bought a brand new SUV a couple years ago (he died a year ago) and it came equipped with a CD player. Now, according to my mom, he loved the Carpenters, so she bought him so of their cd's. The cute old guy couldn't figure out how to get the "records" out of their case, or how to work the "record-player."

Thanks for the smile.  
PoeticJustice
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106 posted 12-12-2002 03:36 AM       View Profile for PoeticJustice   Email PoeticJustice   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for PoeticJustice

quote:
And why do we need somebody to keep authority in check? Are we, as a populace, so stupid as to hand over our power to some celebrity in hopes that he's going to take care of everything for us by making some fat-cat Christians in Washington mad? Thanks, but no thanks, I can question authority without having to have some icon of hate do it for me.


That's not what I mean. I mean that we need someone famous to consistently make people like Jessie Helms get mad and say what they really feel, so people know the real politician from the awesome person they advertise themselves as.

quote:
You have a lot of growing up to do then. I'm sorry, but making fun of someone shouldn't make you deserving of some nutcase's viglante death penalty. Give me a break.


It isn't just "making fun of someone". Did you know that kids are the cruelest creatures on earth? I have been there. I was always the kid that got picked on. Rarely physically, and always emotionally. And I happen to be a really sensitive person, which has gotten me into bad situations more than one time... But anyways, I had fantasies where I killed the people who tormented me and then I'd run off and never be caught or anything... And I think I might have tried it too, if I wasn't as timid as I was. Or like I am now.
You see, it isn't just kids "making fun" of kids. In today's society we tend to focus on emotions more, and sensitive, introverted kids are always the ones who get picked on. In our eyes, people who constantly berate and ostracize us are cold, cruel, calculating beasts put on this planet for one reason: to make our lives a living hell. And it works, too. Who knows what they'll do next? Maybe they'll slam my head into my locker, knowing I won't retaliate even though I'm bigger than them. Maybe they'll start the "you have no friends" schpeel. Maybe they'll say something that cuts like a razor and festers like an infection. Maybe they'll just spread a good old fashioned rumor around the school about you. At this point, neither person is a person anymore. The victim is a time bomb waiting to go off, anger bottled up inside and waiting to get out. The other person is no better than a Nazi. And this isn't in elementary school anymore, either. So these kids know they're hurting us badly. You tell me to grow up, maybe you need to take a look back at your school years and ask yourself what is was like for you. Going by what you said, I'm assuming you weren't one of the kids picked on all the time. You don't know how it feels.

quote:
No, it sound immature. If someone is to that point, anything probably could trigger them. Suicidal music/marketing just might be that trigger. I'm not saying lay the blame on the artist, but saying 'the world is better' without someone is unneccessarily cruel.


No, nothing is going to "trigger" someone into suicide. A person will just be incredibly depressed one day and go for it... Again, I've been there. I never actually attempted it, but I used to think about it a lot. But then I thought how my family would react, what my dad would think when he comes home from work one day and finds my dead body wherever it is, realizing that he'd probably die from a heart attack if that happened. And then of course there's other stuff. I'd never experience my favorite food again, I'd never get to listen to all the music I want to listen to, I'd never get together with Kristi, or even talk to her again. Plus, if there is nothingness when you die, which is what I'm afraid of most, then it'd really suck.
And saying the world is better without someone is not cruel. I guess it depends how much value you place on a human life, and right now it's very little for people here. You're all caught up with small amounts of deaths, 12 from the sniper and couple hundred from school shootings. And the world trade center attacks killed around 3,000. Guess what? That many people die every day in Africa. What do we do to help? Nothing. Do we send troops over to bomb the hell out of the warlords taking all the food? No. Do we send humanitarian aid to them? Not very much. More went to the 9/11 families than to Africa. And do we go in there and intervene? No. And do you know why we don't do any of this? Because there's no oil in Africa. We are selfish, pompous assholes. Every one of us. We don't care about anything but ourselves and our own country. You can call me childish if you like, but I don't see how you can justify taking all that time saving one person from a self induced death when you could be saving dozens, hundreds, or even thousands of lives that are in danger from circumstanced beyond their control elsewhere.

quote:
You like the sound of that... so, because we Americans basically trained and armed the Taliban, did we deserve the terrorist attack we got? Do scantily-clad women deserve to be raped? You can't just push the blame from your action off onto the person that you did it to- once again, that's immature and exceedingly irresponsible.


Err, no. I was thinking more along the lines of a bully getting what was coming to him. They get labelled as the victims in the media, and they put the stick in the hand of the killer, the stick being the anger and hatred they have.

quote:
poetic justice, i know that there is no way i can convince people of the merit of rap music, i am not even a fan of most of it,
with the exception of Public Enemy and The Roots.


Well... To tell the truth I'm starting to see more eye to eye with you guys about rap. I have been generalizing it, but that's because all you see on TV or read about is Snoop Dogg, P. Diddy, and other crappers like them who go on and on about the gangster life... But there's a rap in one of Sting's songs. It's in french, but it worked very well with the song. And once I translated it it had good lyrics. So, I guess rap artists are artists after all. Doesn't mean I think they're talented, though...

quote:
Ok you don’t need to know how to play a musical instrument, but dance artists often compose music on computer, from a library of samples. Does that mean that what they produce is not music?


Yes but you still need to know how to read and write music, and you need to have an understanding of how pitch, tempo, time, and dynamics work.

quote:
It takes more than the fact that a child was bullied to justify murder, it goes deeper, a break down in morals, psychological
imbalance. Having written about the effects of television violence on children as my thesis it is evident that it takes a large number of factors for to turn a balanced child into a murder.


Nah. Like I said, I would have done it if I wasn't so timid. And I guess if I had less self control than I do now... Many teens don't think about consequences, but that's all I think of...

quote:
No matter what the person did, and yes they did kill innocent children, but what separates the innocent children from the tormentors. In their minds apparently nothing.


Well, I think it was just because they knew they didn't have enough time to search out every person they hated, so they just shot randomly and hoped to get lucky.

quote:
What drugs?  LSD maybe, but then at the time its effects were unknown. If people did not know of the negative effects of drugs then why didn’t more people do them, people had to have known. OK there was the same ignorance about xtc when the rave culture came to the fore but even when people started dying it did not stop people from trying it.


Let me clarify: The drugs hadn't been around long enough for them to realize they'd turn out like Ozzy in the future. They knew that an O.D. could kill them, but they didn't know that the drugs totally fried them later in life.

quote:
Marilyn Manson is hardly the great revolutionary figure of rock


Never said he was. All I said was that he's a necessary evil. I personally think his music is crap...

quote:
I don’t see how Marilyn Manson keeps authority in check.


He makes conservatives mad, and the conservatives try to get him in trouble for it and they fail miserably, so then new standards and morals are created. Before the Rolling Stones have sexual innuendoes in music was big no no.
Christopher
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107 posted 12-12-2002 05:04 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

There is a thin line to be drawn there between selfish and realistic.

I'm not about to head over to Africa and spend my life to help someone. Why? Because it is my life. I am the only one with the right to decide what is right for me. You mislabel me "selfish" because I am not "helping" people in Africa who are dying. What gives you that right? Were you here when my friend got in a really bad car accident to help her? What about when my brother got jumped by a bunch of gang members? What about my sister who doesn't have enough money because she's working and going to school all the time? What about my nephew who's crying right now because he has a really bad diaper rash? I haven't seen you here helping us out - so does that make you selfish, or too pre-occupied with the people in Africa who are no more people than we here are, but happen to be a cause?

No, while I support anyone's right and commend them on their efforts to help others, I cannot accept that it is selfish to keep your hands on the homefront in order to make a better life for yourself and the people you care for. To do otherwise trancends selfishness and jumps right on over into ignorance.
Christopher
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108 posted 12-12-2002 05:12 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

and another thing:
quote:
...but I don't see how you can justify taking all that time saving one person from a self induced death when you could be saving dozens, hundreds, or even thousands of lives that are in danger from circumstanced beyond their control elsewhere.
Please tell me at what number a human life become less valuable than another, or many? Should we leave to save two instead of one? Three instead of two? How about one hunderd fifty instead of sixty? What value have you decided a human life is worth? Did you determine their worth to society and factor that in? How about the emotional factors? DId you count the relatives that would miss each person when they died?

No offense meant here, honestly, but you're mathematics aren't clear to me right now.
hush
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109 posted 12-12-2002 10:23 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Poetic Justice-

You have a lot of nerve. How can you make assumptions about my life, and consider my opinion less valid because 'I haven't been there?" That is a big load of bull, and becasue I'm feeling particularly candid today, let me tell you why.

You think I don't know that kids can be cruel? Let me tell you something- people used to beat me up on a regular basis. Nobody, I mean nobody would talk to me. I don't feel like going into specific causes of that ostracization right now, but believe me, I know about rumors, I know about being ripped apart emotionally, I know about seemingly everyone on earth hating me and considering me their own personal jokes. I just don't trot around whining about it, because that gets me nowhere. Normally I wouldn't even use it here, but like I said, I'm feeling pretty candid today.

The thing is, I don't think most of those kids truly understood what they were putting me through. I think they did something typically human, and forgot that I was human as well. They made me into an enemy, and then they dehumanized me. Well, for a while, I did the same- I hated back. But I think maturity makes you realize that we're all human, we all bleed the same color- even our enemies, even those who are crulest to us. Bullies have troubles, concerns, and happiness too. The instant you turn your enemy into someone less human, less deserving of life than you, you become what you are crying out against.

Nazi's were people too.

'No, nothing is going to "trigger" someone into suicide.'

Yes, something does. You say you never actually attempted it- well I can play your card right back to you then. You haven't been there. I have, and believe me, you don't just up and decide "well, I think today I'll kill myself..."

I'm not going to share my trigger- I'm not feeling quite that candid- but I will tell you there was one, and it was pulled numerous times that day until I had a bottle of Excedrin floating around in my stomach and the chamber was empty, and let me tell you something- it takes a lot. A lot, even when you've been contemplating it for months. Even when the way you comfort yourself through the day is "I'll go home and kill myself tonight." Youth has a funny way of making us think we have a monopoly on misery, but you know what? You share your lot with quite a few people, so maybe you should think about it next time before you say "You haven't been there." Because I have. And I'm sure a lot of other people reading this have.

[This message has been edited by hush (12-12-2002 10:25 AM).]

hush
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110 posted 12-12-2002 10:29 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Sorry, one thing I have to add:

'And saying the world is better without someone is not cruel.'

Let somebody tell you that, and then tell me whether or not it is cruel.

And *sigh* I guess it's kind of sad that a thread about music has wound down to this... I thought about not posting what I did, but then I thought what the hell... better speak my mind now while I'm up to it. But really, if you think about it, Poetic Justice, you denounce rap for glorifying violence.... but isn't your justification of why bullies should be killed the same thing?
bsquirrel
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111 posted 12-12-2002 12:57 PM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

Chris -- I meant 11 years to get that awful white sticker off the top of the CD! (and another three to remove that adhesive chip from the back of the tray!)

bsquirrel
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112 posted 12-12-2002 04:02 PM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

Having read your replies PoeticJustice, I can only offer two "pills" of advice. Swallow.

Pill 1: Move on.

Pill 2: Get over it.

Bitter ain't becoming on anyone.

Mike
bsquirrel
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113 posted 12-12-2002 04:04 PM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

And, finally, I can see why this thread is called "Music?" This thread seems to be about anything but, now.

Incidentally, I like cheese sandwiches. (as long as we're OT...)
Jaime
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114 posted 12-12-2002 05:48 PM       Edit/Delete Message     View IP for Jaime

I wasn't going to get involved but..

"You can call me childish if you like, but I don't see how you can justify taking all that time saving one person from a self induced death when you could be saving dozens, hundreds, or even thousands of lives that are in danger from circumstanced beyond their control elsewhere."

As a person who as "been there" you should understand suicidal people a lot better. When you're truly suicidal you ARE in danger from circumstances beyond your control. True, you decide whether or not you take the plunge, but there are things that factor into it that are not of the person's control. It's not excuses. It's just the truth.


Anywho, to talk about something kind of having to do with music...

...does anyone else think that having 'a song' between you and your significant other cheapens the value of the relationship because you're essentially using recylced love songs?

Props to those who bother to find a song other than "I Don't Want To Miss A Thing" and "Amazed".



Life is where you look for it.

[This message has been edited by Jaime (12-12-2002 06:01 PM).]

Poet deVine
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115 posted 12-12-2002 07:15 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

And isn't it sad that if you have a favorite song while you're in a relationship when you break up, you can't bear to listen to that song again? The song didn't cause the break up (I hope). So the trigger of emotion and memories when you hear that particular song actually controls you. Now THAT is powerful.
PoetryIsLife
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116 posted 12-13-2002 12:51 AM       View Profile for PoetryIsLife   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for PoetryIsLife

"Let me just say, despite all our disagreements, I find it really cool that everyone here is so passionate about music."

I agree Mikey.

~Titus

"A life unexamined is not worth living."
                       -Socrates

PoeticJustice
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117 posted 12-13-2002 03:04 AM       View Profile for PoeticJustice   Email PoeticJustice   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for PoeticJustice

quote:
I'm not about to head over to Africa and spend my life to help someone. Why? Because it is my life.


Exactly. And our society today says that's not selfish. But it is. We are all very selfish. Incredibly selfish. Me, you, your neighbor, the president. But we don't realize it because we all are. If there was a society in the world that was completely selfless then we might realize just how selfish we are, or bomb the hell out of them. I'm just saying that we have it incredibly good here, and to fret over one person dying when there are thousands dying elsewhere eveyr day, in more horrible and painful ways I might add, is almost ignorant. I don't place a whole lot of value on a human life, maybe because I believe in reincarnation, maybe because I see that all people are evil in at least some way(John Locke theorized that people are innately evil, and that through education we can overcome most, if not all, of the evilness, I agree with him except that I don't think it can ever be completely eradicated), or maybe I just don't place a lot of value on white people's lives. Now, I'm white too, so I'm not racist, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that white people are the most evil people on Earth--in the past and present.

quote:
Were you here when my friend got in a really bad car accident to help her? What about when my brother got jumped by a bunch of gang members? What about my sister who doesn't have enough money because she's working and going to school all the time? What about my nephew who's crying right now because he has a really bad diaper rash?


Did you ever inform me of any of that? Was I even aware of the realities of this world when these things happened? Besides, these are all very petty concerns(except for the car accident one and the gang member one, if it was that bad). The gang member thing just helps prove how evil we are, babies are human in the purest form, and they are completely selfish and uncaring about what's going on around them until they reach about a year old I think it is.

quote:
I cannot accept that it is selfish to
keep your hands on the homefront in order to make a better life for yourself and the people you care for.


See, another thing. Homefront? Do we not all live on the same planet? Are we not all human? It's because of the borders that seperate us that this planet is in the almost perpetual state of war it is in. There is always a war going on. Why? Because instead of accepting, or at least tolerating other peoples' ideas and beliefs, we choose to change or kill them. Take Communism for example. Woodrow Wilson started the "red fever" by declaring them as evil, and democracy as good. What you don't know is that Wilson started several covert operations to keep the latin american countries from leaving 3rd world status and "threatening democracy". Communism is not bad, Stalin was. In an ideal world, communism is the government of choice, because everyone is equal. But people are selfish and aren't content to be equal, they always want to have more than the other guy. So corrupt leaders come into power and mess everything up.

quote:
Please tell me at what number a human life become less valuable than another, or many? Should we leave to save two instead of one? Three instead of two? How about one hunderd fifty instead of sixty? What value have you decided a human life is worth? Did you determine their worth to society and factor that in? How about the emotional factors? DId you count the relatives that would miss each person when they died?


By your reasoning some lives become worth less than others. And yes, I believe the more lives you can save, the better. I don't know why I feel this way, as I've made it pretty clear that I despise the human race and everything it is, but maybe deep down inside I have hope that in the future we will transcend all this and live in harmony.

quote:
No offense meant here, honestly, but you're mathematics aren't clear to me right now.


No offense taken. I love arguing. This is one of the longest debates I've ever been in that hasn't started flaming.

quote:
You have a lot of nerve. How can you make assumptions about my life


I did say I was making a judgement solely on your post.

quote:
You think I don't know that kids can be cruel? Let me tell you something- people used to beat me up on a regular basis. Nobody, I mean nobody would talk to me. I don't feel like going into specific causes of that ostracization right now, but believe me, I know about rumors, I know about being ripped apart emotionally, I know about seemingly everyone on earth hating me and considering me their own personal jokes. I just don't trot around whining about it, because that gets me
nowhere. Normally I wouldn't even use it here, but like I said, I'm feeling pretty candid today.


I don't go about and whine about my experiences, either. I said them here to drive my point home. I've left my past behind me, as I'm now surrounded by more mature, intelligent people.
You know why I was ostracized by the other kids? Because I was bigger than them. Not fat, just bigger. So kids assumed I was a bully, because bullies are always big mean guys right? And then they subconsciously weigh my personality(we all do it), and they determine that they can do what they want to me because I won't chase after them and beat them up or or tell the teacher. No, I'll sit there and take it until I start to cry. And then of course when I am sitting there crying on the playground the actual bullies, not just the little imps that surround me, but the king demons, come up to me and do what they want to me. Spit on me, kick me, hit me, it's all good fun for them. To say they don't realize what they're doing is utter lunacy. They take joy from your pain, they prey on the weak of heart and the stout of stature. They are the criminals of the future. They are the reason the world is as bad a place as it is now.
I never felt like I was the butt of every joke, though. I can tell what a person is thinking when I see them. I pick up on other peoples' vibes very easily.

quote:
The instant you turn your enemy into someone less human, less deserving of life than you, you become what you are crying out
against.


You can't fight sticks and stones with knowledge or maturity. Sometimes you have to lower yourself to someone else's level to fight back; beat them at their own game and they turn away in shame. Hey, I like the way that sounds.

quote:
Yes, something does. You say you never actually attempted it- well I can play your card right back to you then. You haven't
been there. I have, and believe me, you don't just up and decide "well, I think today I'll kill myself..."


I see where your argument is coming from now. When something hits us personally we tend to let our emotions cloud our thoughts. That's why I try to be as objective as possible.
And maybe I am wrong about the trigger thing, it is true that I never actually attempted it. Unless you consider grabbing the knife and holding it there for a while as attempted(holding as in just holding, not getting ready to stab yourself).

quote:
Youth has a funny way of making us think we have a monopoly on misery, but you know what? You share your lot with quite a few people, so maybe you should think about it
next time before you say "You haven't been there." Because I have. And I'm sure a lot of other people reading this have.


I don't think I'm more miserable than most. I realize that I don't have a monopoly on misery. Back when I was a younger teen I did, the whole teen angst thing. But I've grown out of that. I've become a utilitarian and I'm miserable because of this, I'm miserable because I understand how things work; people, society, everything. Ignorance really is bliss. I seek knowledge to fee my curiosity, and then my good friend depression grabs it from curiosity before he can digest it.

quote:
Let somebody tell you that, and then tell me whether or not it is cruel.


Well, of course I'd be mad. Granted I was hurting the balance of things somehow and I didn't realize it, emotions would cloud my objectivity and I would become very defensive.
Tell me, do you believe that the ends justify the means? If someone could kill Hitler before he did anything bad, do you think that they should do that?

quote:
if you think about it, Poetic Justice, you denounce rap for glorifying violence.... but isn't your justification of why bullies should be killed the same thing?


I'm like every other person hush. When I don't like something I find every available fault and exploit it as best I can. People tell me I'd be a good lawyer, but lawyers are incredibly evil and I'd never want to be one. And I believe I said in my last post that I've changed my attiture towards rap. Some rap at least.

quote:
Bitter ain't becoming on anyone.


I like the term jaded better. It more fits me. I'm not old enough to be bitter yet.

quote:
As a person who as "been there" you should understand suicidal people a lot better. When you're truly suicidal you ARE in
danger from circumstances beyond your control. True, you decide whether or not you take the plunge, but there are things that factor into it that are not of the person's control. It's not excuses. It's just the truth.


Mind over matter. Nothing is beyond your control when it comes your body. They are excuses, totally excuses. "I was depressed", Cry me a river. Then build a bridge and get over it. Either deal with your depression and thrive in it(like I do) or get rid of it. You control your own fate, not a chemical inbalance in the brain(I still don't think depression is caused by this, though).
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


118 posted 12-13-2002 04:56 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

Poetic Justice - Before I address some of your comments, I have a few words on interaction here at Passions. We are a community, a family, in many ways. As such, we operate on a few basic principles to not only allow an enjoyable place for people to visit, but a safe one as well. These tenets all revolve around the ideas of Respect and Tolerance. This disallows attacks on other members. While we are 100% tolerant of other's beliefs, we insist that they be presented in a respectful manner. Some of your comments are less than respectful and I'll ask that please ensure that they are in the future. If you have an issue with something a person says, address your comments to the statement, not the person. This will help us keep Passions as comfortable for everyone as possible and help avoid things like the flaming you're speaking of.

Ok - first, I have a feeling that it's going to be nigh unto impossible to help you see through these seemingly nihilistic goggles you're looking through. That won't prevent me from trying to knock down what I feel are some pretty narrow-sighted statements, however.
quote:
Exactly. And our society today says that's not selfish. But it is. We are all very selfish. Incredibly selfish. Me, you, your neighbor, the president. But we don't realize it because we all are.
Whoa! Full stop, back up, put on the brakes! Where, I have to ask, are you getting this? If an entire society says that it's not selfish, then, by definition, isn't it no longer selfish? It would seem to me that if a mass majority agrees that a rose is a rose, then, well, it's a rose. Secondly, you speak further down about education going toward a reduction of evil, yet say that we don't realize it? That seems contradictory - unless you're going to suggest that you're the only intelligent, educated person in the world?
quote:
I'm just saying that we have it incredibly good here…
Incredibly good? So let me see  - this is from your perspective, right? - you must come from a wealthy family who cared for you and was kind and loving at all times, with no drama, no skeletons… you must have had a beautiful childhood… oh wait, you've mentioned your misery. Well, that's selfish, of course, because instead of worrying about the things in your life, you should have been over in Africa, dedicating yourself to the good of a people who haven't asked for your help - help, I might add, that you obviously weren't in a position, mentally, emotionally, or likely fiscally, to hand out. Again, your scales aren't coming into balance here. To sacrifice yourself for something you value is noble indeed. To do it in such a mindless fashion is close to slavery. Sacrifice only means something if it truly comes from the heart - and without "selfishness" in your own life, giving to another means less than a slave cutting through cotton for his master.
quote:
…and to fret over one person dying when there are thousands dying elsewhere every day, in more horrible and painful ways I might add, is almost ignorant.
I'm still waiting for your calculations showing which human lives are more valuable than others.
quote:
I don't place a whole lot of value on a human life…
I cut out your reasoning because it becomes moot at this point. If human life has no value, then what does it matter if thirty people die here while hundreds die elsewhere? The concept of selfishness no longer matters once you claim that there is no value in that which you are suggesting should be saved. But if you maintain your tenet of selfishness, then life has meaning, has value, and I have to ask once more what you determine that value to be.
quote:
…or maybe I just don't place a lot of value on white people's lives. Now, I'm white too, so I'm not racist, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that white people are the most evil people on Earth--in the past and present.
Firstly, simply because you are a member of a race does not discount you from racism. To declaim an entire race as "something" bypasses individuality and jumps right on into the very racism you're declaiming. A person is a person, white, purple, black or green - it doesn't matter. What you're suggesting isn't something you can attribute to a color (because that would imply that white people are cruel because of their color, which would be an ignorant statement), rather, you can attribute it to a balance of power. If you want examples of cruelty, you can look up some history on the Moors, perhaps some of the ancient Egyptian lines, study the Chinese Dynasties, or perhaps peek at some Arabian atrocities. Throughout history we have people being "evil." Their color is a trait, not a causative agent.

I've debated covering inherent evil with you, but think I'd rather leave that to another time, if at all. I used to believe that guilt was inherent, that the only true innocence was ignorance. I don't feel that way anymore, because I believe that true evil comes as a result of ignorance, not from an abundance.
quote:
Did you ever inform me of any of that?
Nope, I didn't inform you. I have now though - when will you be here to help my sister out? Or my friend? She's still walking around on crutches, broke, because she's been out of work for several weeks now. No, I doubt you will be. But let me ask you this: when was the last time an African came up to you and told you of his/her situation and asked you for help? I've never had one ask me for anything. I've had Sally Struthers waddling around the TV screen telling me they need help, but they never made me aware of it,.
quote:
Was I even aware of the realities of this world when these things happened?
Yes, you were aware of the realities of this world when these things happened. Countless numbers of people die here in the US alone every year. You can tally the results from a thousand different surveys as to the cause of death, but in the end, they are dead. This isn't something that's hidden, that we know nothing about. How many times have you heard of someone being seriously injured in a car accident? Starving after losing their job? Injured in a war for our freedom? All the time, all the time, all too often.
quote:
Besides, these are all very petty concerns(except for the car accident one and the gang member one, if it was that bad).
Really? Ask my sister how petty working a full-time job and going to school full-time is. Warn you though, better duck, she might not be too happy about it. And of course it's petty that my 10-month-old nephew is in pain and doesn't understand what's happening to him. That's really petty. We should immediately stop manufacturing products that will help ease his pain and start sending all those resources over to Africa, because, after all, it's a petty thing.

I understand what you're trying to do here, Poetic Justice - it's the "good of the few vs. the good of the many" scenario. There are places where this is an applicable and right philosophy to pursue, I believe, and if you're just looking at the base numbers, I can even understand how you can say that we should save sixty people in Africa (I recognize "Africa" is merely representative of all "places" that 'need' help) over ten in America. But you're neglecting to look at the larger picture - the picture that shows the outcome if we expend all our resources to feed overpopulated countries without forwarding our own lives. It's an outcome that ends in inevitable slavery to a cause that started out with the best intentions. Once we start feeding them all our excess, what happens when we have dry times? What happens when they become adjusted to our help - so much so that they grow to depend on us like children, unable to fend for themselves because we've debilitated their drive for survival with consistent handouts? We end up in the same place, only now, we need help. You can call it selfless, but I call it ignorant.
quote:
… babies are human in the purest form, and they are completely selfish and uncaring about what's going on around them until they reach about a year old I think it is.
I take it you've never been around babies? There is nothing on the face of this planet more selfish than a baby. It exists solely to take - food, attention, care, etc. A baby is incapable of giving. We perceive it as giving because of the joy we receive when they smile or when we recognize our contribution to a growing person.
quote:
See, another thing. Homefront? Do we not all live on the same planet? Are we not all human? It's because of the borders that seperate us that this planet is in the almost perpetual state of war it is in. There is always a war going on. Why? Because instead of accepting, or at least tolerating other peoples' ideas and beliefs, we choose to change or kill them.
If all people are evil, and life has no value, what does it matter? Besides, I see virtually no tolerance in anything I've read from you so far. You say we're all human, all the "same", yet you say white man is the most evil race. You say we all live on the same planet, yet you want me to travel across the world to help someone else, when they have never come here to help me? *shaking head* I don't buy it.
quote:
Take Communism for example. Woodrow Wilson started the "red fever" by declaring them as evil, and democracy as good. What you don't know is that Wilson started several covert operations to keep the latin american countries from leaving 3rd world status and "threatening democracy".
Show me proof.  It's preposterous to think you can lay a national fear at one man's feet. I'm not justifying or denying the perceived threat, but I will deny that it could have come from one person.
quote:
Communism is not bad, Stalin was. In an ideal world, communism is the government of choice, because everyone is equal. But people are selfish and aren't content to be equal, they always want to have more than the other guy. So corrupt leaders come into power and mess everything up.
This is the first statement you've made that I wholly agree with. What I disagree with is your implication that Communism would be the ultimate way to go. Communism defeats the entire purpose of being human. It denies individuality of belief and preference and renders life as a sterile gear in a huge, churning, pointless machine. Our system, such as it is, is imperfect. But until a better one comes about that allows me to be different, to discuss issues on the internet with people from all over the world without fear of isolation or repercussion, I'm sticking with what we have.
quote:
By your reasoning some lives become worth less than others. And yes, I believe the more lives you can save, the better.
Nope, that's exactly what I was hearing from you. How can one person's life be worth any less than another's? What if you save the wrong person? What if you save the guy who goes nuts with the A-Bomb, along with all his compatriots instead of the single man who would develop a cure for cancer? Would you say the scales changed then? I don't know. I'm not trying to put a value on a human's life because I know full well that I'm now able to do so. Are you?
quote:
I don't know why I feel this way, as I've made it pretty clear that I despise the human race and everything it is, but maybe deep down inside I have hope that in the future we will transcend all this and live in harmony.
Peace is a farce and the bread of a stagnant society. Without the input of strife (whether in the form of personal or national) we would have no reason to advance. The idea of Eden may sound good to some people, but not to this boy. I want challenges, I want differences, I want people to argue with, because I want to keep advancing. Man wasn't built for Eden, whether Biblical or metaphorical. It's not and never will be in his nature - and I like it that way.
quote:
You can't fight sticks and stones with knowledge or maturity. Sometimes you have to lower yourself to someone else's level to fight back; beat them at their own game and they turn away in shame. Hey, I like the way that sounds.
This statement is ridiculous. You've just finished telling me that you aim for a society filled with harmony. You're whole basis for people being selfish is based on the "fact" that we won't help others far away… and then you suggest that in order to teach someone a lesson we should degrade to animalistic urges and become violent? Wow - threw me for a loop with that one.

Ok - I think I'll finish there and let hush have her own with ya.

Peace -
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


119 posted 12-13-2002 05:02 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

wow - that was my 7,000th post... wonder how i ever managed to post that many with as much as i ramble on.
Opeth
Member Elite
since 12-13-2001
Posts 2224
The Ravines


120 posted 12-13-2002 08:52 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

I will never forget a couple of events that took place regarding suicide and subliminal messages in music. Ozzy Osbourne was blamed for putting suicidal subliminal messages in his music and the christian crusade, which was ironically headed by Tipper Gore (cough, cough), "waved" Osbourne's song, Suicide Solution, as proof.

The problem was that these people never bothered to understand the lyrics to that song. If they did, and if they knew some facts about Ozzy's personal life, and if they could think critically (not many people can), they would of realized that they were ignorant idiots because the song is actually an anti-alcohol song.

Then there was Judas Priest, blamed for the death of a teenager because he supposedly was brainwashed into suicide after listening to a Judas Priest song.

The court through that out.

I will never forget when Ozzy was asked if he purposely hid messages of suicide in his music. His answer was basically this: that if he could place any subliminal message in his music, it would be this...

Buy my records! Buy my records!

[This message has been edited by Nan (01-11-2003 07:52 AM).]

bsquirrel
Deputy Moderator 5 Tours
Member Rara Avis
since 01-03-2000
Posts 8382


121 posted 12-13-2002 11:52 AM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

It's hard enough trying to understand Ozzy *frontwards*!!!
hush
Senior Member
since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


122 posted 12-13-2002 01:59 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

LOL, Mike.

Poetic Justice-

You remind me of my ex-boyfriend. (He wants to be a lawyer, BTW). I could systemtaically argue with every single assertion that you made in your last post, and quite successfully.

However, I have neither the time, nor the inclination to takcle your assertions about evil, about (LOL) white people ebing more evil than others, about inherent evil...

My rebuttal to your assertion about communism comes in the form of a novel called Atlas Shrugged by AynRand. I don't think her ideas about Capitalism are flawless, but she effectively debases the argument for Communism. I can almost guarentee you that if you read this book, you will never think the same way about selfishness, greed, or economics again.

Oh, and?

'You can't fight sticks and stones with knowledge or maturity. Sometimes you have to lower yourself to someone else's level to fight back; beat them at their own game and they turn away in shame. Hey, I like the way that sounds.'

I'm guess you'll vote for G.W. next election? You like America's "Carry a big stcik" philosophy? We're too stupid to think of other alternatives than threatening to nuke Iraq- completely debasing Bush's argument that he wants to 'liberate' Iraqis?

Nah, just vaporize the lucky ones, and let the rest of them rot away from radiation sickness. That's the ticket!

I don't really have the energy, nor do I see the usefulness, in continuing this conversation. It's only going to lead to me getting frustrated, and eventual mudslinging (if it isn't that already?) I hope you can someday adopt a more sensible, and more forgiving worldview. Thanks for the converastion.
Aenimal
Member Rara Avis
since 11-18-2002
Posts 7451
the ass-end of space


123 posted 12-13-2002 04:09 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

TOOL, Radiohead, Queen Adreena, Nine Inch Nails, Smashing Pumpkins, Beatles, John Lennon, U2, Doors, Blind Melon are just some of my favourites but then I have 200 or so cds and love a wide range of music. For Lyrical content and inspiration check any of the bands above!
Jaime
Unregistered


the ass-end of space


124 posted 12-13-2002 05:23 PM       Edit/Delete Message     View IP for Jaime

quote:
Mind over matter. Nothing is beyond your control when it comes your body. They are excuses, totally excuses. "I was depressed", Cry me a river. Then build a bridge and get over it. Either deal with your depression and thrive in it(like I do) or get rid of it. You control your own fate, not a chemical inbalance in the brain(I still don't think depression is caused by this, though).


I definately agree that you have a choice, but when you HAVE depression (and are not simply depressed) your mentality is not stable enough to necessarily make a "good" decision. There are plenty of hormones that effect the psychological health of those who have an imbalance. An imbalance of melatonin can result in SAD. That's just an example.

I am very strongly against the "victim mentality" and will be the first to say something if someone is taking on that perspective... but not all those who are "depressed" or even depressed are whiny, little brats blaming everyone but themselves. Some people actually fight... and they don't need excuses or justification.

Life is where you look for it.

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