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Passions in Poetry

Music?

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brian madden
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75 posted 12-08-2002 03:44 PM       View Profile for brian madden   Email brian madden   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for brian madden

Poetic Justice, I disagree with your comments about rap being the simplest form.
Why is it? because the music is often made of samples, no "real" instruments are used, what about techno music? Often has no lyrics, surely that is simpler.
Like all forms of music there is alof bad rap out there, i am no expert on rap it is not really to my taste expect for Public Enemy and The Roots.

"Sure, parents thought Elvis and The Beatles to be terrible... But it's totally different. Did the Beatles ever sing about killing themselves or killing other people"

Charles Manson thought they did.


"]They can't be angst ridden teens, so they are obviously targetting those kids on purpose. And I agree about the lack of depth involved. How does sayinghow angry you are and going "ahhhhhh" every now and then make you deep"

This I agree with, it does annoy me how these bands fake their angst, ok most of the music i listen to is angst ridden, but you could hardly say that Nick Cave and Leonard Cohen are wallowing in self loathing.

Jamie what you said about rap is a mistake generalisation, what about some white hard rock bands? the same glorifaction of sex, violence and drugs can be found in their lyrics too. As i said my knowledge of rock is limited but many artists do come from crime ridden places and are reflecting the reality of their lifes.
I mean what message does the Kurt Cobain t-shirt "I hate myself and I want to die" send out to the teens of today? Its all relative.






I used to make phantoms I could later chase images of all that could be desired then I got tired of counting all of these blessings"h.devoto magazine

[This message has been edited by brian madden (12-08-2002 04:03 PM).]

Jaime
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ireland


76 posted 12-08-2002 03:56 PM       Edit/Delete Message     View IP for Jaime

Brian - You're right. I was being general about rap music that I hear/see on BET or on the radio or whatever being about the same types of things. I had a boyfriend that was obsessed with DMX at one point so I bought the cd and every song on there was about gangster life. Now sure, I liked it, but when I was saying that I wish they'd write about more than just that -  it's being general because not all rap artists are the same and it was also me commenting on society. I was sticking to the subject of rap since that's what I was talking about in the first place, but you're absolutely right about rock bands and such sending out the same messages but in different ways.

I don't think I've heard very much of a Perfect Circle. Would anyone mind refreshing my memory? I'm sure that I've heard their songs somewhere. (I don't listen to the radio) What are some of their songs?

hush - Thanks for the help. I think I'll go with her first CD. I generally like to start from the beginning, but I wanted to make sure that I wasn't going to pick up a cd I wouldn't get too much out of.




i was here

[This message has been edited by Jaime (12-08-2002 04:11 PM).]

Opeth
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77 posted 12-08-2002 04:00 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Rap is simple with regards to the musical portion of it.

Where are the musicians? The bass lines are as basic as can be. Now with regards to lyrical content, that is a different story and I won't judge the lyrics, I am only judging the music.

Simply put, I can play any rap bass line and I am a novice guitarist. But the music I enjoy the most, it would take a steady dedication to learn how to play it.

Rap is poetry with a beat. It is not music.

[This message has been edited by Opeth (12-08-2002 04:02 PM).]

Red
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78 posted 12-08-2002 04:12 PM       View Profile for Red   Email Red   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Red

ohhhh music, one of my favourite topics



Joni Mitchell
Harry Chapin
Ben Harper
Bob Marley
Jefferson Airplane/Starship
Tool


John Coltrane
Wynton Marsalis

I'm sure there's more, but most of my top ones have already been said!!
brian madden
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ireland


79 posted 12-08-2002 04:14 PM       View Profile for brian madden   Email brian madden   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for brian madden

Opeth,

"Rap is simple with regards to the musical portion of it."

I agree that much of rap's music is simple, but this is due to the fact that there is a large emphasis on the lyrics. Just bceause its simple does not mean its not music. Some punk songs only have three chords, the Velvet Underground used basic structures and chords. Some techno is very basic, often sampling large parts of other dance songs, its still music regardless of the technique or musicanship.
  


I used to make phantoms I could later chase images of all that could be desired then I got tired of counting all of these blessings"h.devoto magazine

Opeth
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80 posted 12-08-2002 04:26 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

When I watch tv shows when Rap groups are featured, all I ever see are about 5 guys, one to two rappers, and a "posse" that stands there looking tough or dancing. In the back is a DJ spinning discs. The musical bass line which provides the beat is recorded.

Whenever I hear rap, it is always the same with regards to rhythm, the only difference comes from the tempo from time to time...

As I said, it is form of poetry with a "beat" behind it. It is not music.

Mozart would roll over in his grave if he knew rap was declared to be music.

I am not putting it down as an art form. It is just not music.
Opeth
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81 posted 12-08-2002 04:29 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

quote:

Some punk songs only have three chords, the Velvet Underground used basic structures and chords. Some techno is very basic, often sampling large parts of other dance songs,



~ However, it is still music, because it is the music that is in the forefront, not just a beat. Personally, I don't like much of that genre of music anyway. It doesn't challenge me. I want to be challenged. I want to learn what I am hearing. That doesn't mean from time to time I don't mind listening to simple songs, but when I do, they must be better than simple crappy music like most of pop music today.


Opeth
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82 posted 12-08-2002 04:32 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

For classical, I recommend:

Tchaikovsky's Sixth Symphony ~ when one can learn the intricacies of this, they would most definitely appreciate it.

For metal, I recommend:

My Arms, Your Hearse by Opeth. Probably one of the most difficult to understand cds that I have ever listened to in this particular genre of music. A masterpiece, indeed.
Local Parasite
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83 posted 12-08-2002 04:33 PM       View Profile for Local Parasite   Email Local Parasite   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Local Parasite's Home Page   View IP for Local Parasite

for metal, my favourite band is still In Flames.  I just can't tear myself away from songs like Bullet Ride.
Red
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84 posted 12-08-2002 04:55 PM       View Profile for Red   Email Red   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Red

"...there exists a  primeval state of music, a state prior to its history, a state before the first questionings, before the first reflections, before the first games with motif and theme.  That primeval state of music (music without thought) mirrors the human being's inherent stupidity.  It required an immense effort of heart and mind for music to rise above that essential stupidity, and it is that splendid arc over centuries of European history which has been extinguished like a skyrocket at the peak of its trajectory.  The history of music is perishable, but the idiocy of guitars is eternal.  Music nowadays has returned to its primeval state.  It is the state after the last questioning, after the last reflection, the state after its history."
--Kundera


Doesn't necessarily reflect my opinion, but I think it definately holds some truth!!!

Rap, good?  Never!! lol

j/k--  I listen to it sometimes even though I have a hard time justifying it as music!
PoeticJustice
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85 posted 12-09-2002 02:49 AM       View Profile for PoeticJustice   Email PoeticJustice   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for PoeticJustice

quote:
Rap is pop and is also not music...it is a form of poetry. So, I agree.


I dunno... I have a hard time considering something someone makes solely for the purpose of gettin richer poetry... Maybe the first stuff that came out back in the 80s, but it's been warped and corrupted so much that it's a shadow of its former self. I guess it could be considered poetry, be-bop(or whatever it's called) the stuff from the 50s that was all free thought and had bongos and saxophones and other jazz instruments backing it up is similar to rap I guess. Except more positive.

quote:
Do you ever listen to the way rap artists use words?


Yes. And they all do it the exact same way with similar themes throughout. Except for the crap Aaron Carter is putting out... Ugh. He's worse than the teeney-bop pop. Not only does he not have any talent, he's only popular because his big brother had no talent.

quote:
On Pink Floyd, I don't know what everyone gets their rocks off on DSOTM- of their three 'big' Albums of that era (The other two being the Wall and Wish you were here) I think it's the weakest. I understand why it's so groundbreaking, but lyrically, I
think it could have had some more development.


Actually, Animals was another big one. Not as big as the other three, it still was very successful. And lyrically? Time rocks. It's about how we take life for granted... And money is about how we take life for granted. And Us & Them is about other stuff... I dunno. I haven't actually sat down and read the lyrics to that one.

quote:
I agree with you that Animals sucked. The concept could have been cool if it didn't fall so weightily within theparameters of cliche (I mean, come on, flying pigs, dogs, sheep....)


But was it really cliche back then? It was based on George Orwell's Animal Farm. Similar themes throughout, and Sheep is one of my theme songs(other one being Comfortably Numb).

quote:
Poetic Justice, I disagree with your comments about rap being the simplest form.
Why is it? because the music is often made of samples, no "real" instruments are used, what about techno music? Often has no lyrics, surely that is simpler.


Whereas techno has synthesized instruments, rap has none, except maybe a bass guitar or drums playing a beat in the background. A techno artist needs to know what notes to put into the computed. I sincerely doubt Snoop Dogg or P. Diddy knows an F sharp from a B flat, or what treble clefs and bass clefs are.

quote:
"Sure, parents thought Elvis and The Beatles to be terrible... But it's totally different. Did the Beatles ever sing about killing themselves or killing other people"

Charles Manson thought they did.


Charles Manson was a lunatic. He saw things that weren't there, whereas it's all too blatant what new "artists"(I say "artists" because splattering paint on the wall isn't art in my book, no matter what modern artists say) say in their lyrics. So, are you saying that anyone who knows what those lyrics are about are mass murderers?

quote:
what you said about rap is a mistake generalisation, what about some white hard rock bands? the same glorifaction
of sex, violence and drugs can be found in their lyrics too.


I have never heard a rock song(with the exception of the new stuff that we're all arguing about) glorifying violence. And I've never heard one come right out and say "drugs are good, do them". Course, I've never listened to a few bands that were notorious for that kind of stuff... Maybe 1% of all rock fits the above criteria. Almost all of rap does.

quote:
I mean what message does the Kurt Cobain t-shirt "I hate myself and I want to die" send out to the teens of today?


He didn't make that, though. Kurt didn't want anything to do with the spotlight, he just wanted to make music(and do drugs) in peace.


Rap is not music. Poetry, maybe. But I sure as hell don't consider it to be. The lyrics are very simple, very easy to come up with. When I first went into High School my friend and I would spend our free time in Physics writing raps. They were kinda cool I guess, but they had no emotional value. I don't see any emotional value in real rap either. Talking about the "gangster life" is all fine and dandy, but they aren't saying they want to get out of it. They're talking about how much weed they smoke and how many hoes they screw and how many cops they bust a cap in. If I had a choice of being able to only listen to rap for the rest of my life, or N'Sync's greatest hits, I'd choose the N'Sync one. Course if that happened the rest of my life would probaby somewhere around seven hours...

And yes, techno is pretty simple a lot of the time. I happen to prefer some of the more complex techno artists(the dance club stuff just doensn't appeal to me), like Digital Droo and Torley Wong.
PoetryIsLife
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86 posted 12-09-2002 04:26 PM       View Profile for PoetryIsLife   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for PoetryIsLife

Being a big fan/admirer/consumer of "rap," this discussion interests me. I'll be back when I can give an in-depth reply.

Also being a fan of rock, techno, celtic, dance, trance, pop, nu-metal, crooners, instrumental, and many others, I can look at this thing from a few pov's. Nifty.

~Titus


"A life unexamined is not worth living."
                       -Socrates

[This message has been edited by PoetryIsLife (12-09-2002 04:27 PM).]

hush
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87 posted 12-09-2002 05:22 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Chrsitpher, I am shaking my head...

That would, of course, be Christopher... I guess I can hardly criticize your musical taste if I can't spell your name legibly, now can I?

Poetic Justice, I'll be back for a more thorough commentary on your last post. No time right now...

[This message has been edited by hush (12-09-2002 05:23 PM).]

PoetryIsLife
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88 posted 12-09-2002 11:11 PM       View Profile for PoetryIsLife   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for PoetryIsLife

Jaime, I won't shake my head at the Eminem reference. Why? He's one of my favorite artists, not for what he says, but how and why he says it. One: he's one of the best 'rap' artists, I feel, to come on the scene in a long while, and two: he doesn't give a damn. People can question his lyrics all they want, but the way he delivers them is superb, to me. You may say "he's too mainstream now," which is true, and for a lot of artists, that's a bad thing. For Eminem, just listen to "Lose Yourself." No gimmicks, just Eminem and his talent, at it's best.

As far as what rap is and what it's not...

"I understand the need to express 'life on the streets' because I'd be pissed off if someone told me I wasn't allowed to write about rape, manic depression, abuse, etc. - but that doesn't mean that you Only go in that direction."

       For many rappers, who are in it for rap itself, for those on the streets, to improve this world before they're done with it, there isn't anything besides the streets. It is the streets. The life. Look at Tupac Shakur, who I believe to be the best rap artist there ever was (many agree with me -- look how many damn albums he's sold -- though album sales aren't a true reflection of talent -- look at those who bought Eminem merely to say what they truly thought of him.)  Tupac was educated, he went to a prestigious school (Baltimore School of the Arts), he knew fine arts, he even wrote poetry:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671028448/qid=1039490676/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/102-5507499-0736940

       He had dreams beyond the ghetto, beyond the streets, but that never meant he was above the streets. His life was the street, but he knew there was more then it.

"Opeth's right in calling it a form of poetry, but I would say it blurs the line between poetry and music- the music works around the word rhythms, rather than the other way around that you often find in rock and pop. "

  "many artists do come from crime ridden places and are reflecting the reality of their lifes. "

"I had a boyfriend that was obsessed with DMX at one point so I bought the cd and every song on there was about gangster life. Now sure, I liked it, but when I was saying that I wish they'd write about more than just that."

       Sometimes, all you can rap about is what is real to you, what is your own personal reality. There may be other realities out there, but if you can't see it as real to you, then it's irrelevant, for some.

"I agree that much of rap's music is simple, but this is due to the fact that there is a large emphasis on the lyrics. Just bceause its simple does not mean its not music. Some punk songs only have three chords, the Velvet Underground used basic structures and chords. Some techno is very basic, often sampling large parts of other dance songs, its still music regardless of the technique or musicanship. "

"As I said, it is form of poetry with a "beat" behind it. It is not music.

Mozart would roll over in his grave if he knew rap was declared to be music.

I am not putting it down as an art form. It is just not music.

it is still music, because it is the music that is in the forefront, not just a beat. "

Music (n.)

1. The art of arraigning sounds in time to produce a composition that elicits an aesthetic response in a listener. 2. Vocal or instrumental sounds having some degree of melody, harmony, or rhythm 3. A musical composition. 4. Aesthetically pleasing or harmonious sound or combination of sounds.

Rap (n)

1. slang A talk or conversation. 2. A form of popular music marked by spoken or chanted rhyming lyrics with a rhythmic accompaniment.

What one sees as music isn't always what others see as music. We all have different point of views. That's the beauty of it all -- there's generally something for everyone.

"Talking about the "gangster life" is all fine and dandy, but they aren't saying they want to get out of it. They're talking about how much weed they smoke and how many hoes they screw and how many cops they bust a cap in."

Why must they say they want to get out of it? That's their life, and it's perfectly fine for them.

I'm done. I don't know if I made any sense. I just wanted to put in a few words.

Sincerely,
Titus

"A life unexamined is not worth living."
                       -Socrates

hush
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89 posted 12-10-2002 11:39 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Poetic Justice-

'I dunno... I have a hard time considering something someone makes solely for the purpose of gettin richer poetry...'

Are rap artists the only musicians who get rich?

To qoute Eminiem: "You best believe somebody's payin' the Pied Piper..."

'Yes. And they all do it the exact same way with similar themes throughout.'

Uh... no? Okay, I can't claim to be any kind of expert on rap, but simply from listening to twenty minutes of the local rap/RB station here, I would definitely say that rap has a lot more diversity in it that alt/rock. Almost everyone who has a guitar right now is so busy whining about how and why life sucks. I can only take so much of that. But different rap artist do delivery lines in different ways, and they do sing about different things. Yes, there are similar themes, but there are similar themes in all music genres, so that's a moot point.

'. And lyrically? Time rocks.'

I agree. Time is one of my favorite Floyd songs. I never said DSOTM is a bad album- it's not. But I don't think it's as consistently strong throughout as the other two I mentioned- I don't like Us & Them, or any song after it, very much.

'I have never heard a rock song(with the exception of the new stuff that we're all arguing about) glorifying violence.'

Um... do you actually ever listen to rock? Ever here that Bad Habit song by the Offspring? What about, um, and Marilyn Manson? ("Let's just kill everyone and let your God sort them out"?) That's not glorifying violence? I could think of more, given time...

'And I've never heard one come right out and say "drugs are good, do them".'

Uh, have you ever been to a concert? Let me cite the bands that I've personally heard openly encourage the crowd to smoke pot:

Live
Fuel
Kid Rock (no surprise)
Counting Crows (would you believe that?)
Uncle Kracker
Local H
Korn

This is considering the limited number of rock concerts I've actually been to.

'The lyrics are very simple, very easy to come up with.'

I don;t think so. I don't think I could come up with rap lyrics, even relatively simple ones about bling-blinging it, let alone more complicated ones (they do exist. I cite Eminem as one example.)

'They were kinda cool I guess, but they had no emotional value. I don't see any emotional value in real rap either. Talking about the "gangster life" is all fine and dandy, but they aren't saying they want to get out of it. They're talking about how much weed they smoke and how many hoes they screw and how many cops they bust a cap in.'

I realize that there is a lot of rap devoted to this- but there's also a lot of rap that isn't. You aren't even taking into account female rap artists. I don't remember the last time I heard Missy Elliot rap aout 'screwing a hoe.' You know, Ani DiFranco incorporates a lot of rap rhythms into her songs- go listen to the track from Living in Clip that combines the poem 'the Slant' and the song 'The Diner.' Or go download her song 'Swing'. Or try (I think her name is) Sarah Jones' 'Your Revolution.' You might be pleasantly surprised by all these.
bsquirrel
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90 posted 12-10-2002 12:41 PM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

Hush, of course KROQ bands are going to do what they can to stay in the spotlight. I have a distaste for all of them.

I'm not going to slap rap -- I love Public Enemy and Grandmaster Flash -- but your citing of "rock" lyrics isn't very applicable to the entire spectrum.

To begin, that Marilyn Manson quote you chose? Is actually a rallying call for a segment of the U.S. military. He's using it as irony. Another song, in a similar vein, goes "Do you love your god? Yeah! Guns? Yeah! Government?"

Another example of his lyrics: "The nervous system's down, the nervous system's down I know. I can never get out of here. I will always just float in fear. A dead astronaut in space."

Marilyn Manson is a master of duality in his music. (Obvious by his name alone) Saying "The nervous system's down" implies the nervous system, and it also implies a machine. To me, that's a little more depth than "Smoke pot."

Also, some of the most poetic, beautiful lyrics I know are in rock.

Radiohead's Pyramid Song: "Jumped in the river. Black-eyed angels swam at me. In a room of stars and astral cars. All the friends I used to see. All my lovers were there with me -- all my past and future. Went to heaven in a little row boat. There's nothing to fear, nothing to doubt."

Nirvana's Heart-Shaped Box: "Cut myself on angel hair and baby's breath."

And that's just sticking to recent examples.

Rock also knows how to poke fun at itself. Witness the dumb (and savage) chorus of Blur's Girls & Boys: "Girls who are boys who like girls to be boys who do boys like they're girls who do girls like they're boys. Always should be someone you really love."

It's up to you to look for something beyond the radio fodder. Otherwise, you're slagging off a whole genre without the proper knowledge of it first.

It's out there.
brian madden
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91 posted 12-10-2002 02:20 PM       View Profile for brian madden   Email brian madden   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for brian madden

First of all to address Poetic Justice’s comments

“I have a hard time considering something someone makes solely for the purpose of gettin richer poetry”

Personally I don’t see how you could feel that rap is made solely for commercial purposes, surely the often explicit language used in some rap songs means that it is going to get limited radio play. If you made this comment about manufactured pop. I could understand. That is something based solely on making money, there is no real artistic merit. Even rap, whatever your stance on it, has artistic merit.

“And they all do it the exact same way with similar themes throughout”
try listening to Public Enemy’s Power to the People


“I sincerely doubt Snoop Dogg or P. Diddy knows an F sharp from a B flat, or what treble clefs and bass clefs are.” First of all P. Diddy is not rap in my mind he is just (c)rap.

MY comments on Charles Manson were to illustrate that people can misinterpret lyrics and find justification for their own actions in the lyrics.

Look at the fact that a senate committee examined Marilyn Manson’s lyrics and a few years later his lyrics were blamed for inspiring the teens who committed the Columbine massacre. It was later revealed that the teens were not even fans of Marilyn Manson.

A lot of rap is very grim, life on the streets is not by any means painted as being appealing.  

Ok some of it like canibus, yes they do glorify drugs, but what about Brown sugar by the rolling stones,
and some of the doors songs. Dandy Warhols are also have a lot of drug references.  

  
“He didn't make that, though. Kurt didn't want anything to do with the spotlight, he just wanted to make music(and do drugs) in peace.”

My point on this was that his suicide has been exploited, that T-shirt helps enforce a certain sense of martyrdom, it could be misinterpreted as a glamorisation of suicide.    

While we are quoting lyrics

"Played by the gate at the foot of the garden
My view stretches out from the fence to the wall
No words could explain, no actions determine
Just watching the trees and the leaves as they fall "

The eternal by JOY DIVISION (Ian Curtis)


  

I used to make phantoms I could later chase images of all that could be desired then I got tired of counting all of these blessings"h.devoto magazine

hush
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92 posted 12-10-2002 05:13 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

BSquirrel-

Marilyn Manson is a master at marketing to people who want to feel justified in hating the world. I don't need a lecture on his  music, believe me, I know it well. I am speaking from the point of view of a former 15-year-old devotee. The only album I don't claim to know well is "Holy Wood," because I thought it was so bad I could barely listen to it. I liked a few songs, but, I mean, Coma Black? That was too much for me.

What segment of the military uses that quote as its rallying call? Curiosities sake...

I read a study once, a few years ago, that cited the sources from which Marylin Manson culls his songs- compiling everything from baselines to lyrics to ideas from movies- I can't remember the web site or anything, and I don't know how many of those hold up because most of the sources were things I wasn't very familiar with, or fit to judge. I thought it was interesting though.

If you want to justify "Irresponsible Hate Anthem," that's fine... because the song was supposed to be a reflection of Floyd's 'In The Flesh' to begin with... fine, I can see it being irony, I can see his intended parallel to 'The Wall,' I can even see the merit in mirroring a classic band's masterpiece, kind of. But you know what, I'm sorry, that album, taken in context, is a rationalization of hatred. You can try to drape it over some societal contextual distortion, but it says what it says. It's a rallying call for people who feel sorry for themselves to turn that self-loathing into something empowering, something they can take out on other people...

"Hey victim, you're the one who put the stick in my hand..."

Once again, though, we're back to the intended irony of that song...

Do you call the entire album sarcasm, though?

And, as far as Mechanical Animals goes... thank you, Marilyn Manson, for being the David bowie of my generation... except he's not as fun about it.

Shock-rock about sums it up when it comes to him...

Do you think I was maligning rock as a genre? Because I wasn't. I was illustrating that, yes, there are rock songs that glorify violence. Yes, rock artists do promote drugs, even if they aren't actively writing about doing drugs. Syd Barret wanted people to listen to his music on LSD...

Pointing out examples of violence and drugs in rock & roll wasn't an attempt on my part to rally against it, but to show both sides of a coin.
PoeticJustice
Junior Member
since 11-29-2002
Posts 44
AK, USA


93 posted 12-11-2002 02:27 AM       View Profile for PoeticJustice   Email PoeticJustice   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for PoeticJustice

Ok first I wanna say that the new Rock you all keep comparing with rap is also something I'm against. I believe I said earlier that they're just exploiting teen angst...

The reason rap artists make rap is because they have no other musical knowledge, and rap is easy to make. Like I said, my friend and I used to rap a lot in class a couple years ago. Think about it, if you don't know guitar, music, or singing, what can you do to enter the music business? You can talk fast about the "street life", put a beat in the background, and call it music. I could put a beat this paragraph and call it music.

And I think Marylin Manson is a necessary part of music. There aren't any controversial icons that piss uber-conservatives off anymore, except him. We need someone to keep authority in check. Marylin Manson is essentially the less talented Ozzy Osbourne of our time.

quote:
Even rap, whatever your stance on it, has artistic merit.


I hate that. These days everyone is into saying everything is art, well it's not. Everything has beauty, but not everything is art. Like I said before about the paint splattering against the wall, that is not art. I could crunch this McDonalds cup up right now and put a bottle cap on top and people would call it art. It's not.

quote:
MY comments on Charles Manson were to illustrate that people can misinterpret lyrics and find justification for their own actions in the lyrics. Look at the fact that a senate committee examined Marilyn Manson’s lyrics and a few years later his lyrics were blamed for
inspiring the teens who committed the Columbine massacre. It was later revealed that the teens were not even fans of Marilyn Manson.


Charles Manson was the only man out of millions who interpreted the music this way.
The Beatles were incredibly popular pop stars in the 60s with trippy and innocent lyrics. Marylin Manson is someone who basks in his controversy and goes out of his way to piss more conservative people off.

I'm not saying that song lyrics affect people's actions. If they do, you're a moron. They tried to blame everything violent on the Columbine shooting, like Doom and other computer games, TV, and songs, while totally disregarding the fact that cruel little monsters were putting the shooters through hell every school day. There is a breaking point, and I personally don't blame the shooters for killing their tormentors. The innocent kids, however, is a different story.

quote:
A lot of rap is very grim, life on the streets is not by any means painted as being appealing.


And instead of being active in trying to fix things, god forbid they do that, they make disgusting amounts of money off of their experiences, or at least stuff they've heard of.

quote:
My point on this was that his suicide has been exploited, that T-shirt helps enforce a certain sense of martyrdom, it could be
misinterpreted as a glamorisation of suicide.


If a shirt makes you kill yourself then maybe the world is a better place without you. I know that sounds harsh, but this is what this incredibly jaded 17 year old thinks.

quote:
"Hey victim, you're the one who put the stick in my hand..."


Hey... I like the way that sounds... So true, too.

quote:
Do you think I was maligning rock as a genre? Because I wasn't. I was illustrating that, yes, there are rock songs that glorify
violence. Yes, rock artists do promote drugs, even if they aren't actively writing about doing drugs. Syd Barret wanted people to listen to his music on LSD...


You also need to realize that back then people didn't know drugs mess you up like they do now. And most of those drugs(with the exception of pot and heroin) were legal at that time.

My theme songs: Comfortably Numb(Pink Floyd) Jaded(Aerosmith) Sheep(Pink Floyd) Dogs(Pink Floyd) Anybody Listening? (Queensryche) I Will Remember (Queensryche)
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


94 posted 12-11-2002 02:44 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

man, Hush... Mechanical Animals was the only Manson album I absolutely dug...

Of course, Ziggy Stardust rocked too... LOL.*rolls eyes*

peace all
hush
Senior Member
since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


95 posted 12-11-2002 10:04 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Poetic justice

'Like I said before about the paint splattering against the wall, that is not art.'

I wouldn't compare rao, as a whole, to 'paint on a wall.' There are lackadasical examples from any music genre- so yes, I'll agree that some examples of rap are bad... and some examples of rock, and some examples of pop, etc. Every genre has its bad apples. But rap requires an understanding of how words go together, of rhythm and flow. Some rap artists (I do emphasize artists) utilize these necessary components better than others.

'There aren't any controversial icons that piss uber-conservatives off anymore, except him. We need someone to keep authority in check.'

Neither does he anymore. His heyday is over.

And why do we need somebody to keep authority in check? Are we, as a populace, so stupid as to hand over our power to some celebrity in hopes that he's going to take care of everything for us by making some fat-cat Christians in Washington mad? Thanks, but no thanks, I can question authority without having to have some icon of hate do it for me.

'while totally disregarding the fact that cruel little monsters were putting the shooters through hell every school day. There is a breaking point, and I personally don't blame the shooters for killing their tormentors.'

You have a lot of growing up to do then. I'm sorry, but making fun of someone shouldn't make you deserving of some nutcase's viglante death penalty. Give me a break.

'If a shirt makes you kill yourself then maybe the world is a better place without you. I know that sounds harsh, but this is what this incredibly jaded 17 year old thinks.'

No, it sound immature. If someone is to that point, anything probably could trigger them. Suicidal music/marketing just might be that trigger. I'm not saying lay the blame on the artist, but saying 'the world is better' without someone is unneccessarily cruel.

'Hey victim, you're the one who put the stick in my hand..."

Hey... I like the way that sounds... So true, too.'

You like the sound of that... so, because we Americans basically trained and armed the Taliban, did we deserve the terrorist attack we got? Do scantily-clad women deserve to be raped? You can't just push the blame from your action off onto the person that you did it to- once again, that's immature and exceedingly irresponsible.

'You also need to realize that back then people didn't know drugs mess you up like they do now. And most of those drugs(with the exception of pot and heroin) were legal at that time.'

That doesn't change the fact that they're still popular, not just with ordinary people, but with celebrities, including musicians from all genres. Didn't you see the Whitney Houston interview the other night?

Chris...

it looks like we're just not going to see eye-to-eye on the music thing now, are we? Oh well...
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


96 posted 12-11-2002 10:58 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

quote:
Do scantily-clad women deserve to be raped?
Absolutely not! (But they better not get mad when I stare! )

And no, it doesn't look like it, but that's cool. I think you're OK... even if you don't have good taste in music!
Allysa
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 5 Tours
Member Elite
since 11-09-1999
Posts 2307
In an upside-down garden


97 posted 12-11-2002 11:36 AM       View Profile for Allysa   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Allysa

I believe it is now time for me to throw in my two cents about this... or I would feel left out and sad.... so here it goes...

Well having  recent conversation w/ my boyfreind's ex-best friend's roomate, I came across a relization.  He said that "The worst artists imitate and the best artists steal".  I believe this was discussed in a New York interview w/ John Lennon, but I'll have to check w/ Doug to be sure...

Anyways, this is relevant to todays music.  Bands like Blink 182, Sum 41, Good Charlotte, Green Day... etc. are trying to slightly imitate the music from the past.  There only motivation, it seems, is money.  

True punk music is not defined as anything, it is whatever people make it to be.  The Sex Pistols were awesome because they were not exactly like anything else.  Punk is so diverse that it would be a shame to throw it in a some category to be shared with such above mentioned (Sum 41, Simple Plan, etc.) pop rock bands.  The Ramones never cease to amaze me.  Over the past year my collection of their music has grown from simply having the anthology, to possesing Ramones Mania, and several other cds, all of which I find to be incredibly wonderful.

But punk isn't limited to the sounds of the past.  There are plenty of OUTSTANDING punk bands still around today... WIZO, a german punk band is an excellent example.  I urge anyone interested in this music to download some WIZO (I highly suspect it would be difficult to find some of their cds due to them only being made in Germany, I think).  Quadrat Im Kries (I think I got the spelling right) is an excellent song, as are Tod im Freidbad (another, I think I got the spelling right, if not I apologize..) while I have to say that the only tolerable Blink song is Carousel.  

Another question brought to my mind... What the heck i  It seems as if it is only Blink minus one member... Same style, same tunes, two out of three of the same members... Did Blink realize they were sell outs and decide to attempt to make even more money by short-sheeting the impressionable youth of America?  Maybe its just me.

Today's good punk bands do exactly as mentioned in first paragraph.  They steal SOME ideas (not all, not most, just some) from the pastmasters, and use it to better there music... Another great band that I can think of is Primus.  For anyone who hasn't heard Primus, it's great... You should check it out.  They have excellent bass lines.  There is so much more to the music world than simply crappy pop-rock "I wanna be punk" bands out there... you just have to look a little harder to find it.

"Wie ein Quadrat in einem Kreis, eck' ich immer wieder an obwohl ich doch schon lange weiß, daß ich niemals ändern kann." ~Wizo

Allysa
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 5 Tours
Member Elite
since 11-09-1999
Posts 2307
In an upside-down garden


98 posted 12-11-2002 11:41 AM       View Profile for Allysa   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Allysa

I believe it is now time for me to throw in my two cents about this... or I would feel left out and sad.... so here it goes...

Well having  recent conversation w/ my boyfreind's ex-best friend's roomate, I came across a relization.  He said that "The worst artists imitate and the best artists steal".  I believe this was discussed in a New York interview w/ John Lennon, but I'll have to check w/ Doug to be sure...

Anyways, this is relevant to todays music.  Bands like Blink 182, Sum 41, Good Charlotte, Green Day... etc. are trying to slightly imitate the music from the past.  There only motivation, it seems, is money.  

True punk music is not defined as anything, it is whatever people make it to be.  The Sex Pistols were awesome because they were not exactly like anything else.  Punk is so diverse that it would be a shame to throw it in a some category to be shared with such above mentioned (Sum 41, Simple Plan, etc.) pop rock bands.  The Ramones never cease to amaze me.  Over the past year my collection of their music has grown from simply having the anthology, to possesing Ramones Mania, and several other cds, all of which I find to be incredibly wonderful.

But punk isn't limited to the sounds of the past.  There are plenty of OUTSTANDING punk bands still around today... WIZO, a german punk band is an excellent example.  I urge anyone interested in this music to download some WIZO (I highly suspect it would be difficult to find some of their cds due to them only being made in Germany, I think).  Quadrat Im Kries (I think I got the spelling right) is an excellent song, as are Tod im Freidbad (another, I think I got the spelling right, if not I apologize..) while I have to say that the only tolerable Blink song is Carousel.  

Another question brought to my mind... What the heck i  It seems as if it is only Blink minus one member... Same style, same tunes, two out of three of the same members... Did Blink realize they were sell outs and decide to attempt to make even more money by short-sheeting the impressionable youth of America?  Maybe its just me.

Today's good punk bands do exactly as mentioned in first paragraph.  They steal SOME ideas (not all, not most, just some) from the pastmasters, and use it to better there music... Another great band that I can think of is Primus.  For anyone who hasn't heard Primus, it's great... You should check it out.  They have excellent bass lines.  There is so much more to the music world than simply crappy pop-rock "I wanna be punk" bands out there... you just have to look a little harder to find it.

Local Parasite
Deputy Moderator 10 Tours
Member Elite
since 11-05-2001
Posts 2929
Transylconia, Winnipeg


99 posted 12-11-2002 04:00 PM       View Profile for Local Parasite   Email Local Parasite   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Local Parasite's Home Page   View IP for Local Parasite

I have a feeling Allysa might be a punk fan...
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