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Passions in Poetry

Why Bump at all?

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Kielo
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since 02-11-2002
Posts 1259


25 posted 09-14-2002 01:09 AM       View Profile for Kielo   Email Kielo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kielo

*dances* I scared them all away!
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


26 posted 09-14-2002 01:11 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

oh yeah?



Just look under your bed!

BOO!



and now? I think I DO need to go to sleep, can someone read some Poe to me? It's so soothing...
Kielo
Senior Member
since 02-11-2002
Posts 1259


27 posted 09-14-2002 01:15 AM       View Profile for Kielo   Email Kielo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kielo

*screams* AH! That is not funny! *stifles a laugh* You're older than me. Old people are scary enough without going boo. Don't do that to me.

*looks frantically for copy of The Raven* Its in my binder, and I'm too lazy to type it. Sorry.

[This message has been edited by Kielo (09-14-2002 01:16 AM).]

Larry C
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Patricius
since 09-10-2001
Posts 10765
United States


28 posted 09-14-2002 01:19 AM       View Profile for Larry C   Email Larry C   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Larry C's Home Page   View IP for Larry C

Am I getting this right? If your poem falls to the bottom you want everybodies to fall to the bottom?

Hope I don't get my hands slapped, but I would like to quote Ron on this subject. It is taken from the following thread:
peeved at multiple posters...numbers game


===================================
Ron Quote:
People come to pipTalk for a lot of different reasons, and I've always said that every single one of those reasons is valid. There is NOTHING wrong with coming here just to get attention for your writing. If that's the only reason they stay, however, they probably won't stay long. There are tons and tons and tons of people reading poetry here, probably more than anyone realizes, but relatively few who habitually respond to what they read. The Open forum is like buying a magazine at the newsstand, and every time you open it up it has magically updated to a new issue. There's nothing wrong with wanting your poem to be in two or three consecutive issues of the magazine. That's human nature. It only becomes wrong when you are willing to sacrifice someone else's spot to do it.

There are many different reasons people come to pipTalk and all of them are valid, but I'm going to be honest and admit the software is designed to reward and entice those who want to learn. If your poetry doesn't get the response you think it should, maybe it's time to assume some responsibility for that instead of looking for someone else to blame. Are you targeting a wide audience or a very narrow one? Did you say something new or simply repeat the same tired cliches? Are you being too obscure or too transparent? Did you choose a hard-to-read font or make other presentation decisions that overshadow the poem? Did you check your spelling or even read what you just typed before posting it? If you really want a lot of replies, go find the poetry that gets a lot replies and figure out what they did that you don't do. Learn!

Please note that I am NOT suggesting everyone should write for a wider audience or only post poetry about unusual or even arcane themes. You don't have to use mixed case if you don't want to (thanks to e.e. cummings) and you don't even have to worry about spelling. Those are all individual decisions that each poet has to make for themselves. But they also have to realize that those ARE their individual decisions, as are ALL the other things that determines how many replies they get. I'm not saying you have to change your decisions. I'm just saying, until you accept responsibility for them, you don't even have the choice.

A poem is a child of the heart, and it's normal we'd want our children to fare well. But once they leave the nest, they have to rise or fall on their own merit. The parent has done all they can for that child, and at best can only vow to do better with the next.
========================================

If tears could build a stairway and memories a lane, I'd walk right up to heaven and bring you home again.

[This message has been edited by Larry C (09-14-2002 01:20 AM).]

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


29 posted 09-14-2002 02:37 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Actually, Larry, I rather strongly suspect it was that thread which prompted Tim to start this one.

And his idea is not entirely without merit. One has to remember that the software was designed for discussions, not poetry. That's why the un-bump was disabled in the Discussion forums, because it makes eminent sense to send a thread back to the top when someone replies to it. Active discussions are easy to find, and resolved discussions fall into the background. Poetry, on the other hand, has no resolution, no final word, and a poem from six months ago is as alive and vital as one posted today. Coincidentally enough, poetry on the main site remains chronologically ordered in spite of votes or comments by the visitors, much as Tim is suggesting here. It doesn't seem to keep people from reading.

One might assume the only reason to bump a poem, if it's not because other poems have been resolved, is to keep the "best" poetry easily available. Tim's idea has merit, but ONLY if we agree with his contention that the number of replies is not an indicator of quality. Failing that agreement, the idea becomes literary communism, a way of reducing everyone to the lowest level. Did I just hear Ayn Rand roll over in her grave?  

Of course, quality is such a nasty word to try to define. I got an email from someone tonight who insisted their poetry was good because it rhymed, unlike that blank verse stuff others are always posting. Maybe that wasn't Rand I heard, but Shakespeare? Still, for the sake of argument, let's agree for a moment that the poetry that gets the most replies "connects with people" more than poems that get fewer replies. The connection might be because of quality, or a reflection of the audience (Mary Had A Little Lamb is a huge hit in some circles), or because of theme, or maybe even just the result of a popularity contest. We still don't know what we're measuring, but at least we have something to measure. Unfortunately, I can't describe this thing we're measuring as "connectiveness," so I'm going to just stick with "best" for the rest of this post and y'all will know I mean "connects with the most people." Okay?

Given that poetry with a lot of replies is the "best" under our new definition, does it make sense to bump it to the top of the page? In the short term, I think it does. It's essentially little more than a pat on the back, and if we place value on poetry that connects with people, then, yea, it deserves the accolades. I'll admit that if "connectiveness" is something you personally don't value, that position is a little harder to defend. Quick, what's the most watched show on NBS? I can guarantee you I don't watch it. The qualities that make a television show popular are generally not qualities that interest me. In spite of that, though, I have to recognize that a super-popular TV show has realized the goal it set for itself and should, for example, be able to charge more for its advertising time. It deserves the accolades it has won. If I feel strongly enough that the qualities it presents shouldn't be popular, my only real recourse is to more actively support those I think do present more suitable qualities.

In the long term, I'm not so sure bumping accomplishes even that much. It does NOT keep the "best" poetry easily available as we might have hoped, but only keeps the most recent "best" poetry available. Some of our most memorable work languishes in the Archives, mostly forgotten, and certainly not readily found. Perhaps if we had a better way to reward "connectiveness" that might not be true?

Ah, well, it's late and I'm mostly thinking out loud. Maybe I just want to prove I can get the last word on Karen? (Not that I will, I know.) At any rate, I think Tim's idea is worth some thought.
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


30 posted 09-14-2002 02:54 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

(see? I didn't say a thing...)

yuk*yuk
Larry C
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Patricius
since 09-10-2001
Posts 10765
United States


31 posted 09-14-2002 03:12 AM       View Profile for Larry C   Email Larry C   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Larry C's Home Page   View IP for Larry C

And I said too much.


[This message has been edited by Larry C (09-14-2002 03:16 AM).]

Nan
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Member Seraphic
since 05-20-99
Posts 24426
Cape Cod Massachusetts USA


32 posted 09-14-2002 08:49 AM       View Profile for Nan   Email Nan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nan's Home Page   View IP for Nan

I'll do the bump with you guys any time... Especially for your 'NOT' bad poetry.. or your silly antics..
Sunshine
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Member Caelestus
since 06-25-99
Posts 67715
Listening to every heart


33 posted 09-14-2002 09:18 AM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Sheesh.  And I rely on the "bumping by others" especially in Open to help me keep UP with the poems....

I have come to appreciate the "non-bump by poet in response to responses" much more than I thought I would.  Originally, I had wanted to let others know that I came in to say "thank you" but the blue folder does that trick.  

I see Tim's point, even through the giggles...

I'm still trying to figure out where to find NBS...

and I don't think I would ever go so far to say "my poetry is SO good..." because I write for myself...and I love to share.  If by sharing someone comes by, reads, and enjoys...and leaves a response...that is truly their right to do so, as provided for by Ron.  And if they say they think whatever I have written is good...I truly hope they do so because (1) they believe it to be so, and (2) because what they just read moved them to do so.

Sometimes...I have received a personal e-mail from someone who was too shy to leave their true feelings on a post...

and those e-mails?  Are s
Tim
Senior Member
since 06-08-99
Posts 1801


34 posted 09-14-2002 11:00 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

I had started to include Ron's quote to begin my discussion.  I readily agree, that if the reason poetry stays at the top is because it is the best poetry, then bump away.  If poetry is best because it connects with someone, then bump away.  If poetry connects with someone because of who the someone was who wrote the poetry, then bumping was not productive to producing quality poetry.  I fully realize it is Passionate heresy to demean poets or their poetry.  I have no intention or desire to do so. My opinion is that the quality of the poetry in Passions is not at the level it has been in the past. Poets who I enjoyed reading have left because they did not fit into the social structure. Most generally, these have been the poets I would consider the more technically able writers.  Why is that?  Passions contains a wide spectrum of poets.  That is its strength. I would prefer it appealled to the entire spectrum.  It is inconsistent to say you do not post to get replies and then ruffle your feathers when a system is suggested that might lessen your replies.  If the idea of the forums is to get the most replies, then by all means continue on in the same fashion. I have no problem with the procedure, just admit what the system is set up to do and everyone will live happily ever after.  In all honesty, I feel the present system has to continue because that is why the forums primarily exist, to provide social interaction. (Ron scared the living bejeebers out of me suggesting I had communistic leanings)

[This message has been edited by Tim (09-14-2002 11:06 AM).]

Poet deVine
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since 05-26-99
Posts 25869
Hurricane Alley


35 posted 09-14-2002 11:11 AM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

You make a lot of sense Tim. Have you ever visted the Sanctuary?
Sunshine
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Member Caelestus
since 06-25-99
Posts 67715
Listening to every heart


36 posted 09-14-2002 11:39 AM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine


Tim, FYI...your name doesn't appear near often enough ...we could use some more of you...
Janet Marie
Member Laureate
since 01-22-2000
Posts 18986


37 posted 09-14-2002 12:10 PM       View Profile for Janet Marie   Email Janet Marie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Janet Marie

This is very interesting to me...the idea of no bumping at all...but before I add to the discussion...Tim?...I have a couple questions if you dont mind indulging me? I am always trying to understand all sides of this debate, as it seems to often be at the heart of the forums interaction...and also often the reason many lose interest or leave.

quote:
I will, however, admit frustration realizing that if I post a poem I write with no thought, just typing whatever comes into my head within a matter of minutes, I stand as good of chance of receiving the same number of replies as to the poems I have worked days if not weeks writing.


may I ask why you believe that is?
and my second question...

quote:
I think I have the intellect to figure out what it takes to obtain larger numbers of replies and have no desire in that regard.


What is it that you that have no desire to do and why not? Thanks for helping my dense mothy mind understand

bsquirrel
Deputy Moderator 5 Tours
Member Rara Avis
since 01-03-2000
Posts 8382


38 posted 09-14-2002 05:46 PM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

The problem with no bumping is that, unless you're going to post to a quieter forum than Open, you are going to disappear. Even if you have a lot of numbers from people gracious enough to find your post in the jungle? Still gonna disappear.

If people want to write a reply that says simply "Bump," that's their business. But almost always, the replies I get are from people who want to know more about the poem, or about the poet.

There's a great place to read poetry where you'll never have to worry about bumps: a library. And if you talk to loud, the librarian will gladly shush you, so no worries about unwarranted discussion, either.

I like it fine the way it is -- that others can bump you;  you just can't bump yourself.

Mike
Sunshine
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since 06-25-99
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39 posted 09-14-2002 06:03 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine


But, but, Mikey?  Will I find YOUR work in the library?  Tim's?  Serenity's?  A whole host of my other favorite poets from here at Passions????   What, not yet?  Well until then...I shall look for you here, and by gosh and by golly...if I think that your poem[s] haven't been read enough because the boards are moving by at a rate too fast for the masses, then BA-Dah-BUMP you I shall!  And if I don't do it, my sisters shall!!!  ROTF...
Tim
Senior Member
since 06-08-99
Posts 1801


40 posted 09-15-2002 12:28 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

Janet Marie, a review of bsquirrels and LarryCs responses sets out my position far better than I could possibly present it.  


[This message has been edited by Tim (09-15-2002 04:06 AM).]

Janet Marie
Member Laureate
since 01-22-2000
Posts 18986


41 posted 09-15-2002 08:33 AM       View Profile for Janet Marie   Email Janet Marie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Janet Marie

Forgive me...it was not my intention to make you feel "put you on the spot." I was trying to be clear on your position about replies and participation in the forums. I dont like to assume things in other peoples words, as I am usually wrong.
thank you for your time,
jm

Tim
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since 06-08-99
Posts 1801


42 posted 09-15-2002 10:42 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

Not at all Janet Marie (being put on the spot) I appreciate your sincerity.  Hopefully my email answered your questions.
bsquirrel
Deputy Moderator 5 Tours
Member Rara Avis
since 01-03-2000
Posts 8382


43 posted 09-15-2002 03:15 PM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

Cool,
things are being read into my response
that I didn't intend!

Just like poetry! ( )

bu.m.p

And Sunshine -- I thank you for your undusting duties.

me
Tim
Senior Member
since 06-08-99
Posts 1801


44 posted 09-15-2002 11:14 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

Mr. bsquirrel...
I apologize if I misinterpreted your response.  I took it to mean you want your poetry to stay on the first page and if someone wants to bump your poetry for whatever reason, so be it. As an aside, I do occasionally go the library, I even have a library card.
bsquirrel
Deputy Moderator 5 Tours
Member Rara Avis
since 01-03-2000
Posts 8382


45 posted 09-16-2002 03:10 PM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

Tim,
Perhaps it is just due to online communication
leaving so much body language and tone of voice out,
but your original reply seemed smarmy to me.
I didn't understand why,
since we neither of us know each other.
If you ever want to e-mail me,
my box is always open.
And if you ever want me to read one of your poems,
just ask.
And I shall.
Here's the thing though --
I only respond if it's something I like.
So, in that way, I do not "bump"
those I find I won't read again.
I just like to say thanks
to those who do touch me.

And as a p.s.,
I am hardly the most popular poet here.
But I do not let it anger me or confuse me --
I used to, back when I was awful
(hence Insubordinate eyes).
I no longer go by numbers.
I go by those who keep coming back,
to just say "hi" again,
those who read me.
Those whom I call my friends.

And it's not a scratch-my-back type deal.
Usually, it's a "Hi."
And if I see something I like by them
on the page,
I will read it.
If not,
I won't go searching.

It's not an issue at all.
I'm used to the outside.
I am the outside.

Mike
(e me)
Tim
Senior Member
since 06-08-99
Posts 1801


46 posted 09-16-2002 11:33 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

I appreciate your reply.  It has been my experience that people generally hear what they want to hear, that is just human nature. I am just as guilty as anyone. Just to clarify, I am not asking you to read or reply to my poetry. I am not asking anyone to do so.  Not attempting to be cute here, but if my poetry isn't on page one, that is fine.  I know what it says.  If I wanted replies I would post under Mike or respond more to people's poetry; or email or icq them.  I received more than my fair share of replies when I was more active in the forums.
I receive more than my share now based upon my replies and postings.  I was trying to make a point which I obviously did not do very clearly. I still think the point is valid, you don't. That is life.  I don't intend losing any sleep over it as I suspect you won't either.  I also appreciate the "bumps", but that was not and is not my goal.  Go about your life and I will go about mine and our live's will continue on their merry way.  Take care.


[This message has been edited by Tim (09-16-2002 11:36 PM).]

 
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