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Passions in Poetry

Immoral Love?

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serenity blaze
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0 posted 09-10-2002 03:02 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze


"She" is 37. "He" is 18.

And, there are extenuating circumstances. "His" mother is "Her" former best friend. They were as close as sisters for over a decade, and quite often watched each others children. And? Until they became lovers, "He" referred to "Her" as "aunt." They are now openly a couple, and quite insistant that they have found true love. And? I am friends with ALL of them...Kind of a tricky situation over here...Oh, yes. I forgot to mention, that "she" is also married, and her husband knows about this situation and doesn't seem to mind. Her kids, are a bit confused however, as they grew up, with him being treated as "one of the kids," sitting elbow-to-elbow at the supper table, etc...

sigh...

Opinions, please?
bsquirrel
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1 posted 09-10-2002 03:10 PM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

It sounds like the two perfect ages for a future meltdown and destruction of all they had as friends.

All I can think about is the Lovers. And maybe the Tower? (sheesh I really need to stop writing poetry for a while -- heh heh)

Good luck, to whoever you two are!

Mikey

[This message has been edited by bsquirrel (09-10-2002 03:30 PM).]

Poet deVine
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2 posted 09-10-2002 07:56 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine


Both are legally adults right? And as such, they have the right to love each other.

Immoral? In the eyes of some perhaps.

But in this world, when you find live (and it's not hurtful to anyone) isn't that a GOOD thing?

Are you saying that I can't find love with someone 20 years MY junior? Geez..I've always liked my men younger than I...they have more spirit!
Martie
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3 posted 09-10-2002 09:59 PM       View Profile for Martie   Email Martie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Martie's Home Page   View IP for Martie

In my opinion, love cannot be immoral!  Could go on about what is, but I won't here.
Christopher
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4 posted 09-10-2002 11:10 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

heck no - i hope i can find an 18 year old hottie when i'm 37!!!
catalinamoon
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5 posted 09-11-2002 07:21 PM       View Profile for catalinamoon   Email catalinamoon   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit catalinamoon's Home Page   View IP for catalinamoon

I don't think it's immoral, but it sure is a mess!
Love, if it is real, finds a way. Then again, she might just be infatuated with a young man, and men, well they alays fall for the one who gives them what they haven't had a lot of before .
Sandra
Kielo
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6 posted 09-12-2002 12:47 PM       View Profile for Kielo   Email Kielo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kielo

I'm going to have to disagree with most of the people here. I think if this woman has established a relationship as an aunt, as a parent figure, then it probably is wrong. I also think that the age difference matters, because she will be so much more mature than him, and they are at different stages in their life, which causes complications... believe me, I know. Finally, if none of this seems significant enough to stop the relationship, whatever it may be, something like that can ruin friendships and marriages. It may not have yet, but that doesn't mean it won't happen. I know its tempting to simply say "Oh, well, in our society we believe in freedom, so you can do anything you want," but I believe that there are rules in life, and I believe that sometimes some things are wrong. I believe that if a situation can harm others, it should be avoided.

Allow me to repeat, these are only my beliefs. Please do not be offended if I have stated them rather emphatically...

Kielo
serenity blaze
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7 posted 09-12-2002 01:09 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Kielo? not offended at all...in fact, those are my very qualms...it seems so incenstuous...and the WOMAN is married, and the fact that she has her husbands consent, is my subtle way of hinting at darkly what cannot be said openly. I am all for LOVE--but this--hmmm...I have sat with the boy's mother while she cried--she of course, wanted her son to fall in love with someone appropriate to his age and interests (although I did not say so, I remember 18 year old boys..grin, and that IS his interest) I am completely torn here. And this couple visits with me because I am one of the few that does not express disgust when they are openly affectionate with each other. Conversely, I did ask the woman involved how she would feel if one of her ex husband's friends became lovers with her 17 year old daughter. (Her answer? She hoped he would enjoy it, for the moment would be brief and he would at least die with a happy memory!) and her rationale was simply "but it's DIFFERENT with us..."

And the mother feels that her son is tossing his young years away, and his new girlfriend, is quite possessive of him, and jealous naturally of the younger girls who express interest in him. (a rather humorous scenario was when she answered the door at his apartment to find a fetching young girl there, asking , "Is your son at home?"

So...I dunno...I am just jumping back and forth on this one emotionally? and had taken the "mind yer own business" stance, but they are ALL my friends, and want to talk to ME about it...GROAN.

[This message has been edited by serenity blaze (09-12-2002 01:19 PM).]

Kielo
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8 posted 09-12-2002 07:27 PM       View Profile for Kielo   Email Kielo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kielo

Wow... I really don't know what to say. I think that our society can believe in freedom all it wants, but there have to be rules for us to remain human. If we can walk around falling in love with anyone we want, and no one cares, not even the previous lover of the person we are supposedly in love with... (did that makes sense?) then we'll be as good as animals. Woo hoo, lets run around and get laid!
That would be good for the over-population problem. But I forgot. Everyone would be too busy to care.

Ok, so maybe I'm exaggerating a little. A little.

Serenity, you have my sympathy, but being only 15, I don't know how reliable my advice is... I would suggest picking a side, because even if it ruins the friendship, at least you don't have to worry about whether or not you're on a side, or being stuck in the middle. At the same time, if it would be easier for you personally to stick in the middle until the whole thing goes away, if it ever does, then do that. It really depends, person to person. So honestly? I am as confused as I've ever been on what to say.

I sincerely hope you manage to figure something out.

Kielo
Poet deVine
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9 posted 09-12-2002 08:19 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

There is a world of difference between falling in love and just getting laid!
Kielo
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10 posted 09-12-2002 08:42 PM       View Profile for Kielo   Email Kielo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kielo

I know, but that difference can erode, over time. Very like the theory of evolution, actually. Look how rules have changed, even in the last century. Just my own opinion.

Kielo
Christopher
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11 posted 09-12-2002 09:31 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

quote:
There is a world of difference between falling in love and just getting laid!
...not when you're 18 sharon.
serenity blaze
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12 posted 09-12-2002 11:51 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Thank you Christopher...my point exactly.

again, I told my friend, "you are going to hurt this boy..." and yes, I say boy, and I CAN, because I know him. And she said, I will be the one left behind--this time? I'm the fool..."

so...dunno...
Kielo
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13 posted 09-13-2002 01:56 AM       View Profile for Kielo   Email Kielo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kielo

I was talking to Titus today, and he said the following:

"To me, love has almost nothing to do with sexuality... or, sex, I should put it more correctly. Love is... much, much more. Love isn't neccessarily a feeling, it's an action, a self-sacrificial looking out for the other, no matter what. Sex, and the joys of that, are meant as a blessing of the covenant of marraige, that's how God designed it. It's not the reason for love, or the birth of it."

I liked it, I thought it was relevant, so I got his permission to quote him, and posted it.

Kielo

[This message has been edited by Kielo (09-13-2002 02:03 AM).]

serenity blaze
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14 posted 09-13-2002 02:00 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze




er...TITUS?

just how what IS your age???

Kielo
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15 posted 09-13-2002 02:14 AM       View Profile for Kielo   Email Kielo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kielo

What? My age, or Titus' age? I'm 15.
serenity blaze
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16 posted 09-13-2002 02:22 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

smiling...both of you show wisdom, my new friends...

I thank you.
Kielo
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17 posted 09-13-2002 02:23 AM       View Profile for Kielo   Email Kielo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kielo

Titus... PoetryIsLife... You know Titus, right? *is worried* Seriously... how can you not know Titus?

[This message has been edited by Kielo (09-13-2002 02:23 AM).]

serenity blaze
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18 posted 09-13-2002 02:27 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

not to worry...if to read his poetry is to know him, then I have...

impressive, too!
Kielo
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19 posted 09-13-2002 02:31 AM       View Profile for Kielo   Email Kielo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kielo

*nods* Ok. I meant know of him, I guess. It was just foreign to me that someone on this site could not know who Titus is
Midnitesun
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20 posted 09-13-2002 02:34 AM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

If it is really love, how can it be immoral? But it really just sounds like a lusty sexual escapade to me, one that appears to be hurting most everyone else.
Bad idea, mommy. Really, really bad idea.
But in fact, I like younger men.
Is it immoral for someone over 50 (yikes!) to have an affair with someone under 30?
Kielo
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21 posted 09-13-2002 02:37 AM       View Profile for Kielo   Email Kielo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kielo

I think any affair is immoral, no matter what anyone else thinks of it. The point of marriage is to attach yourself to one person for life. Of course, take into consideration that I'm only 15, so most of my ideas are idealistic. (That's the word I wanted, right?)
Trevor
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22 posted 09-13-2002 02:43 AM       View Profile for Trevor   Email Trevor   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Trevor

Hello all,

I'm gonna have to side with Martie, love isn't immoral, in fact I'd say that immoral love is an oxymoron. If what to people are doing is immoral that it ain't love but is probably a close relative like lust or greed. I also think that even when two people are in love that even though their love is not immoral, the relationship may be immoral or unethical. I don't think I would date one of my mother's friends even if I was in love, not because of an age difference, I have no quams whatsoever about that, but rather because I think it would bother my mother deeply. The love I would have wouldn't be immoral but the relationship could probably be labelled as unethical. Now look at the story Lolita...I forget the character's names but the older guy might have been in love with her but there is a case where I think the relationship would be immoral. Why, because a relationship usually deals with more than just love but sex as well...which can often be an extention of love but not necessarily always the case. It may not be immoral to love a parent's best friend, but it may be unethical to sleep with them. It may not be immoral to love a 16 year old, but it is most likely immoral to sleep with them.

Then you get into what type of love, is there more than one kind of love or just more than one way to express it? You can love your parents when you're 18 and they're 45. Is that immoral, no of course not, but it would be to have sex with your parents...but I think its safe to say the vast majority of 18 yr olds don't want to sleep with their parents. If this is true than I think its somewhat accurate to say that a person of the age of 18 can love and does know love without it actually having to equate to a sexual thing.  
A really good book to read on the subject that covers a lot of different points of view on love is "The Synposium"...I think it was Aristotle's interpretation of a Plato's discussion with some peers...I could be wrong, been a while since I read it but I'm pretty sure that was the book.

Chris:


"There is a world of difference between falling in love and just getting laid!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...not when you're 18 sharon."

Okay, I'll bite, if not at 18 then when can one fall in love without it just being getting laid? 19? 20? 21? Does that just apply to guys or does it include women as well? Just thought I'd throw that out in the open.


Mikey:

"It sounds like the two perfect ages for a future meltdown and destruction of all they had as friends."

I can't tell if you're describing that particular relationship or all of them in general  


Keilo:

"I think any affair is immoral, no matter what anyone else thinks of it. The point of marriage is to attach yourself to one person for life."

I think the point of marriage differs quite a bit. Some marry for love, some for sex, some money, greed and so on. Marriage, unfotunately, isn't always about love. Also, is it really an affair if the husband is consenting? What about in a situation where a spouse is "trapped" in an abusive relationship...would it be immoral to have an affair then? I dunno, just something to think about.
I guess that's about all I can offer to this discussion, thanks everyone,

Trevor

[This message has been edited by Trevor (09-13-2002 02:48 AM).]

Kielo
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23 posted 09-13-2002 02:52 AM       View Profile for Kielo   Email Kielo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kielo

Trevor, I have only one major problem with what you said. There is really no comparison between sleeping with your parents, and the situation serenity described. There are several different kinds of love. I love my parents, but when I'm married, the love I have for my husband will be a very different kind of love. Will it still be love? Yes. I love my friends. Is that the same love I have for my parents? No. Is it still love? Yes. What Serenity has described is two people who say they love each other in the manner of husband and wife, or whatever it is called now.

I think that loving someone in that way invariably leads to lust, and lust is not far from sleeping with them anyway. Just because you love them but don't sleep with them doesn't mean you don't fantasize. I'm not saying all people do, but I'm willing to bet most do, if not everyone.

Just because they don't marry for love doesn't make it right. And yes, I do believe it is still wrong if the husband is consenting. A commitment is a commitment. If the two don't love each other, they shouldn't have married in the first place. Raising the point of an abusive relationship is interesting. I would say that an affair is still wrong, but divorce is not.

Again, just all my own opinion.

[This message has been edited by Kielo (09-13-2002 02:56 AM).]

Larry C
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24 posted 09-13-2002 02:52 AM       View Profile for Larry C   Email Larry C   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Larry C's Home Page   View IP for Larry C

Personally if morality is a matter of opinion and what feels good then it's no wonder the world is in trouble. I'll settle for God's guidelines as my moral compass. Which leaves this whole thing pretty messy, as if that weren't obvious.

If tears could build a stairway and memories a lane, I'd walk right up to heaven and bring you home again.

 
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