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Passions in Poetry

is it realistic...

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Temptress
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0 posted 07-17-2002 03:53 AM       View Profile for Temptress   Email Temptress   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Temptress

...not to expect arguments in a new relationship?
And..if you've been talking to someone for a long time, but haven't been togther with them, is it natural to have arguments..even over the most stupid things?

Is there a way to end the arguments over the silly things or do the silly things really matter...being that they often are included in the "little" things that are supposed to be important.

If you're not "together" and you're already arguing, does this doom any future relationship between the two of you to failure before it starts?

Just wondering what everyone's thoughts are on this.

*Jenn*

I will not bend to the cowardice of a silent judgement.

nakdthoughts
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1 posted 07-17-2002 06:16 AM       View Profile for nakdthoughts   Email nakdthoughts   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for nakdthoughts

my thoughts are, if you are arguing before being together, what makes you think you won't have more or larger fights later....if you love someone, should being happy be so hard...as far as little things go, they must be important  enough to you if you are arguing about them and I think it's the little things that make a relationship work...believe me, I have had my share of feeling dismayed and sometimes wonder why a person needs to try so hard at love.

[This message has been edited by nakdthoughts (07-17-2002 10:21 AM).]

Opeth
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2 posted 07-17-2002 08:25 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth


"...not to expect arguments in a new relationship?

And..if you've been talking to someone for a long time, but haven't been togther with them, is it natural to have arguments..even over the most stupid things?"


~ I am unclear on whether or not you have met the person in person or has the new relationship been a distant relationship only? In my opinion, if you one argues with a person in a relationship where neither have actually met each other yet, then the relationship does not have much of a chance to blossom. With that statement, however, comes the question of just what is one looking for in any relationship to begin with...

"Is there a way to end the arguments over the silly things or do the silly things really matter...being that they often are included in the "little" things that are supposed to be important."


~ I believe so. The little or silly things are as important as what one makes them to be. It only takes one of two involved think with reason and logic and realize "this is silly" or "this whole thing is stupid" and then laugh about it and be playful with the other person involved.  That works. I know from experience (over 20+ years).

"If you're not "together" and you're already arguing, does this doom any future relationship between the two of you to failure before it starts?"


~ Not a good sign, indeed. If two people haven't even met (I assume that is what you mean by not being together) and are arguing, I wouldn't "throw in the towel" but I would proceed with much caution.  Again, what type of a relationship is one looking for has alot to do with any answer given.

Good luck.
Sudhir Iyer
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3 posted 07-17-2002 09:01 AM       View Profile for Sudhir Iyer   Email Sudhir Iyer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Sudhir Iyer

depends on what kind of arguments...

I think silly arguments over silly things are a rather positive thing to happen in a relationship...

as about arguments before a relationship, what kind of relationhip... you see, good friends argue a lot...

one of my best friends started about arguing with each other about something that was very personal to my friend. within weeks though, we saw each other's points and the rest is history...

but love, relationships etc... there are no definite rules for that... some relationships thrive on arguments and the passion of heated discussion, because there you are atleast honest in your needs and reasonings, and the best part of arguments is once the heat of the argument is passed, there is a period for remorse... and that perhaps has the power to even bring enemies together... come on, if you don't argue with the one that you trust, who else do you have a chance to do it with... those who don't argue with you don't listen to what you say and those who don't listen to you wouldn't care less... ya, I know I am strange... but then

but silly things do matter, little or more... because silly things are also some of the most sensitive things... like the shape of someone's toothbrush or colour of socks/comb or keeping wallet in the back pocket or front pocket etc...

anyway... there I have spent some of my eurocents

regards,
Sudhir
P.S. whatever we all say, you have to decide for yourself, what is your best way to walk...  

[This message has been edited by Sudhir Iyer (07-17-2002 09:04 AM).]

Temptress
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4 posted 07-17-2002 03:36 PM       View Profile for Temptress   Email Temptress   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Temptress

Perhaps its not the arguing which could damage the situation, but the way the arguements are handled as far as how they are discussed? Does that make sense? I mean, arguments are realistically going to happen, but is it a better thing to learn to discuss and argue without letting our tempers and pride get the best of us? Tempers and pride make us stubborn, so maybe it shouldn't be there in a disagreement.  

To clear the question above a bit.
Lets say that two people have already met, and have been talking for longer than the time they have met one another. Formed a friendship before etc. Is it realistic then, to have arguments in the time they are getting to know one another?

Is there really any peaceful way that two people can have a disagreement? LOL! I mean, can we honestly expect to sit there and talk quietly while a rage of emotion and annoyance sits boiling inside of us? Is that really healthy?

I know..I know..I'm rambling it seems, but I hope I'm making some sense.

I just think there is a more positive way to argue about things. I think there is a way to do it without bringing in tempers that block the whole problem solving process.

Also, let me ask one more question. I'm not making less of anyone's opinion when I ask this, but are the above opinions based on your life experiences? If you have drawn this conclusion from them, can you honestly say that you had argued clearly? Did you use anger to gain in the discussion (even without realizing it we do that), and do you think you could have handled it all in a more peaceful way?

I hope I've made a little bit of sense here with my questions this time. I'm still wandering around this issue and exploring it myself, so I'm forming my questions as I go I suppose.

Thanks for all the thoughts so far. I'll be reading.

I will not bend to the cowardice of a silent judgement.

Sven
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5 posted 07-17-2002 04:58 PM       View Profile for Sven   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Sven

ok. . .

arguments are going to happen. . . there's no way around it. . . there are going to be disagreements. . . but, as you said, it's how you handle them that's the key. . .

no, you can't just go yelling and screaming at each other. . . that never works. . . and, sometimes, leads to great anger (believe me, I know). . . sometimes, you have to walk away from the argument and just take a moment to get your thoughts back together and go from there (this is something that I try to do, doesn't always work, but I do try to do it)

yes, you have to talk and to listen to one another. . . and, you have to learn to try to see things from the other person's perspective. . .

sometimes, sadly, other things weigh in on this. . . perhaps someone is tired, or has had a bad day, or they're just not feeling well. . . or, they've been dealing with other things or people. . .all of these things can influence an argument. . . and yes, I know that these kinds of things shouldn't weigh in like they do. . . but, they do. . .

do the sillly things matter??  it depends on what they are. . . what might be silly to one may not be to the other. . . this has to be communicated. . . if the one that sees it as silly understands that it's not so silly to the other, they will try hard (if they love that person) to understand. . .

does it doom the future of the relationship?  no. . . it takes more than constant arguing to doom a relationship. . . a lot more. . . I know that I don't have to tell you what those things are. . . you know them already (or, can probably figure them out. . .)

yes, there are peaceful ways to disagree. . .and it can be done. . .

something else that you mentioned. . . you have to consider also if the person that you're with has had in the past (or, is coming out of) a relationship where disagreements were not as peaceful. . .where all that they did was yelling and screaming. . . it can be something that's hard to break. . . but, again, if they care about you, they will work on it. . .and learn to disagree without being angry. . .

communication is important. . .you can't hide. . .you have to say what you're going to say. . . there's nothing worse than not saying anything. . .

lots and lots of good words here. . . can't wait to see more. . .



----------------------------------------------------------------------

To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world.

[This message has been edited by Sven (07-17-2002 05:00 PM).]

Poet deVine
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6 posted 07-17-2002 07:53 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

In reading all this, this one paragraph jumped out at me:

quote:

Is there really any peaceful way that two people can have a disagreement? LOL! I mean, can we honestly expect to sit there and talk quietly while a rage of emotion and annoyance sits boiling inside of us? Is that really healthy?




A rage of emotion? That sound more like a problem with someone's personality - when one RAGES it means there is little control.

From personal experience, arguments cannot be avoided and they can be good for a relationship. But the manner in which they are conducted is very important. An argument becomes an argument when a discussion gets out of hand...when someone can't/won't see another person's view. I've found that someone must say "let's take a moment to breathe". Then smile at each other. Then try to continue the argument. The smile will sometimes neutralize the harsher emotions that are coming to the surface.

In the beginning of any relationship each party is trying to show their 'best side'..with familiarity comes reality.

If you can't work through the reality, then maybe you need to go back to the fantasy relationship.....but that isn't REAL.
Severn
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7 posted 07-17-2002 10:20 PM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Hm.

I've had many relationships, each with their own dynamics...the one I was in last year...so frustrating...wouldn't talk about anything. He'd clam up...no dissension allowed - I felt like a battering ram railing at a very strong wooden wall. The fact that this guy wouldn't allow us to argue, let alone have a Tense Discussion (heh) was just as unhealthy as arguing in an abusive, violent fashion would have been.

Concurring with others above - arguments can be healthy - depends on how they're argued doesn't it? If you're screaming and yelling, refusing to listen to the other person, refusing to concede to some of their points, refusing to try to understand where they are coming from...yeah, you might have problems.

Would anyone really want to be in a relationship where everything was instantly agreed upon? How boring? It is to me...reaching an understanding with someone is part of growth I think. Acceptance that love and relationship is not all about mushy flowers and a golden glow suffusing your life...but about compromise, contention and patience - hell, this is another human we're talking about! ~throws up hands in horror~

My philosophy in the end - the relationship is usually much more important than who is 'right' or 'wrong.' And that is what I have learned from my own experience. So - how much does the relationship matter?

Yes it is realistic to argue in the time while getting to know one another - highly. Why wouldn't it be? Just because you don't instantly agree in the 'honeymoon period' is probably a good thing actually. The sooner you see reality the better. And then there's the matter of personality - argumentative, temperamental, quick tempered, slow burning, stubborn...all of that will affect how much, and how, one argues. Sometimes we have to recognise our arguing style and overcome it if it isn't conducive to having an argument that doesn't lead to a violently emotive maelstrom  

But that said - is peace necessary for an argument? Peace isn't really appropriate is it? It's an argument afterall. Peace comes afterward, when things have calmed down, when you come together in closeness and hopefully more understanding. And if nothing has been resolved then hopefully you can still come together in love and understanding because it is the relationship that matters, and not who is right or wrong.

Have I argued clearly? Not always no. I'm a contrast to myself - emotion mixed with logic. Sometimes the emotion wins out over the logic, and vice versa. I've 'trained' myself over the years to put more of a focus on the logic when in an argument...but it doesn't always work - particularly when highly emotional topics are being beaten about.

Personally I don't think that exploiting anger in an argument actually gets you anywhere. People can be at their most manipulative when arguing. They learn the buttons to push the most effectively in their partners..and bam...a great contest of wills emerges to try to get their own way. Never works..it really doesn't. Manipulation generally drives people apart. For the most part, I think it's one of the least loving things we can do.


Hope my rant helped..

K

[This message has been edited by Severn (07-17-2002 10:22 PM).]

Elizabeth Cor
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8 posted 07-18-2002 04:06 AM       View Profile for Elizabeth Cor   Email Elizabeth Cor   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Elizabeth Cor

yes, it's realistic to argue... having a different point of view can even be a strong point in a relationship... speaking from self practice (heh), I've recently experienced one of the most rewarding relationships of my life with a person who’s view was constantly in contradiction to mine…

often the discussion became heated, but not enraged… because of one small, vital factor: we each felt heard, listened to… and while one was speaking, the other focused on understanding…

it wasn’t even something we had to work on, it just came naturally… because of care and respect, and genuine interest in the other person and their perspective…

so I would take a closer look at that aspect, Jen... do you feel frustrated in the arguments? Do you feel as if you have to fight to have your say? When you have any kind of disagreement, do you feel as if what you are saying is given attention and true consideration? Do you feel heard?

This isn’t to say that arguments should be easy, or that all of them will be painless, but if in the end there is resolution that comes, and it is given out of being understood… then it sounds to me like you’ve got a chance at something good…

Good Luck!
serenity blaze
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9 posted 07-18-2002 04:19 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

*shrug*

Is it realistic to expect another person to see everything through the color of our own eyes?
nakdthoughts
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10 posted 07-18-2002 06:38 AM       View Profile for nakdthoughts   Email nakdthoughts   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for nakdthoughts

It seems many on here are saying arguing is healthy...my take on your question  was that  your relationship was one of constant arguing..and to that I stick with my belief  and long term  marriage of 30 good years, that it is not healthy.

Now if you are talking about disagreeing occasionally, then I say yes..like Serenity expressed you are two different people and no one thinks exactly as another does.But each has to allow "opinions" to be heard and even a little heated when trying to back them up is ok.

I would say though since it seems you haven't met in real, that when you do, you will know if the arguing is productive in your relationship or not. And if the arguing is carried over on a daily basis, then I think you are wasting your time.  Acceptance of  differences is important in any relationship.
I hope you get at what I am  trying to say...too many younger people today think that fighting and verbal abuse is a part of the "deal" and  it seems too many also don't go for the "nice guy". They like the excitement that friction can cause...I see it on tv, in the news and hear it in the schools...they start younger and younger accepting it. I would think alot of yelling and verbal battling  may  be a precurser to the next level of abuse if the arguments become nasty.

M
Opeth
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11 posted 07-18-2002 09:55 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

What is the nature of some of these "stupid arguments?" If you don't mind, give an example.

[This message has been edited by Opeth (07-18-2002 10:26 AM).]

Temptress
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12 posted 07-18-2002 03:34 PM       View Profile for Temptress   Email Temptress   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Temptress

just wanted everyone to know that I am reading this, and I will come back and comment, etc. I'm sort of getting ready for work, and sort of trying to kick my muse around a bit before she rests while I work (no fair )

Everyone's points so far are interesting. Elizabeth and Severn. So far, ladies, I'm finding out that not all of your thoughts differ from my own after all.

Ser,
Sweets, that is an interesting question. Does it seem like I'm expecting that given what I've been asking here? I certainly hope not, because I always try very hard not to expect that.

Everyone else..*sigh* LOL! Got some long comments, so I'll be back.

Love to you all!

I will not bend to the cowardice of a silent judgement.

hush
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13 posted 07-19-2002 03:43 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

There's a difference between an arguement and a fight.

My boyfriend and I have never had a fight. In nine months, we have never called each other a name, or screamed... We have arguments very often though... usually, ithey are good-natured... arguments over literature, art, politics, etc. I guess I could call them discussions, but usually we don't see exactly eye-to-eye... we're close enough that we don't have to shout the distance, but far enough apart for breathing room... and I think that's key, finding that balance where you can argue, but not get too angry... know how to calm down, let things go, and keep in mind your feelings for the person, even when you disagree strongly on personal issues...

I also find happiness in being in a provoking relationship- both intellectually and emotionally. Some people don't like to be provoked... if you don't like a relationship with a lot of disagreement, if you don't like to argue about things, and you are.... I think that's the most important thing... what are you looking for, and does this person deliver?

Hope I've been helpful...

Who is John Galt?

bsquirrel
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14 posted 07-19-2002 12:10 PM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

I think it depends on the type of argument, Jenn.

Some arguments are small and silly and a monument to clashing egos -- those are easily forgotten and maybe even smiled upon for their sheer ludicrousness.

But, then there's long-term arguments. Something between you that always rears its head again. Something that, upon the second time of its reappearance, you wonder if you were wrong to think the matter was settled; third time, wondering when you two were honestly happy; fourth time, are you two healthy for each other? Etc.

I think, honestly, it's about the strength of the people involved more than the strength of the argument. I know, for me, anyway, the disagreements that reappear again and again in different guise but same reason -- they're not worth ending a relationship over. But you'd better know that relationship is what you want, and that it's something you're ready to invest your life in.

I dunno. Men and women are so very different. It's amazing that any relationships work out how they do. So I'd rather take the realist view, and say, yes, y ou're gonna have arguments. Bad ones, occasionally. But the outcome should be that you understand each other in the end, and realize this is still the person who matters more than your views.

Or, y' can break up. *shrug*

I'm so long-winded today!

She said burn ... together.
-TON

Anvrill
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15 posted 07-19-2002 04:23 PM       View Profile for Anvrill   Email Anvrill   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Anvrill's Home Page   View IP for Anvrill

I think, if you never have an argument with someone, it's more dangerous than when you do. I mean, c'mon, no two human beings are going to think and feel exactly alike about everything. So if wills never clash, that's more or less meaning that you're just waiting and building up for the big blow. Which is not fun.

Though arguments themselves may not be fun, especially not biggies, if the time not spent fighting is good (or, hell, awesome), you've got to keep that in consideration. I know that when the fights are going on, it feels like everything's just gone right down the crapper, but that's a heat-of-the-moment feeling.

It's always worth it to tough it out, but you've gotta do your best to never actually walk away mad. If this means talking it out until the li'l tiny wee hours of the morning, let it be so.

And another good thing to do is remember that both people in the fight are idiots, not just the person you're fighting with.  

(Sidenote to Mikhail: Sorry I seem to have had my head shoved up my butt for the last month; will try to remedy this malady!)



written in blood before everything went black

JCV

[This message has been edited by Anvrill (07-19-2002 04:25 PM).]

bsquirrel
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16 posted 07-19-2002 05:34 PM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

I love it when Lori participates in these discussions.

She said burn ... together.
-TON

Anvrill
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17 posted 07-19-2002 06:20 PM       View Profile for Anvrill   Email Anvrill   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Anvrill's Home Page   View IP for Anvrill

Hey, I do exist, babe.

written in blood before everything went black

JCV

bsquirrel
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18 posted 07-19-2002 08:23 PM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

Love you.

She said burn ... together.
-TON

Temptress
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19 posted 07-20-2002 01:04 AM       View Profile for Temptress   Email Temptress   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Temptress

Lori..Mike..
Get a room, eh?


just kidding

I will not bend to the cowardice of a silent judgement.

bsquirrel
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20 posted 07-20-2002 11:31 AM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

Sorry for hijackin' yr discussion, Jenn. Please continue!

She said burn ... together.
-TON

Temptress
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21 posted 07-20-2002 03:45 PM       View Profile for Temptress   Email Temptress   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Temptress

LOL! isokay, Mike. I'd want to scream it to the heavens and above too.

I will not bend to the cowardice of a silent judgement.

MidnightSon
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22 posted 07-22-2002 07:39 AM       View Profile for MidnightSon   Email MidnightSon   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for MidnightSon

i hope my future gal pal can argue with me about the little things.... she's gotta have wit ya know.
and the trivial things are what matter to me.
but then, everything's trivial to me.
it's just life, right?

arguements come an go. if you can't talk your way out of em and have a sense of humor about the stupid things, then you're probably not even friends.

it's our struggle for identity that leaves us all unknown

catalinamoon
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23 posted 07-22-2002 09:40 PM       View Profile for catalinamoon   Email catalinamoon   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit catalinamoon's Home Page   View IP for catalinamoon

Arguing ruins it for me. They are supposed to agree with us all the time  LOL
Seriously, if someone is easily annoyed, or crabby, or just plain difficult, I would say it is not worth the time you may put into it.
Sandra
 
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