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TeenChat?
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TeenChat? |
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Alexia
since 2001-06-07
Posts 164Sweet And Sassy 
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Did they take out teenchat? Because I don't see it .. and if they did why? later Megz |
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Greeneyes 
since 2000-09-09
Posts 9903In Your Poetic Mind |
Alexia, Yes they did....I would say go to the DEP MOD area and its all explained there.... I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings |
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Alexia
since 2001-06-07
Posts 164Sweet And Sassy |
Thanks! They probably closed it because none was getting along or something along those lines. but anyways thanks again Megz ¤Smile, because you never know who'z in love with it¤ |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
I'll lend the short answer: Teen Chat was removed because some people who frequented it chose to abuse the priveledge it is. Teen Chat can be reinstated when it can be believed that the direction and existence of such will not be abused. Whether this means a change of direction, format, etc., is dependent on time and inclination, though i doubt as much as the feedback from those who used it. feel free to discuss it here. we would all love to hear other viewpoints. |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
I agree with Christopher, I'd love to hear your comments on this issue.  |
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Phaedrus Member
since 2002-01-26
Posts 180 |
It’s hard to comment when you don’t know what happened and the circumstances surrounding the removal, being in the dark isn’t conducive to seeing things clearly. |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Phaedrus, the explanation that Christopher gave is the explanation in a nutshell. The forum was abused. |
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Phaedrus Member
since 2002-01-26
Posts 180 |
Abused? In which way? Sorry but I’m still in the dark and if you really want honest opinions and comments someone is gonna have to spell it out a little more clearly. If not asking for comments seems a little pointless. |
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Greeneyes
since 2000-09-09
Posts 9903In Your Poetic Mind |
Phaedrus-- If I may, there was some strong language that Moderators, Ron, and the Admin team felt were unaccaptable, due to the guidlines of PIP, the post made, came from a couple of DEP Moderators. Ron decided to pull the Teen Chat until there was discussion for why the Teen Chat should re-open….This is just my take on all I have seen and read….I think Moderators, Teens and anyone with an opinion should form a Topic of discussion and go from there….Does that help a little?? ~~~~~ Sincerely, Lauren~ I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings Could I have been anyone other than me True poems rest between the words Just give hope a chance to float up [This message has been edited by Greeneyes (05-04-2002 10:55 AM).] |
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Phaedrus Member
since 2002-01-26
Posts 180 |
It certainly helps a little Lauren, thanks for taking the time to explain. I’d be very interested in taking part in that discussion if someone would care to let me know where and when. |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
Phaedrus, you're allowed to come out of Dark whenever you choose...  The Teen Chat Forum was intended to be an ancillary place for our teens to meet and converse. It was never intended to be a 'chat room' in the sense of most internet chatting places. This is a writers' site. Our loyalty is to our writers, be they teen or adult. When any of our forums deviates from its original purpose, we have to look at what's happening and why. For quite some time now, we've seen the Teen Chat Forum doing just that. It was taking on more of a 'street corner' ambience than any of us was comfortable with. Ergo, something needed to be done. Ultimately, it went just a bit too far. Our moderators aren't here to act as chaperones to an unruly group of members (no matter what their age). Personal responsibility for every word posted is each and every member's promise when they join. When we see that promise slacking, we do what's necessary to ameliorate the problem... Anyone have any 'productive' thoughts on this? |
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Greeneyes
since 2000-09-09
Posts 9903In Your Poetic Mind |
Phaedrus~ Be the leader and take charge, if you feel comfortable, to start the Topic?? Lauren~ I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings |
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Phaedrus Member
since 2002-01-26
Posts 180 |
Lauren, Here seems as good a place as any  Nan, I’m beginning to see the light.  I’m fully aware of why the Teen Chat Forum was formed, I Moderated it for a short time when it was Teen Explorer albeit under a different username. I’ve watched it morph into the street corner forum you mentioned and, I admit, was at first a little disappointed as it could have been so much more, but those taking part seemed to like simply chatting, is that such a bad thing? With respect if chat wasn’t the main reason for the forum then why call it Teen Chat in the first place, and if the forum was drifting away from it’s original intent why wasn’t an effort made to guide it back on course? With regard to the strong language mentioned by Lauren as a reason to close the forum that simply doesn’t make sense, there are rules and punishments available to deal with such abuse without resorting to forum closure. I mean would Open be closed if the same happened there? I’m not saying that closing the forum was the wrong decision, I’m sure I’m still in the dark regarding the full facts of this matter. All I’m saying is it seems on the information available a little heavy handed to close the forum that the majority enjoyed for the transgressions of the minority. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
The Teen Chat forum has been up for discussion by the Moderators several times in the past few months, with most of those discussions initiated by one of our Teen Moderators. The objections were both many and diverse, but the underlying complaint was simple - people seemed unable to get along with each other. For a while, I thought about renaming the forum to Teen Bickering. It's important to realize that all of the discussion forums at pipTalk exist as an adjunct to the poetry forums. Writing isn't just about putting words on paper, but rather is about seeing and exploring our worlds. It's about conveying our feelings and personal insights. Unfortunately, our feelings and insights are necessarily limited by our own environment, our own experiences. A hundred years ago, it was not uncommon for writers to tour Europe or take long sabbaticals in order to extend their limitations. And throughout history, writers have voraciously read the work of others for much the same reason. In today's world, we have a new tool - interactive discussion that largely ignores physical distances. Our discussion forums give us the opportunity to see our worlds through different eyes, much as reading has done for thousands of years, but with the added benefit of back-and-forth, question-and-answer interaction. At no other time in history have writers been LESS limited by their own experiences. I think that makes all of the discussion forums important. Even vital. But they are STILL an adjunct to the poetry forums. Poetry and writing remain our focus, remain the reason these forums and this web site exist. In general, this site attracts people interested in writing, poets and writers who may eventually find their way into the discussion forums. In Teen Chat, however, many of the participants rarely posted poetry and there were more than a few who had never posted a poem. Teen Chat, day after day, had more posts than Teen Poetry. We attracted teens whose sole reason for being here was to socialize. I ignored that for a long time, in hopes that being exposed to what we do here would help generate a genuine interest in what we do here. It might have worked, too. Except that Teen Chat became too insulated, too removed from the rest of pipTalk, too much a community apart from the rest of us. The constant bickering should have been a clue, but it was one I didn't recognize. The precepts of Respect and Tolerance that keep these forums alive aren't just rules. They are an undercurrent that is part of every person here. They are part of our culture, kept alive and breathing by each of you on a daily basis. I honestly don't know how that culture was born, but it continues to survive only because it inundates everything we do. Those who arrive new to pipTalk quickly feel the difference, and in a fairly short time most of the newbies become a part of that culture, adding their own breath and heartbeat to keep it surviving. That's both good and vitally necessary. Because Respect and Tolerance, as nothing more than rules, can never be enforced. You can't MAKE people care about each other. At best, you can only get rid of those who don't. Respect and Tolerance never gained a real foothold in Teen Chat. Because the forum was insulated from the rest of us, it developed its own culture. Bickering. Animosity. Spite. Respect and Tolerance became nothing more than rules, rules many learned very quickly to circumvent or ignore. A few days ago, two of our Deputy Moderators, people I had entrusted with the responsibility to help build Respect and Tolerance, very flagrantly broke our most basic tenets. Instead of setting an example, instead of helping to correct the problems, they became the problem. And it became apparent to me that Teen Chat was an unsalvageable liability. Instead of fostering Respect and Tolerance, the forum was actively discouraging it. Even those who best understood our culture were sinking into the more pervasive quagmire of disrespect. The Teens who came to these forums merely to socialize will, in the end, be much happier elsewhere. Those who remain, who sincerely want to be part of a writing community, will continue to receive my full support, encouragement, and very sincere thanks for all that they contribute. And make no mistake, they DO contribute a great deal. Already, I see many of the teens from two years ago becoming the adult leaders who will take these forums into the next generation. Teen Chat isn't necessarily dead. Someday, perhaps after the "socializers" have found a new home, we may try again. Maybe with a different name, and most certainly with a different structure and focus. We are writers. Not teens and adults, not Americans and Canadians, not Members and Moderators, not oldies and newbies. Just writers. As writers, our goal should be to unify, not segregate. As writers, our goal should be to foster understanding, not perpetuate misunderstandings. As writers, our goal should be to write. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
i'd like to add to what Lauren said, and mildly modify what nan said: the abuse of the forum sprang much father than just language issues. it was even farther than violating the self-harm guidelines we have in place. it was more an entire attitude that had seemed to set in some time back and grow worse as time went by - the same type of attitude where some people felt the desire to thumb their nose at [us] and ignore completely the philosophy of Passions, which is one of Tolerance and Sharing. crude language and other guidelines being broken are simply a by-product of ignoring that philosophy. and - the forums ARE designed from the viewpoint of being a place for writers... but, as anything does over time, it changes. i i have seen it change from being a place for just sharing poetry, to being a place that also has prose, places to learn how to write better, and a place that, ultimately, is a place for people who are interested in anything to do with writing... a place for PEOPLE. this doesn't necessirly preclude a place where conversation can be used as a medium for sharing; interests, personal lives, etc. i think that part isn't as important as HOW it is used. my op Christopher looks like you two responded at the same time as i was forming mine.  heh[This message has been edited by Christopher (05-04-2002 12:14 PM).] |
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Phaedrus Member
since 2002-01-26
Posts 180 |
Ron, Thanks for the explanation, under the circumstances, and with the benefit of your explanation of the reasons, I have to agree that a temporary closure was perhaps the best option. Whether the forum re-opens in the future and the format that it could take if that happens would seem to be a worthwhile direction to take this discussion, or do you think it’s too early to talk about a resurrection? Christopher, As I said I watched the forum drift and was disappointed in the direction it took though I have to agree that the manner in which the chat was conducted and not the chat itself led to the forums demise. [This message has been edited by Phaedrus (05-04-2002 03:38 PM).] |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
No, it's not too early for that discussion - especially since I have no other ideas. The first thing to do, though, is to agree on the goals. I propose the following: 1. No "forum specific" rules. Any rule that applies to teens has to apply to everyone at pipTalk. And visa versa. 2. People who want to play only baseball probably shouldn't join a bowling league. Teens don't have to talk about writing all the time, but they do have to write. 3. It's fine to spend most of your time in one room of your house, as long as that room isn't a closet. Any new forum can't become a closet, but must be a part of the whole community. 4. Need I even say it? Respect and tolerance of others must be more than just a set of rules. Any other thoughts or ideas? |
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LCBS Senior Member
since 2001-11-29
Posts 532Connecticut |
After reading this I kinda understand whats going on, I agree with a lot of what you say, and see that I am certainly contributing to the problem and not the solution.... However, Ron, teenagers bicker....its a right of passing...we think we are always right...and we bicker. But in the end, my relationships with my commrades at pip are stronger because through bickering I learn a lot about the people that share this blue screen with me. This might not be best for Piptalk, and it might not be best for teen chat, but please dont hold it against us! ~Lisa I just read Rons post that was posted at the same time as mine...I agree on all those goals with all my heart! And I just wanted to clarify that I did not write this post to "bicker" with anyone....just to stick up for myself cause in a way this discussion was a blow to my pride. Believe me, I have nothing but respect for Ron and what he does for us everyday... [This message has been edited by LCBS (05-04-2002 02:16 PM).] |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
You should read through some threads in the Alley, Lisa. Or even spend some time in the Philosophy forum. Disagreements are not limited to teens and you might be surprised how many adults think they're always right, too. Controversy is healthy. It's a sign of growth. The very last thing any of us want to do is squash disagreements that can make people think. But you can disagree with someone, even vehemently and at a gut level, and STILL extend them the respect they deserve as a human being. It's easy to show someone respect when it's a person you like. It's much more important, though, to continue showing it even when it's someone you dislike. I'll be the first to admit we don't always practice that perfectly, not in the Alley, not in Philosophy, not even in Open. But we try, and I think we succeed far more often than we fail. In the Teen Chat forum, there were too many who didn't even try. |
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Kit McCallum
Administrator
Member Laureate
since 2000-04-30
Posts 14774Ontario, Canada |
Well, I'm trying to catch up on everything I've missed the past while, since I've been ill … and I'm just now getting to the Teen Chat forum issue. To be honest … I'm really at a loss to understand why some are surprised that Teen Chat was removed? I noticed some of the Teen members feel that this decision came "without warning" … almost as if this were a knee-jerk, spontaneous reaction that was unwarranted. I don't find this to be the case. We've been discussing Teen Chat's influence and purpose within these walls from way back when it was originally Teen Explorer, and we have continued to discuss both it's positive and negative aspects right up until Ron made the decision to pull the forum. In my opinion, this is an attempt to get a handle on a situation that has seemed to fester, from a slow boil to various eruptions over and over again. Several of us have requested Teen feedback on this continuing problem issue in the past, both through posts in Teen Chat and posts in the DM forum. Many of our Teen DM's or SM's have given us valuable input, have worked hard to turn Teen Chat around, and yet, try as we all did … it continually became an issue for moderator discussion due to tempers flaring, arguments, profanity, complaints, etc. Granted, it was not like that 100% of the time… but it was increasingly becoming combative over the past year or more. Many threads were just fun and silly, but many Teen members became annoyed by their frivolousness and sheer volume. We have lost a great deal of really active and very talented Teens, and it all seems to have come on the heels of Teen Chat, or at least that seems to be the complaint we heard over and over. These are just a few of the comments that I gathered over time. They are direct quotes from a multitude of various DM or Teen Chat threads made by various Teen members, over a span of time: "Family of Friends used to mean a strong connection between people of all walks of life coming together to form a common interest. Now, I don't know." "I find most of the things that go on there very annoying. It's trying on my nerves a lot of the time … I see Teen Chat becoming very clique-ish … it's become nothing but a bunch of immature gossip and banter" "Teen Chat and #5 has become incredibly frustrating as there is either too much idle chit chat on pointless topics" "We can come together as a group and make improvements or we can all sit here and watch it decay...your choice everyone...its sad to see that it had to come to this." "everyone's always complaining about how there's no one replying in Teen 5, and still, no one replies in Teen 5" "I can't be bothered ….coming in every day and seeing the same pointless threads and jarble that never seems to go away." "too much garble and bantering back and forth … THAT is annoying" "I just dont know what to do n e more..everyones gotta act on their own...its up to the individual..i jus hope things turn out for the better." Just over three months ago, we had a very in-depth discussion in the DM forum. We were looking at the numerous Teen Chat and Teen Poetry problems and trying to find solutions. I truly think that many tried to make a very concerted effort to turn things around, on many occasions, and I applaud all those who did so. Members were asked "why" they joined PiP in the first place … trying to understand the issues, get a handle on things … was it the poetry … was it the camaraderie? What brought you to PiP? Jan 18, 2002: /pip/Forum40/HTML/000762.html We are, after all ... a poetry forum. Judging by the statistics I compiled regarding activity in Teen Chat vs. Teen Poetry … it seemed like Ron was primarily hosting a "chat board" for Teens, and not a "poetry forum" for Teens. I was very stunned by the statistics. Teen Poetry used to rival "Open" in the number of responses and posts … but in the past year ... it was lucky if it received a passing glance as so many rushed past it to the Chat forum. As a reminder to some who may not be aware, the Chat Forum arose from another venue Ron opened called Teen Explorer. That was specifically to be used as a mentoring forum for poetry, critiques, etc. It was meant to be poetry related. When it became clear that members may benefit by a "general discussion forum", again, we asked for feedback and acted on it - thus Teen Chat was born: Members Voted for what direction they'd like to see Teen Explorer go Apr 18, 2001: /pip/Forum45/HTML/001805.html Somewhere along the line though … for what I think are a multitude of reasons, problems arose, and tempers and complaints began to flare amongst the members. Another Leaving thread addressing problems-Apr 4, 2002: /pip/Forum40/HTML/000914.html Teen PiP falling apart - Apr 5, 2002: /pip/Forum40/HTML/000917.html All forums go through changes. The members change, the forums change, people will come, and people will go … but what holds us here … what brought us here, I hope … is to come here to read, share and enjoy poetry. In my opinion, the discussion forums are merely an additional "benefit or bonus" where we can get to know a bit more about each other. They are by no means … the primary focus of this poetic site. If Teen Chat took away from the poetic aspect as the statistics would suggest, if Teen Chat formed deeper cliques, caused distress and annoyance to many … then I find it difficult to locate the redeeming value or benefit of having a Teen Chat forum here at Passions in the same fashion as it most recently was. We are always open to discussion, feedback and opinions however … and value everyone's input. If there is any additional input anyone can send our way regarding this, then please do so. The removal of Teen Chat should not be seen as "punishment", but rather an attempt to get a handle on a situation that has seemed to fester over and over again. Now is the time to voice any additional opinions ... There are many "chat" programs available that could be set up "outside" of PiP, either through Yahoo or various sites, and perhaps that would be preferable alternative for many - those who don't wish to participate in that aspect, would not feel so obligated - poetry would perhaps become the more primary focus once again, when visiting PiP - and those "chatting outside of PIP" would not be subject to the rules and guidelines that "do" need to be governed here by moderators when the discussion is a part of Passions itself. After all, if it's within Passions … it goes without saying, that we "must" adhere to those few but certain rules that all members should be aware of. Perhaps we could look at it as a temporary opportunity for Teens to join in the Alley, The Lounge, Feelings, etc … branch out a bit ... maybe this would be a positive and not a negative bonus to many throughout the forums? Perhaps we can start some poetic ping-pong threads, challenges etc. to inject a little life into Teen Poetry? Direct our efforts toward poetic rejuvenation, while we determine how to move forward from here? The Teen Forums mean a great deal to me, as does the health of Passions, and I'm sure we will get over this hurdle as we've done with other issues in the past. |
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Phaedrus Member
since 2002-01-26
Posts 180 |
I’ve been thinking, which is generally a dangerous thing, the fact that I’ve been thinking hard will hopefully make the results ‘hardly dangerous’ but who knows. Building a whole bunch of rules, especially when those rules could affect other forums and members, seems a steep price to pay just to have a Teen Forum. An argument could be made that threads of the type posted there in the past can just as easily be posted in existing forums where the effect would be diffused. That’s a narrow view in my opinion, the Teen forum was created originally for a reason – to give the teens a home of their own where they could enter into discussion and interact. That reason hasn’t gone away, Ron, to his credit, has recognised the positives that can come from such a forum and is looking for an answer where those positives won’t be swamped by a whole raft of negatives. One possible answer was raised by Nan: quote: All you need to do is replace AREN’T with ARE in the first sentence, re-open the Teen with a couple of Moderators who ‘kick-ass’ (as you Americans quaintly put it ) when and where it’s needed.Steering is easier if everyone is clear about the direction in which you’re aiming to go, to that end why not make the top post in every forum a shortcut to the forum guidelines. In the case of Teen Chat (or whatever the name ends up being) you can stipulate that interaction in other forums is a prerequisite of interaction in teen, profanity will not be tolerated and that the moderators are a trigger happy bunch armed with instant suspensions. Temporary posting bans in specific forum would be helpful to ensure that the closet mentality was kept to a minimum, is that possible with the software Ron? This isn’t anything new, these ‘rules’ already exist in every forum, what I propose is that the Mods use them a little more freely to keep the forum in check. The big downside to all this is that you need to find two or more moderators willing to put the time in to make it work. It’ll be a thankless task and a lot of hard work but in the end I think it’s worth the effort, perhaps a two month trial would be worth contemplating. Hope all that was hardly dangerous or even slightly helpful. |
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Greeneyes
since 2000-09-09
Posts 9903In Your Poetic Mind |
Phaedrus~ thats wonderful but I have to agree with Nan the Moderators aren't really here to be chaperones, for any forum or group..... "Steering is easier if everyone is clear about the direction in which you’re aiming to go, to that end why not make the top post in every forum a shortcut to the forum guidelines. In the case of Teen Chat (or whatever the name ends up being) you can stipulate that interaction in other forums is a prerequisite of interaction in teen, profanity will not be tolerated and that the moderators are a trigger happy bunch armed with instant suspensions." That has already been done, it's the guideline that we all signed, and agreed to conform too.....I dont feel it is up to Ron, or any one else to have to remind any one of the guidelinesMHO "This isn’t anything new, these ‘rules’ already exist in every forum, what I propose is that the Mods use them a little more freely to keep the forum in check." Personally can I just say, this is a huge site with people doing their best everyday to keep this place "safe" and running the way it should..... are you willing to come back and be a moderator?? (werent you one, at some point?) "The big downside to all this is that you need to find two or more moderators willing to put the time in to make it work." who has that much time to sit all day and do that??? its a wonderful idea but not a logical one...sorry MHO this is my view and I only touched on a few feelings..... I think a little progress is being made.... thats good to see...Sincerely, with my two cents Lauren~ I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings |
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Phaedrus Member
since 2002-01-26
Posts 180 |
Lauren, I was never a very good moderator, I’m probably less adept when it comes to thinking and ideas but it seems to me that the best place to tackle the problems highlighted are at the root. The ideal is that the people using the forums do so with respect, when they don’t it’s the job of the moderators to do something about it. If the former were true the moderators wouldn’t have anything to do (this is a good thing) when it isn’t and nothing is done things tend to spiral as they did in Teen Chat. It’s been mentioned that there has been a lot of discussion about Teen Chat, I’ve seen some in the main forums but very little, most of the discussion seems to have taken place within the restricted forums. I understand that a lot of the points raised would have been about individual cases and unsuitable for general discussion but would it not have been better to air the general grievances and worries about which way the forum was going out in the open? Kit said: quote: I was surprised the forum was closed “without warning”, posting a thousand threads in a restricted forum wouldn’t have lessened that surprise. Posting one or two threats in Teen or somewhere else might have got my attention and other peoples too. All that’s water under the bridge now though, the question has to be do we want or need a Teen Chat Forum and if so how are we going to stop it from becoming what it did and if the steps needed to be taken are worth the price we may have to pay. I think the answer to both questions is yes I'm worried however that the easiest and more likely answer to both is no. [This message has been edited by Phaedrus (05-04-2002 06:24 PM).] |
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LCBS Senior Member
since 2001-11-29
Posts 532Connecticut |
I was thinking some more, turning it over in my head....cause I tend to do that a lot... I know that when I first stumbled to Teen chat (by accident, I was on the site for at least a year before realizing it was there) I tried to make my threads similar to the others....because I wanted to fit it. The thing is, when you look at the threads of others, you tend to mirror what they do. And soon enough we had a "chat room" like thing, backed up with posts that were all the same, and that really made no sense.... Thats just me thinking....trying to grasp justification..... And after more and more thinking, I've decided I'm happy that you took it away for a while...yea...it needed a break....and maybe when it comes back, you guys can show me what a Teen Chat should really be ~Lisa |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
Where are the teens? Oh, a few have joined in the discussion here but where are the ones who felt that Teen Chat was their home? Where are the reasonable teens who can speak up about keeping a Teen Chat Forum alive and maintained? I know there were lots more members in Teen Chat than have voiced an opinion on this. |
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NapalmsConstantlyConfused
since 2001-05-15
Posts 529 |
i would like to point out something that may have contributed to the reaction... i know until i came into the deputy moderator forums i was totally in the dark as to the sheer amount of discussion that takes place in there, and the volume of material that gets passed back and forth. i can only assume that the senior moderator forum sees an equivalent amount of traffic. given this, it is quite possible that most of the teens didn't know it was being discussed - the rules about not bringing things out of the moderator forums sort of hid the discussion. (don't get me wrong, i agree with that rule, but i think it was inconvenient in this instance.) i have certainly become aware of the discussions in the dep mod forums now, but since most readers don't have access to the forum, they might simply not have known that the problem had reached that high a stress level. just a thought -Dave |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
No Dave, most of the discussions were held in the DM forum. In full view of ALL DM's who chose to participate. I counted about 25 teen DM's. Most of the teens in the Chat Forum had that forum bookmarked and never went to another forum. I wonder if they can find their way back? |
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Phaedrus Member
since 2002-01-26
Posts 180 |
Sharon, I think the point Dave was trying to make is the one I touched on earlier, if the discussions took place in a restricted forum how are the rest of us mere mortals supposed to know what the heck’s going on and the possible ramifications? If we discount telepathy the answer seems to be that we can’t, hence the “without warning” feeling that Kit seemed to feel was unwarranted. Perhaps things might have turned out differently if the issues were tackled in the open, giving everyone a chance to voice their opinion and get a better handle on the seriousness of the situation. I don’t mean a “hey guys which way do you think this forum should go” type thread I mean a “ Look this isn’t working and we’re going to pull the plug if things don’t change” kind of thread. As I said earlier though hindsight is a wonderful thing but doesn’t get us very far. It’s easy for me to sit here in the cool light of day (night really ) thinking about all the what ifs when what we really need to do is take onboard the points that Ron raised and try and come up with a viable solution.On another note I’m as surprised as you are that more teens haven’t joined in this discussion, perhaps we’re wasting our time; maybe I’m wrong and the Teen Chat forum simply isn’t worth resurrecting . |
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Skyfire
since 2000-12-27
Posts 3381Riding |
"I noticed some of the Teen members feel that this decision came "without warning" … almost as if this were a knee-jerk, spontaneous reaction that was unwarranted. I don't find this to be the case. We've been discussing Teen Chat's influence and purpose within these walls from way back when it was originally Teen Explorer, and we have continued to discuss both it's positive and negative aspects right up until Ron made the decision to pull the forum." That's what Kit said. Now, why some of the teens feel/felt that way is beyond me. I've been hearing over and over how Teen Chat was dying, and how it had gone down the drain, and all that. I don't know what to say on this; I don't know why people in there were taking things so personally. For a while there, we were able to have honest, mature discussions about serious issues... but then it just went right back to the chatter again. I honestly think, (and this is just my opinion) that if the teens (myself included) had been a bit more mature, and not let things get to them, it wouldn't have come down to this. I've seen people carry insults or arguments over into Teen Poetry a few times, and I'm definately not discluding myself in that, cause I know I've done it at least once. I don't know, I just think that the Teen Chat Forum has needed something like this for a long time. We've lost some really valuable memebers because of thinly veiled insults, pointless conversations, and lack of response in the Teen Poetry section. Maybe if the Teen Chat is gone, those members will return and start posting their poetry again. I apologise for my part in this; I certainly haven't been an innocent bystander... I've said things that were thinly veiled, and barely got past guidelines. And I apologise. |
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Kit McCallum
Administrator
Member Laureate
since 2000-04-30
Posts 14774Ontario, Canada |
A few in-depth discussions did take place in the DM forum, and that is merely as a direct result of various problem threads from Teen Chat which were brought to all moderator's attention requiring discussion (cases of profanity ... issues of concern to be monitored). That's a normal course of the moderation of these forums. As Poet Devine pointed out ... a great many of our DM's are Teen Moderators and they were therefore a part of these discussions, and their feedback has been invaluable. I trust these members to give us the feedback necessary to make appropriate decisions. They are an integral part of the Teen forums ... they know the pulse or the heartbeat of the community ... and their opinions carry a great deal of weight. In addition to that however, many of the enlightening discussions took place throughout Teen Chat itself, in the general public, with the membership noting the various frustrations they had encountered as noted by the various links I supplied (there were many more that I did not include.) Regardless of what venue the problems were discussed within... they were discussed nonetheless, and feedback was requested, solutions or possibilities for solutions were offered for review and attempts to resolve the problem were implemented on numerous occasions. All were a result of the information compiled from both public and private discussions. The DM forum may be a private forum, but it is open to all members who sign up for a rotation ... even if their rotation was only once, and even a year ago. All are encouraged to continue to participate in the discussions within the DM forum, and to it's success, many continue to frequent our discussions and offer their opinions. Each voice has the ability to affect and determine the direction of the forums. That is in great part, the strength of the DM forum ... the continued participation of the "members" of Passions. After all, we are all simply members ... volunteering with our thoughts …. all hoping to contribute to the betterment of a "home" we can be proud of ... be comfortable in ... feel safe in ... and call "home". |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Doesn't the relative lack of reaction show something? I think it shows two things: 1. Some individuals involved know they screwed up (and knew it when they were doing it) but don't know how to fix it. 2. Some individuals involved knew what they were doing, thought it was funny, and when action came down, they shrugged their shoulders because, well, it was never all that important from the start. My point is that those involved already knew they were crossing the line. Perhaps they didn't consciously think it but intuitively they felt it. Silence says a lot. How do we solve this? Most of you know how much I love processes over simple answers and I would suggest the solution is developing at this moment -- here and in other threads. Brad |
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Masked Intruder
Moderator
Senior Member
since 1999-05-23
Posts 1231Near golden sunsets |
As an inconsistent member, it is easy for me to pop in and out without people noticing. I jumped into Teen Chat and Teen Poetry on occasion to see how they have been progressing over the past couple of years. And I have yet to regret my decision to not be a permanent moderator of Teen Poetry. The moderators of that forum, as well as Teen Chat, have done a remarkable job attempting to keep a rather large group of teenagers in line. Up until recently, they had managed to at least keep the rules and regulations bobbing above the surface. The time and energy spent trying to keep up with naturally unruly teenagers is immeasurable. But, inevitably it was more than they could handle. The residents of those forums blatantly disregarded their obligations and the authority that should have been shown to the moderators, again and again. I am in complete agreement with the removal of the chat forum. If those members that frequented the forum could not live up to the simple standards that Ron set down in the rules, they don't deserve to have an outlet designated for them alone. Poetry site, not chat site...as has been pointed out on more than one occasion. I will concede that there were some aspects to the forum that were beneficial to the members. But those aspects were somehow lost among the frenzy. If, by some small miracle, the benefits could be brought back to the top of Teen Chat's priority list, then by all means, reinstate the forum. Though, I will have to agree with, I think, Phaedrus (though I don't recall exactly who mentioned this idea) on the idea of a few heavy-handed moderators to control the forum for a few months. Out-of-control well describes the situation the forum was in before its closure; it cannot reach that point again if it were to be brought back. You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep. -- Navajo Proverb |
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Low Man's Lyric Member
since 2001-04-03
Posts 236In a dream |
I have been here when Teen Explorer was alive, but I am by no means the one thats been here the longest. But anyway I would like to have my input on the closing of Teen Chat. "Our discussion forums give us the opportunity to see our worlds through different eyes..." ~Ron Thats what Teen Chat was about, we expressed our ideas, our opinions, and if you like, our "world" to one another. Yes sometimes our own opinions and judgements may have caused "bickering" but since Teen Chat was about exploring each others world, how can there not be bickering? There will always be people who agree and disagree, and of course those that don't care either way. I have even contributed to getting people angry or mad, like on Teen Chat there was a thread about the German shooting but when I posted I talked about the American booing of the Canadian anthem and etc (I would give you a link but I can't get into Teen Chat =/ ). Sure I sounded mad and everything but I just gave my opinion on what I thought, and I saw/read no "bickering" at all. I read legitimate replies to what I said and it ended peacefully. Teen Chat was also about helping each other out, like Dancin Queen (Kiley) post about losing her father. Not only we gave our support for her but we also showed compasion and empathy for her as well. I don't know why some of you think that all teens do is fight or "bicker", I don't really see that at all. I mean there is no way we could stop that, its natural. We all fight or argue with friends, family, workers and etc. So there is bound to have moments with anger and frustration in Teen Chat since we are like a big group of friends, or even a family if you will. Other reasons why we fight is because life is sometimes hard for us teens. Some of you may think that we are too young to be depressed or too young to feel sad/anger/love. I'm 19 myself, and believe me when I say there are times when I felt like quiting. By quiting I mean taking my own life, its so frustrating during the teen years since everyone one of us may have experienced love and the loss of a loved one. I heard many adults say that teen love isn't real, it's just puppy love at best. Well to those that think that, wrong! I fell in love with someone, and we broke up. The emotional pain that came from the break up still remains today. I would rather go through intense physical pain than emotional pain. What I felt wasn't "puppy love", it was passion, understanding, security, happiness, sorrow, sadness, anger, pain...it was love. I know what I felt, I know how I feel. By taking away Teen Chat you robbed me of the love I felt by the people in Teen Chat, we are now a seperated family of friends who have no where to turn when we need to get something off our chest, or need to get help with a certain personal issue. Please bring back Teen Chat Hey, what is going on I said? There is no Teen Chat to be read. Now where is my circle of friends? Isn't this the haven without ends? Why take away something so pure? The reasons to me are unsure. But from what I do know, It's respect that we don't show. We fight, we talk, we laugh, we share, That's how we show that we care. Every family has a fight, Even if it doesn't seem right. There's no where else I'd rather be, Then in Teen Chat, with family. No signature for now, come back later. Oh wait, isn't this one? |
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Phaedrus Member
since 2002-01-26
Posts 180 |
Brad Perhaps all the teens had their posting privileges removed or maybe aliens abducted them all alternatively they might all feel a little hard done by and have decided that they simply don’t want to be in a place where they have no voice or defence against (possibly perceived)arbitrary decisions. I believe your answers are probably closer to the truth, but I’m only guessing. All, The senior members who are interested, and those Teens that have somehow avoided the clutches of the alien abductors, have two fundamental issues to resolve before we can move on. – Do we want or need a Teen Chat forum and if we do how do we stop it degenerating into what it had become. Until we start discussing the way forward all this thread and others are going to be are post mortems (useful in some respects) and pity parties (as useful as a chocolate fire engine). Has anybody any ides or is it better to let sleeping dogs and Teen Chat lie? [This message has been edited by Phaedrus (05-05-2002 10:52 AM).] |
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Low Man's Lyric Member
since 2001-04-03
Posts 236In a dream |
I don't know why you guys keep saying that Teen Chat "degenerated" into what it is now, wasn't the purpose of having it for us teens to chat? It was under the "Discussion" part of PIP, and the description of Teen Chat said something like "A place to discuss the future of society" or soemthing around those lines. So what did we do wrong? I don't see any other purpose of Teen Chat then the one we gave it. A place to talk, share ideas and feelings to one another. How did it "degenerate"? Teen Chat was always the same, so I don't know how it "denegenrated" from what it was before? No signature for now, come back later. Oh wait, isn't this one? |
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Phaedrus Member
since 2002-01-26
Posts 180 |
Low Man’s Lyric Teen Chat, Teen Explorer as it was then, was originally conceived as a place where teens could talk about writing. It was envisaged that general chat would be included, the degeneration mentioned is more to do with the manner in which that chat was conducted, the cliques and bickering etc., not the chat itself. As Ron pointed out the chat was bearable as long as it was conducted in a civil manner and as a healthy part of Pip, which is in stark contrast to the isolated and insular forum it became. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Yes, it was a "place to talk" and "share ideas and feelings." But sadly it also became a place to gratuitously swear, encourage others to break the law (drug references), and continuously call each other a vast array of nasty names, either directly or indirectly. Too many of the participants (not all) had virtually no respect for each other, for themselves, or for the rules of this web site. Even most of those who didn't break the rules just sat back and watched it all happen. There were a lot of good things that happened in Teen Chat. I don't deny that. I'm proud of that! But I also don't believe the good things can justify the rampant disrespect. The question is whether we can somehow salvage the good and avoid the bad. Because I refuse to waste my time, or ask others to waste their time, trying to maintain order within a group of people who don't want order. Those who see nothing wrong with treating others like crap will always find themselves treated like crap. There are plenty of places on the Internet for those people to congregate. These forums, however, are for people who want to BE respected and are willing to GIVE respect in return. It's fine to disagree with people. It's even okay to strongly dislike them. But neither of those are justifications for treating them any differently than you would want to be treated. The bottom line is pretty simple. Those who join pipTalk agree to follow our rules. Those who follow our rules will always be welcome to participate. But only those who BELIEVE in our Guidelines, who want to treat others with respect and tolerance, will ever be truly happy here. |
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Low Man's Lyric Member
since 2001-04-03
Posts 236In a dream |
With all do respect Phaedrus, you weren't around PIP long enough to state that all we did was "bicker" and disrespect one another in Teen Chat. I find your comments and support of the closing of Teen Chat somewhat void. Ron - You are right about some of the drug refrences and swearing that happened in Teen Chat, but I disagree with you when you say that we didn't repect each other. Sure we said some nasty things to one another at times, but its impossible for us to sometimes control our outbursts. Everybody fights, its bound to happen. I personally think that we did respect each other, its a shame that any of you don't/didn't see that. One more thing, why didn't we get a notice saying that Teen Chat was going to close? Or atleast a second chance. Someone should have posted something in Teen Chat stating that. I had no idea what was going on, and it did come to a big surprise to me when I couldn't find the Teen Chat forum. No signature for now, come back later. Oh wait, isn't this one? |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
FTR, Low Man's Lyric, Phaedrus has been around almost two years longer than you have. A different username doesn't make him a different person. You said, "Sure we said some nasty things to one another at times, but its impossible for us to sometimes control our outbursts." The clinical name for such a person is sociopath. If you couldn't control your bladder and refused to take precautions, I'd probably ask you not to sit on my sofa. If you couldn't control your outbursts, I'd ask you leave my home. But I really don't think that's what we're talking about here. Being unable to control yourself and being unwilling to control yourself are two very different things. Since the people in all of our other forums manage to control themselves, at least by and large, what you're really suggesting is that teens need special dispensation because they are somehow less than adults. I don't believe that. Not for a minute. Finally, there is little real difference between a warning and a threat. I rarely issue the former and never the latter. I suspect if you get stopped by a cop for speeding, he'll likely feel similarly. You "might" get a warning, but it'll probably be a ticket. It's your responsibility to know and follow the speed limit, not the officer's to stop you and remind you of it. You break the law, you pay the price. It's a little different here, because we're a community, not a society. Cops get paid to do a job. It's their career. Our Moderators, on the other hand, don't get paid. They come here because they like to read and write poetry. They help keep our home clean because they realize the poetry is more enjoyable when it's not surrounded by distasteful clutter. Why should I ask them to spend their valuable time, day after day, over and over, reminding people of the same rules those people broke just the day before? Your attitude suggests you see absolutely nothing wrong with the way Teen Chat evolved. You admit there was swearing and drug references, and figure the name calling was inevitable. Our rules are meaningless. Frankly, that attitude is EXACTLY the problem. Those who don't agree with our rules and philosophies are free to leave. They are NOT free to continuously ignore those rules. Trying to justify the old Teen Chat ain't gonna work. Because I'm not going to buy into uncontrollable outbursts or rules that only hold for adults and not teens. Our focus should be on building a new discussion forum for teens, where those who AGREE with our rules and philosophies can enjoy themselves. Anything else is a waste of time. |
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Skyfire
since 2000-12-27
Posts 3381Riding |
LML, I must diagree with your saying that we all respected each other in there. We didn't. I respected maybe five or six people in there. And they respected me. But there were many others whom I didnt' respect, for various reasons. And why would we get a warning about it? You can't have missed all the disscussions that went on in Teen Chat about the downslide of the forum. I still don't know where all the other teens are. I've tried to find them, but haven't had much luck. I for one would love to see the forum reinstated, but I think that a break is the thing that's needed here. |
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Phaedrus Member
since 2002-01-26
Posts 180 |
Low man’s lyric Fair comment, I’ll leave the outcome in the hands of more senior members and keep my opinions to myself in future. Good luck |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Phaedrus - why would you want your to leave your opinions to yourself? They're always welcome, after all, what else are discussion forums for?  K |
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Phaedrus Member
since 2002-01-26
Posts 180 |
Severn I think I’ve come to the conclusion that the teen forum isn’t worth saving. My opinions don’t matter in the long run so why buck the system I’m happy to bow to superior knowledge |
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kaile
since 2000-02-06
Posts 5146singapore |
Phaedrus, come on, don't be intimidated by my 3500+ post count...  i think it's admirable how you manage to see both sides of an issue..are you a Gemini by any chance? [This message has been edited by faterider (05-05-2002 09:58 PM).] |
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Low Man's Lyric Member
since 2001-04-03
Posts 236In a dream |
I must apologize Phaedrus, when I saw that you were a member since 2002 I asumed that you are just agreeing with everyone about the closing of Teen Chat without thinking of your own thoughts on it. Since Ron said that you had another name before this one, I take back my comment and apologize. Ron - "The clinical name for such a person is sociopath." Lol, yeah I guess we are mentally unstable at times. "Your attitude suggests you see absolutely nothing wrong with the way Teen Chat evolved. You admit there was swearing and drug references, and figure the name calling was inevitable. Our rules are meaningless. Frankly, that attitude is EXACTLY the problem." I didn't say that the rules in Teen Chat were meaningless, thats kind of unfair to suggest that I do think that. Yes I still think the name calling was inevitable, there are people out there who join forums just to cause fights. Awhile back I was at another forum (not PIP, and I won't say where) and 1 person suggested that they should go to the Back Street Boys Forum and cause a mess. About 6-10 other people wanted in so they calculated their time zones to match when they were going to be online, and on that time they signed up and made numerous posts with tons of swearing, bashing and etc. I pretty much saw it all, I read all the posts they made and even though I didn't join in I did find it really funny. Why did they do it? I don't know, but it was funny at the time. I guess what I am trying to say is that, there are people who don't even read the rules on a site even when they join (like me, I kind of glanced at them) and others don't care if there are rules or not because they will do whatever they want to. I guess along the lines of Teen Chat we forgot the rules that were on that forum, and used it as whatever we wanted to. Whats done is done, but I really did enjoy Teen Chat. Skyfire - I liked everyone in Teen Chat, and I still think that we did respect each other there. Just because we used some swears doesn't mean that we didn't. Actually to me (a little off topic but), there is no such thing as "swears". Butt means the same thing as (well you know), and poo means the same thing as (again you know). So why are those words swears when words such as poo, butt and etc aren't? Plus you can use those words for different reactions like; Oh poo, I droped it and Oh "blank", I dropped it. Both of those express the same meaning, frustration of dropping something. Sorry for redirecting this topic, I just had to say that. But just think what I said, I mean years ago "hell" was considered a swear. But now everybody says it, "go to hell" is widely used and I heard teachers use it often. But when someone uses what is considered a swear now gets in trouble, why? Also the "F word" is not a swear to me either, dictionary.com says that one if its meaning is "Used in the imperative as a signal of angry dismissal." That reminds me of "Get lost" or "get out of here" but yet having the F word in a sentence like "F off" is a swear? Sorry about that, I'm just giving some examples of the flaws in our modern language. Years from now those words won't be considered swears anymore because either they will be replaced by other words that sound "bad" or we may actually accept those words as just what they are, words. No signature for now, come back later. Oh wait, isn't this one? |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
You raise a good point about words, and you might be surprised to hear that I largely agree. But your point also demonstrates, I think, what this community is all about. As an ex-construction worker, former Marine, and long time writer, I doubt there are too many vulgar words I haven't heard or used. Like you, I think each can be utilized for effective communication in the right spot. Of course, most people don't recognize the right spot, but use swear words in the same way they use other dull and meaningless cliches. That's just lazy writing. Profanity, like exclamation points and adjectives, loses impact when not used sparingly. Our Guidelines say that we "discourage the use of gratuitous profanity." Emphasis should be placed on "discourage" and "gratuitous." Why? Because as much as we respect words and the power they provide, we respect PEOPLE even more. You may not find a particular swear word offensive, but there are many others who will. Avoiding the use of words that make people uncomfortable is nothing more than showing RESPECT for their viewpoint. Would you swear in front of your rabbi or minister? A teacher? How about on a job interview? I know these forums sometimes feel as if we're sitting in our living room talking with old buddies, or gathered around a pitcher at the local pub - but that's NOT the case. These forums are public, with people of all ages, from all walks of life, and respect demands that we acknowledge everyone's sensibilities. That's really nothing more than practicing good manners. When you care about other people, and recognize their diversity, there's simply no reason to go out of your way to offend them. And THAT is why we discourage gratuitous profanity. |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
quote:Phaedrus - in many instances of life i would agree. in these forums, that statement is 100% wrong. Chris |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
I'm pleased to see this thread taking shape... I wish more teens would join in and give some constructive input, though... Communication is the first step to formulating a productive solution... Where are the rest?? Gotta love those teens...  |
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Jenn Cirrincione
since 2000-07-02
Posts 2107Fl |
Gotta love us...ehhh... no comment on that. Anyway, yes I'm here to take part as, for the next several months I'll continue to be a teen. As for the "knee-jerk" reaction, common sense told me something might very well be afoot. But as far as actual discussion, I never knew it was going this far. Elizabeth, former DM, and I were talking one day, and she mentioned a comment from one of the SM's that looked suspisciously threatening to the "future of the teen chat forum". I read it, and was a tiny bit concerned, but told Lizzy she was probably wrong and the SM was talking about some aspect of the forum, and not the existance of such. I really had no clue, or warning that the forum may be revoked. Personally, I feel that even though many teen members were out of control and immature, the revoking of the forum was equally immature. (Sorry Ron, nothing against you, I just feel that way.) There most be a more civil way to handle things than that. You've all said it yourselves Dm's and SM's are not babysitters, or parents. Why should the moderators act like that now? As if punishing a small child for going into the cookie jar, now none of the children are allowed cookies. I've never really understood that line of thinking. And as to the encouragement of illegal drug behavior, I felt that the thread in which you speak of was heading in the wrong direction, that's a given. But I also saw that many teens were offering alternatives to drugs, and showing how it wasn't the "cool" thing to do (myself included). A few immature individuals left their brains in idle for a few minutes, and as a direct result the whole group of us suffers. There has to be a more enlightened way to fix the problem. "I can't get you out of my head- your love is all I think about." [This message has been edited by Jenn Cirrincione (05-06-2002 10:50 AM).] |
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Marshalzu
since 2001-02-15
Posts 2681Lurking |
quote: I think you will find that this is probably nearer the mark than you expect, I think many thought that there should have been at least a warning or the main offenders should have been targeted rather than the entire community. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Jenn said: quote: Let's change your analogy just a little, Jenn, to eliminate the implication that children have a God-given right to cookies and to perhaps make it more appropriate to the situation. Let's say you put a cookie jar on the street corner and invite the neighborhood kids to partake. You don't have time to stand there and watch all day, but you nonetheless ask that they not eat cookies until after dinner (Teen Poetry), please don't tip over the jar because the ants will get into it, and for heaven's sake, don't throw them at each other (those are really heavy cookies, don't ya know). When you return the next day, you find that several of the kids have broken your rules. You admonish the offenders, upright the cookie jar, clean away the ants, and apologize to the kids with nasty bruises from cruise cookies. And then you refill the cookie jar. This goes on for nearly a year, and every day you find more ants, more bruises, and more and more kids breaking the rules. Your warnings go largely unheeded because, after all, the kids know you can't easily take back a cookie they've already eaten. You know you can't continue doing it alone, so you ask a few of the kids to help. Watch the cookie jar, you tell them, and when they see someone tip it over, please pick it up before the ants can get into it. If they see someone throwing cookies, remind them to stop. You ask for help, several agree to help, and then you stand there and watch a few of your helpers walk over and very deliberately tip over the cookie jar. Right in front of you. Is that a smirk you see on their faces? That slap in the face hurts, but more importantly, it makes you stop and take inventory. When you look around a little more closely, you realize that most of the kids who have been eating cookies are skinny as a rail, gaunt and sallow, and it's clear they haven't been eating their dinner. They've been subsisting on a sugar-high, with no real sustenance, and the only exercise they get any more is to throw cookies at each other. What started out as an adjunct to a healthy lifestyle has turned into something really bad for the very kids you wanted to reward. And it's not even entirely their fault. A lot of the kids would really like to eat dinner, but just don't have room after all the cookies you supplied. A lot of the kids would like to follow the rules, but they've been breaking them so long they've forgotten which rules even matter. It seems they've actually developed a taste for cookies covered with crawling ants? How long would you continue putting cookies into that same cookie jar? We need a new cookie jar, guys. One, maybe, that can be nailed to the ground. And, sadly, we need to get rid of those kids who came into our neighborhood JUST for a quick sugar-high. We need to get rid of the ones who like the taste of ants. They won't be missed. Only then can we make room for those who want a little steak and potatoes with their cookies. |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
That's a perfect analogy. So instead of crying over spilt cookies, guys, how can we go about setting up a jar of raisins(healthy snack). |
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Skyfire
since 2000-12-27
Posts 3381Riding |
"I think many thought that there should have been at least a warning..." There WERE warnings though Andrew. Many of them. How many threads have you seen in there about the direction Teen Chat was headed in? If one really sits down and thinks about what was going on in there, one would see that there were warnings all over the place. I don't know how often you checked in there, but I do know that things started to get really REALLY nasty after you left. But I'm not going to argue with you; we've got different opinions. Raisins? Does it have to be raisins? Anyway, how to set up a jar of raisins? Give Teen Chat a break for a few weeks, let the kids who wanted the sugar high drift off to their own things, and then re-open the raisin jar. That might actually boost up Teen Poetry again too. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like over the past few days, every time I've stuck my head in there, the amount of new posts has increased. That's just my personal observation though. Raisins? |
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LCBS Senior Member
since 2001-11-29
Posts 532Connecticut |
The thing is, once we nail down the cookie jar....what are we going to do to stop them from bruising kids? And when we do replace them with raisins...wht kid is gonna want to come to the cookie jar anymore? We have to find a median.....a compromise that makes both Mature adults and us teenagers happy. Like....you can have a cookie, but you need to have something healthy too. Isn't it key to have "everything in moderation." Ok, so you either understood what I was saying, or you think I'm crazy! ~Lisa |
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Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612Hurricane Alley |
Oatmeal cookies with raisins then? So translate this into a discussion forum recipe and what do you have? |
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LCBS Senior Member
since 2001-11-29
Posts 532Connecticut |
Wow, I love it! Oatmeal raisin cookies! Perfect! so we have: (1) Raisins....a flavorful kick of poetry, a good and healthy snacking food (2)surgar...a taste of ranting and gossipy teenagers stuff....(fat free of course, which means no name calling, swearing, or references to drugs) (3) The correct baking time....give us freedom to "rise" to the occasion (who knows, we might surprise you with how well we bake up) (4) The right heat...with some pressure, we can bake these cookies until every poet on the block has their hands in our cookie jar, and waits patiently and respectfully to get their cookie Did I miss anything? ~Lisa |
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Jenn Cirrincione
since 2000-07-02
Posts 2107Fl |
Well, I understand that. HOWEVER, can we really compare "eating their dinner" to the poetry section? I mean truth be told, we have no idea whether those members read poetry and just don't reply. Can we ever really FORCE those people who partake in teen chat to reply and post poetry? I mean, is that an actual guideline? I'm sure there are a few members who are unregistered who can access the regular forums (discussion) and reply without having the password required for other forum posts. I'm also sure you have many people who frequent other forums while never replying to poems; and/or never posting their own. Does this mean we should close feelings? Or the Alley? Or whatever forum this may also occur in? Is it an actual rule that they must "eat their dinner" in teen poetry so to speak? "I can't get you out of my head- your love is all I think about." [This message has been edited by Jenn Cirrincione (05-06-2002 06:41 PM).] |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Gotta watch those cruise cookies...but the analogy is right on target. We haven't given those who might be away enough time to even discover that the cookie jar has been removed. I feel we will need to keep this thread alive [or ones like it] for a few more weeks, just to see if those teens who came here for poetry first will discover that...poetry, on this particular website, still comes first and I am trusting that just because the forum for chat has been closed, doesn't mean that they have lost the right to use their imaginations, pens, and talents, to post poetry. [This message has been edited by Sunshine (05-06-2002 06:47 PM).] |
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LCBS Senior Member
since 2001-11-29
Posts 532Connecticut |
But as I see it, the Alley and Feelings isnt having a problem...The alley and Feelings have Respect and Tolerance. And that is what Ron and the Mods are trying to say...I think.... ~Lisa |
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DancinQueen
since 2000-07-29
Posts 1092Kokomo,IN,USA |
Well I've been absent for awhile from PIP just because of things not related in any manner to here. But I for one am very disapointed it was removed. For me, it was where I had my chance to relieve stress and just talk about nothing and act like a teenager. Allan mentioned in the DM thread over this topic that before Teen Chat was popular we all expressed things to one another through poetry in teen #3,4,5. My argument is that not all of us can do that all the time. Especially me, I haven't been able to write in 500 years. Teen chat gave me a break from everything. And I know there were a few "sour apples" at times, but you'll have that anywhere, especially among teenagers. And I know that people complained, which irritates me, because if they didnt like what was being discussed, simply dont read it or dont go to Teen Chat. But its hard for some of us to stay in touch with other members without Teen Chat because of lack of resources (being some have MSN, some have IM, ect..) Maybe a Chat section should be opened up for everyone here? I dont know, and I'm sure someone or everyone will have an objective opinion on everything ive said, but its just what I think. **You can't always trust the people you want to** |
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LCBS Senior Member
since 2001-11-29
Posts 532Connecticut |
I actually had the idea of a pip "chat room" type thing before... try here: /pip/Forum19/HTML/000186.html |
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Low Man's Lyric Member
since 2001-04-03
Posts 236In a dream |
Ron - I agree with you 100% about profanity, I do swear from time to time when I talk. Truth is my parents don't care if I swear or not but Im not one of those people who use a swear in every sentence. And I am careful not to swear around people who might get offended like my grand parents for example. One time I was talking in class (everyone else was talking, so it was pretty loud) and I was telling this story to a friend and the teacher over heard it and said "Aaron, I think you can replace those words with more appropriate ones", and I turned around and said "Oh come on, I'm 19 and I think I am old enough to decide what words I want to use or not, besides its not like I swear all the time." He had this startled face on him and he said nothing back, ha ha ha good times... No signature for now, come back later. Oh wait, isn't this one? |
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chasing rain Senior Member
since 2001-05-15
Posts 737Canada |
It's about time I came back, eh? ^_^ I felt guilty about "running away" because I was frustrated with Teen Chat. Frustrated at the pointless threads that were exclusive, inside jokes that were never explained and were really meant for e-mails and the sort...frustrated because what I had known since I first joined pip was now no longer in existance. As more and more teens joined, teen chat expanded. Moreso than teen poetry. No one got to know each other as well because there were so many threads to join. You'd just simply pop in and join the conversations, trying desperately to fit in, only to be ignored, or welcomed maybe once...but welcomes didn't last very long. Eventually, one would form dislikes to certain members, or maybe make a few friends. Either way, that exclusion was never really fixed. But this is only what I've seen so far...nothing incredibly factual. I just didn't want to run away again. All I really wanted to do was write poetry. I really didn't care how many replies one of my poems got because inside, I told myself that the number of replies did not determine the poet. I also noted something. The "newbies" who joined pip have been posting a lot of poetry, but have hardly been getting replies. Replies are there to give encouragement. For me, the replies I received when I first joined pip inspired me to expand my poetic horizons and I improved in those first few months tremendously. But lately, the replies have dwindled in teen poetry due to teen chat, and I guess...in a psychological point of view, the reason why maybe some of the new members are posting so much poetry is that they hope to be recognized, and they believed that maybe they weren't getting the recognition because the people who knew each other in teen chat only replied to their friends' poetry. That's just a thought though, and I know I'm getting off topic, so I'm going to go eat and oreo and go to bed. ^^; Good luck to everyone on this subject. Hopefully, something good will come out of all of this, if there hasn't already. ^_^ -Leah |
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Skyfire
since 2000-12-27
Posts 3381Riding |
LOL Lisa I love it! Too great! Leah, don't feel guilty about "running away". You're not the only one. Glad to see you around again |
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Kit McCallum
Administrator
Member Laureate
since 2000-04-30
Posts 14774Ontario, Canada |
Leah, I think you've encapsulated the feelings of many of the Teens who may not be here any longer to point out some of the things you've noted. I was often disturbed when I'd see a note saying yet another active/regular member was leaving or when I simply noticed that a very active/regular member suddenly disappeared with no known reason. Over time, I've e-mailed several Teens I was close to directly, to try to identify if there was a "problem" at PiP or if they were just moving on in the normal course of their life, which can also happen as lives take different turns. Amongst their own personal reasons, I often heard a variety of things very similar to what you have noted above personally ... |
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DancinQueen
since 2000-07-29
Posts 1092Kokomo,IN,USA |
They never leave for good, they ALWAYS come back **You can't always trust the people you want to** |
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Interloper
since 2000-11-06
Posts 8369Deep in the heart |
Aaron, A wise man I once know told me that using profanity simply showed the world your lack of vocabulary. I haven't used profanity since that day. BTW, I can get my point across just as well, amybe even better, without using profanity and I am much more fulfilled, especially when I see those looks that say "what did he say?" |
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stace_co2003 Member
since 2001-03-30
Posts 497In a dream world |
I'm so horribly confused. I left awhile back because of the immaturaty level, and because I no longer felt wanted there anymore, so I finally decide to come back and visit today and just say hello to everybody, get all excited as the screen pulls up and 'WHAT??" there is no teen chat. Now I do understand that it's gone downhill from when I first joined. It was a fun place to be then, we got to know each other, there was never any real fighting, you could share your soul with those people and none of them would mind. I don't know what ahppened exactly (and I don't think my input is really helping any yet, so let's get to what I really wanted to say.) Even though I stopped going to teen chat, I miss it. I miss my friends that I had made in there. But even I recognize the need to pull it. When the forum becomes much like high school, it's not a good sign. You had cliques in there. Some would swear up and down that there weren't any, but I saw thema ll the time. if you werent apart of the clique, you were nothing. You were ignored. And that is never the way to go about things. So, it is much like HS. But all you have to do is reopen it with more strict rules. I admit that in the venting thread, I said somethings that didn't need to be said, but that was mostly frustration taking over. Let us get to know one another, but yet talk about the poetry at the same time. If you are feeling unsuccessful just think about this: eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. |
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Alexia
since 2001-06-07
Posts 164Sweet And Sassy |
Yeah, Agree with some people in here. I haven't been around piptalk all that much b/c of some of the people there. They were rude and certain people had there own "clicks" and wouldn't worry about talking to anyone else. I think we all did need a break from teenchat for awhile. I think it was closed for the best. But maybe in a few months or something it will be reopened. But then again, us teens usually bicker and call each other names, (Profanity) but I mean thats just how sum of us teens are. Adults can curse but Teens cant? Well we learn our language from our parents and other people. Sometimes it slips. And about the drug thing? What if someone had a problem and they needed some advice? What we can't post something about drugs? Thats in our society today. We should be able to talk freely about it. I mean, not to get anyone to use them but talk about it. Maybe someone is addicted or a friend is, and they don't know where to turn to? Can they come here for advice? I think we should have been able to talk about that sort of thing. I know I would have liked to. I think we should have had a Teen thing for teen's .. 15 and older or around something like that. So we could talk about things, that us teens go threw everyday. But I guess we weren't suppose to talk about that kind of stuff in there? But back to getting to my point, we all have our own opinion's and we should all express them even if it means using vauglar language, but we just can't use that in here. I'm glad you closed TeenChat for the time being. We all needed a break and hopefully when it opens back up (if it opens back up) we'll all get along better since we all had a break and it'll all be for the better. Most of the people left because of what was happening in TeenChat. Alot of people left including myself. Because of the way other people acted. Thats my opinion on the subject. Thanks for listening Alexia aka Megz ¤Smile, because you never know who'z in love with it¤ |
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angel_2401 Member
since 2001-06-12
Posts 131Cincinnati, OH |
I agree with Stacy. I came here mainly for poetry, but I never really came more open with my poetry until I was introduced into teen chat. I left for the same reason Stacy did, we both left at the same time. Then, my school life got the best of me, and I coudln't come to Pip as often, cuz I didn't have time to write the poetry I so loved to do before. I never realized that Teen Chat had become so bad, if I did, I would have at least tried to help the bickering and all. As for Pip itself, when I have time to write once again, I will come back here and share my poetry. Until then, this might be the last post you'll hear from me for a while. Kristin |
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AngelShell Member
since 2000-03-01
Posts 446not heaven nor hell so... |
I realize that I am extremely late in the conversation and indeed in PIP in it's entirety... I used to be a very active member of PIP, posting in the Teen Poetry site almost everyday if the creative juices would allow so...then Teen Chat came along... At first is a was a brilliant idea, there was no where teens could go where they felt comfortable where they didn't have to write poetry...however, after a while, Teen Chat, I agree, turned to mush...there were little groups that seemed to control it and even as one of the earlier instigators of the forum I felt left out...thus my departure from Pip... I agree whole heartedly that Teen Chat should have been closed down because what Teen Chat did was also lower the standard of the poetry being posted in Teen Poetry. People were coming to the chat forum and just flung on unthought, unemotional pieces for the sake of it. It really became quite a sad sight... I think those who are upset about it's removal need to grow up...but then again, that was the problem, they weren't mature. And while I agree that Teens should feel free to bicker as it's what we do best, when it gets to the stage where others feels excluded, surely that's got to be seen as a problem. More power to you for removing it! Don't give it back unless they deserve it! Angel Shell. |
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Skyfire
since 2000-12-27
Posts 3381Riding |
Kudos!! |
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nakdthoughts Member Laureate
since 2000-10-29
Posts 19200Between the Lines |
It seems they've actually developed a taste for cookies covered with crawling ants? Ron, your analogy was so perfect..it's something I want to save for myself for I know someday I will need to read it again or maybe share it with others in my life. Rules and guidelines are here for a reason, and I myself broke them twice... the first when new and without having any knowledge to what I was even doing because I got caught up in the hype of the moment or moments and the defensive mode took over in me. Hopefully I have internet matured since my second explosion of internal hurt and I promised myself it will never happen again. So I can see where once in a while lines get crossed...but after all, this is a poetry site and meant for fellowship and I have been following this discussion and do love reading the teens poetry when there are some posted. I use to be amazed at the long threaded phrase-like conversations going on where the average person reading had no idea what was being discussed..seemed like just joking and flirting and absolutely no way to follow it, as if there was also behind the scene emailing or chatting going on too. So many probably felt slighted when they can't join in. Sometimes that seems to happen other places too but never to the degree it happened on teens. I hope they can resolve it someday soon and find a way to bring it back more into the theme of poetry like many of us do on open, we even respond in poetry even if it is light hearted chatting. I hope I make sense...anyway I thought Rons last response made so much sense, and included all aspects of the discussion. |
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Erin Member Elite
since 2000-06-15
Posts 2527~Chicago~ |
I know I havent been around alot lately but I still want to express my opinion on this subject. When I first started coming to PIP I loved it. It was the only thing I did on the internet. I loved reading the work, posting my work, and having my work read. But now its like I come here once in a great while, its just changed so much. I know I have posted things in Teen Chat that had nothing to do with poetry. I was just bored. And I noticed that there were twice as my replies in Chat then in Teen #5, and #5 had twice as many posts. I dont know if the replies in Teen have gone up since Chat has closed but I know I havent replied or even posted my own work in a little bit. In my opinion there were topics like Vicky's that Kit had brought up, people posted stuff that had nothing to even do with the topic. It went from "what brought us to passions etc., to the movie "Black Hawk Down", to "nicknames". It got to the point where alot of the topics were pointless or somehow the subject changed completely. And honestly I dont think that there is any reason to post anything if the topic is gonna jump from the main subject to something completely different. I know I have done things before like that too. I believe that it was a good thing for Chat to pulled from the boards. I mean if thats what its gonna take for us to realize that we are going overboard with it then let it be. We cant have everything we want. I know I had something else to say but I have a lot on my mind and really cant remember but when i do remember I will be back! ~If love isn't a game, why are there so many players~ |
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JP Senior Member
since 1999-05-25
Posts 1343Loomis, CA |
Just a few thoughts... How many moderators here get paid to do what they do? None? Hmmmm, interesting that they do the job they do for the love of it rather than profit, and yet we suggest they do more by taking on the role of parent so they few in Teen chat can disregard they own obligation to govern themselve's and their behavior? Maybe this is just an old father talking here, but if my teen is being unruly, and I 'steer' her the right way and she continues to be unruly, I do what parents do. I take her in hand and resolve the situation, sometimes she loses privilages... kinda what Ron did. My point? Heck, I rarely have a point, but if I did... The Teen Chat is temporarily gone, it should stay that way for a while longer. No one in PiP world should be saddled with more responsibility to direct the efforts of those using the forums. If the users cannot abide by the guidelines established, than yank the privilages. IMNSHO Yesterday is ash, tomorrow is smoke; only today does the fire burn. |
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Acies
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 2000-06-07
Posts 7665Twilight Zone |
I guess I'm a little late on this but still..... All I want to see is for the teens who obviously care about the current situation (glad to see that the loss of Teen Chat has not stopped them from coming to PIP) to come and share your poems again in Teen Poetry. là où est mon amour? |
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Skyfire
since 2000-12-27
Posts 3381Riding |
It's kind of ironic that many of the people in Teen Chat who pushed everyone else to go to Teen Poetry are completely gone from PIP now that Teen Chat is gone. I know I don't post as much as I should, but I love this place. I don't want to abandon it, Teen Chat or no Teen Chat. |
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PoetryIsLife
since 2001-10-27
Posts 1763...in my boxers... |
As soon as I am able to find the time, and the poetic 'groove,' I'm looking forward to posting and responding to poetry again. I'd never leave pip. How could one?  I miss Teen Chat in certain ways, but mostly, think it's good it's gone. It had lost focus of it's origonal purpose.~Titus Every second that passes you are one second older. You'll never get that second back. |
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Kosetsu Member
since 2001-03-10
Posts 450Alabama, USA |
Hmm... Touchy subject, it seems. I've been a member of PIP for a little over a year..and through low times and high times in my life since then, I've been back and forth. My first poem was posted in Teen Poetry, and every poem since then, aside from the occasional few posted in Dark, was posted in Teen Poetry. I rarely, if ever, ventured into the other discussion forums. As I said, I drifted between here and there. Usually the low times brought me back, because that was where my poetry really hits the strength and emotion that most of my friends seem to enjoy about them. The reason I'm returning now is because one of those low times has hit. Teen Chat faltered. No doubt about that. However, it is true that drugs, suicide, self-harm, and the like are integral parts of our society. I've dealt with all three personally. My poems reflect what I feel. If I'm feeling suicidal...the poem will be about suicide. When that poem is posted, then pulled for its content, I stop posting any other poem with that sort of content. Unless something particularly uplifting happens, that usually means the number of poems I post in a given time drops to only one poem every few weeks, as opposed to 2-3 a day. As for replies...I'll admit that maybe I didn't reply to poems as much as I should have. I replied to the few that truly touched me, or that I particularly found the style amusing. But I read countless poems, and enjoyed many of them. I truly think the replies part is a useless point. It could possibly be said that the only thing that unified much of Teen Chat was when Teen Chat was pulled. I'm not quite sure who mentioned the facts about the discussions being in a closed forum, but I have to agree. Someone else noted, (Ron, I believe) that all a person had to do was sign up for a deputy mod term. Not everyone wants a moderator job, even a temporary one. If I'd ever been offered one, I'd likely have turned it down, simply because I'm not the type of person that likes that sort of responsibility. I think Ron also said there were about 25 deputy moderators from Teen in that discussion. Maybe this is more of a personal problem with those deputy mods, but I for one would like to know why the rest of us at Teen were not informed that such discussions were going on. I found it quite a shock to find my beloved Teen Chat, as chaotic as it was, to suddenly have vanished when I logged in one day. Personally, I don't know where I stand at the moment. All I've got to say at this moment is that if Teen Chat is reinstated, don't name it Teen Chat if you don't want to attract chatters. -Adam P.S. My apologies if this post was as incoherent to anyone as it is to me. Right now I'm just feeling pretty blah, and I have no idea what I just typed. |
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Toad Member
since 2002-06-16
Posts 161 |
Kosetsu It made perfect sense to me, although not a teen (by what seems like a thousand years) I found myself agreeing with almost every point you made, I’ve even raised a few of them myself especially the ‘behind closed doors discussion’ point. My best guess is that Teen Chat won’t make a reappearance under any name and I for one think that that’s a pity, there were a lot of things it could have become beside the chaotic place it eventually did. Personally I believe the blame for that doesn’t rest entirely on the people posting there. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
For clarification, it wasn't me who referenced the Deputy Moderator Forum and earlier discussions there about Teen Chat. Nor did I suggest people should sign up as a DM. Conversations in that forum are necessarily confidential and gaining access to those conversations is NOT a valid reason to become a DM. Those "hidden" conversations tried to fix some of the problems in Chat, and unlike many of the conversations in that forum, they could have been done publicly. But at no time were they meant to be warnings. Warning toddlers when they break rules makes sense because they have limited understanding and a very short attention span. As they get older, however, they should learn to expect repercussions when they break rules. The rules, in a very real sense, ARE the warning. There is a line, albeit blurry, at which point warnings become threats. That's a line I try very hard to never cross, and I'll readily admit that perhaps I try too hard. Maybe I should warn people more than I do. In this instance, however, I don't think it would have made any difference. There were far too many people in the Chat forum who should have gone to a Teen forum and not a Poetry forum. They will be happier for finding a more suitable place to hang, and the rest of us can get back to our real focus. I don't see how a warning, or a long series of warnings, would ever change that. There WILL eventually be a resurrection, and I am still hoping that some of our more responsible teens can offer suggestions on the form that rebirth should take? |
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PoetryIsLife
since 2001-10-27
Posts 1763...in my boxers... |
I honestly wonder if it can be brought anew, reborn, without the same failures or problems that brought it down this time. If you offer a redesgined teen forum, wouldn't the possibility of it degenerating into what it had become still be there, perhaps with more safeguards? The fact that it was a Teen Forum appealed to me, back nearly a year ago, because there weren't any other places like it out there. Thing is, it was for poetry, not the level of idleness that had taken over. The members that used it, including myself at times, for some reason simply weren't interested in discussing poetry. Most of the discussion was of no consequence. A lot of members tried to bring back the poetic part of the discussion, but, mostly that failed. Perhaps warnings to keep the idle conversation to a minimum; more deputy moderators; poetically inclind(sp?) discussion topics that don't fall/drop, but remain there daily as reminders. There could be options. It was an enjoyable place, but, with how much it easily took away from the poetry forum.... I wonder if it needs to be brought back. It was a haven for a lot of people, but the purpose of this site is poetry, not hanging out. Whatever decision is made, I'll respect. Sincerely, Titus Every second that passes you are one second older. You'll never get that second back. |
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