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Passions in Poetry

Would you?

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Poet deVine
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0 posted 05-10-2001 03:30 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

Given the chance, would you want to witness the execution of Timothy McVeigh? Explain.....

I would not. Not only do I think it's gruesome, I don't believe in the death penalty. Seems to me we are doing exactly what we tell criminals NOT to do...kill someone. My two cents.
PhaerieChild
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1 posted 05-10-2001 03:40 PM       View Profile for PhaerieChild   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for PhaerieChild

No, I would not want to witness the execution of Timothy McVeigh, anymore than I wanted to see the horrific acts caused by him in Oklahoma City. I do not believe in the death penalty for the same reason as PdV. We tell people not to kill, but the governments sanction it. I also believe that he should never be allowed out on the streets though, because he is so dangerous. Keeping him locked up is not a panacea either. I don't know what the answer is. My heart goes out to all of the families and survivors of the bombing and can understand their hatred of Mcveigh. Lord knows I may feel the same way had it touched my life so directly. No, I think I can do without witnessing his execution.

How can you save me?
When the dark comes right in and takes me,
from my front walk and into bed,
where it kisses my face and eats my head. Shivaree

Temptress
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2 posted 05-10-2001 05:34 PM       View Profile for Temptress   Email Temptress   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Temptress

I wouldn't want to see it. I think it would be useless to watch. He's being excuted/punished. I think we glorify violence and death enough already. Why add another to the mixture? What would be the point in publicizing the execution?
Alicat
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3 posted 05-10-2001 05:44 PM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

I'm of two minds about this. Personally, even his crime is not as ghastly or disgusting as the media circus surrounding his execution. Smacks too much of Faces of Death to me, only Prime Time and sanctioned by the outraged, voyeuristic masses eager for fresh entertainment...as long as it's not them on the girney.
On the other hand, I feel that criminals and inmates are too coddled and cared for, with those on Death Row (or even lower) having access to facilities that the majority of the populace does without. Hemp rope is cheap and can be reused...
Public executions, despite encouraging the atmosphere mentioned earlier, would serve as a tacit reminder of the consequences of actions...or at least the consequences of getting caught.

[This message has been edited by Alicat (edited 05-10-2001).]

Marina
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4 posted 05-10-2001 06:26 PM       View Profile for Marina   Email Marina   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Marina

Would I want to be witness to the actual execution?  Personally, I don't think I would.

Here in Canada, we do not have the death penalty anymore and haven't had in over 40 years.  I DO believe however in having the death penalty though.  Let me explain why.  

1.  I have never seen a dead man kill again.  Perhaps this opinion comes from the fact that here in Canada we release killers after a VERY short time in prison.  It also makes no difference here whether you killed 1 or 20 people, the sentence is basically the same.

2.  Why should people (particallary the family of the victims) pay to keep some psycho living in better conditions then some honest citizens live.

Further more, I do believe that exections should be shown on public television.  Of course whether one chooses to watch or not is certainly up to the individual.  I do believe it may become a deterant to those who think they will never get caught and it won't happen to them.  I don't know if I could in all honesty be witness to it, but I think that those who commit serious crimes such as rape, murder,child molestation just as examples, should be made to watch it.  I think it may help in their "rethinking" of any thoughts of repeating their actions.

I would very much like to see the death penality returned here in Canada.  We allow criminals far to many rights and not enough rights to the victims.  Our young offenders receive nothing more then a slap on the wrist here for any crime they may commit including rape and murder.

My opinions may sound very harsh to some, but I will not apoligise for that.  After all, we need only be a victim once to know the pain, frustration and anger that comes with dealing with such issues.

Great question Sharon.  I am sure there will be  very interesting points of view on this subject.

Thanks everyone for letting me state my opinions.

Marina

Acies
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5 posted 05-10-2001 06:32 PM       View Profile for Acies   Email Acies   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Acies

I do not believe on the death penalty

No matter what, nobody has the right to take anyone's life regardless of what they have done.  You cannot right a wrong with another wrong.

So, I won't dare see it.

"So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
So long lives this, and this give life to thee."  W.S.

Irie
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6 posted 05-11-2001 01:58 AM       View Profile for Irie   Email Irie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Irie

Nope, I wouldn't want to see any of it. Not even him entering the room.
Not only is the death penaly gruesome, it costs more money to put one man to death than it does to keep 10 in prison for life.
Go figure.
Let them sit and be tormented by the wrong that they have done.

~Sheri

"The things that come to those that wait may be the things
left by those who got there first"


White Wolf
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7 posted 05-11-2001 06:48 AM       View Profile for White Wolf   Email White Wolf   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for White Wolf

I would like to witness the death.  Death is sacred to me.  It is the passing of one's soul to a greater place.  Whether that place is one of bliss or torement.  Personally I think that the death penalty is not used as it should be.  I feel that if you take someone's life that you have forfieted your own life.  As for the expense of the method, I tend to agree with Alicat, a rope is cheaper.  But if that is too cruel for your tastes a good axe will work just as well.  But then again a rope isn't quite as cruel as poison.  Basicly an eye for an eye is what I believe.  If a man rapes a woman he is put away for so many years and released so he can do it again.  Doesn't make sense if you ask me.  I say just take away his ability to rape or have sex for that matter and he can do it no more and he also must make some sort of restitution for his crime.  Anyway I have gotten off of the subject so I will leave it at that.


The White Wolf

If life is just a game, when does it end cause I want to get to what is real.

Severn
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8 posted 05-11-2001 07:34 AM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Hang on - is this execution going to be televised over there? OMG that's revolting.

Purely disgusting...and not just because it's a 'death' either. To televise (assuming that happened) would be to create a sensationalist motivation for the death - harking back to the 'old days' of public executions. A practice 'we' have labelled as barbaric apparently - and I agree...I could go on and on lol.

White Wolf - this statement irks me:

'It is the passing of one's soul to a greater place.'

It's a romanticised view point in my opinion.

K  
Just A Woman
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9 posted 05-11-2001 09:18 PM       View Profile for Just A Woman   Email Just A Woman   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Just A Woman

I would have no problem whatsoever in witnessing it.  It's practically going to be in my backyard.  If I were the family of one of the many he killed I would most likely feel the need to see it done.  I'm only sad that it's going to be by lethal injection.  He deserves alot worse.

"I can't remember if I'm the good twin or the evil one."

White Wolf
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10 posted 05-12-2001 04:37 AM       View Profile for White Wolf   Email White Wolf   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for White Wolf

Severn- I guess it all depends on what one believes.  As for me I believe what I stated above.  First you must take that statement in the context set forth in the next statement or sentence.  In light of this let's take a look at the current situation from my "angle".  First, and I think you will agree, he could never get as much suffering as he has caused.  He will pass into a "greater" place in that this place can and will give him the punishment he rightfully deserves.  So greater in this sense simply means a place where full judgement and punishment can and will be dealt to a measure beyond what we can comprehend.  Romaticised?  I don't really think so.  Hope this clears that statement up a bit for you.


The White Wolf

If life is just a game, when does it end cause I want to get to what is real.

Severn
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11 posted 05-12-2001 07:18 AM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Have to say WW I'm going to keep arguing with you here - lol... (I am afraid this might end up as something you might find in philosophy..)

So Timothy McVeigh will go to a greater place - which translates to a place where he receiving judgment and punishment.

How do you figure that?
Which entity informed you of its truth?
Is there any epistemological reasoning behind that statement?

How do you KNOW that, because I note you don't say 'I THINK this will happen' - you state it as quite factual..and this fact lends itself to the idea that you'd like to watch the life sucked out of a human because it's a 'sacred' process.

Hmmm.

I find your reasoning a little flawed. Simply because it invokes issues of morality here. And the implication that there is one law of morality for all. Which somehow you have absolute proof of. Which I don't think you do - because you are not dead yet and haven't experienced it.

I don't think you can be speaking from a Christian perspective, because one of the main tenets there is grace - and people go to 'hell' because they choose not to love God. (I know - I used to attend church.)

God doesn't send people to hell at all actually - we choose to go ourselves, and we certainly don't go there because of bad deeds. Which can seem like an injustice when we think of the suffering some people cause - but there it is. Good works are meaningless when deciding your place of residence in the afterlife in Christian philosophy.

So what is it? What do you 'follow'? Or have you taken an amalgation of beliefs? I'm just really interested in HOW you have decided that these greater places exist.  


K

All obscurity starts with a danger:
Your dangers are many. I
Cannot look much but your form suffers
Some strange injury
Sylvia Plath

Dee
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12 posted 05-12-2001 07:37 AM       View Profile for Dee   Email Dee   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Dee

No matter what the crime I don't agree with the death penalty. So I could not even consider watching it.

Dee

I wish you every happiness and may you always have the best of the good things in life. a brand

White Wolf
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13 posted 05-13-2001 03:14 AM       View Profile for White Wolf   Email White Wolf   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for White Wolf

As to your first statement Severn, after the one stating you are going to argue the point, yes he will be.

"How do you figure that?
Which entity informed you of its truth?
Is there any epistemological reasoning behind that statement?"

  -First off I was raised in a christian church but my belief system is a bit different but based on the same principles.  The bible does state that after death our spirit or soul goes to a place to be judged and we are rewarded and punished accordingly.  If you would like I can provide verses to support the issue.  As to which entity, are you implying that there might be more than one, well I wold say the bible or the word of God is suffecient enough.  As to the last question I do not understand that large word and have no idea as to what it means but I suspect that I have already answered it.

"How do you KNOW that, because I note you don't say 'I THINK this will happen' - you state it as quite factual..and this fact lends itself to the idea that you'd like to watch the life sucked out of a human because it's a 'sacred' process."

  -Question.  Will anyone who believes something say that they think they know it?  If they do then they have cast the shadow that they are not entirely sure about it and so they are not certain in their belief.  How can anyone truely believe in something they doubt?  And yes, death is a sacred process and should be observed or respected properly, not that I expect anyone to do it just because I believe it.

"I find your reasoning a little flawed. Simply because it invokes issues of morality here. And the implication that there is one law of morality for all. Which somehow you have absolute proof of. Which I don't think you do - because you are not dead yet and haven't experienced it."

  -Well the bible does teach that there is one law of morality for all.  Unless I am misreading what you have said.  As to actual proof, well that is why it is call a belief, no proof is necessary to believe.

"I don't think you can be speaking from a Christian perspective, because one of the main tenets there is grace - and people go to 'hell' because they choose not to love God. (I know - I used to attend church.)"

  -Now I could make many comments on this alone.  I have stated before about where I derived my beliefs from and I am unsure as to which church you went to but I think you have oversimplified the requirements to go to "hell" or "heaven" for that matter.  People go to "hell" because they has "sinned" and the only way to be "saved" from it or to go to "heaven" is to accept God's gift of his Son taking our "sins", He did this through grace, thus making us "clean again".  At least that is what my old church taught.

"God doesn't send people to hell at all actually - we choose to go ourselves, and we certainly don't go there because of bad deeds. Which can seem like an injustice when we think of the suffering some people cause - but there it is. Good works are meaningless when deciding your place of residence in the afterlife in Christian philosophy."

  -No He doesn't but we are all condemned there from the day we are born.  Our choice is to be "saved" or not to be "saved".  Too true about good works earning yourself a spot in "heaven" but the bible does say that you will be rewarded or punished for every deed, whether it be goo or bad.  Again these are the things my old church taught.

Well there you have it.  If you need verses, just let me know I will get them for you.  I was kind of hoping this wouldn't turn into a religous debate but this is kind of refreshing.  Thank you, Severn, and to all of you for tolerating this debate or discussion.


The White Wolf

If life is just a game, when does it end cause I want to get to what is real.

Dopey Dope
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14 posted 05-13-2001 03:37 PM       View Profile for Dopey Dope   Email Dopey Dope   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Dopey Dope

No way, no how......death is not something i'd like to see done to anybody
mariee66
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15 posted 05-13-2001 04:23 PM       View Profile for mariee66   Email mariee66   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for mariee66

This is definitly a touchy subject.  I will not watch the execution, for my own moral beliefs, and for the fact that I think it's gruesome.  Ethically, the death penalty is as wrong as abortion.  Life is life...cytoblast, fetus, neo-nate, child, teen, adult...life is life.  Who are we to judge whether someone is worthy of living?  If you are a pro-lifer, than it must be unequivocally pro-life--no exceptions.  
And I noticed someone mentioned something about purgatory--that is a belief in Catholicism.  I don't believe many other Christian faiths believe in such a place.  From my brother, who is a minister, look at it like this..."your soul can't pray you in to Heaven or curse you to Hell.  Your fate is decided when you breathe your last breath."    
LoveBug
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16 posted 05-13-2001 04:30 PM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

"Thou shalt not kill"... period.

I don't believe in the death penalty. Heck, McVeigh WANTS to die, why should we give him what he wants?

"Men judge generally more by the eye than by the hand, for everyone can see and few can feel."-Machiavelli

Marge Tindal
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17 posted 05-13-2001 05:38 PM       View Profile for Marge Tindal   Email Marge Tindal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Marge Tindal's Home Page   View IP for Marge Tindal

While I have no inclination to want to watch the punishment meted out -
I believe that the law of the land is quite clear on the punishment the man is to receive.

The LAW states that IF you commit murder, are tried and found GUILTY by a jury of your peers, have exhausted the numerous legal challenges to reverse that opinion, and have failed to do so - the punishment for that crime of murder is execution.

In my opinion, we have laws in place that should be enforced.

Titia Geertman
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18 posted 05-13-2001 06:48 PM       View Profile for Titia Geertman   Email Titia Geertman   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Titia Geertman's Home Page   View IP for Titia Geertman

Sentenced in public? Is this the Middle Ages you're talking about?
I'm against the deathpenalty, I think it's useless, it's an easy way out. I think this man should be confronted to what he has done every day of his remaining live, in prison. Death is no punishment, death would be a relief.

Titia

Alwye
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19 posted 05-13-2001 10:02 PM       View Profile for Alwye   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alwye

I am a firm believer in the death penalty.  If one person takes a life, they should give theirs up in exchange.  In fact, since it's done fairly humanely now, it seems to me like the criminal is getting the better end of the deal.  God only knows what kind of suffering the victims of McVeigh's bombing went through before they died.  It also strikes me as somewhat odd that many of you think that staying alive would be a punishment because then the criminal would have time to "live with what they've done" so to say.  In all reality, most of the mass murders I've seen show no remorse for what they've done.  Guilt is absent from McVeigh's mind, he's proved it with his comments. One that made me just sick was him saying that the children that died were just "collateral damage".  Men like him are dangerous to stay alive, because there is always the risk that he will be let out or will escape...and I for one never want to see him hurt another person again.  The death penalty is well deserved and it's a guarentee that he will never kill again.  

*Krista Knutson*

"We can all become what we aspire to be
If Heaven's here on Earth..." ~Tracy Chapman

Dusk Treader
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20 posted 05-13-2001 10:19 PM       View Profile for Dusk Treader   Email Dusk Treader   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Dusk Treader

I believe in the death penalty. I think the justice system needs to be made much more rigid and those who commit crimes must face consequences. I for one don't want tax money that could be used for schools and all number of useful things to pay for some scumball rotting away in prison. Prisoners should never be pampered, I'm sick of that. But that's a different topic.

But yes, McVeigh should be excuted. He shouldn't be given the slightest chance to recreate his past crimes. People who do things like have twisted minds and keeping them in jail will not cause them to repent, more likely it will harden their resolve in what they are doing.

I think we need to get tough on crime. No more pardons, no parole, you did your crime, you pay your fine or except your other consequences.

I wouldn't want to watch him be executed though. I don't think there should be so much media either, except to say it's been done. It could easily teach criminals a lesson... or make a martyr...

Well, I hope that's coherent....

"There's nowhere to set my aim
So I'm everywhere" - Dream Theater

White Wolf
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21 posted 05-14-2001 04:47 AM       View Profile for White Wolf   Email White Wolf   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for White Wolf

mariee66- you stated:

"This is definitly a touchy subject.  I will not watch the execution, for my own moral beliefs, and for the fact that I think it's gruesome.  Ethically, the death penalty is as wrong as abortion.  Life is life...cytoblast, fetus, neo-nate, child, teen, adult...life is life.  Who are we to judge whether someone is worthy of living?  If you are a pro-lifer, than it must be unequivocally pro-life--noexceptions."

  -One question.  What does the bible say about the laws of government?  I think it says something about obeying them or face the consequences of breaking thoses laws.  I will need to look it up again but I can give you a verse or two if you would like.

"And I noticed someone mentioned something about purgatory--that is a belief in Catholicism.  I don't believe many other Christian faiths believe in such a place.  From my brother, who is a minister, look at it like this..."your soul can't pray you in to Heaven or curse you to Hell.  Your fate is decided when you breathe your last breath."

  -I believe you are talking to me on this one.  Although if you reread my earlier posts that what I have said states nothing of purgatory.  I state that the soul or spirit goes to a place to be judged and sentenced accordingly.  I never said or infered that it was a waiting place where the soul or spirit can be saved because when you die it is too late.  The bible does support what I have have said and I don't need any of the ministers in my family or otherwise to tell me what the bible has to say cause I have read and studied it myself.  You made a comment about who's right is it to judge.  Allow me to point out that you have made a judgement on what little I said about the "afterlife" and assumed that I was talking about purgatory.  I would ask that you stop doing this, I find it offensive, or stop preaching about who has the right to judge.


The White Wolf

If life is just a game, when does it end cause I want to get to what is real.

Severn
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22 posted 05-14-2001 08:14 AM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

White Wolf...I'm just popping in for now..so this will be relatively brief. I guess when I look at something like this I become extremely technical in my viewpoints. I think that now you have explained your motivations it becomes clearer to me. Your first comment sounded a little 'mystical' (hence romanticised - that was how I got that impression).

quote:
Question.  Will anyone who believes something say that they think they know it?  If they do then they have cast the shadow that they are not entirely sure about it and so they are not certain in their belief.


Truly, this is an example of my technical thinking. To me it is a question of semantics. In common speech, we say ' I believe' or 'I feel' or 'I think' rather than IT IS. Shrug...the departure you took from the norm struck me.

I myself believe there is only one entity. I have left my hypocritical church but I can't stop believing in God although I question Him constantly and He might not like that lol.

quote:
I don't think you can be speaking from a Christian perspective, because one of the main tenets there is grace - and people go to 'hell' because they choose not to love God. (I know - I used to attend church.)"

  -Now I could make many comments on this alone.  I have stated before about where I derived my beliefs from and I am unsure as to which church you went to but I think you have oversimplified the requirements to go to "hell" or "heaven" for that matter.  People go to "hell" because they has "sinned" and the only way to be "saved" from it or to go to "heaven" is to accept God's gift of his Son taking our "sins", He did this through grace, thus making us "clean again".  At least that is what my old church taught.


In response I guess I will say only this:
"If you confess with your mouth,  'that Jesus is Lord' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.'

It does seem oversimplified doesn't it. But there it is. There are of course numerous verses in there that contradict that though.

K
SEA
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with you


23 posted 05-14-2001 05:04 PM       View Profile for SEA   Email SEA   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for SEA

wow....this makes me so sad and VERY angry....this country is overrun with freaks and killers and baby rapists and and.....UGH!! I think the death penalty is TOO nice. I'm SO sick of hearing oh poor them....that is such doo doo....they commited a crime, a serious one to be on death row....how much do you think it costs to feed those beasts? and they get air conditioning....that's great...and I sit here in California with no air on, beacuse I am "doing my part to conserve" and I roast while they have "rights" ya, really? DOO DOO!! I think he sould die, get a rope and hang his sorry butt. Enough is enough....if you are on death row....you should be dead! Period. all these appeals and doo doo that takes years and years that they get to live and a person died by their crulety gets what?! How is that right?!?! I am so sick of hearing the whiners say they have rights....sorry no, they don't. They gave up their rights when they took a life or rapped a baby.....makes me sick.....bleeding hearts....go see them for yourself....visit with them.....you'd run screaming out of there with a whole new out look on life....and the death penalty....I don't ever want to see someone die, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't happen!! Should it be televised, no that's sick. Little kids could see it.....so no way. Why do we have laws if they aren't to be inforced? Oh he's sorry, he's found God....blah blah blah...load of Doo Doo!!! yea, he's gonna find God.....just as soon as he dies for his crimes.....say what you want, religion shouldn't play into this too deeply....it's a matter of right and wrong....if it was your baby that got blew up in that building, how would you feel? Don't say you'd feel compassion....you'd be mad as heck....because it's not fair! He took lives....he needs to pay.........
(whew...ok, I feel better now LOL)     SEA

[This message has been edited by SEA (edited 05-14-2001).]

White Wolf
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24 posted 05-14-2001 07:21 PM       View Profile for White Wolf   Email White Wolf   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for White Wolf

Severn- I am glad that we could have this conversation.  It is a relief and refreshing to know that some people do try to understand what other's believe and why without them taking it as a threat to what they themselves believe.  I believe that this discusion has accomplished explaining how and where I got my beliefs.  In the beginning I thought I had stated that this was what I believe and I really saw no need to repeat it throughout my post but maybe I could put it in now and then to remind others that I am only stating what I believe.      Thank you for this convesation.

SEA- I can see/read the passion you feel about this.  I also feel this way but atlas I have confined those emotions for those who ask about them.


The White Wolf

If life is just a game, when does it end cause I want to get to what is real.

 
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