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Passions in Poetry

Would you?

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Alwye
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In the space between moments


25 posted 05-14-2001 10:06 PM       View Profile for Alwye   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alwye

Amen to that, SEA.  I agree with you.  

*Krista Knutson*

"We can all become what we aspire to be
If Heaven's here on Earth..." ~Tracy Chapman

Elizabeth
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26 posted 05-14-2001 10:22 PM       View Profile for Elizabeth   Email Elizabeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Elizabeth's Home Page   View IP for Elizabeth

Absolutely not.

I was thinking about this the other day, and you know what I realized? The families of the bombing victims are angry, understandably so, and this is how they are dealing with their anger. They want Timothy McVeigh to suffer as their friends and relatives suffered. In their eyes, he doesn't deserve to live, because he's a cruel, despicable murderer. Like I said, that's understandable.

The thing is, their anger at McVeigh isn't going to magically dissipate when he is executed. It's going to live on a lot longer than McVeigh himself. Every time they think of him, they're going to think, "That sick [insert choice name] got exactly what he deserved! I'm glad he got what was coming to him!" How many of those who want him executed feel that way--revenge, basically--and how many people want him dead so he can't plant any more bombs and kill any more people? Think about that.

Executing McVeigh won't take away their anger and pain. It won't bring their loved one back.

It seems pointless to me.
Elizabeth
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27 posted 05-14-2001 10:37 PM       View Profile for Elizabeth   Email Elizabeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Elizabeth's Home Page   View IP for Elizabeth

Now that I've gone back and read more comments....

Yes, the death penalty would prevent McVeigh from killing again. It would also prevent only McVeigh from doing so. Another person could decide to emulate him and plant another bomb.

I can't justify the killing of another human being. Yes, I know that's what McVeigh did. But I don't justify that, either.
Marge Tindal
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28 posted 05-14-2001 11:36 PM       View Profile for Marge Tindal   Email Marge Tindal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Marge Tindal's Home Page   View IP for Marge Tindal

Elizabeth~
My dear ... it's called justice and it can bring some closure for those families.

Unless you have cried the tears of the victims of such irreplaceable loss from such a despicable deed, I don't believe you can speak for the victims.

And ... before you ask ... yes, I have been the victim of losing someone I loved to an act of murder.

Anger ?  Revenge ? ... how about just plain PAIN of losing loved ones ?

I found it curiously significant that you chose to dwell on anger and revenge and barely mentioned the insurmountable PAIN the famlies and friends of those murdered have gone through.

Lest we forget - 168 people, including 19 children were killed by the actions of this man, Timothy McVeigh.

Timothy McVeigh has lived six years since this brutal act - most of the 19 children never got to see six years.

The man has been found GUILTY and sentenced by the law.
In my opinion the law should be carried out.

I won't change your opinion - and you won't change mine
but justice will reign.

Severn
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29 posted 05-15-2001 12:44 AM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

White Wolf - thanks for your gracious response.   I have definitely enjoyed this conversation lol - I like getting into the nitty gritty and learning about what makes other people tick...

Marge(y) - You say justice will reign. I beg to differ. Justice isn't often served at all. And the law is subjective and prone to change - it isn't a reliable thing. Much of justice is politically motivated, corrupted. I think we (the laymen in the world) like to think of justice as a thing that protects us because it helps us to sleep better (to speak metaphorically). In reality?

It doesn't work like that.
Justice is a tool like any other to be used in controlling our society - it's completely to do with power.

K

mariee66
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30 posted 05-15-2001 07:08 PM       View Profile for mariee66   Email mariee66   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for mariee66

I'd like to clear something up--I was NOT attacking anyone in this forum, so lighten up.  The death penalty IS a touchy subject.  There are so many for and against--it is all a matter of what YOU believe in.  

Back to the purgatory thing--that is the name (in Christianity and if you believe in the place) where souls go to be judged.  Some believe they can pray themselves to heaven and others see it as a "holding" place.  It's all a matter of what you believe.

The Holy Bible is somewhat confusing on some subjects.  Death penalty is one.  It's all on how YOU interpret the writings.

Having taken an Ethics class in college, and debated the death penalty, some things really opened my eyes.  Most people are not aware that it costs more to end a life than it does to keep them in prison for life.  This is because of all the appeals--where our justice system has flaws.

Anyway...enough of my bantering...have to do the work thing...      
Severn
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31 posted 05-19-2001 01:09 AM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

A small thing - this isn't my debate but I have to say that purgatory doesn't feature in Christianity - only Catholicism...

K
Paula Finn
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missouri


32 posted 05-19-2001 03:43 AM       View Profile for Paula Finn   Email Paula Finn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Paula Finn

Would I watch? No...but do I believe? YES!!!!!And not by lethal injection either...my opinion is this...if you have been found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt...you should die the vry same way you murdered...he does not deserve a needle in the arm...what he deserves is to sit in a room...never knowing when...just knowing its gonna happen...viscious? Yes I suppose..cruel? Maybe...Justified? Oh hell yes...this was a well planned deliberate act...not a momentary lapse of reason...he KNEW people would die...he just didnt care...he was making a statement...and he did it with the lives of innocent people...thats NOT the epitaph I want on my headstone...
Marge Tindal
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33 posted 05-19-2001 04:52 AM       View Profile for Marge Tindal   Email Marge Tindal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Marge Tindal's Home Page   View IP for Marge Tindal

Purgatory
Purgatory, in Christian theology, state of purgation, in which, according to the Roman Catholic and Eastern churches, souls after death either are purified from venial sins or undergo the temporal punishment that, after the guilt of mortal sin has been remitted, still remains to be endured by the sinner. The ultimate happiness of their souls is supposed to be thus secured. On the existence of purgatory Greek and Latin churches are agreed, they also agree that it is a state of suffering. Although the Latins hold that this is by fire, the Greeks do not determine the manner of the suffering, but regard it as being caused by tribulation. The Council of Florence (1439) left this free for discussion.

The medieval doctrine and practice regarding purgatory were among the grounds for the protest of the Waldenses and were rejected by the Reformers. Protestants held that salvation had been achieved for humankind by Christ and was obtained by faith in Christ alone. A belief in an intermediate state and a period of education and probation on the other side of the grave has been held and taught in the Anglican church. The British religious leader John Henry Newman drew on the theology of purgatory for his poem "Dream of Gerontius," which the English composer Sir Edward Elgar set to music as an oratorio under the same title.
http://encarta.msn.com/find/Concise.asp?ti=0055D000
HOW TO CITE THIS ARTICLE
"Purgatory," Microsoft® Encarta® Online Encyclopedia 2001 http://encarta.msn.com © 1997-2001 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
=============================================
http://www.catholic.com/answers/tracts/_purgatr.htm
=============================================
brian madden
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ireland


34 posted 05-31-2001 02:56 PM       View Profile for brian madden   Email brian madden   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for brian madden

death often makes martyrs and besides what is the use in one murder for another. That is what the death penalty is... murder.


Personally I think that the entire prison system should be changed. You commit such a crime you give up your human rights.
These people should be forced to live in harsh conditions, hard harbour chain gangs.
Besides death is too quick. I can going to say no more because I am an outsider and this is very much an American issue and I don't want to start a debate off on punishment and prison matters.



"difference between love and comfortis that comfort's more reliable and true
Brutal and mocking but always therea crutch for enmity's saddest glare"

Skyfyre
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Sitting in Michael's Lap


35 posted 05-31-2001 03:20 PM       View Profile for Skyfyre   Email Skyfyre   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Skyfyre

In some fashion, I agree with all of you ...  

Once upon a time, I was a strong supporter of the death penalty as a deterrant.  I tried to put myself in the shoes of the victims' families -- those who lost a wife/husband/parent/child ... and I became angry enough to want to kill the perpetrator with my own hands, in some instances (especially child murders ... I can't even watch these things on the news without getting teary and incensed).

On further consideration, however, what does the death penalty achieve?  I will put all considerations of faith, including heaven and hell, aside for the moment ...

Is it a deterrant?  I don't believe so.  What murderer commits his crime believing that he will be caught?  Somehow I don't think that anyone who believes he has that sort of power over the life or death of another feels any sort of vulnerability to death himself.  Or, perhaps, he is fascinated by it ... and simply too cowardly to commit suicide ...

Granted, one might acknowledge the cost-effectiveness of the death penalty ... but then, how much do all those appeals that a death-row resident is entitled to cost, exactly?  Not exactly a great bargain for the taxpayers ... no more than life in jail, I'd warrant.  

If we want to talk "deterrant," I think we need to impose something even more gruesome than a murderer could imagine.  Medical research, perhaps?  There are thousands of potential cures and lifesaving procedures which only need human subjects to be tested or perfected ... why subject innocents, even volunteers, to this sort of thing when there is such a "deserving" crowd right in the local Pen?  Even better, why not cut open their brains and see what, exactly, MAKES a murderer -- and see if we can prevent it?

... or, for those with weaker constitutions, perhaps chain gangs are the answer.  REAL chain gangs, who do DIFFICULT and DANGEROUS work.  I don't have too many idea on a certain job, here ... anyone want to suggest something ...?

Public executions are definitely not the answer ... medieval, I believe someone mentioned.  We have evolved, I hope ... at least most of us.  Taking pleasure in watching someone die is not normal or healthy ... and if you don't take pleasure in it, why watch it?  To traumatize your children?  

OK, so I'm cold, cruel ... but only selectively.  God help the person who thought to do harm to MY family .... grrrr ...


Linda

bslicker
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state of mind


36 posted 05-31-2001 05:22 PM       View Profile for bslicker   Email bslicker   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bslicker

My answer, in one word
NOT

A smile a day keeps the world in smile's.
Bernie Slicker

anonymousfemale
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Limbo


37 posted 06-01-2001 03:58 AM       View Profile for anonymousfemale   Email anonymousfemale   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for anonymousfemale

I definitely would. To me, the death penality isn't wrong.
Anyway, I'd watch it because I'm a sicko and would love to see that kind of thing.

~AF~

Life is a mystery to be lived, not a problem to be solved."
-Van Kaam

Severn
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38 posted 06-01-2001 07:11 AM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Tell me AF - are you saying that to get attention?

Just curious...

K
Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea


39 posted 06-01-2001 09:21 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Well, I disagree with a lot of things here (no surprise there) but another question has been bothering me.

My initial reaction was 'no' but as a writer, is that enough to keep me away from it? Isn't their a certain obligation involved to go and record your experiences if only to deter others from doing the same and possibly persuade others of the inhumanity of the death penalty?

Brad

PS If you're pro-death penalty, what kind of spin could you put on it if you were actually there?
Greg_s
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40 posted 06-01-2001 10:01 PM       View Profile for Greg_s   Email Greg_s   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Greg_s

I think I'll stay away from the death penalty issue for right now.

So, in answer to the original question (I think), I would not watch the execution if it was televised.  This got me thinking though.  I would posit this:  I think that anyone who wishes should be allowed and given access to watch any execution they please.  Although I don't think this sort of prospect is at all enticing, it seems to me that to interpret the laws and constitution in a fair way, the public should be allowed to watch any execution, if they so desire.

I say this because once a criminal has been proven guily and is sentenced to die, he gives up a certain amount of his rights.  No longer is he allowed the rights of a normal citizen, but instead only has the normal rights accorded to prisoners.  In this respect, I do not think that he would really hvae a right to a private execution.  I would possibly cite something to the effect of the public's right to information act to justify seeing any execution that occurs in America.  The bottom line is, I don't think that the government has the right to deny someone who wishes to view an execution.  And then again, how many people want to?

Once again, I wouldn't watch, yet there seems to be something wrong with not allowing those who want to watch such a privelidge.  

Regardinig Brad's question, I think it would be very difficult to produce an overall objective account of an execution.  I think it should be documented for posterity.  Perhaps video is a better medium.  There is a really great old French film that deals with documentation and medium of such called "La Jette."  I could not perform such a task, I would be much too subjective.
catalinamoon
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The Shores of Alone


41 posted 06-02-2001 04:39 PM       View Profile for catalinamoon   Email catalinamoon   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit catalinamoon's Home Page   View IP for catalinamoon

No I would not watch. I have the worst problem with that, I cannot even watch a good movie that will have an execution scene. It horrifies me too much, the ability of the State, the Country, whoever, to take this into its own hands, and force someone to walk into a room to their death, knowing it, forseeing it.
However, as opposed as I am to the death penalty in general, this is surely an exception. I only wish one of the mothers of the many children killed, could choose and be allowed to do it, herself.
But again, I usually feel that it is wrong, especially in that so many people NOW that have been on death row, are being proven innocent. Think about it. How horrible to die becuase someone thought you looked like someone, or you were in the wrong area at the wrong time. And as a system rebel from way back, it just generally infuriates me when the country takes away the rights of human beings. (not that McVeigh fully qualifies)
 
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