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Passions in Poetry

OK. . . I'm Annoyed!!!!

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kaile
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singapore


25 posted 05-24-2001 11:51 AM       View Profile for kaile   Email kaile   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kaile

im bumping this up because i thought sven has asked some interesting questions and would like to see some responses
Severn
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since 07-17-99
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26 posted 05-24-2001 09:59 PM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Glad it was bumped cause I just noticed this...

How do I know?

Ahhhhhhh...more epistomology! I know because I have read it enough times to assume that it is a cliche. Of course there is no 'knowing' because truth is subjective ra di ra...

But you know as well as I do that really it is.

Of course people can use cliches if they want to - doesn't mean their poetry is going to stand out though does it? Which is fine if they don't want it to.

K
Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


27 posted 05-24-2001 11:51 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I'll keep playing here (K. -- 'subjective'?)

Let's assume that you have never read a poem, newspaper, a book, a sign, let's assume that you never listen to your friends or to Pop music, watch TV or movies, and let's assume that somewhere along the line you learned how to read (Don't ask me how.)

You read a line of poetry:

the first time: Wow, what a striking comparison.

the second time: hey, I've read this before.

the third time: Again? I wonder if this is some secret society's code?

the forth time: Argh, yet again.

The fifth time: Well, maybe they're just starting out.

The sixth time: Why am I reading this?

The seventh time: silence [eyes glaze over and skimming begins]

The moment you skim, the moment you know something's wrong and, in fact, it's beyond cliche, it's become a form of anesthesia.

Brad

Severn
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28 posted 05-25-2001 06:07 PM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA

AMEN BRAD.

FABULOUS.


K

(Nothing insightful to say here - just praise and endorsement heh)
Severn
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since 07-17-99
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29 posted 05-25-2001 06:07 PM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

(oh - of course subjective...or relative if you will)
Dopey Dope
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30 posted 05-26-2001 04:06 PM       View Profile for Dopey Dope   Email Dopey Dope   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Dopey Dope

Brad hit it on the dot....
Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea


31 posted 05-26-2001 05:03 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Quick anecdote:

Remember discussing Medieval Japanese poetry in school and remarking on a particularly striking image (I think it was comparing Cherry Blossoms - Sakura - to freshly popped popcorn or something like that). My professor gave me that, "you should know better than that, Brad" look and pointed out that this was a stock phrase in this type of poetry.  

She was right, of course, I should have read more poetry from that period (I still should). I should have recognized it but I didn't. But I still remember that first time and there's certainly nothing that will delegitimize that first feeling,  but there's a problem. There's only one first time.

Brad

Sven
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32 posted 05-26-2001 08:05 PM       View Profile for Sven   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Sven

Ok. . .

quote:
I know because I have read it enough times to assume that it is a cliche.


That's all well and good, but what about someone else who hasn't?  How are they supposed to know?  What do we tell them when we discover that their writing is, what we would call Cliche?  Read more poetry?  Is that really the only way that we can avoid using cliche?  

And who says that your assumptions are correct?  I know that it's all in the mind of the beholder, but still. . .

quote:
You read a line of poetry:

the first time: Wow, what a striking comparison.

the second time: hey, I've read this before.

the third time: Again? I wonder if this is some secret society's code?

the forth time: Argh, yet again.

The fifth time: Well, maybe they're just starting out.

The sixth time: Why am I reading this?

The seventh time: silence [eyes glaze over and skimming begins]


The first time: Wow, what a striking comparison

The second time: Hey, this says more than that. . .

The third time: Wow, I love how this applies in this way. . .

The fourth time: I never really thought of it that way. . .

The fifth time: Did I tell you that I came up with another thought?

The sixth time: This just gets better every time I read it. . .

The seventh time: This now ranks as one of the masterpieces of literature. . .

That being said. . . who says that you only get one first time?  

Does a poem, or a book get worse each time you read it?  Possibly, if you don't like it. . . but does it if you do like it?  And how do you know what you like and what you don't like?  Is it convention?  Society?  Genetics?

What I'm trying to say is that you can say that "You only get one first time" and I can say "You get lots of first times". . . but who's right?  And why?

Why is a movie like Pearl Harbor which has been called "Trite", "Cliche", and "Unimaginative" possibly going to make millons of dollars worldwide?  

Is it because we like cliches?  Is it because of the hype?  Is it because the world loves Ben Affleck?  Why???

I await your further comments. . .  

-----------------------------------------------------------------

To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world.

Severn
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since 07-17-99
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33 posted 05-26-2001 08:40 PM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Oh it's Ben Affleck for sure. I'm sure we'll never see a movie from Hollywood with the classic love story involved in it called 'Vietnam' either. Sitting here in my little country all I hear is 'Pearl Harbour? Who wants to go see another piece of American nationalistic, propaganda crap?' It's a cliche to us simply because it's another Armageddon/Independence Day with a different stage set. But that is an entirely different conversation too.

Now. Where is your argument going exactly? Are you talking about cliches in your own personal writing or cliches in general?

I think it started out being about one's own personal writing yes? In relation to that then - how does one learn what are cliches IF one wants to avoid them?

THEY READ.

There are NO excuses for not knowing what common cliches are. Read read read read read.

Simple.
It really is.

There is no step to step guide of searching out cliches...I don't think it's too difficult really.

Do we like cliches? I don't think they would've become cliches if we hadn't liked them lol...they get overused cause they sound good yanno. Also, remember I mentioned previously that of course cliches can still get used, but the trick is to use them effectively.

quote:
Does a poem, or a book get worse each time you read it?  Possibly, if you don't like it. . . but does it if you do like it?  And how do you know what you like and what you don't like?  Is it convention?  Society?  Genetics?


This could start an entirely new, long, drawn-out argument. (If Brad got going on it you wouldn't shut him up heh.)

How about Sven - it's a mix of all three..but don't start asking about ratios... heh

K

[This message has been edited by Severn (edited 05-26-2001).]

brian madden
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ireland


34 posted 05-27-2001 07:11 PM       View Profile for brian madden   Email brian madden   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for brian madden

in some sense I feel like the king of cliché god I have written about the same emotions feelings and have latched on to the same words over and over again.

If we taken it into context everything is clichéd all the stories have been written and yet we still do not understand the human condition. Clichés I think are the lazy images that everyone excepts, the hallmark ones about cute bunnies the dark ones about grey skies etc.

We are all guilty of them at some stage but then at times we can tap into a subject that should by now be on the top list of clichés: love. and people go wow that was beautiful. So clichés I think are down to laziness lack of imagination if we really search work at our poetry then clichés will be avoided.


"you are what you own in this land, you can be king and it all depends on the view and what you can see"  Whipping boy

Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


35 posted 05-27-2001 11:12 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I don't have time to go into everything here but Sven, Kamla's right -- you are touching on some points near and dear to my heart.  

Quickly:

On reading:

"That's all well and good, but what about someone else who hasn't?  How are they supposed to know?  What do we tell them when we discover that their writing is, what we would call Cliche?  Read more poetry?  Is that really the only way that we can avoid using cliche?"

--Well, yeah. Read, listen, watch what others do. It's all there. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be a cliche.
  
"And who says that your assumptions are correct?  I know that it's all in the mind of the beholder, but still. . ."

--Why does this bother you? Anybody can be wrong on a specific point. You have to make up your own mind. How does one do that? Does the image or phrase conjure up a vibrant feeling, a newness, or can it be skimmed because it's already been said? Here, the question involves whether you are trying to read the words or trying to get through the words (telepathic empathy).

"Does a poem, or a book get worse each time you read it?  Possibly, if you don't like it. . . but does it if you do like it?  And how do you know what you like and what you don't like?  Is it convention?  Society?  Genetics?"

--Sven, if you have time, please check out the philosophy thread on psuedo-intellectualism. I think, hope my position is clear there.


"What I'm trying to say is that you can say that "You only get one first time" and I can say "You get lots of first times". . . but who's right?  And why?"


--This one's easy. How do you define first time? There is also only one second time, one third time and so forth. To say there are many first times is either to take my sentence out of context (yes, there's a first time for laughter and a first time for crying etc.) or to reify the words to where they no longer have meaning.

"Why is a movie like Pearl Harbor which has been called "Trite", "Cliche", and "Unimaginative" possibly going to make millons of dollars worldwide?"

--It's safe, visually satisfying, and you already know how it ends. It perpetuates the idea of certainty and self importance. Everybody loves that.  
  

Sven, you seem to be searching for some sort of objective foundation (there isn't any), and if so, you are kind of indirectly proving a point I've made elsewhere -- subjectivity needs objectivity to stabilize itself.

But that's another thread.

Talk to ya later,
Brad
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