How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 pipTalk Lounge
 I need your input on this everyone...
 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

I need your input on this everyone...

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 07-17-99
Posts 8273


0 posted 05-18-2000 06:41 PM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Hey guys...I really need your input on a somewhat controversial topic.

I am doing an evil essay on Euthanasia, though I have no right to moan, as I selected it...LOL.
What I would like to know is how YOU feel about it. You see I need to narrow my scope down - my essay is only 2500 words - and I really want as many opinions as possible to get as much info and ideas as I can.

I am interested in how you feel about the moralistic side and whether or not one has the right to choose death if one has a terminal illness. Should there be a degree of pain used as a measure? Does a family member/friend who assists a suffering person to pass away come under the category of a murderer? Etc.

I really would appreciate your help and thoughts on this sensitive topic.

Thankyou all so much.

(This isn't intended as a debate btw - so I personally will not aid in creating it into one...   )

  K


[This message has been edited by Severn (edited 05-18-2000).]
Marge Tindal
Deputy Moderator 5 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Empyrean
since 11-06-1999
Posts 43042
Florida's Foreverly Shores


1 posted 05-18-2000 07:25 PM       View Profile for Marge Tindal   Email Marge Tindal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Marge Tindal's Home Page   View IP for Marge Tindal

Kamla~

I believe in having the right to determine if I live or die under the circumstances of terminal illness.
It should be an individual's right to choose to implement the option of euthanasia.  

If it cannot be administered alone, then assistance might become necessary.
Of course I feel that no one who assists should be labeled ... period !

My children have been made aware of my views and wishes on this matter.  They respect my right to choose and have no qualms about it.
Obviously we would hope that it never becomes necessary to resort to this measure, but we've prepared ourselves in the event that it should become a situation of reality.

Good luck on your paper, hon.
If you have any questions ... feel free
to e-mail me.
~*Marge*~





 ~*The pen of the poet never runs out of ink, as long as we breathe.*~
noles1@totcon.com

Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


2 posted 05-18-2000 07:49 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

I'm with Marge here K., I'd rather be dead than dying. No moral issues involved.
Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 05-26-99
Posts 25869
Hurricane Alley


3 posted 05-18-2000 08:15 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

I believe in the right to a dignified death if someone is terminally ill. It is agony for a family to watch a loved one suffer! I would want to go peacefully after saying goodbye to my loved ones..I'd rather go with a smile on my face than a scream of pain.
Butterflies_dont_cry
Member Elite
since 03-06-2000
Posts 3768
Michigan


4 posted 05-18-2000 11:59 PM       View Profile for Butterflies_dont_cry   Email Butterflies_dont_cry   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Butterflies_dont_cry

Living in Michigan with Jack Kavorkian you hear ALOT of debates and all sides are valid once you start to really listen.  Personally though.... I should have the right to choose, only I can and should be allowed measure the degree of my pain and how much I can endure, If I can't do it myself I should hope someone would love me enough to carry out my wish without ramification.  
Something I heard from "the other side" of this debate was this... If assisted suicide is legalized and I'm dying of cancer, it's taking a toll on my family and draining my bank account, my family wants the pain to end but I don't....what will my decision be based on...Still a personal decision but more factors.  
Sven
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Laureate
since 11-23-1999
Posts 15611
Lansing, MI USA


5 posted 05-19-2000 12:38 AM       View Profile for Sven   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Sven

To go along with BDC, you really have to make your own choice on this one. . . there really is a time that the body just gives up. . . sure, we can keep it alive with machines and drugs, but what good is that?  You can't see, you can't hear, etc.  And what does it do to your family?

And yes, there have been cases where people DO come out of comas and DO snap out of bizarre illnesses... but how often?

I would have to join with others and say that for myself, I would rather it be my choice, and make my family aware of that choice, that should I be beyond medical help, that my life should be ended in a humane and painless way. . .

There you go. . .

----------------------------------------------------------------

 That which gives light must endure burning
--Victor Frankl

Temptress
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 06-15-99
Posts 7276
Mobile, AL


6 posted 05-19-2000 02:15 AM       View Profile for Temptress   Email Temptress   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Temptress

I don't mean to get a religious spark going here, but I believe what I am about to say very strongly because it is what has been taught to me since I was old enough to understand.

Suicide is a sin.  If a person chooses to be put to death rather than suffer a terminal illness I still believe that it is wrong.  If a person slashes their wrists or any other way of self termination, then it is wrong.  I know it is a hard thing to have full faith in God's plans when someone is suffering from a very serious disease, but it has been said we must.  God has the only right to say our lives are over. We are not the the judges or even the controllers over our own lives as we think sometimes. I am not forcing others to believe this very same thing I believe (although it would be wonderful to see that much hope).  I am simply stating what I firmly believe in.  


 Nothing can deter a poet, for he is actuated by pure love. Who can predict his comings and goings? "Thoreau"

Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


7 posted 05-19-2000 10:55 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I share Temptress's views on this subject. I believe that there is a big difference between not keeping someone on life support when a machine is the only thing keeping someone alive and an action that initates immediate death, for example, an injection or the consumption of a 'coctail'. I don't think anyone has the 'right' to deliberately end a life, theirs or anyone elses. The only thing that my conscience would allow would be to remove someone from an artifical means of life support, as a respirator for instance, when real 'life' is not viable any longer, if it is known that that is the patient's wish. It is also a good idea to have a 'Living Will' drawn as documented proof of this desire, as most people are unconscious when they are on artificial life support. I think today that these lines of distinction have been blurred.

Denise
Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 07-17-99
Posts 8273


8 posted 05-19-2000 11:12 AM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

I just want to say thanks for your opinions so far.

K
Sunshine
Administrator
Member Caelestus
since 06-25-99
Posts 67715
Listening to every heart


9 posted 05-19-2000 02:15 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

There is a small faction of physicians out there who "assist" terminally ill patients by 1) allowing them to remain at home and 2) by giving them enough in pain killers that their pain is somewhat eased.  However, there is no "dignity" in being drugged up, but it is the only way the doctors can assist morally and ethically while their [usually long-time] patient withers away.  

Family survivors of terminally ill patients are faced with the fear of "doing what the patient wants" and knowing they will face God later.  They have to say "no" to their loved ones and believe me, they suffer just as if they were the ones suffering from the cancer or the emphysema or any other terminally ill condition.

I want to leave quietly, with dignity.  If that means I have a choice to join God and not put my family members through the decision making process of turning off the machine or pulling the plug, then please, please, follow my directives, which are already in place.  If I cannot support humanity, allow humanity to give me rest.

 Sunshine
Look, then, into thine heart, and write ~~~ Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

poetFemmeFatale
Member Elite
since 07-25-99
Posts 2961
Arkansas


10 posted 05-19-2000 03:18 PM       View Profile for poetFemmeFatale   Email poetFemmeFatale   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for poetFemmeFatale

Might I suggest a wonderful book/movie I saw that comes to mind with this topic?  "Tuesdays with Morrie"....I saw the movie, and I cried through the whole thing, it was so powerful!!  The old man was painfully dying, but remained mentally strong, and before he left, he completely turned a young man's life around, and gave him some powerfully enlightening teachings during his last days.  Please see this movie if you can!  

My personal opinion, follows this book.  I would rather spend my last days, in the comforts of my own home, with pain meds if need be.  Until our last breath is drawn though, should we use each day to it's fullest potential?  Maybe share one last story with our youth, or try to touch one last person before we go?  As Temptress said, when it's our time, in God's will, we will breathe our last breath.  Without the help of modern technology etc.  I like to use the "oldtimers" as an example.  Back then, they died in their homes, sometimes after a long battle with sickness etc. but they died with their family around them, and peacefully I'm sure, with dignity...?  I'm just guessing, I'm only 27.     That to me, sounds better than having my body look like a pincushion from all the tubes and wires and needles in me.  I say, use every last day to it's fullest, and in the event of something extreme like a coma/braindeath etc. just let the body go naturally, and peacefully.  Don't try to keep it alive by way of technology.  Once the brain is dead, what's left of them?  Cold flesh?  It sounds harsh, but believe me, when a "body" is ready to "give up the ghost," it will.  It needs no help or assistance.  Just make me comfortable, and keep me company until I go....Just my 2 cents.  
poetFemmeFatale
Member Elite
since 07-25-99
Posts 2961
Arkansas


11 posted 05-19-2000 03:27 PM       View Profile for poetFemmeFatale   Email poetFemmeFatale   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for poetFemmeFatale

Oh geesh, here I go again!  Let me say, I think it's up to each one individually, as every "death" is unique.  Everyone's situation is different.  Having worked in a hospital for over 3 years, I've seen some remarkable things.  The one that touched me most, was a young man 17 years old.  Horrific car accident that left him in a coma and temporarily paralized. He was in my care for over 4 months, like a vegetable.  His family stayed by his side, unwilling to give him up.  In the evenings after work, I would go visit him, and I would read to him, books that his mother asked me to read.  He withered away to nothing, and all hope seemed lost.  Today, he still comes to visit me from time to time, and he is doing well, after much therapy, although he was left a little "slow", he is alive and happy.  He is one example I know, of how technology today, can be an advantage.  His family still has him, after 4 long months of coma, and he smiles everyday because we didn't give up on him.  So there you go.  I say different circumstances, so to each his own...?  Oi, this is a TOUGH one Severn!  LOL
Temptress
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 06-15-99
Posts 7276
Mobile, AL


12 posted 05-20-2000 12:24 AM       View Profile for Temptress   Email Temptress   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Temptress

I just wanted to say that I think this has been an interesting thread so far. I also wanted to thank everyone so far for not getting annoyed at my voicing a religious point of view.   God Bless.  

 Nothing can deter a poet, for he is actuated by pure love. Who can predict his comings and goings? "Thoreau"

Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


13 posted 05-20-2000 03:53 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher



Based on the assumption that there is a god, one who promotes "freewill," I would think it would follow that we ARE the "judges/controllers" of our own lives and DO have the right to decide. Otherwise, why the "freewill?"

Sudhir Iyer
Member Rara Avis
since 04-26-2000
Posts 7206
Mumbai, India : now in Belgium


14 posted 05-20-2000 08:32 AM       View Profile for Sudhir Iyer   Email Sudhir Iyer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Sudhir Iyer

Euthanasia is a very tricky word, an even more difficult subject to discuss.

Let me start from with an example of giving life. I hope that my reasoning is good and sound.

A baby does not decide to be born. Infanticide is not allowed, and is the most demeaning of all crimes. Now what if this baby is deformed, without eye-sight, without proper legs, or simply is so ill, that all medicine in the world is unable to cure the illness, and the countdown has already started. A baby is not intelligent to choose. Now then the parents choose. How does this decision come about? Is the decision taken because they cannot bear to see their baby suffer? Of course no parent wants his child to suffer. So does one recommend euthanasia, in other words infanticide. No.

But then there is a cliche to all this. Infanticide applies when the child is not wanted to be alive. Euthanasia, per definition is for the terminally ill, where hope of recovery is given up after all efforts have been made. One is immoral, while the other is for the better good. But the decision is a tough one to make, and should be made after all attempts of avoiding it are made.

Tomorrow, people will say, that cripples, and the blind cannot bear the world since they are incapacitated to live so lets give them what they deserve, die with honour...This is not fair, because surgery still can make such cases recover, and also we have seen that with encouragement and surely developed personal character by these people make them toi be much greater than normal human beings like us.

So with each case, this has to be re-examined and then the decision can be made. There is no arbitrary rule for life, and there should be none for death...thats what I believe sincerely.

----------

btw, best of luck for the paper,
regards, sudhir.
Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 07-17-99
Posts 8273


15 posted 05-20-2000 10:17 AM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Lots of thought-provoking stuff here...

Temptress - why should you expect or anticipate annoyance? You are fully entitled to your opinion hon.

Sudhir - most interesting...thankyou!

Chris -  
mariee66
Senior Member
since 01-30-2000
Posts 621
Recess, OfYourMind


16 posted 05-20-2000 09:51 PM       View Profile for mariee66   Email mariee66   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for mariee66

Oddly, I just finished a research paper on Euthanasia.  I had to explore both sides of the issue, so I learned quite a bit on law and points of view.

First let me start with the definition of euthanasia--it originated from the greek language: "eu" meaning "good" and "thanatos" meaning "death."  The exact definition is the intentional termination of life by another at the explicit request of the person who dies.  

I think for many, euthanasia is considered sinful because they see God as the master of their fate.  I will quote something I found while researching--it is a view shared by many Christian and Jewish clergy.  "The natural order of things is not necessarily to be equated with the will of God."  Interesting quote, eh?!

In short, euthanasia has become the option to govern our own lives.  This option is personal and gives us choice over our destiny.  I believe that we should all have the right to choose to die.  If someone wants to live out her/his life, no matter how grim, that is their right.  Those who would rather not should have that right.

I'll give you the name of a book you should look up--"Final Exit" by Derek Humphry.  The one that someone mentioned earlier..."Tuesdays with Morrie" is another good one.  The guy has a living funeral--it's a great read.

A website to check out is the one for International Anti-Euthanasia Task Force.

Hope this helps...if you'd like some of my notes, let me know.  I'll dig them up for you.

Marie~
Dark Angel
Member Patricius
since 08-04-99
Posts 10270


17 posted 05-21-2000 07:25 AM       View Profile for Dark Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Dark Angel

I believe I should have the right to determine whether I live or die, especially if terminal illness is upon me.
  Why put yourself and your loved ones through "hell"? so to speak. Why should they sit there helplessly
watching you die

Now about religion, Jesus chose to die did he not? Yes that's right, but God sent him to die, oh but hang on isn't Jesus ..God?  Sure you might say, but he died to save us, yes but it was STILL his decision right?

So why should it be classed as a Sin?

Therefore I say YES to euthanasia


 Je t'aime plus qu'hier et moins que demain."
I love you more than yesterday and less than tomorrow
(unkown)


jbouder
Member Elite
since 09-18-99
Posts 2641
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


18 posted 05-21-2000 10:07 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

I suppose if a person really wants to die there isn't much that can be done to stop him or her from acting on a thought like that.  I am against the idea of "assisted suicide" which, in my opinion, is little more than a powder-puffing of a form of excused homicide.  I am curious if anyone ever considered that making a move in the direction of legalizing "euthanasia" could be a step in the direction of allowing others to decide when we ought to live and when we ought to die.  What, after all, prevents others from assessing the value of your life based on some generally "accepted" criteria?

When people speak of the "sanctity" of human life they mean that the value human life is set apart from arbitrary valuations by others (and your self, for that matter).  Considering that euthanasia tends to quantify the value of human life ... when you are experiencing X amount of pain/suffering then life may not be worth living any longer ... I am surprised that more people are not afraid of the direction in which the current trend is taking us.

Just an opinion.

Jim

[This message has been edited by jbouder (edited 05-21-2000).]
WhtDove
Member Rara Avis
since 07-22-99
Posts 9561
Illinois


19 posted 05-22-2000 08:14 AM       View Profile for WhtDove   Email WhtDove   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit WhtDove's Home Page   View IP for WhtDove

I agree with Temptress also! God being the one who created all, He being the only one to take life. When we take our life, no matter how we sugar coat that, it is still suicide.

Suicide is taking the life of God's children, and I'm sure He isn't happy about that. We've taken many things today that are not right, and tried to make them right.
It's Satan's way of creeping in and making things "seem" ok, but the truth of the matter is, it is still premeditated murder.

There are all kinds of different aspects in the Bible relating to accidental death and such things, but murder is murder no matter how ya coat it.

I can completely understand someone that's suffering and not wanting to put their families through that. I don't want to suffer either, but I strongly believe that it's God choice. Not man's.

Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


20 posted 05-22-2000 09:01 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

Then tell me: Why is it more right to take the life of an animal? That animal is still "God's" creation. We as people take many things. We take even the breath from the planet which gives us life. Why, or rather how can you draw the line at a human life, when the world itself which we are killing is so much bigger than we?
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


21 posted 05-22-2000 10:37 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Well, Chris, in my opinion, human life differs from 'lower' animal life in that we are specifically made in the image and likeness of God. We have been set over to rule the animal kingdom, one of the priveleges given to us by God. Also, though the 'world' may be physically 'bigger' than we, it does not follow that it is more important or more sanctified than we humans. We are the crowning glory of creation, so to speak, and inherent in that comes not only an elevated status but also a higher level of responsibility to use that intellect in either following God's will or disregarding His will. The choice is ours and it is an awesome responsibility. Like, Jim, I worry about the trend to de-sanctify life by the use of euthenasia, having the quality of life be made the issue of whether life is worth the living or not as specified by criteria put forth by ourselves or others....to me 'others' or 'society' being the most dangerous.

Denise




[This message has been edited by dsnyder (edited 05-22-2000).]
Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 07-17-99
Posts 8273


22 posted 05-23-2000 02:40 AM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

May I just add here (so much for not debating  ) that the actual process of determining WHAT type of murderous death was socially and morally appropriate, according to the church, was determined over several centuries, based on the tenets of the bible - based, not strictly adhered to.

Originally all killing of humans was abhorrent. Then, slowly capital punishment and war became acceptable. Interestingly it took 900 years approx for killing in self defence to become acceptable. These threw the concept of 'ALL killing is wrong' slightly out of kilter. To eliminate this unbalance the killing of innocent humans became unacceptable. Then great debate ensued as to what constituted innocence....Hereby euthanasia, infanticide and suicide were termed direct killings of the innocent - therefore morally and socially unacceptable.

In many cultures infanticide was/is accpetable so as to prevent strain on a deformed/unhealthy child's family - and the child when they grow into adulthood. To most Westerners this concept is abhorrent. In some cultures, it is necessary for survival - and its polar opposite, the ritual suicide of the elderly - such as the Eskimos sometimes practice. Their elderly may expose themselves out in the snow and die if there are population pressures or food shortages.

Murder or survival for the community?

It is also a form of euthanasia, but not the type of death Westerners associate with Euthanasia.

Not all peoples have a focus on the individual as do those in the Western world.

Interesting.

K
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> pipTalk Lounge >> I need your input on this everyone... Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors