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School Days, Mind Haze - please read

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Sunshine
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Member Caelestus
since 06-25-99
Posts 67715
Listening to every heart


0 posted 05-18-2000 11:56 AM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Most of you here know that I don’t post many complaints in The Alley, but I’ve been chewing on this for awhile, and would like to know if I am the one that is so off base.

I recently went to my granddaughter’s school to spend the lunch period with her.  She is in second grade.  Kids LOVE it when parents or grandparents come.  They swarm around you and want to share everything!  Unfortunately, that was the only highlight of the day.

As kids will do, voices raise high with excitement during the lunch hour.  There is a system in the school my granddaughter attends, to flip off have of the lights in the lunchroom as a signal that it is “too noisy”.  No complaint from this grandma!

What bothered me most was what the children and I discussed afterwards.  I asked them “what do you do when the Principal walks in?”  You see, the Principal in my day and age WAS the figure of authority.  We respected him and it was not unusual to lower our voices in his presence.  Now, I watch TV news, read the magazine articles, the papers, etc., but am I THIS much out of touch?  The kids and I continued our conversation:

Kids: We don’t do anything [when the Principal walks in].

Me: You mean you just keep talking?

Kids: Yup.  They can’t do anything to us.

Me: What do you mean?

Kids: They can only tell us to be quiet.  

Me: What if you get in trouble?

Kid 1: Nothing.

Kid 2: If they do anything to us, my Dad will come beat them up.

Kid 1: My dad will shoot them if they touch me!

Me: That’s too bad.  When I was in school, our Principal could spank us if he wanted to, if we were not following the rules.

Kids: They can’t do that to us…our parents will kill them.

So, am I just being terribly frustrated by the fact that it is not the kids who cause the problems at the school…the parents are the ones lacking in authority and sending the wrong message?

Let me add that my granddaughter was not participating in this discussion [thank God.]

Thanks for letting me get this off my chest.

Sunshine



 Sunshine
Look, then, into thine heart, and write ~~~ Henry Wadsworth Longfellow



[This message has been edited by Sunshine (edited 05-18-2000).]
LoveBug
Deputy Moderator 5 Tours
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since 01-08-2000
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1 posted 05-18-2000 04:17 PM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

Well, although I'm not as young as your grandchildren, I am school age, and most kids know that their parents won't kill anyone. I personally think that the school system has improved a bit, teachers don't rule by fear anymore. There's enough to fear in the world without having to be afraid of the people who are supossed to help you. What I do think would be better is if teachers actually knew all the children in their schools. In my little backwoodsy school, this isn't a problem, but it is in many other schools. Well, there's my two cents.

 "We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." -Oscar Wilde
Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 07-17-99
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2 posted 05-18-2000 06:34 PM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

How awful to hear that!
I am not accustomed to a grade system so I'm not sure exactly what that age is - is your grandchild around7-9? I don't think those kids realise exactly what they are saying...and I while it is fantastic that the school system isn't ruled by fear anymore, it would be just as detrimental if all the discipline disappears also...

Discipline to me - while hard to go through as a kid sometimes -  sets you up to cope with the reality of life - lol.

I agree Sunshine, it does come back to the parents to a large degree. How much these kids absorbed of TV and whatnot I don't know. Perhaps the parents are completely unaware their kids speak that way also.

Sigh...

Frustrating definitely...

K


Sunshine
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3 posted 05-19-2000 02:20 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Ah Lovebug, for more "backwoodsy" schools...

Severn, the kids are 8!  And it today's world, that makes them about 16.  I firmly believe they know what they are talking about.  What I don't think they truly understand is, that they are talking about death!  Being more of a parrot and repeating what the parents say, yes, I think that is possible.  But that is what scares me...

I would rather see respect and perhaps a bit of fear in their eyes, than having them know "so much, so young."
lorilockheart
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since 05-06-2000
Posts 206
Alabama


4 posted 05-20-2000 10:03 AM       View Profile for lorilockheart   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for lorilockheart

Sunshine
I hate to tell you, but your fears are realized.  I am a teacher, well, a teacher who took the last school year off thanks to situations like these.

Our hands our tied.  We can't do anything - we can't enforce rules, we can't punish, we can't have consequences for breaking rules, we can't discipline at all!  And therefore, we can't teach.  We can't do our jobs!  

I don't know what has happened in today's world.  In our schools today, the teacher is never right.  The majority of all parents today are down at the schools all the time, complaining about this or that.  "You can't do this to my child."  BLAH BLAH BLAH.  These parents are what is wrong with the entire world.  They teach their children they don't have to take responsibility for their actions. That they can do what they want and get away with it.  I say to them, "GROW UP!"  And I'm sorry if others don't agree with me, but corporal punishment was a good thing.  And another good thing was having God in our schools.  When we forced him out, we began to have problems.  

A perfect example of all of this - look at Jesse Jackson's crusade to help those boys who were suspended from an Illinois school for fighting - that no tolerance rule.  I ask, "Did they not break the rules?"  If so, and they were caught on video in a bar brawl type fight, then they have to face the consequences.  What I want to say to parents - what I want them to remember - is that their kids have choices.  Everyday.  They can choose the follow the rules, or they can choose to break them.  If they choose to break them then that means they also choose the accept the consequences.

Oh, I'm so sorry Sunshine.  Guess I didn't realize how angry this makes me.  I'm just another burned out, let down, broken hearted teacher.  Our educational system has problems.  Especially the Special Ed. program, but I won't go into that here.  

I agree with you, and I have no idea what we can do about it.  That's why I sat out a year.  The question is - am I going back?

Lori
Sunshine
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5 posted 05-21-2000 07:54 AM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Lori, firstlet me thank you for identifying your noble profession.  OK, I'm a dinosaur, but as you, I still believe there have to be consequences.  I saw the early beginnings of the breakdown in school in my senior year...not in my classes; my teachers were elder and respected symbols, but in my younger brother's class, I saw the beginnings of lackadaisical attitude IN THE TEACHERS who were young, just out of college, and apparently wanted life [and financial independence] handed to them on a silver platter.

So what do we do?  I know that some of the principals and superintendents are as frustrated as you are.  Does society have to allow this terrible scenario to play out to what has been foretold, or do we, as grandparents and parents who REALLY CARE take  back and share the discipline that needs to be there so our children will learn that indeed, there are consequences.  Even God has given us consequences.

Lori, I will begin by praying that you do decide to take your convictions and strength back to your community's children.  

And yes, I've some dealings with Special Ed...another whole scenario...

my hat is off to you.  Sunshine
Nan
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since 05-20-99
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Cape Cod Massachusetts USA


6 posted 05-21-2000 09:09 AM       View Profile for Nan   Email Nan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nan's Home Page   View IP for Nan

Sunshine, this topic is naturally near and dear to my heart.  It's VERY frustrating to see the attitude that's permeating our kids in school these days.  It goes beyond those little innocent second graders who do, in fact, have some understanding of what they're saying.  Children are learning that they have all the "rights" in school now.  Well - Guess what - Teachers have rights too.  

Unfortunately we've come to the point where most teachers (and definitely I) won't be alone behind a closed door with a student. My classroom is full of people, but my tutor sessions are not.  I refuse to go to a home where there is no parent - I refuse to allow a "difficult" student to know where my home is - I meet them in the town library.  It's a wonderfully academic atmosphere for them - But how sad that I do that for my own protection... That's not protection from physical harm, either - It's specifically to have impartial adult witnesses about at all times.  All it takes is one child to be angry enough at a teacher's expectations of them to turn on them and make false accusations.  I've seen a couple of very wonderful people forced to leave the profession because of such situations...

What do we attribute this to?? My cursory observations are that parents are definitely the source.  Apples fall only under apple trees.... The generation of parents we are dealing with today is a generation that grew up with free and easy access to drugs.  In a great many cases, we're dealing with children from families where the adults are STILL drug users.  Where is their sense of reality? What are they instilling in their (our) children???  When does their orbit hit its apogee???



[This message has been edited by Nan (edited 05-21-2000).]
WhtDove
Member Rara Avis
since 07-22-99
Posts 9561
Illinois


7 posted 05-22-2000 08:02 AM       View Profile for WhtDove   Email WhtDove   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit WhtDove's Home Page   View IP for WhtDove

Sunshine I agree with you. I have 3 kids. One of them is in second grade. They also turn the lights out if they're being too loud, and have to put their head down.

I think a MAJOR lack of respect for adults is in our children today. I know we also had that sense of fear of the Principal.
Most certainly NEVER talked back to your parents. But not these days.  

I can say for sure it is a lack of discipline today.

I remember the lady in the store, was all over the news, her child was being mouthy and obnoxious and she popped em in the mouth. Well, the cashier thought this was child abuse. I can GUARANTEE this person NEVER had children.  The lady was arrested for Child Abuse.

We're kind of getting stuck in a no win situation these days. If you punish your child, you can go to jail. I tell ya what, you can throw my butt in the slammer anytime, but when my kids need it, they're going to get it. I REFUSE to let my children run around and think they can do whatever they please. Not gonna happen!

Now I know there's a line to punishment also, and some parents do Abuse their children or just flat out don't take time these days and they run loose.

My son is in 5th grade, and his school is very strict in the sense that the children have supervision going into school and coming out of school.

They do set the rules in 5th grade and uphold them. They get suspension, they get after school detention also.

I think God also needs to be incorporated back into the schools. That's enough of my rant for now. But I whole heartedly agree with you Sunshine, they are aware of what they're saying at that age.  It starts in the home. God help us all!
Alicat
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since 05-23-99
Posts 4277
Coastal Texas


8 posted 05-22-2000 10:54 AM       View Profile for Alicat   Email Alicat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alicat

Whoa...in kindergarden, the Principal was GOD...all 6'4" of him to 3' people.  

It was for the politics of the large school system I was from that I moved myself to a small school some 400 miles away while a senior in high school.  Teacher politics and pograms, teen cliques and gangs, and PTA interference and misguided philanthropy burned me out....so I moved from a grad class of roughly 500 to a class of 54.  The classes were smaller, the teachers respected, and I made the best grades of my entire H.S. stay.  Best move I could have made, although the state did dictate that I could not attend classes until someone had guardianship over me.  *shrugs* Good thing my grandparents were close by...

Well, enough of my anecdote.  I must also concur with the above ideas.  It is a lack of respect on all levels.  Teacher-Student, Parent-Child, Parent-Teacher, Teacher-Teacher.  Unfortunately, popularist media and radio have reinforced the idea of total rights sans responsibilities.  For instance, how many movies have been made where children thwart the evil adults, give lip and attitude at every turn, even to authority figures?  How many songs are about respect, and what happens to someone who shows a lack thereof?  How many newpapers trumpet the horrors of our educational system, while ignoring the isolated spots of benevolence?

Too many.


Alicat
Angel Rand
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since 09-04-99
Posts 140
London UK, and Zurich Switzerl


9 posted 05-22-2000 12:47 PM       View Profile for Angel Rand   Email Angel Rand   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Angel Rand

Where as I too am shocked to see the terrible state in some schools, I do not agree with corporal punishment. I have no kids, granted, but having gone to a British boarding school I know what "caning" can do to children. There was none of that in my school since we were an all girls school and things always tend to be a lot milder there. But I had friends whose brothers went to such hallowed institutions as Eaton, Harrow, Winchester and Loretto. The things that happened there were absolutely appalling. The so-called prefects and gods (elected boys in the last two years) were all powerful. If a younger boy misbehaved it was their job (and their pleasure) to cane or otherwise punish that child. These punishments were not reported to the teachers as it was treated as an internal affair. But of course this system has been approved and encouraged by teachers for centuries. If the prefects themselves misbehaved they got a caning from one of the masters (teachers). One of the boys went to complain to his father about how awful the prefects treated him simply because they did not like him. The father replied that in his youth things at that same boarding school had been a lot stricter even and that it had made him the powerful personality he was today. He not only approved that his son should be treated that way but also regretted that the system of punishment had become so slack nowadays (officially, caning or any other kind of corporal punishment is illegal in Britain). That boy never dared to say another word since the father would probably have socked him one for being a "sissy".

What I mean to illustrate by this is not so much the abuse of power but rather how corporal punishment breeds bullies. If you show a child that authority and power comes with caning and/or other corporal punishments, he or she will not learn to respect all ppl but rather that authority and power comes with beatings. And then he or she will become the school yard bully. I seriously do not think that bringing back corporal punishment into schools will solve any problems. How can you expect a child to abandon violence yet at the same time cane him for his misdeeds??
And maybe this is wishful thinking on my part but if my child misbehaved I hope I would have enough restraint and maturity to not "pop him one in the mouth". I am not saying that that is child abuse but again I think it shows a bad example.
And to those of you who mention bringing God back into schools and talk about corporal punishment... How can those two even be mentioned in the same breath? What happened to "if you get slapped turn the other cheek"? How can you teach that this is the way to live yet "pop them one" when they misbehave? How then are they supposed to learn that violence is NOT the answer?
Angel


 "I swear -- by my life and by my love of it -- that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
"Any alleged "right" of one man, which necessitates the violation of the rights of another, is not and cannot be a right." Ayn Rand


StarrGazer
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since 03-05-2000
Posts 696
Texas


10 posted 05-23-2000 07:53 AM       View Profile for StarrGazer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for StarrGazer

Well  ummm  I'm 25  with  4 kids- 9,8,5, & 3  and my children  know to behave in school, I've always  told them if they get in trouble in school they will get in even more trouble at home,I think it is all in how parents  chose to deal with schools in general, and  is not based on the age of the parents that's like saying a 17 year old cannot raise a child properly... I'd have to argue that one I've done it with children that were not even mine (and to brag on myself I think I've done a pretty good job)My children get straight A's,do their homework, respect authority... It is not the age of the parent that  matters, more so the  attitude the  parent  posesses that reflects in their child. Just my two cents- tired of hearing how parents "of this age group do this and their children  act in this manner" fact is it does not matter what the age of the parent is I've seen people my age  who do fit the mold, seen people older that fit the mold... age isn't a determining factor!!! ATTITUDE will either get you everywhere or no where...
WhtDove
Member Rara Avis
since 07-22-99
Posts 9561
Illinois


11 posted 05-23-2000 11:17 AM       View Profile for WhtDove   Email WhtDove   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit WhtDove's Home Page   View IP for WhtDove

Angel there is a difference between "punishment" and "discipline!"

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "caning" someone. I have an idea. All I am saying is that today children are not held accountable for their actions.  They get no reprimand for what they do. So if it goes uncorrected then we are sending them a message saying what you do is alright, and we will do nothing to stop you. Or show you that your behavior is not acceptable.

That is a major problem because these kids DO have the attitude that, you can't do anything to me or...

I am not talking about beating a child for their behavior. I am saying, if they misbehave in school for instance. All they do now is move a peg. That can be enough for some kids though. I don't think my youngest daughter has had to do that, maybe once, but it just devastates her.  Others however, don't care, and get them moved all the time. What is that actually correcting in their wrong doing? NOTHING!

To get recess taken away, or having to put your head down, or being sent to the principal are good. But now days, the principal of the school is seen as the buddy. Not necessarily as an authority figure. Though my children, unless for good, don't want to be sent to him. They do get good notes for good behavior sent to the principal, who in turn calls home to let us know. Then out of those children who had good reports, names are drawn to go to lunch with the principal at McDonalds.

Discipline is gone out of the way at home and in school. Teachers are afraid, they have their hands tied. They can get sued, lose their job and who knows what else.
Lack of God is a big thing. If they were taught of God and what He stands for, I don't think the "morals" of this world would be so off. But that's just my opinion.
I've seen Christian raised kids go off the deep end, and poor kids, with nothing, make it big.  IT IS CHOICE AND ATTITUDE!
It is what we make it.


Starr you're very right! ATTITUDE has a LOT to do with it! Though in my opinion a 17 yr old is not as grown up and wise as they think they are. I've been there. BUT, if the attitude is in the right place, I agree. I think they can do it. It all depends upon where they're going to place their priorities. There are times when a 17 year old can do it, and a 25 or 30 year old can't.

With kids it becomes a matter of putting them first and the rest of your life on the back burner. Some people just can't give up their life and fun for their children. And that's sad.

Angel Rand
Member
since 09-04-99
Posts 140
London UK, and Zurich Switzerl


12 posted 05-23-2000 11:32 AM       View Profile for Angel Rand   Email Angel Rand   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Angel Rand

Caning means taking a cane (usually made out of wicker or bamboo) to either the hands but more usually to their backsides. There are other beating instruments too such as a sort of round flat piece of wood with holes in it and a handle, looks a bit like a table tennis  racket. Again that is used on their bottoms.
I totally agree that children should be disciplined. I just don't agree that that should come in form of corporal punishment as someone above suggested.
Angel

 "I swear -- by my life and by my love of it -- that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
"Any alleged "right" of one man, which necessitates the violation of the rights of another, is not and cannot be a right." Ayn Rand


StarrGazer
Senior Member
since 03-05-2000
Posts 696
Texas


13 posted 05-23-2000 03:56 PM       View Profile for StarrGazer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for StarrGazer

Well I wouldn't personally reccomend  becoming a  mommy at  17  to anyone either,there are lots of mistakes made, I think that holds true  with any parent  though live and learn and  do it right next time. I wish I could say I was a perfect Mommy but I'd be lying through my teeth.

But what I've noticed, where I live at least, is people view school as some kind of babysitter, they expect the schools to teach  their children everything from proper behavior to triginometry and have no rules or respect for school as what it is  not everyone in every counrty is fortunate to recieve the education our kids have availible to them and if parents would become more involved in their schools  a lot of the attitude problems that are present  would  seem to magically vanish.
Ron
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Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
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Michigan, US


14 posted 05-23-2000 05:14 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

I don't care if we're talking about family, business, politics, the military, or education - I believe the only kind of leadership that works is leadership by example. "Do as I say, not as I do" has never worked.

Especially with children.

By the time a child enters the school system, they've already had four of five years of molding. If they have a bad attitude and treat other people with contempt, it's often because they've seen their parents do the same. Or, even worse, been on the receiving end of their parent's disrespectful attitude. Children learn through actions, not through words.

How many of us have called our boss a jerk in front of the kids? How many of us have cussed out that cop for giving us a ticket? And how many of us, when little Junior comes home bearing tales of teacher abuse, give the child our support at the expense of the teacher?

Most of us would be appalled if we saw a father berating a mother in front of the children, constantly overriding her decisions, constantly telling the kids she didn't know diddly. Yet many of us, mistakenly thinking we are supporting our children, do exactly the same thing to our teachers. Yea, teachers make mistakes. And, yea, there are some really bad teachers out there that deserve our attention. Even our anger. But an altercation between parent and teacher should never be seen by a child.

When I ran my own business, I had an open-door policy. Any employee in the company could quickly and relatively easily go around the chain-of-command and present their complaints directly to me. And many did. I would listen, assure them I was concerned, and then tell them I would look into it. I never told them their manager was wrong or over-ruled a decision. But in many instances, their manager would correct the problem after my investigation. And, in a few instances, the manger was replaced. But the manager's authority was never jeopardized.

I think it's perfectly legitimate for a parent to disagree with a teacher. I think it's perfectly legitimate for a parent to feel their authority supercedes the authority of a teacher. But not in front of the kid. If we don't show respect for the people doing a difficult, poorly paid job, how can we expect our children to?
lorilockheart
Member
since 05-06-2000
Posts 206
Alabama


15 posted 05-23-2000 07:12 PM       View Profile for lorilockheart   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for lorilockheart

Sunshine - first let me say thanks.  Thanks for the appreciation and vote of confidence.  We need that sometimes!

Now to Angel.  I first have to say to you that the situation with the schools here in the U.S. can in no way be compared to boarding schools in England.  Sorry.  Totally different scenario.  "Canning" is not what I was refering to with corporal punishment.  

Secondly, at least with corporal punishment, kids felt somewhat intimated by a trip to the principal's office.  What they get now when they are sent there is In School Suspension, Detention, write a letter of apology, BLAH BLAH BLAH - none of this works.  Do you think today's kids are afraid or worried about having to stay after school or sit through their normal school day in a contained classroom?  No way.  And if they have a problem with it, Oh look there's mom and dad down at the school complaining.  

On the religion in schools issue - all of this happens because our society in general has no morals.  Look at our president for crying out loud.  It's the same thing with the Pledge.  Taking pride in one's school, and having class is so very important.  I'm not saying we should teach the Bible.  I'm just saying that God shouldn't be taboo.  We have made God wrong.   It's almost like God isn't even an option anymore.  

I ask you - You seem to know all the things that don't work.  Why don't you suggest some things that do?

Lori
Angel Rand
Member
since 09-04-99
Posts 140
London UK, and Zurich Switzerl


16 posted 05-23-2000 10:53 PM       View Profile for Angel Rand   Email Angel Rand   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Angel Rand

Lori,
Sounds as if I have offended you in some way. That was not my intention at all. I just feel strongly about corporal punishment. I am not sure what that would entail if not what I had mentioned above. And no I do not have the answer to everything, I am sorry if you got that impression. But nevertheless I do know what DOESN'T work.

I had a wonderful history teacher from 7th grade up. He never raised his voice and his manner was always gentle. He treated us with the utmost respect and gave us the feeling that we were future heroes and heroines and were to inherit the world. The way he taught his subject fired our imagination and listening to him was a wonderful experience. When we didn't work hard enough or slacked or did other things wrong, he never raised his voice. Quite in the contrary he got quieter and looked at us with such devastating disappointment that you made sure you worked doubly as hard next time. He was without a doubt the most beloved and respected man in the whole school. He inspired us to do better. Something my manipulative and belittling math teacher never achieved. Sure, she inspired fear but with that fear came bad grades and in my case regular throwing up during breaks.

I do not know what my history teacher's secret was but his system worked. My math teacher's system made me physically sick and it made me fail.

Angel

 "I swear -- by my life and by my love of it -- that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
"Any alleged "right" of one man, which necessitates the violation of the rights of another, is not and cannot be a right." Ayn Rand


Alle'cram
Senior Member
since 02-28-2000
Posts 1827
Texas


17 posted 05-24-2000 03:26 AM       View Profile for Alle'cram   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alle'cram

I'm sorry for the long post, but this is a
real area of concern for me too.

I would like to share the influences the school
system in the late fifties had on my class of twenty three students, from
grades one through seven, our class graduating in 1965.
Mrs. Dial, our third grade teacher gave us Bible verses to memorize
and recite before the other students for extra points. Mrs. Key followed the
same rule in the fourth grade as did Mrs. Caton and Mrs. William's in the
seventh grade. Never mandatory, but always a challenge plus for those of us
who
needed the extra points, always welcomed. Some of the assignments, "The
Lord's
Prayer", another, John 1:1-12, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word
was with
God and the Word was God........."; on and on.

We also said the Pledge of Allegiance each morning. From the third grade we
read a
scripture from the Bible each morning. Each of us taking turns that raised
our hands to
show our reading skills off to the classmates. Not a clue what we were
learning then.

What meat those teaches were feeding us. The scriptures we memorized are
those pertaining to our salvation and serving Jesus, the only begotten Son
of God.
We were taught to be patriotic as we placed our hands over our hearts and
pledged
allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. We sang our school
alma-motta
and learned songs like, "My Country Tis of The, Sweet Land of our Liberty,
of the I
Sing,........".

We were threatened to be sent to COACH DUDE HENDSLEY, for punishment, for
miss-behaving, having no memory of anyone ever having endured that merciless
task! We respected our elders. Some of the students went to Sunday School
and
Church, without parents attending. They wanted to go!!
Through those precious teachers, we were taught morals, God and respect.
God was made a very real part of our learning, without our knowledge.
We were taught to be respectful. What precious teachers God had raised up
for
His children.

Children are taught how to act. Taught to be respectful. Taught manners.
Taught right from wrong. Children will do whatever they think they can get
away with.

At graduation, fifteen of the original twenty-three students that started
in the first grade, graduated together. A "big deal" to us was smoking a
cigarette, having to
swear on our life dare not tell. Halloween, we really showed out. Yelp, we
put catsup on
our math teacher's car. That still haunts me, as he knew the group who did
it.
It did stain his pretty white car! He started parking it outside the window
beside
the class he taught us with the stain in clear view. No words had to be
spoken, if
any of us could have taken that back, we would have. " We were really bad,
huh?"

When God was taken out of the schools, so went the morals and standards.
NO prayer, No Pledge of Allegiance to the flag, no patriotism. AAAhhhh, but
we do have
metal detectors for gun control, that accounts for something, I guess, but
what, accounts
for not being taught correctly. How can a teacher teach correctly if the
tools are
removed from them?

Why do we Americans stand by each election and see our schools ripped of
everything good that this great country was founded on? We don't, but we do
elect the
people who do. School board should garner control within the system. We need
to wake
up to our public officials and government responsibilities, as well as our
local officials
and asked the hard questions before we vote. For starters, do you believe in
God?
Will you put God back in school if I vote for you?

ESP
Member Elite
since 01-25-2000
Posts 2574
Floating gently on a cloud....


18 posted 05-24-2000 04:30 PM       View Profile for ESP   Email ESP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ESP

Well, at the risk of being disciplined via internet, here comes my two cents:

I wasn't taught about God until secondary school(11-18/19years of age). My parents aren't very religious although they are christian. I am glad that the school I went to at age 11 taught about God. It was a boarding school and we had Worship on Sunday, clubs you could join like Christian Fellowship. It wasn't taught about in the class rooms though.
I think they don't take it in the class room cos some people don't believe in it/find it offensive. So they decide they don't want their kid "brainwashed" and out goes your Pledge Of Allegiance etc.
The school system is a delicate thing. I guess because everyone is so different, they all want their kids taught with different modes of discipline, different teaching materials, yes to God or no to God.
I got no answers...I guess as things change and develop the system will settle down and find it's equilibrium. Kinda like a pendulum it is, you know? Let's just hope it finds an equilibrium before too many young minds are wrecked by the lack of it.

I feel for the teachers who want to discipline the kids, teach them through God and all stuff which is forbidden because it works well. To any teachers out there: Stick with it, though you may not feel appreciated. You are the invisible heroes of todays world! Why invisible? Ok, unappreciated might be better. One day you will be recognized, even if only by God.

Anyway, that's my view....

Love and hugs,
Lizzie


 "Poetry is the true expression of my soul, it is my ultimate means of communication. It is my rainbow of delight."
Alle'cram
Senior Member
since 02-28-2000
Posts 1827
Texas


19 posted 05-24-2000 06:00 PM       View Profile for Alle'cram   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alle'cram

Esp, I think your response is excellent. The
days I spoke of above are the long gone days of old, things change, but taking God, the Creator, totally out of schools!! We, as a country, should unite for God,His rightful place back. Those unwilling to honor God should be allowed to do so, for it was He who gave us free will.  I do agree with your comments.
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


20 posted 05-24-2000 06:25 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Two points.

I think equating punishment with discipline and discipline with respect is a serious mistake. Fear gives only a semblance of respect. Remove the thing feared and all pretense of respect goes out the proverbial window. Real respect is not so easily destroyed, and will last long after the object of the respect is no longer present. If punishment led to respect, or even self-discipline, there would be no repeat criminals in our judicial system. I do not believe in corporeal punishment, not for children, not for adults. I agree with others here that physical pain only teaches brutality.

(Addendum: I think the confusion between punishment and respect is an understandable one. While punishment, corporeal or otherwise, never leads to respect, how punishment is administered often can. When we recognize punishment as both impartial and consistent, we learn to respect the person as being fair.)

I believe the separation of church and state is a necessary, even vital, evil. Do you really want teachers in the public education system teaching your children about God? Whose God? While our country may be predominantly Christian, obviously many other religions abound. And even within the ranks of Christianity, there are many, many issues in disagreement. Should a child's belief system be based on what teacher they happen to have in a particular year? Or should that system be based on what the parent believes? Unless you have money or influence, you won't always be able to select your child's public teacher. But you should always (and very carefully!) select your child's spiritual teacher. Freedom of Religion (like every other freedom) carries with it a price - the responsibility of the parent to teach their children within the home. If we abrogate that responsibility, we are throwing away our freedom!

(Addendum: In truth, I think if a parent does a good job during the first five years of a child's life, exposure to various religious beliefs would be a good thing. But few parents teach critical thinking, and fewer still teach tolerance. Heck, many don't even make it clear to child what they should believe!)

End of rant…

(Addendum: Until the next time.   )
Angel Rand
Member
since 09-04-99
Posts 140
London UK, and Zurich Switzerl


21 posted 05-25-2000 12:33 AM       View Profile for Angel Rand   Email Angel Rand   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Angel Rand

Ron, I couldn't agree more!
Angel  

 "I swear -- by my life and by my love of it -- that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
"Any alleged "right" of one man, which necessitates the violation of the rights of another, is not and cannot be a right." Ayn Rand


Sunshine
Administrator
Member Caelestus
since 06-25-99
Posts 67715
Listening to every heart


22 posted 05-25-2000 08:31 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

First I want to thank EVERYONE who came in, read, and read [and read] and posted comments. I was beginning to think me and mine were out there on our own, thinking that there were no more minds that requested discipline [but I should have known better, posting here and all.]

I am not surprised at the multitude of thoughts, comments, [not many suggestions] and reactions.

I guess my eutopia would be:  to allow God back in school - not necessarily taught [choice of church and all] but at least if the kids wanted to pray before test, before game, before lunch...they could, with no "fear" of reprisal and with much consideration for everyone's beliefs.

Next: I would like to see respect back in the schools, from the parents on down to the littlest Kindergartener. Teachers did not get degrees and certificates to become babysitters.  So it goes back to the home discipline.

I would like to see the Principal back up on the pedestal...

I would like to see shared thoughts of children without fear of reprisal...but knowing that words do not need to become swords, and better yet, knowing when to keep one's mouth shut! {There's a lot to be said for listening...}

So without going on and on with my wish list, for I think you all can see where it is going, I do appreciate you ALL keeping this thought process going, and for what good it will do you, my prayers are with each and everyone of you who will end up "doing something about it."

Hugs, Sunshine

 Sunshine
Look, then, into thine heart, and write ~~~ Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

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