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Passions in Poetry

I need your opinion

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Poet deVine
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0 posted 10-10-2000 09:42 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

I need your help!

Fellow members, I need your opinions (like I need to ask!). For over a year, Ive been collecting research data for an article on Cyberstalking and Online Romance Scams. I am taking a long plane ride soon so this is the perfect opportunity to put my thoughts together.

Id like to know what you think of online stalking and online romance scams (I know weve discussed this before). Please dont relate personal stories here I just want opinions.

I received the following poem via email by someone who wishes to remain anonymous. She knew I was working on an article about cyberstalking and romance on the Internet and sent this to me.


I'm tired of seeing people hurt
And poets who exit the scene
And the feelings some are playing
Could really just make me scream

What amazes me the most is
What some do for replies?
Shouldn't comments come on their own?
Not because one has an ego high

Though some say they're leaving
But haven't really gone
And I'm just wondering
Is this a dance and song?

I would hope these others see
That they're headed for the wall
For when playing with emotions
You're in for a great fall

It's not funny to be silver tongued
To play on emotions of the weak
So take your games elsewhere
your lies begin to reek..Now, ladies and gentlemen(yes, it happens to guys). What is YOUR opinion? Have you had an experience with an online Lothario? An internet Jezebel? If you want to relate personal stories, please email me, do not list them here. All emails will beheld in confidence.


RainbowGirl
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since 07-31-99
Posts 3167
United Kingdom


1 posted 10-10-2000 09:58 PM       View Profile for RainbowGirl   Email RainbowGirl   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit RainbowGirl's Home Page   View IP for RainbowGirl

Sharon: I'm off to bed, too much on my mind to give a completely concise reply, but....

Yep, there is a world out there where some give and some take...the givers win because they trust, because they give and keep on giving...the takers: well, I guess they get somekind of comfort from having got what the givers give so willingly...I include myself in the giving group and only when the takers want their last ounce do the givers realise what they gave so freely....

but, what would we be if we couldn't give?

Maybe a strange take on this subject but I would rather have given 150% and end up losing than never have known the power of love, touch and gift of smile or sensory touch...in essense  I can think of nothing that makes me so angry as the one who made me feel so much!

Off to bed...I'm worn out...too many battles to fight these days and too little time to do them justice!

Take care

HUSG
Horizon
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since 10-04-2000
Posts 53


2 posted 10-10-2000 10:31 PM       View Profile for Horizon   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Horizon

I think the internet gives a great oppertunity for people to be something other than themselves.  You can go into a chat room and be anyone you want to be, no one can see you, just your words.

This can be good for a person that may want to escape the normal grind of their world.

But for people that have a hard time distinguishing reality from chat rooms tend to make this their game and their life.

They can get so wrapped up in what they are doing they lose who they really are.  It can come a obsession.

The fact remains their are weirdos outside of cyberland this just feeds their desires and makes it easier for them to stalk and take advantage of others.

Not everyone on the net is weird you can establish wonderful friendships and kindered spirits.  and I think those friendships are just as real as the people I have around me physically.  Unfortunately there are a lot of dangerouse people to look out for.

I think it's so much better to be honest, however sometimes it can hurt you if you cross the wrong people.
  


[This message has been edited by Horizon (edited 10-10-2000).]
Poet deVine
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3 posted 10-10-2000 10:47 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

Honesty is the word for sure! Here's a bit of the article..

"Here is an informal survey posted to find out what people would consider acceptable for a spouse or significant other. Findings, based on about 1,000 replies:

79.7% said it's OK for a significant other to reply to an unsolicited instant message or chat with a stranger of the opposite sex.

75.2% said it's OK to visit an adult Web site.

80.6% said it's not OK to give your phone number to a member of the opposite sex online.

54% said it's not OK to exchange photos.

Nan
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4 posted 10-11-2000 07:17 AM       View Profile for Nan   Email Nan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nan's Home Page   View IP for Nan

I feel that meeting people online is very much like meeting them in "real" time.  You can go to a local bar and meet new people who pretend to be someone other than themselves just as easily.  The bottom line is, spending time with that person will ultimately bring out their actual personality.  No one can maintain a facade indefinitely.

I do believe that more time should be taken to get to know someone "online" and trust needs to be clearly established before meeting... but I see nothing wrong with getting to know others via direct chats...

I don't particularly like the open "chatroom" mode, however.  That's like a local bar to me.  Meeting in an atmosphere where common interests abound... yes, like Passions - That's a different story.  You can observe your "friend" as they comment to you and to others as well - and take your time to become acquainted with them.  

I also think there will be as many successful and unsuccessful meetings this way as any other.  People are people - whether on or offline...
serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
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5 posted 10-11-2000 08:58 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Well, as you know---there's this guy I live with.  And, as you also know, I spend alot of time on the puter, and at night, I generally like to chat on icq.  It used to upset him--but then I pointed out---"Look, they're not sitting in your livingroom.  We don't have to feed them.  They are not loud.
They go home as soon as I wan't them to, and not ONCE has anyone drank up all of your beer."  (except for me, but I'm worthy!)

And as for romance?  Not a very realistic situation for me to think about, is it?  But hey, I can DREAM, can't I?
doreen peri
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6 posted 10-11-2000 09:19 AM       View Profile for doreen peri   Email doreen peri   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for doreen peri

What Nan said.......!!
Poet deVine
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7 posted 10-11-2000 10:12 AM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

A lot of the research shows that lonely people are being preyed on..and used...by 'lotharios' and 'jezebels'....and since it's embarrassing to admit you've been taken, I think the numbers must be higher.

Remember, my son met his wife in a chat room, so I do know it can happen. But my focus is on the negative for this article.  
Dark Angel
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8 posted 10-11-2000 06:35 PM       View Profile for Dark Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Dark Angel

I echo Nan.  
serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
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9 posted 10-11-2000 07:02 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Well, I hate to admit this, grin--means I have to agree with Chris---but there ARE choices....and you can just decide that "No, I do not wish to talk to you..."---as I told one guy, "You know where to go for that stuff, so go there.  I'm more interested in what you have read lately..."  poof.  He was gone.  
RainbowGirl
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10 posted 10-11-2000 09:03 PM       View Profile for RainbowGirl   Email RainbowGirl   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit RainbowGirl's Home Page   View IP for RainbowGirl

I've come back to this topic, not sure why but it kept surfacing in my mind all day...and now in the dead of night when all is quiet, apart from my heart I feel the desire to let my feelings out...ok, it doesn't matter much because after I say this I can choose to never read it again and I suspect I may well choose that option in the cold light of day...

I'm a warm kind of person, love to give and I keep doing it, long past the sell by date because I have faith and trust...but I also know that my kind of faith and trust isn't anyone elses....I keep putting my foot in that damned door to keep it open when in reality I should slam it closed...

A long time ago, when feeling so hurt you would not believe, feeling so unwanted and so totally invisible but also trying to make myself understand that just because I care, doesn't mean others should...I wrote one of those ads, I was mostly just being myself, no picture because I dislike a situation where people immediately say "what do you look like"....I don't know, for me, I think a relationship goes downhill from thereon....I don't really care what you look like, it's that part in the middle that I care about but if you don't give me chance to care about you your outward appearance isn't going to change it, simply because we are now on .."attraction fields"....

I digress....this ad that I wrote, didn't contain an image other than me talking, anyone reading, built up a picture in their own mind, I simply was me...why did I do it?  I guess in honesty I wanted to feel wanted, needed, to make someone laugh, to be me, no ideals, no nothing, just me, yet I hate the idea of meeting someone in a situation that has criterial so set down/laid out, if you like....It was just one of those things that I did, spur of the moment, a lonely, unloved kind of moment ....

Tonight, I picked up the 238th reply and didn't know what to say...I don't like meeting people in forced situations...I'm just me, they're all nice guys...well, most...there are a few that that wrote looking for a mistress and I seemed to fit the bill...but I don't....when I looked I realised that I too had a criteria, good English, spelling, no swearing, kindness, laughter, good humour, love of children and animals....someone that had never tried to document themselves or try to put their ideal in a pidgeon hole but where two people simply met and laughed....

I've rambled and worse still, I replied to each initially but realised that this was not my forte....I always got this feeling that each originator was on their best behaviour...I don't have a set pattern of behaviour, I just don't follow a pattern, I'm just me....I can't supply literature, I can't give an end result or expected definition of what will make me smile....you either do or you don't....some got really angry and abusive, some were really dejected and some tried to blackmail on the grounds that no one ever replied....

I found out that I didn't want to meet people in this type of way...laughter is honest and direct and has no ambiguity....I guess I really mean it has to be natural but that also doesn't mean that they are honest and it spooked me...

I had no idea that a few words could ever get that kind of response....

Do I feel more cherished or needed?  No....just thoughtful that there are so many who want laughter, love and companionship but strangely, they need it aided by a photograph....

Oh well, I rambled again....how nice it would be for me, to have someone want to know who I am by way of communication rather than by the visulisation of a picture....heck, I could send a pic of anyone and only on the day we met would they realise they had feelings for a simple photograph.....but the whole of me was entirely missing...what a waste...

Hope that made sense, if not, it did to me..

HUGS

[This message has been edited by RainbowGirl (edited 10-11-2000).]
Poet deVine
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11 posted 10-12-2000 12:59 AM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

Thank you all for your replies.

I'm especially touched by yours, Cindy. If you were ever hurt by someone online, I'm afraid it would get my dander up..and believe me, my dander is not a pretty sight!

Thank you.
JP
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since 05-25-99
Posts 1391
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12 posted 10-12-2000 03:27 AM       View Profile for JP   Email JP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit JP's Home Page   View IP for JP

The world is full of people who enjoy manipulating and decieving other people.  The internet has given those people easier access and often an open invitation into the lives of people they would never meet in real life.

These folks thrive on the idea of decieving others, making fools of, and hurting them.  We as online junkies play into thier games and encourage them with our Rockwellian naivetee.  We have seen this gamesmenship happen here at Passions more than once, as members built themselves (as one other member phrased it) harems...

The anonymous nature of the internet is a beautiful thing which can easily be turned evil.  Yes, it is fun to visit places and speak to people you would never dare venture to in real life.  Yes, it is fun to become someone else for a while and play a role the devil inside you wants to play.  But, as Nanny said, eventually the truth of it all will surface.  I just pray for those who are trusting to the point where they open themselves up for hurt and disappointment, it is a sad thing, and a heartache for me to witness.


Yesterday is ash, tomorrow is smoke; only today does the fire burn.
Nil Desperandum, Fata viem invenient
Irish Rose
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since 04-06-2000
Posts 10553


13 posted 10-12-2000 07:37 AM       View Profile for Irish Rose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Irish Rose

I could write a book on this, actually I am, but I won't promote it right now!  

I feel so intense about this subject, I feel that if a person's own life, personal relationship, marriage or whatever is secure, there's less chance of turning somewhere else, whether it be a bar, a nightclub, a church gathering or a peace rally      

People take each other for granted, the ones they see every day, they become lonely, disenchanted with life and they do not want to be hurt but the inner desire and need to communicate with another human being is something we all have.

How do you trust someone?  As poets, we should be privy to something rare.  We should be able to see the words and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are real, upon reading them, look between the lines, into the soul.  Many still fail at this and a poem can also be deceiving, sad to say.  

Read enough of anyone's poetry and they would have to be almost evil (or very talented with words) to be portraying something they aren't, at least this is my opinion.

If you reach out and trust someone online and they abuse that trust, it hurts more and why is this?  Because you reveal more this way, it opens you up and if a person is already a trusting person and honest, the results can be devastating.  

If they truly want to know you, see you as you are, time will reveal that, if not, then you haven't lost anything but it still hurts and stings and wounds.  

There's a lot of innuendo on some of the posts that I read, here on Passions, and I wonder is this true, a joke, or are these people trying to tell us they are leaving or hurt because they really did what the poem said they did and if that is true, why post it publicly for the entire world to read?

Personal issues should be dealt with privately, not put out there to get even, or try to gain some kind of reply, or attention. Our poems should be the focal point.

Online romance is still romance, online falling in love can still happen, can be every bit as real, more deep and more special because it has it's roots in the communication of the soul, as well as the heart but the soul more so because something happens when you are alone, in tears, no one can see you, and you release yourself.

It depends so much on WHO the other person is.  If they have integrity, some form of honor, they won't take advantage of you, they'll even leave you if they feel they would hurt you.  If they are shallow or vain they could easily abuse and this makes me so very angry I could write about it all day, but I won't, I'm rambling already.

What hurts more than anything is when they draw you into their life, shower you with attention, and then discover you are a real person who could all of a sudden bring their world to an end if you showed up on their doorstep!!  You find out quickly that you become a choice, someone to be dealt with.

At that point, if you don't have people right there to give you that attention and understanding and if you don't have any faith, you really are left with nothing.

Pictures are nice, but shouldn't be a prerequisite, as someone may have always wanted to know they alone were enough, things like that, or other reasons they dont want to saddened someone with.

But love is love, and it can happen in any form, it's going to survive if it is real, and unfortunately I've seen first hand both sides of the posts Sharon gave us, they are heartbreaking and I would say to the second post....

"did I fail you?  Why are you doing this?"
and
"did I even try to know you?


because someone in this world WILL if you keep reaching out.

The saddest thing in all of this, is sometimes a person misses an opportunity to know what it feels like to be loved simply for who you are and maybe they never had that before, maybe no one ever knew who they really were.


Kathleen





[This message has been edited by Irish Rose (edited 10-12-2000).]
suthern
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since 07-29-99
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on the threshold of a dream


14 posted 10-12-2000 10:29 AM       View Profile for suthern   Email suthern   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for suthern

Can I just ditto Nan? *S* For I certainly can't improve on her response... *S*

Honesty is prerequisite
Hurry has no place
As you get to know someone
Across cyberspace.
WhtDove
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since 07-22-99
Posts 9561
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15 posted 10-12-2000 10:57 AM       View Profile for WhtDove   Email WhtDove   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit WhtDove's Home Page   View IP for WhtDove

JP I think we have that certain "harem" thing going on again around here.
It's sad.

IrishRose, you've said a lot of good stuff.
The problem is they seem to prey on those emotionally weak people. Whether it's people who don't have that support, something in their life isn't right, low self esteem issues, and it goes on. The thing is the people on the recieving end of this issue are being hurt. Dump out some fine flattering words to many people and you've got em hooked. And the sad thing is people truly get hurt and crushed over this because they need to feel wanted or liked, or have that attention.

I do so think it happens to men as well, but more so to women because they are more vunerable in the emotion department.

Paula Finn
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16 posted 10-12-2000 10:58 AM       View Profile for Paula Finn   Email Paula Finn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Paula Finn

Personally I feel like this can be the very best way to meet someone...but only if both parties are totally honest. And thats where the hard part comes in. trusting that other person to be true and honest. Its really not a lot different than meeting someone face to face...they can lie as well. But here you get past the first impression thing that can stop so may relationships dead in their tracks with out a chance. I mean...yeah I can say I am 5'8" auburn and blue and built like WOW...when actually I am 5'2" blonde  
and blue, and just a little soft..thats where being honest comes in. I personally dont lie to anyone.Heck if you dont like what I have to say then screw you. But given half a chance...you can find someone wonderful. Then of course there is the downside...the liars, the dreamers, the ones who jump in and then get cold feet after saying how much they care...those are the ones who give internet love a BAD name...but you have them in real time as well.
As far as cyberstalking...its a very scary thing...especially when you know that some of these people have the knowledge to use your computer against you...to have someone find you no matter what you do...how many times you change I.D's...well lets just say I've been there...no fun at all...and they should be prosecuted just like a real time stalker.
Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
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Southern Abstentia


17 posted 10-12-2000 11:04 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I haven't read everyone's replies because I stopped when I got to Nan -- she said it...

People are people regardless of the venue or medium....

I think though -- the internet does bring out a few opportunities as some have said because of the anonymity of it -- it's almost like asking the question -- what would you do if you could be invisible??

but ultimately -- anonymous or not -- we're just who we are and we can fool some of the people all of the time -- and all of the people some of the time -- but -- you can't fool anybody one on one for too damn long
Ron
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18 posted 10-12-2000 11:41 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

I think everyone is missing an important point here.

First, let me say I agree with just about everything that's been said. On-line romance certainly exists and, while I personally don't think it's an end in itself, I do believe it's as real and powerful as any other prelude to love. It's little different than dating in the sense it's a great way to get to know someone. Indeed, because of the inherently communicative nature of the Internet, it may well be the best way to get to know someone.

I also agree that trust is an important part of the on-line relationship, certainly as much so as in the real world. Failure to extend trust is a very normal self-defense mechanism - sort of like running over the edge of a cliff to escape a sudden sound in the night. In other words, withholding trust to protect ourselves inevitably causes more pain than is prevented. A willingness to trust must exist for any relationship to develop.

So. We meet someone on-line, we extend to them a measure of trust, we get to know them better and like what we see, and a relationship is developed. What then?

Just as in the real world (and as many have mentioned already), not all relationships work. And, just as in the real world, not all relationships end amiably. The original question in this thread, and what everyone seems to be dancing around, was about stalking. There is absolutely nothing wrong with pursuing an on-line relationship with someone. There is a great deal wrong with continuing to pursue an on-line relationship when it is clearly an unwanted intrusion.

And that's where I think an on-line relationship might just differ from an off-line one. When you break up with someone in the real world, as often as not, you and they avoid each other. Even in instances where that's difficult, perhaps because you work together, there is usually a mutual understanding that prevents undue conflict. Not always, of course, but usually.

It seems to me, the Internet is perhaps different. Maybe it's because, in the course of getting to know someone well, we become so accustomed to the tools available - email, ICQ, these and other forums - that we start to feel as if we "own" those tools and no longer need permission to interact with others. Maybe it's because on the Internet, two people who no longer can get along are nonetheless constantly thrown together, almost as if they were still "living together" and sharing the same space. Maybe it's simply because there is a greater concentration of jerks in cyberspace. Whatever the reasons, there appears to be much more stalking, much more harassment, much more aggravation than in real world encounters.

Hell, maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm nave about the real world and just SEE more harassment on the Internet. But, I'll tell you, in the fifteen or so months since these forums opened, I've seen more incidents of stalking - the unwanted pursuit of a relationship - than I've seen in my entire real-world life. Two people strike up an on-line friendship, one of them decides it isn't working, and the other just seems to go a bit crazy. Unwanted emails are sent every hour (which seems to bother people a lot more than I think it should), the ICQ light goes on constantly, and hurtful replies are too often left in the forums.

Part of the problem, I think, is that we're suddenly aware of just how little we really know about someone who might be harassing us. We've trusted them with personal knowledge, where we live, where we work, the names of our families, maybe our phone number - and we find ourselves very afraid of what they can do with that knowledge. The little harassment's seem so much more frightening, so much worse than simply unwanted emails or ICQ alerts, when our imagination is conjuring images of what "might" happen if this person is as dangerous as they suddenly seem.

Stalking and harassment on the Internet are real. I've seen it and I've seen instances where Members of these forums were very much afraid. Did they trust the wrong person too much, too soon? Were their fears the groundless product of an over-active imagination? Was there something they could have done to either prevent or stop the harassment?

I don't know the answers. But I think anyone who has developed or is developing friendships on the Internet should at least think about the questions.

Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
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19 posted 10-12-2000 11:58 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

well said Ron, and you raised some valid points...

but in my humble opinion -- i think the reason that you 'see' more stalking on the net -- is because you 'see' more relationships on the net than in the venue some call 'real' life

we don't talk about things as openly in 'real' world situations as freely as we do here -- again probably due to the relatively anonymous nature of the net...

and I don't think we have front row seats to the dance in 'real' life like we do on the net

having been 'stalked' in 'real' life, and even been in situations where I may have been the 'stalker' I can't say that the medium is the culprit

the very notion of 'stalking' is too vague to even nail down.... it's kinda like pornography -- people know it when they see it -- but not everybody sees it the same...

when is it stalking and when is it just being persistent -- it's not like everybody who ever broke up stayed broke up...

like ol rev al said..

why?

people wanna break up?

turn around and make up?

I just can't see

eee

eee

eeeeee

lol...

just my perspective -- but you were right to refocus us back on the stalking issue
Ron
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20 posted 10-12-2000 12:48 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
when is it stalking and when is it just being persistent


When is it rape and when is it consensual? I'm not suggesting you mean it this way, but the old "she didn't really mean 'No'" excuse has come and gone and should definitely stay gone. No has to mean No every single time. Without exception. Sadly, one can use "persistence" as an excuse for anything.

When someone suggests they need "time away," says they think "we should cool it," or just plain says the friendship is over, then any contact is questionable and contacts more frequent than reasonable (say, weekly or monthly) are beyond questionable. That's stalking.

I think it's fine to open the door to discussion. I don't think it's fine to try pushing someone through the door. People who get back together do so through a mutual desire to be together, and while I'll admit timing is important and making yourself available is critical, anything beyond that smacks of manipulation. Calling someone twice a day to see if they've changed their mind, especially when asked not to do so, is harassment, plain and simple.
Local Rebel
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21 posted 10-12-2000 01:07 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I hate to disagree with you Ron -- and I know you're not equating 'stalking' and rape -- but, true story...

a young lady I was once dating suddenly stopped returning my phone calls for no apparant reason

I went to her apartment .... she wasn't there

I called her at work ... she wasn't there

I left her message after message

I finally called her at her parents house -- and yep -- that's where she was

but she didn't want to talk to me

so... a few days later I called again

she finally talked to me -- but to tell me not to call her anymore -- she still didn't say why...

so.... I showed up at her parents house with a handful of roses...

she came out -- we talked

about a year later we were married (but I don't want to get into that mistake)

she could have just as easily -- under current stalker laws -- called the police and had me arrested...

so... I have to ask again -- when is it stalking?  when is it romance?
Ron
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Michigan, US


22 posted 10-12-2000 01:49 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

In your example, it didn't become harassment (in my opinion) until she told you not to call her any more. Prior to that, you were simply trying to track down a missing friend, something not at all uncommon. After she made her wishes known, however, I think you crossed a dangerous line. Stalking is rarely defined by a single incident, which is what your story indicates it was, but had you continued in spite of her wishes I personally think it would have been wrong. Very wrong.

There are exceptions, of course, to every rule - and too many people will try to use those exceptions to justify unacceptable behavior. I believe that if someone says No, we should assume they mean it. And if we truly believe they don't really mean it, then we should run like Hell. Because someone that manipulative is going to bring only misery. IMHO.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


23 posted 10-12-2000 02:03 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

On that we surely agree Ron... we surely do... lol
Irish Rose
Member Patricius
since 04-06-2000
Posts 10553


24 posted 10-12-2000 02:55 PM       View Profile for Irish Rose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Irish Rose

Ron said it extremely well, and thank you, Ron.  It's when they go against your wishes, that's when you should know.  Then, at that point, you know that you are not to trust the person because they didn't respect your wishes and therefore, no kind of friendship, romantic or otherwise is really possible.
Great informative thread and so needed for these times we live in.  

Kathleen

 
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