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Passions in Poetry

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firejerm
Member
since 06-13-2000
Posts 216
Springfield, OH, good ol USA


0 posted 02-04-2001 05:29 PM       View Profile for firejerm   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for firejerm

It seems that once again one of my works not only has been censored here, but removed completely. Some of you read and replied to my topic "Tears and Blood" and I thank you so much for your positive responses. It's a shame that the editors here are fearful of dealing with the actual life issues that we live every day. Suicide is VERY real, and it isn't the first time I've seen suicide and death discussed in prose throughout these forums. Some even more graphic than what I depicted, yet my work gets completely removed from this forum. I'm tired of this and I hope others will stand up for what realityphobics see has "Unfit" due to this, that, and the other. I suggested to the net nanny here that perhaps "Dark Passions #3" the title should be removed because it truly insinuates material of adult and mature nature. If we're living in a glass house, we shouldn't be throwing stones at each other. I'm sorry that real life scares some of you, but I've noticed I'm not alone in my darkness here. I'm hoping you will support me in one of the basic rights given to us by our nations Constitution. I used no profanity, pornography, or anything else that strays from the realness of every day life in Tears and Blood. Angry? You bet I am, and regardless of what anyone says, I've been wronged here. See ya "Dark Passions".

Jeremy T. Sellers
are you sure this signature isn't graphic, it clearly depicts the loathing of death?
2/4/01

"Those little slices of death, how I loathe them."
-Edgar Allen Poe
Dark_kisses_Within
Senior Member
since 03-21-2000
Posts 678
Kansas


1 posted 02-04-2001 05:47 PM       View Profile for Dark_kisses_Within   Email Dark_kisses_Within   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Dark_kisses_Within's Home Page   View IP for Dark_kisses_Within

I agree with ya Jeremy.  The piece that was taken out was very real.  It didnt actually talk about cutting wrists ect ect.  It was more of a *mind* thing to me.  So many read poems in so many different ways.  What the writer meant when writing it could be taken as something else by each reader.  
Hmmmmmm what to do what to do ....

Mags
Scarlet Lady
Member
since 02-11-2000
Posts 247
Midwest


2 posted 02-04-2001 06:15 PM       View Profile for Scarlet Lady   Email Scarlet Lady   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Scarlet Lady

I believe it is one thing to "glorify" a subject and another to "deal" with it.  I felt your poem was appropriately dealing with it in showing  the reality, but NEVER once glorified it in anyway.  I really feel like this was a bad judgment call to yank this piece.  I too have seen some very questionable poetry go untouched,  while others were taken off?  Puzzling....hmmmmmmmmm?  I think that you are right concerning the nature of this forum being "mature".  I know that I have many times had to write something differently just so I could post it.  It would be a darker room if it were true to it's name and no censorship remained!  I stand with you on this one, and hope they hear you and NOT shut you out!  It will be a shame if they do! I for one think you have voiced the opinion of many here!  
Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 05-26-99
Posts 25869
Hurricane Alley


3 posted 02-04-2001 06:21 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

You know, maybe you SHOULD have the right to say what's fair to post here..


so...since this site belongs to Ron Carnell and he unselfishly pays for it, perhaps you should pay a monthly fee to have the right to post whatever you like. And in the meantime, could you revise the guidelines too, since Ron is busy now.

ok..how much? Well..it seems fair that if you send Ron $1.219.67 a month, you can have the rights you seek...

Ok, I apologize. That was snippy. I am truly sorry. I could delete it, but then I've lost my tirade.

sigh.....it's Ron's house, we live by Ron's rules. If it was your house, you could set the rules......

again, I apologize...it's been a long day....
Acies
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Moderator
Member Laureate
since 06-07-2000
Posts 14805
Twilight Zone


4 posted 02-04-2001 06:54 PM       View Profile for Acies   Email Acies   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Acies

If you remember when we joined PIP, we were asked to follow the rules of Passions and also asked to check each forums guidelines.  We were given the choice to agree or cancel, and when we chose agree, I assume it means that no matter what, we do have to follow the guidelines.  Most of the time, if a moderator sees a poem that possibly crosses or close to crossing the guirdelines, he/she does not pull the poem out right away.  Other opinions from other moderators are asked then a final decision is made.  If there are other poems that anyone sees to be inapproriate and possibly missed by a moderator, everyone in passions has the right to notify a moderator about it thus making us aware of it.  

I see no changes, wake up in the morning I ask myself, "Is life worth living or should I blast myself" TUPAC SHAKUR


Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


5 posted 02-04-2001 07:06 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

Your freedom of speech only extends as far as the point where it infringes on another's rights. Those rights infringed on here are those of the owner, Ron. As Sharon said, this is a private site. This is not governmentally funded, nor are the members asked to help in any way other than showing personal responsibility for themselves... something which you, Jeremy, have repeatedly failed to do.

Ron's analogy is still, I think, the most apt: This is a home. In a home there are rules and guidelines which those inside are expected to follow. Here, I think, they are fairly lax. I disagree with some of them as well, but that doesn't change the fact that we're guests in Ron's house. As long as we're staying here, it's our responsibility to follow those few rules. Like Sharon said, Ron's paying the mortgage... until we cough up some rent, we are bound by the rules we agreed to when we signed on as new members.

Some members are given numerous opportunities to follow those rules. We as a team are lenient almost to the point of inanity sometimes in stretching for those who, like recalcitrant teenagers, choose to keep pushing the limits and crossing the lines. Granted, some of us (myself in particular) might like to be a bit more harsh, but understand that the more caring way is probably a better one.

That's why it annoys me to see someone repeatedly push the boundaries the other moderators and Ron have so graciously reminded them of. It makes it seem that there's no respect for their efforts. And that's another thing a home is based on: respect.

Please show some, Jeremey, and abide by the very few, very loose rules we have here. If you make a mistake, as we all do from time to time, accept it and move on, trying not to do the same again. Failing that, there are plenty of other places on the Net where you can post your material indiscriminately. Know though, that there's a price - anarchy may sound fun initially, but wears on you after a while.

Christopher




[This message has been edited by Christopher (edited 02-04-2001).]
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


6 posted 02-04-2001 08:21 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Yep...   what Chris said, if ya make a mistake...deal with it and move on. I too, wrote a poem which was NOT yanked by the way? But yanno what? I DELETED It...BECAUSE I saw later, that it could be misconstrued too easily. And as I've said a million times?
I am all for free speech and will defend the bill of rights for anyone...however, I don't necessarily want everyone practicing their rights in my livingroom either. And? This is coming from one of those "recalcitrant teen-agers" that Chris mentioned. I do goof. ALOT.
But in the spirit of community, I try to make amends. So...hugs to you, in that same spirit...and there ARE other forums out there.
But they suck.  LOL.
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


7 posted 02-04-2001 08:21 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Well, your argument makes a number of false assumptions:

First, the first amendment:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

This is your free speech right, not the ability to say anything you want, anytime, anywhere. True, the history of this amendment is more complex than these words and very interesting reading -- why not do some research? Nevertheless, your rights have not been infringed upon.

Second, your argument seems to be that your poem (not prose) is real and therefore should not be "censored" but how do you define real? You seem to argue that pornography and profanity 'stray from the real' but they seem just as real to me. Your argument means we can't delete anything because anything can be considered real as you construe it.

The reality of your poem (of which I could contest on a number of points but I don't think you mean 'real', I think you mean serious) is not the issue. The issue is whether it conforms to certain guidelines which you agreed to. Certain moderators (myself included) felt that it did not.

There are a number of places on the internet where your poem can be posted; feel free to post it there (if you want directions, send me an e-mail).

Your next argument is that others have been allowed to post whose work, in your opinion, violates the guidelines and are "even more graphic" than what you wrote.  Yes, this is a possibility but there is no conspiracy against you, it is a matter of different moderator opinions and the inherent fliexibility of the guidelines themselves. It's also possible that mistakes were made. It's also possible that decisions were made beyond a 'cut and dry' kind of approach. None of this really effects what happens to you (consistency is a moderator's worry because it deals with the image of this site and it's hard to maintain a 'cut and dry' approach as an individual -- try dealing with all the people who are moderators here).
  

Overall, your post doesn't seem to realize the historical situation in which these forums were formed in the first place. Understanding that might help you to see that we are all trying to create a comfortable environment for an incredibly diverse amount of people.

This is difficult.

Yes, suicide has been talked about but it is always a borderline topic (it's hard for many to stay reasonable on the subject even in the dicussion forums). It gives moderators headaches and, personally, I disagree with suicide poetry (on the internet as a whole, they are very common) because it detracts from the aesthetic value
of a poem.  What value might be gained in reading poetry as poetry is drowned in a sea of knee jerk responses to the issue -- they're not reading your words, they're reading the issue.

So, I guess the question comes back to your 'real' argument. Do you want to be read as a poet or as a reporter?

Brad


[This message has been edited by Brad (edited 02-04-2001).]
Dopey Dope
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Moderator
Member Laureate
since 08-30-2000
Posts 15536
San Juan, Puerto Rico


8 posted 02-04-2001 08:25 PM       View Profile for Dopey Dope   Email Dopey Dope   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Dopey Dope

Short and sweet:

we live by the rules
we die by the rules



I was born myself, raised myself, and will continue to be myself. The world will just have to adjust.

I'm in love with my shadow
I admire it daily
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


9 posted 02-04-2001 08:28 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

There are several issues here: Your poem, your constitutional rights, and the "character" of Dark Passions.

I have very little to say about the poem. You depicted a person with emotional stress who chose to deal with pain by taking their own life, thereby promoting suicide as a viable solution to life. Very simply, I will not allow my resources to be used to suggest harming a human being is ever the right answer.

I have even less to say about your constitutional rights, except to suggest your should read what is written in the Guidelines about that very subject. Better yet, read the Constitution.

I do, however, have a few words to say about the third issue, about the character of Dark Passions.

We have one forum that is password protected, the Adult forum. That's not necessarily because I believe kids and teens shouldn't read the more mature, sexual material posted there, but rather because I believe that choice should be reserved for parents, not made by some guy running a web site. Does that mean that Adult is an open, anything-goes atmosphere? Absolutely not. The very first poem ever removed from Passions was one posted in Adult, a post suggesting rape might at times be merited. There is no place at Passions for words that promote or incite hate and harm - even if it's self-hate or self-harm. Not Adult. Not Open. Not Teen. And certainly not Dark.

I'm going to tell everyone a little secret that only three or four people know. Dark Passions "almost" didn't make it to the new server. We're short of Moderators in there right now and that forum, more than any except perhaps Teen, seems to desperately need moderation. Everyone in the discussion to keep or close Dark agreed it served a valuable purpose, but not everyone was able to effectively argue whether that purpose was worth the headaches it too often brings.

These forums originated because a handful of people, probably less than a dozen, were sick and tired of the sensationalistic garbage they found elsewhere. We wanted to post and read poetry that dealt with the realities of this world both realistically AND responsibly. As others joined us, we made it very clear we intended to preserve our standards. And, frankly, I had always presumed those who stayed here did so not in spite of our standards, but rather because they felt the same way. Was I wrong? Do we have a whole forum filled with people who believe hurting and killing, or promoting hurting and killing, can somehow be justified? Is that why Dark Passions, more than any other forum with similar levels of traffic, is so difficult to moderate?

Maybe Dark Passions, simply by its very nature, doesn't fit within the framework of our philosophy at Passions?
Craig
Senior Member
since 06-10-99
Posts 882


10 posted 02-04-2001 08:29 PM       View Profile for Craig   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Craig


I’ve seen ‘freedom of speech’ and cries of censorship so many times in these forums that I’m beginning to wonder if Ron should apply for sponsorship from the United Nations.

To echo what’s already been said - Freedom of speech doesn’t exist, it doesn’t exist on the street, it doesn’t exist in the workplace and it definitely doesn’t exist in these forums. You have the right to say whatever you like, wherever you like but there are prices to pay. If you chant racist remarks in the street you’ll be arrested for breach of the peace or inciting a riot or you’ll get punched in the mouth. If you tell your boss he’s an incompetent oaf who couldn’t organise a knees up in a brewery you could get fired or punched in the mouth. If you post something that is perceived to be contrary to the guidelines in any forum at Passions it’s going to get pulled but at least you aren’t going to get punched in the mouth.

There are plenty of places on the web that allow post of any type, Ron has decided that this isn’t one of them, if you can’t respect that then why not use your freedom of choice and post your poem somewhere else?
Elizabeth Cor
Senior Member
since 10-13-2000
Posts 906
Oregon (yeah!)


11 posted 02-04-2001 08:56 PM       View Profile for Elizabeth Cor   Email Elizabeth Cor   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Elizabeth Cor

There are many issues I see pass through The Alley that I am contented to sit back and watch. Arguments are made, points are sealed, and everyone’s quarrelling muscles get flexed. Wonderful. What I see MUCH too often are members that insist upon bashing either A) other members -- which may be a favored past time to some, but seems a waste of time and effort to me -- or B) Moderators and/or Ron. And, you know, that kills me… Ron is constantly being portrayed as having this totalitarian position. As though he LIVES to beat poets into submission with word filters *gasp* and posting guidelines *OH, MY!* and Moderators to enforce those guidelines *Help, Toto!*.  I believe the position has already been avowed, quite proficiently, that we are visitors to a private site, and that aforementioned guidelines are clearly stated when a membership is granted.

Now, fellow member who agreed to all the declared suppressing decrees of Passions, what I think you fail to understand is not the guidelines themselves, but the incentives behind them. I assure you that Ron and fellow moderators are not “realityphobics” *scoff* (oh and if we’re bringing up that word, let’s bring up another: presumption). In fact, I think they have a better sense of “reality” than you, Jeremy, if you’re ranting about free speech. I’m sure that if Ron could whisk away all rules and regulations without fear of harming the quality of the forums, then he would. One of the reasons this site has kept its exclusive status is BECAUSE of the restrictions placed on its members. If we were given free reign, I’m almost positive that Passions would degenerate into the crap that a lot of the unrestricted sites are. We have to take into account the entire spectrum of eyes viewing these pages; given that, this is a family-oriented value system. And that’s just great. Hey, I would be THRILLED to rid of that *asterisks* word filter, if I knew that everyone viewing my posts were mature enough to handle my.. uhm… well, hey, I talk like a trucker… but let’s not get into that now … My opinion in full: I’m GLAD it’s there. I wouldn’t want my eight-year-old child wandering into the site if the full of Ron’s instructions were not imposed (please note that I use this example because we DO have a member who is eight years old). Instead, I would feel comfortable letting them browse with me (through all Open forums, sans Adult) and sharing what we find. Isn’t that a nice feeling, Jeremy? *awww* Okay, so the purpose of this enormous paragraph. Said “realityphobics” understand that regulations are needed for a nice, clean atmosphere. And that applies to ALL forums, including Dark, and to certain subjects, one of which you have created a fuss over. Okay, let’s take that subject in hand and look at how it has been dealt with. You posted a poem with suicide as the theme. One moderator or another must have contacted you and took that post into the Moderator’s Forum and discussed the possibilities of elimination or tolerance. Somehow this seems… fair? And I mean, really, when is reality FAIR, Jeremy? But that’s beside the point…

*sigh* I know that my tangents may seem to be scattering farther away from the “issues” that you’ve brought up… so let’s get back to those…

I’m having trouble detecting what your complaint is because from what I can discern the issues mentioned can be solved, but not by ranting in The Alley. My assumptions as to what your pains might be (in question form, pretend it's Jeopardy… do you watch Jeopardy, Jeremy? Man with a mustache reading cards? Three other persons behind little blue podiums? Anyway...):

Do you, as an individual feel that you have been singled out and treated unfairly? Do you feel a double standard has caused you grief? If so, I suggest you take it up with one of the Administrators. Along those same lines, if you have found other posts that you feel are just as, if not more graphic or explicit -- in whatever manner -- than your own, that have NOT been removed, I propose you alert one of the moderators of that forum and ask them to review stated material.

  If it is the guidelines THEMSELVES, however, that are causing you whatever anguish you seem to be suffering, I invite you to go elsewhere. There are many, many poetry forums out there that do NOT offer any form of censorship. Freedom of speech, Jeremy, go at it. No rules, no guidelines, no moderators. And no removed posts.

But I think that for the warm, healthy environment created here, barriers are not a preference brought on by small-minded proprietors, they are a necessity demanded by the value that members place upon Passions.

[This message has been edited by Elizabeth Cor (edited 02-04-2001).]
firejerm
Member
since 06-13-2000
Posts 216
Springfield, OH, good ol USA


12 posted 02-04-2001 11:46 PM       View Profile for firejerm   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for firejerm

You are darn skippy I feel as if I've been singled out here.  I've seen other individuals talk about far more in-depth, darker things than I discussed in my poem.  Ron, HARDLY did I promote suicide.  It is the interpretation of the reader, you chose to interpret it that way.  It's funny, most of those who are kissing up aren't ones that responded to my poem.  The feedback I received directly from it was positive, but boy let me stand up for myself and the poop really rolls doesn't it?  I'm the Constitution was quoted to me, I needed a refresher on my history lesson, thanks.  I don't remember seeing anything in the guidelines about reality and writing about it, being against the rules.  Suicide was FAR from glorified in that poem.  It was about a sad situation with an even more horrible ending.  It would be safe to say that all the bed side baptists in here have been guilty at one time or another of being a hypocrite and I think that might be happening now.  I'm so glad you are all perfect and chose not to deal with life.  MA Miller...I think that is the handle, his stuff talks about thirst for blood, EXCELLENT writing, I love his material, but don't you think his stuff should be "edited" too?  There is a difference between being "edited" and totally censored.  You should redefine that in the opening message when it says "edited for content".  It should say, "censored for content".  Get off the train people.  I came here to share my work with others and get their feedback, not to glorify death, which is a load of crock.  I've seen and come close to death too many times in my profession to even possibly conceive the fact that it is glorious.  You don't know me, you obviously don't know the themes behind my writing, so don't judge as you have.

Jeremy

"Those little slices of death, how I loathe them."
-Edgar Allen Poe
firejerm
Member
since 06-13-2000
Posts 216
Springfield, OH, good ol USA


13 posted 02-04-2001 11:48 PM       View Profile for firejerm   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for firejerm

oh and "warm healthy environment"?  Have you bothered to read any of the stuff in there? We are all off center and in need of help.

"Those little slices of death, how I loathe them."
-Edgar Allen Poe
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


14 posted 02-05-2001 01:02 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Firejerm,
I'll try to keep this one short.

A)From your last post, you seem to be agreeing with Ron. Dark Passions is not a suitable forum for Passions as a whole and the stated guidelines. Is this what you want to argue?

B)What does 'skippy' mean?

C)It is our responsibility to judge and interpret. That may bother you but that is what it means to be a moderator or a reader for that matter. Even those that liked the poem are doing that. I'll be more than happy to discuss Ron's interpretation versus yours by e-mail. Your interpretation does not negate another's by the way.

D) You mention that I and a few others did not comment on your post. This is true but you effectively barred me from doing so by specifically arguing against critiques in your profile. If someone didn't like the poem, they can't say anything about it. You have effectively said to us that if you have something critical to say, don't say it.     This is why I work in Critical Analysis.


E) You are not being singled out. This has happened before and it'll probably happen again (often without public knowledge). You posted a rant here and we are responding. Some of us, however, get a little annoyed by the same misunderstood rhetoric again and again.

F) Drop the reality thing. Bad things are real and good things are real; one does not have precedence over the other except in your own mind (it's a misunderstanding of Realism -- see C).

G) Let's see. Bedside baptist and "on the train" -- two more labels to place before my ever growing resume. This is hilarious! I hope Chrisopher and Craig (among others)find it just as hilarious.  

H) Okay, your angry. We all see that. Why not take a few days and consider your position?

Thanks,
Brad
firejerm
Member
since 06-13-2000
Posts 216
Springfield, OH, good ol USA


15 posted 02-05-2001 05:33 AM       View Profile for firejerm   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for firejerm

I'm shocked you actually took the time to look at my profile.  However, I have received some disagreeing opinions from some of the poetry I've submitted, and I've been able to take it in stride...except for this time.  "Skippy" doesn't mean much, I don't want to be guilty of using profanity now do I? So I had to find the next best thing.  You want to discuss something with me then I'll be more than happy to do so.  This is the last I'm going to say on the subject...and now have to be concerned with anything further I post in the form of prose being scruitenized.
Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 05-20-99
Posts 24426
Cape Cod Massachusetts USA


16 posted 02-05-2001 07:24 AM       View Profile for Nan   Email Nan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nan's Home Page   View IP for Nan

Hes, indeed - Your postings will be scrutinized.  You have effectively flagged yourself with your own haughty and self-righteous attitude.

I removed your suicide poem - because it wasn't appropriate for our forums.  The thing that bothers me, is that you already knew it would be offensive before you posted it.  We've dealt with you on the issue of our guidelines before.  It seems you don't believe we're serious.  Well, Jeremy - Believe it.  

You have two choices... (A) Continue to post with us, adhering to our (more than fair) posting guidelines just like everyone else... or (B) Take your attitude and your postings elsewhere.  The option is yours.... and believe me when I say - I and the wonderful moderating team we have here WILL make sure that one or the other happens.




[This message has been edited by Nan (edited 02-06-2001).]
Elizabeth Cor
Senior Member
since 10-13-2000
Posts 906
Oregon (yeah!)


17 posted 02-05-2001 08:39 AM       View Profile for Elizabeth Cor   Email Elizabeth Cor   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Elizabeth Cor


A popular snack at all Baptist cookouts.

p.s.scruitenized???



[This message has been edited by Elizabeth Cor (edited 02-05-2001).]
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


18 posted 02-05-2001 09:45 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

Brad's most definitely a "Bedside Baptist" (think the alliteration was intentional Brad... we know how you hate it ...) but I have to disagree about the "on the train" part. From what I've seen, Brad usually ends up underneath the train.    

C



[This message has been edited by Christopher (edited 02-05-2001).]
Dark_kisses_Within
Senior Member
since 03-21-2000
Posts 678
Kansas


19 posted 02-05-2001 10:07 AM       View Profile for Dark_kisses_Within   Email Dark_kisses_Within   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Dark_kisses_Within's Home Page   View IP for Dark_kisses_Within

Good grief!  Does the childish acts need to continue here? Anger is one thing but to degrade and make fun of another is down right childish! I really dont think Jeremy is *flagging* himself here.  I believe he had a *gripe* and decided to act upon it.  Thats what Alley is for,correct? So to put a red flag on his poetry because of his concerns is singling him out.  I have read many others in this post that have deeper attitudes than just Jeremy.
I have been in this forum for some time now and so far I love it.  I, also have had some concerns about some of the *editing* done to my poems.  Yet I talked to Isis about them and we got them worked out. So, see? Not everyone is the same nor are we *perfect.* Making fun of someone that is in the state of anger or feeling he is being bashed upon is just childish to me.  Being the *Pros* that you are should just answer any questions without the need to make fun of them. When this is done is just makes that person even more angry. ( I know I dont like being made fun of, do any of you?) I am not writing this to start a *riot* on myself of having anyone else jump on Jeremy.  I just wanted to make my opinion known about the degrading actions taken by some that I have read here.  It saddens me to see so many still acting like they are in grade school, when clearing they aren't.
I have also read MANY good points here on this subject and I clearly understand them.  Yet the *childish* writes just threw me off somewhat.  
Okay there's my 2 cents worth  
Mags

Ohhhhhhhhh BTW... what I got from this poem was so much different, I guess.  To me it was a story about a woman that needed help and no one was there to reach for her hand.  It made me realize that we need to look deeper and see the pain some people feel even if we dont see it on the outter level.  Anyways, thats what I saw.    
Scarlet Lady
Member
since 02-11-2000
Posts 247
Midwest


20 posted 02-05-2001 10:38 AM       View Profile for Scarlet Lady   Email Scarlet Lady   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Scarlet Lady

HEY MAGS.........YOU   GO    GIRL!!!!!!  
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


21 posted 02-05-2001 01:19 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

Dark_kisses_Within

Jeremy, like everyone else, has had more than ample leeway. We rarely give anyone grief over a first "offense," and then only when it's in the extreme. We're not "pros" here, we're just people. As Brad stated, subjectivity and constancy is something that's difficult to come by when dealing with individuals. So when that leeway is abused, we people have a tendancy to become riled. Personally, I don't like being called names.   But I don't mind being made fun of... I'm used to it.

If someone breaks the rules, whether intentionally or not, we tell them and deal with it to the best of our abilities. We are more than willing to reasonably discuss the issues, but when someone insist on refusing to see logic... it makes it difficult. If the issue is dropped, the member hears no more about it. However, when someone posts a complaint in a public forum, we have the same right to respond as he does to post the accusatory complaint in the first place.

This is old hat - we've been here many times before. Jeremy is hardly the first, nor the worst. Look through some of the old Alley posts way back to near the beginning of the forums and you'll see that everything which has been said here, has been said before.

C
Dark_kisses_Within
Senior Member
since 03-21-2000
Posts 678
Kansas


22 posted 02-05-2001 01:49 PM       View Profile for Dark_kisses_Within   Email Dark_kisses_Within   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Dark_kisses_Within's Home Page   View IP for Dark_kisses_Within

C,

  You made the statement that you dont mind being made fun of, correct?  Just because you tolerate it still doesnt make it correct. Being a moderator ( your choice by the way) is like any other form of leadership.  New people enter this forum and we must go over the same subjects again and again.  Not everyone is the same nor do we all think alike.  So therefore the subjects must be delt with by each person.  I work for the DOC (Department of Corrections, for those that dont know) and YES I understand how the same topics get a little mind boggling.  But as I have learned ... each person is an indiviual and must be treated as such.  I am not saying what Jeremy posted was right nor am I saying it was wrong.  My point is .... the childish acts of laughing at his comments and his concerns.  Being in a leadership type environment has many headaches, I am sure.  But to do the best you must like what you do.  If being a moderator is such a *pain* , then why be one?  I am grateful there are so many or else we wouldnt even have a forum here.  But laughing at comments made or suggestions spoke makes me wonder how serious and caring this forum really is.  

Just MY thoughts,
Mags
Colin
Senior Member
since 06-05-99
Posts 612
Callington, Cornwall, England


23 posted 02-05-2001 01:59 PM       View Profile for Colin   Email Colin   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Colin

In sport, you play by the rules or it's a foul and you get penalised. If you foul severely enough you get sent off.

In poker, you play by the house rules. Here, Ron is "the house" so we play by his rules.

Simple eh?

Colin.

p.s. Elizabeth, I really hope that's not a jar full of Skippy The Bush Kangaroo!



Suburbia is where the developer bulldozes out the trees, then names the streets after them. - Bill Vaughan
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


24 posted 02-05-2001 02:20 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

You're right - each person is an individual, and should be treated with the respect due them. However, when people fail to listen to reason, and throw logic out the proverbial door, then it's all but a useless gesture to repeat yourself. If you're familiar with being in a position of leadership, then you also know the importance of rules and guidelines.

If, for example, you didn't have any at your workplace, what do you think would happen? And I highly doubt that you dole out the amount of leniency found here. When the rules are broken, there are consequences. We, as a group (it is a very rare occasion when a post is pulled on the word or opinion of a single moderator - almost always there are two, and more often three or more) decided that the poem in question was not within the framework of Passions' spirit and guidelines. We pulled it.

That, 99% of the time is it. This time however, the person in question chose to attack those who were simply doing their job as they saw fit. No one was singling Jeremy out. You don't have access to the Moderators' forum, so you don't see what goes on there. The others however, when shown why we've taken action accept it and choose not to have it publicly displayed. For that reason, their issues are not brought to light.

Jeremy decided to bring his into the open air, and at the same time claim that he was being singled out. Not the case - he merely is one of the few who chose to complain about it. Fine and good, but we have the right to respond. If you think it's childish, then so be it. I don't recall making fun of anyone but myself in this post, and Ron, Brad and Craig have all covered the mature aspects. For what? To be derided and told they were "Bedside Baptists?" Personally, I have little tolerance for people who opt to call names instead of visit logic. To do so implies to me that their arguement is little more than a temper tantrum, which I have no patience for.

These people, the moderators, work hard - much harder than you know, to make this the best environment possible. I don't get along with all of them, but I believe every single one of them cares about Passions and enjoys doing what they're doing. We're all people doing the best we can for a place we believe in. This system seems to work too, for 95% of the LARGE population that visits here.  It's when people demean us and question our motives that we get upset.

You have no right to barge in here with no more information than you have and call BS on anyone here. You are ill-informed and therefore unable to present a point of view other than emotional. You are certainly more than welcome to do that - far be it from me to stop anyone from expressing themselves. But if you're going to start making accusations, be prepared to deal with the repercussions.

Christopher
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