navwin » Archives » Critical Analysis #2 » For Brad
Critical Analysis #2
Post A Reply Post New Topic For Brad Go to Previous / Newer Topic Back to Topic List Go to Next / Older Topic
turtle
Senior Member
since 2009-01-23
Posts 548
Harbor

0 posted 2009-02-09 12:13 PM


Hi Brad,

"Turtle

Are you nuts"

Apparently you think so. Maybe you should explain yourself Brad.

Does this web site have private messaging?

I'm setting here drinking my coffee, not quite awake yet,
but even still, it doesn't seem right for a moderator to
attack a member in another members thread.

Is this policy?

I would think, this should be a private disscusion, but
if you want to do this in public, be my guest.

© Copyright 2009 turtle - All Rights Reserved
Grinch
Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929
Whoville
1 posted 2009-02-09 02:00 PM



quote:
Does this web site have private messaging?


If you go to Brad’s post there’s a nifty little email icon at the top of it that’ll allow you to send mail to his registered address - whether he replies is up to him.

quote:
it doesn't seem right for a moderator to
attack a member in another members thread.


It isn’t and, at least how I read it, he wasn’t. It sounded more like an exclamation of disbelief regarding what you wrote rather than a serious question regarding your mental status. I could be wrong of course, after all I am officially nuts.

quote:
I would think, this should be a private disscusion, but
if you want to do this in public, be my guest.


Try emailing him if you want to discuss it privately, or reply in the original thread if you you want to keep it public, or better still, why not open a thread in the Alley and we can all play.


turtle
Senior Member
since 2009-01-23
Posts 548
Harbor
2 posted 2009-02-09 02:06 PM


Good advise Grinch. Thank you.
turtle
Senior Member
since 2009-01-23
Posts 548
Harbor
3 posted 2009-02-09 02:18 PM


Brad,

I have opened a thread in the alley.

Perhaps we should discuss this in public. There is probably something we could all gain from this, including me.

turtle

Grinch
Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929
Whoville
4 posted 2009-02-09 03:08 PM


It might be worthwhile asking a passing Moderator to delete or lock this duplicate thread so it’s not cluttering up CA and detracting from the poetry and critiques.

If you’ve emailed Brad he’ll find the post in the Alley.


Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
5 posted 2009-02-09 05:43 PM


Calm down.  "Are you nuts?" isn't very intelligent, but it is hardly an attack.   It would be better to hear him out further before jumping to conclusions.
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
6 posted 2009-02-09 06:27 PM


Sorry, Turtle. It was not intended as an attack. It certainly was not a question of your integrity. I was trying to be playful.

turtle
Senior Member
since 2009-01-23
Posts 548
Harbor
7 posted 2009-02-27 05:11 PM


This something borrowed something blue,
Will bring me down in front of you;
I'm promising to take you back,
To something to look forward to.

Starting, we contemplated ends,
Street corners where our knees would bend;
Praying to have our sins away,
By Heaven's showers angels send.

This back and forth is then and now,
It'll add up in the end somehow.
Tomorrow today, all the same

A masterpiece if we're the frame.
I mean, things do get out of hand;
Here's the bottom line, what stands out most is a success not planned.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Chops,  

Now look......lol

I asked "what sonnet?"

Because the moment I read it typed on the page was the first time I even considered the possibility that this poem is a sonnet....lol

There are at least 10 million sites on the internet that explain how to write a sonnet.......

I've never seen anything like this on any of them.....

Tell me.......Tell me, Please?.........How is this a sonnet?.......

  

chopsticks
Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888
The US,
8 posted 2009-02-27 07:11 PM


“ There are at least 10 million sites on the internet that explain how to write a sonnet.......”

Turtle. And some of those sites will tell you that the ONLY thing a poem needs to be a sonnet ~ is fourteen lines ~that is the only thing written is stone about a sonnet.

Shakespeare wrote 134 sonnets and the ONLY thing they all have in common is 14 lines.

I going to put this on a serch ( What is the only thing a poem needs to be a sonnet ) have a beer I'll get back to you,

There is even a name for it ~ The sonnet ghost ~ or was that ~ The sonic boom .



turtle
Senior Member
since 2009-01-23
Posts 548
Harbor
9 posted 2009-02-27 07:47 PM


HaHaHaHaHaHa

Chops...before you blow a gasket, let me explain what I mean.

Look at the last line of this poem?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Here's the bottom line, what stands out most is a success not planned."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The writer has taken the REAL last line......The !5th line and scrunched it
up into the Fourteenth line to make this a fourteen line poem.

He even put a comma at the end of the Fourteenth line to end the line.....lol
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Here's the bottom line,"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Does moving the 15th line up into the 14th line make this a 14 line poem?

Noooooooo....lol


Grinch
Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929
Whoville
10 posted 2009-02-27 07:48 PM



quote:
And some of those sites will tell you that the ONLY thing a poem needs to be a sonnet ~ is fourteen lines


Those would be the sites to avoid - the Curtal Sonnet has 11 lines.

quote:
Shakespeare wrote 134 sonnets


There are 154 sonnets attributed to Shakespeare.


turtle
Senior Member
since 2009-01-23
Posts 548
Harbor
11 posted 2009-02-27 08:41 PM


Chops - here's one of the better links to help you support your argument

And grinch is right 14 lines dosen't even mean a poem is a sonnet.


http://www.thepoetsgarret.com/sonnet1.html

chopsticks
Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888
The US,
12 posted 2009-02-27 08:42 PM


Turtle, some of the 14th line was the poet touting how good the 14th line was, that was obvious to me.
I think we better hope that synthetic is not armed and known where we live

Grinch, I just read a sonnet of 12 lines, but I was talking about the modern off shoot of the  Shakespeare  sonnet.  In the 134 thingy the 3 was a typo , of course it should have been a 5 .

My poetry guru said 14 lines makes it a sonnet whether it rhymes or anything else.

Turtle, I don’t have a gasket to blow , I can’t afford one .

As I bid you a good night I will say what my logic professor would often say, “ Says who ”

chopsticks
Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888
The US,
13 posted 2009-02-27 09:54 PM


“ And grinch is right 14 lines dosen't even mean a poem is a sonnet .”

Turtle, Grinch didn’t say that . He said, “ The curtal sonnet has 11 lines .

And a poem can be 14 lines without being a sonnet.

This is my simple statement :IF a poet wants to write a sonnet like synthetic did the ONLY hard and fast rule is it has to have more than 13 lines and less than 15 lines.. If a poet wants to write a 11 line sonnet he can do that too. Syn. wrote a 14 line sonnet and said it was a sonnet . He also followed some other suggested rules. I think when he wrote 14 lines and said it was a sonnet you should have excepted that and not said , what sonnet.

I’ve pecked as much as this finger will peck.
If that ain’t pecking, then what the heck.

John, don’t call me again tonight and tell me to go look at what Turtle just posted, I have a early pour in the morning.



turtle
Senior Member
since 2009-01-23
Posts 548
Harbor
14 posted 2009-02-27 10:06 PM


Quote
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"we better hope that synthetic is not armed and known where we live"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"06-10-2006"

This is what is motivating me chops this date 06-10-2006. Synthetic has been
posting here for the good part of three years. To have posted a poem like
"As Long As We Get There" in CA after being here three years tells me
(Possibly others) something about CA.......Thank God he only has 55 posts

Whether Synthetic is, or will ever be a poet is not upto this site.

But to post this poem and think it is good is NOT his fault. He should have been told this at least 2.5 years ago.

However cold this may seem it is my opinion.

Now, as far as synthetic, if he doesn't want to put out the effort to improve his writing
(especially with all these resources at his fingertips) maybe he should go post this stuff in
Open Poetry #44. That is a place to pat them on the head and say. Good boy!....errr That's good!

I've tried to help him and it's not doing any good.

BTW - Did synthetic come in here and critique anyone's poem to suggest a desire for a critique?

Night chops. I'll get off my soapbox now            



[This message has been edited by turtle (02-28-2009 07:19 AM).]

Grinch
Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929
Whoville
15 posted 2009-02-27 10:47 PM


Synthetic’s poem is not a recognised Sonnet form, at least not one that I’ve ever read.


quote:
To have posted a poem like "As Long As We Get There" in the CA after being here three years tells me (And others) something about CA


It certainly tells me something. It tells me that CA is a place where anyone at any level of poetic proficiency can post a poem in the hope of getting some constructive criticism without fear of ridicule or sustaining a verbal mauling.

quote:
BTW - Did synthetic come in here and critique anyone's poem to deserve a critique?


Nope, then again synthetic doesn’t have to, if he doesn’t he may find he gets fewer replies but, as far as I know, there’s no rule in that regard concerning replies.

.

turtle
Senior Member
since 2009-01-23
Posts 548
Harbor
16 posted 2009-02-27 11:13 PM


Well grinch,

Quote:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
can post a poem in the hope of getting some constructive criticism without fear of ridicule or sustaining a verbal mauling.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm real sorry that you feel that way The opinion I stated to chops was my opinion
which I also stated and I was after all stating it to chops, not synthetic.


I can only wonder if you've read any of my other posts to synthetic?

Please tell me if this sounds like "ridicule or sustaining a verbal mauling." to you?

Here are just a few examples

Hi synthetic,

Not sure what you're looking for here??? How long have you been
writing poetry? Are you posting elsewhere on these poetry blogs?
What are others telling you about your writing? Have you tried any
poetry wokshops?


I try to give people my honest opinion and if you're posting in a critical forum,
I assume you are looking for help. Unfortunatly, I don't see an improvement
over the last post of yours I commented on. I think the best advise I could
give, would be to find a poetry workshop where you can get some help
with your writing skills.

There is no malice intended toward you here Synthetic. I do try to help
folks where I can, and my opinion should only be construed as my opinion.

turtle

sorry syn,

I was trying to be diplomatic. Like many, I have a harder time fixing my own poetry than I do others.
I think, perhaps, that is the problem here.

A little trick I learned from an old girlfriend is to print, or write
a poem out in the form of a letter. For me, and others, this helps to show where there is a problem with
context and clarity.

Hi synthetic,

I wanted to come back here to apologize. Sometimes I will economize on my use of words to make a point and come off sounding abrupt, or offensive. It usually has nothing to do with whom I'm writing to, I may have something in mind I think is more important that I want to move on to. I may be making breakfast and it's time to turn the eggs. What I meant to say was: You probably don't need to explain, I think you're trying to write irony, but it's just not coming out that way, or at least it's not for me.

Let's see, if I wanted to write using irony, what would I do? Heck synthetic, this is the internet. I could go to google and search for irony. I could use wikipedia to get some backgound and understanding of irony. I could read poems and stories and jokes that use irony, I could pay attention to, not only what is being said, but how a writer is using it.

I don't think irony is coming home and not finding someone and then not hearing their voice. I think it would be more like hearing someone's voice and then finding they're not there.

???

synthetic
Member
since 2006-06-10
Posts 70
ontario, canada
17 posted 2009-02-28 03:44 AM


So I've only just now taken the time to read this thread, and I'll say... WOAH! lol... Turtle, you really do need to ease up... my having been a member for three years does not imply that I've been an active one for that length of time. As for my lack of commentary/criticism on other pieces... well... considering I don't believe myself to be as knowledgeable as other writers such as Essorant (with his translations) for example, or several other writers on this forum... I don't pass judgement, or critique, because it wouldn't be of any value. If you make a remark, solely based on opinion, be sure that you'll be caught when someone asks you to justify yourself... I steer clear from making a "derriere" of myself - that's all.

Your reaction to this poem is quite odd... but ever so amusing. I think you're my biggest fan Turtle.

Oh and Chops... I am armed, and I do know where you live... lol... but I'm Canadian, so I'll be fighting with a musket!

Have a good night all!

chopsticks
Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888
The US,
18 posted 2009-02-28 08:17 AM


Turtle, you are very selective .  Synthetic ask for help and you gave him a few words of what for. Nina ask  

for help and you gave her six pages.  That is your business and calling you on it is my business . I am a

Charter member of the SYBM union of the USA and Canada and we are now organizing a local in the UK..

Btw Synthetic, how did you get that screen name?


turtle
Senior Member
since 2009-01-23
Posts 548
Harbor
19 posted 2009-02-28 04:26 PM


Chops,

Yes I picked one of these kids to help, because of her innocense and enthusiasm

and because she'd never written a poem before. Do you think I'm doing it just for her?

There was just a young girl posted here, "Truth". Did we not all just tell her to put
more effort into her work before posting here. There have been several young
kids posting here lately and I believe I've suggested to all of them to put more
effort into their work. As far as synthetic I've put more time into trying to give him
some guidance than anyone else has since I've been here.


Quote:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Synthetic ask for help and you gave him a few words of what for.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Not true. go back to his posts and read what I said instead of making unfounded
accusations....Both you and grinch.

I know in your mind and others I may seem cruel, but in my mind I AM trying to
help him by telling him to get into a poetry workshop and improve. I've gone
through my posts in synthetic's threads and I cannot find anywhere I am giving
him what for.

I have also started to go back through the previous threads in CA and it seems
posters are spending more time talking......other than that, I guess I should hold
my opinion.

Chops you keep going into these threads I've posted in an questioning everything
I say. I'm sure you are just trying to gain some understanding, but do you think
that's right? - You should be addressing the poster not me.


It may seem on the surface I'm trying to be cruel, when all I'm really doing is
evaluating the situation and trying to reach an honest conclusion.


turtle

turtle
Senior Member
since 2009-01-23
Posts 548
Harbor
20 posted 2009-02-28 04:43 PM


Synthetic,

If you want to come into this thread and read what I really think. This is a free country.
I know you don't like, or agree with what I think, but my concern here
is beyond your activities in CA.

Go read a book.

turtle

chopsticks
Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888
The US,
21 posted 2009-02-28 06:20 PM


“ Not true. go back to his posts and read what I said instead of making unfounded
accusations....Both you and grinch. ”

Turtle be careful what you ask for, I went back over Synthetic’s thread and this is what I saw :

No one post- you called his poem a nursery rhyme and ask him how long he had been posting on C&A

No seven post- said you were making an insinuation when you ask synthetic how long he had been posting here.

No ten post -you said, I just don’t see anything working here and then spent the rest of the post bragging about what you were going to do.

No thirteen post- after synthetic wrote a long post trying to connect with you , you said two words ~ What sonnet ~

No fourteen post -was almost embarrassing , you just posted one of your poems for the world to read.

And Turtle, that is just about it.

A dog barks and the caravan continues across the hot desert sands.

turtle
Senior Member
since 2009-01-23
Posts 548
Harbor
22 posted 2009-02-28 08:01 PM


"Turtle be careful what you ask for, I went back over Synthetic’s thread and this is what I saw :"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"No one post- you called his poem a nursery rhyme and ask him how long he had been posting on C&A"

(Hmmm, bit of a nursery rhyme isn't it?) A question is not "calling" anything
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"No seven post- said you were making an insinuation when you ask synthetic how long he had been posting here."

Yes and if anyone cares to read the thread it's clear I am talking to you (Who questions my every post)
Trying to explain "to you" what a metaphor is and that post had nothing to do with synthetic.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"No ten post -you said, I just don’t see anything working here and then spent the rest of the post bragging about what you were going to do."

HaHaHaHa. Is that what I was doing? Or was I simply trying to give synthetic an idea on how to improve his poetry.  Why did I end that post with "how do you write?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"No thirteen post- after synthetic wrote a long post trying to connect with you , you said two words ~ What sonnet ~"

Yes and you're right here, but I was stunned that he thought it was a sonnet and 6 minutes later I posted
my 14th post to his thread didn't I?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No fourteen post -was almost embarrassing , you just posted one of your poems for the world to read.

OMG! chops you are wrong here. I was responding to synthetic's post that you wrongfully accused me of not responding to.

Quote:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I had a few things in mind going into the writing of this piece: 8 syllable lines; the story I envisioned; and finally my desire to keep it simple. Now the eight syllable lines work wonders for keeping it "simple", because the rhythmic flow of the sonnet comes across much like a nursery rhyme's would. And although love is made to be something quite complicated, I wanted to state that it's the contrary; hence the nursery rhyme feel and my final line:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This information tells me that his choice of a sonnet was wrong for the idea of his poem.  I was showing him another form that (I) thought would work better for his idea.

Why else would I state at the bottom of that post (This is how I would approach your poem.)

As far as posting a poem in someone else's thread...
It's done here all the time. As a matter of fact you seemed to like the idea when someone else does it.

And I thought I had a slanted opinion???


turtle
Senior Member
since 2009-01-23
Posts 548
Harbor
23 posted 2009-02-28 08:54 PM


....you know.

Given my current bout with sleep apnea, I probably am being an old grouch.

My apologies.

synthetic
Member
since 2006-06-10
Posts 70
ontario, canada
24 posted 2009-03-01 05:53 AM


did you advise me to read a book Turtle? lol... you're definitely a special character. you were bullied in the past weren't you?!
synthetic
Member
since 2006-06-10
Posts 70
ontario, canada
25 posted 2009-03-01 05:55 AM


oh and Chops, what exactly do you mean by "how did i get that screen name"? like what made me choose it... or something else...
turtle
Senior Member
since 2009-01-23
Posts 548
Harbor
26 posted 2009-03-01 03:07 PM


Syn, I was much worse that bullied as a child, but telling you

to read a book has nothing to do with it. You are just one

of several kids (anyone under 30 is a kid to me) I've told to

read a book. Everyone else laughed because they saw the

humor and that is how I mean it when I say it. Personally I have

no feelings about you, just concern over your understanding of

poetry. I am impressed that you have the self assurance to stand

up to me though that is a good thing.





Chops, so that poem I posted in syn's thread embarrassed you?

HaHaHaHaHa

Good. It should have. Thank you for critiquing my poem.

If I were hear to grandstand don't you think I'd post that in #44?



[This message has been edited by turtle (03-01-2009 07:36 PM).]

synthetic
Member
since 2006-06-10
Posts 70
ontario, canada
27 posted 2009-03-01 04:00 PM


lol we're all having a good time with this i think. and don't worry about it Turtle, i'm not offended or insulted... and don't be fooled, any 21 year old is a kid as far as life as concerned...
turtle
Senior Member
since 2009-01-23
Posts 548
Harbor
28 posted 2009-03-08 11:48 PM


Hi guys,

Not that Monkly is going to get upset if we use his thread, but some discussions have gotten a little out of hand in the past, sooo I at least would feel more comfortable doing it here.


chopsticks
Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888
The US,
29 posted 2009-03-09 08:59 AM


“ I at least would feel more comfortable doing it here.”

Turtle, at my age I feel comfortable doing it anywhere, but I am barred from the paint department at Sears.

More sick humor .

turtle
Senior Member
since 2009-01-23
Posts 548
Harbor
30 posted 2009-03-12 06:01 PM


ROTF - Grinch, moonbeam, you guys are killing me, but I don't see this helping anything. All these posts by someone that is not and shows no intention of contributing to this web site, is becoming a problem and not only in my mind. (clearly)

Being new here I don't know what the proper solution is for dealing with this, but surely Monk Frost is not a first.

Ron - This is your web site, your decision is the final word here. I would like to see CA become something that you can be proud of. If this three posts a day rule, in this forum, is turning this forum into something petty and trivial (my opinion) perhaps this forum needs some clearer and more forum appropiate guidelines.

For one thing I am using this thread as a discussion thread in order to try and get the discussions out of  the poster's threads, but I think these discussions (If they become derisive) should be taken out of CA completely and done in a thread outside of this forum all together, like in the Alley.

When compared to how the young folks conduct themselves in the Teen forum is stood up against this forum....I agree, it is embarrassing.

Brad, Not a poet, this is your Forum, not mine.

IMO if those that posted in this forum were required to critique one or two other posts in this forum before posting, it would put a stop to the antics of people like Monk Frost (Again, my opinion)


turtle

Grinch, I think I see what you're trying to do here....I agree

[This message has been edited by turtle (03-12-2009 06:44 PM).]

moonbeam
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356

31 posted 2009-03-12 06:50 PM




quote:
This is your web site, your decision is the final word here. I would like to see CA become something that you can be proud of. If this three posts a day rule, in this forum, is turning this forum into something petty and trivial (my opinion) perhaps this forum needs some clearer and more forum appropiate guidelines.

Why am I getting goosebumpy deja vuisms.  Humm.

Grinch
Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929
Whoville
32 posted 2009-03-12 06:51 PM


quote:
All these posts by someone that is not and shows no intention of contributing to this web site, is becoming a problem and not only in my mind. (clearly)


Maybe part of the problem is that you don’t see the contradiction inherent in that statement Turtle. Define contributing.

quote:
Being new here I don't know what the proper solution is for dealing with this, but surely Monk Frost is not a first.


Nope, and hopefully he\she won’t be the last, otherwise CA will end up a pretty elitist place with only us experts and poet laureates left talking amongst ourselves.



What’s the solution?

You post comments until you decide that you aren’t getting what you want out of posting them, at which point you move onto another post or poster. Hopefully the poster is either encouraged to reply or discouraged from jerking your chain - if that’s their intention.

What you don’t do is start ripping into them for not replying, if Monk is the shy retiring type it’s just going to discourage him from joining in and if he’s posting just to annoy you you’re making his day by taking the bait.

Oh! And starting a big discussion is the same as the above only twice as bad.

  

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669
Michigan, US
33 posted 2009-03-12 07:31 PM


quote:
Ron - This is your web site, your decision is the final word here.

Yea? Since when?

Steve, I too would like to have seen CA become something in which we could all take pride. That's not going to happen, though, because we're clearly not all reaching for the same objectives. And that's cool. It's a really big Internet and there's more than enough poetry sites out there to satisfy everyone's needs.

Over the years, Critical Analysis has tended to attract people who are really passionate about poetry. And I absolutely respect that. I admire it. But it's not me.

My love of writing keeps me writing, but it's not what motivates me to provide these Internet venues for other writers. Poetry, for me, will always place a distant second to poets. It's the people who count most. My objective for this site and most others I run has always been to encourage writers to write. I like to give them the tools to both write and write better, but honestly the latter has always been a secondary goal. Improvement depends as much on time and desire, I think, as on tools or advice from others. I believe that if people continue writing most will inevitably get better at it. More importantly, most will learn to want to get better at it.

Yada, yada, yada.

I've said all this before, so many times over the past ten years that I've long ago lost count. And it seems like most of the times I've had to give the same tired speech has been in response to someone in Critical Analysis. Like I said, this forum seems to attract people who are really passionate about their poetry. While I sincerely respect that, I don't intend to abandon my own passions to support theirs.

The Critical Analysis forum is no more.

A bit after noon today, CA #2 became an Archive. Replies only, no new threads. Just as when we Archive an Open forum, CA will remain on the front page for maybe a week so that people who recently posted poems have a better opportunity to attract replies. Unlike Open, however, there will be no replacement for CA when it is moved to the Archives page.

We can't be all things to all people, and if we're foolish enough to try pleasing everyone we'll inevitably please no one. Especially ourselves. Personally, I'd prefer to do one small thing right over doing too much and getting it all wrong. Some differences in objectives can be negotiated. Some, however, are irreconcilable. At least, that's what my divorce lawyer told me.

The few people who will really miss Critical Analysis will no doubt find other sites that better fulfill their objectives. They won't have to endure all the irritations they faced here (though I suspect they'll find new ones). I think in the long run they'll be happier. I hope so.



turtle
Senior Member
since 2009-01-23
Posts 548
Harbor
34 posted 2009-03-12 08:08 PM


Quote:
What you don’t do is start ripping into them for not replying, if Monk is the shy retiring type

Grinch - Do you think Monk is the shy retiring type? I probably understand Monk better than anyone here.

Quote:
My love of writing keeps me writing, but it's not what motivates me to provide these Internet venues for other writers. Poetry, for me, will always place a distant second to poets. It's the people who count most. My objective for this site and most others I run has always been to encourage writers to write. I like to give them the tools to both write and write better, but honestly the latter has always been a secondary goal. Improvement depends as much on time and desire, I think, as on tools or advice from others. I believe that if people continue writing most will inevitably get better at it. More importantly, most will learn to want to get better at it.

Ron - Suprisingly, I agree with this. Though my methods may differ, my intentions are similar. If you are saying you don't want me here and it appears this is the case. Then I will leave you with a thought from Robert Frost.

Quote:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mending Wall

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it
And spills the upper boulder in the sun,
And make gaps even two can pass abreast.
The work of hunters is another thing:
I have come after them and made repair
Where they have left not one stone on a stone,
But they would have the rabbit out of hiding,
To please the yelping dogs. The gaps I mean,
No one has seen them made or heard them made,
But at spring mending-time we find them there,
I let my neighbor know beyond the hill;
And on a day we meet to walk the line
And set the wall between us once again.
We keep the wall between us as we go.
To each the boulders that have fallen to each.
And some are loaves and some so nearly balls
We have to use a spell to make them balance:
"Stay where you are until our backs are turned!"
We wear our fingers rough with handling them.
Oh, just another kind of outdoor game,
One on a side. It comes to little more:
There where it is we do not need the wall:
He is all pine and I am apple orchard.
My apple trees will never get across
And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him.
He only says, "Good fences make good neighbors."
Spring is the mischief in me, and I wonder
If I could put a notion in his head:
"Why do they make good neighbors? Isn't it
Where there are cows? But here there are no cows.
Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offense.
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down." I could say "Elves" to him,
But it's not elves exactly, and I'd rather
He said it for himself. I see him there,
Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top
In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed.
He moves in darkness as it seems to me,
Not of woods only and the shade of trees.
He will not go behind his father's saying,
And he likes having thought of it so well
He says again, "Good fences make good neighbors."

Robert Frost
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There are two ways of looking at this poem.

Grinch
Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929
Whoville
35 posted 2009-03-12 08:38 PM



quote:
Grinch - Do you think Monk is the shy retiring type?


Probably not, but “probably” is a little too close to “possibly” for my taste. I like to know what I’m biting off before I start chewing.

As far as CA goes I’m not surprised that Ron has closed it, in fact I’m only surprised that it took this long for him to do it. That’s probably a testament to the patience he keeps insisting he hasn’t got.

Hopefully though the constructive criticism will continue in other forums where the bad side-effects are somewhat diffused by the volume of posts.

.

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669
Michigan, US
36 posted 2009-03-12 09:13 PM


quote:
If you are saying you don't want me here and it appears this is the case.

Nope, not the case at all. Quite the contrary, in fact.

quote:
Hopefully though the constructive criticism will continue in other forums where the bad side-effects are somewhat diffused by the volume of posts.

Mmm. When sought, I'm not sure constructive criticism has any bad side-effects. None worth mentioning, at any rate.



Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
37 posted 2009-03-13 01:23 AM


I can't believe you are just going to end Critical Analysis like that.  There is no more that will keep me at this site, for this is the only part in which I most enjoyed sharing (even arguing about) poetry.  At the same time you rejoice in discontinuing CA, rejoice in the end of Essorant's presence at this site as well.  What a sore disappointment.    
moonbeam
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356

38 posted 2009-03-13 05:02 AM


Pete, Brad, Ess, Ron et al

I think you will know how sad I am to see this forum closed.

Over the years (many of them) I've been more responsible than most for trotting out the mantra of "this forum can be more, let's have more guidelines", and over the years Ron has been steadfast in resisting this mainly on the basis that PiP isn't really only, or even mainly, about poetry.  

I've come to accept that position, albeit still with some disappointment that he wouldn't even attempt some innovations, but it's his site (and it really IS Ron) etc etc.  

What the forum will degenerate into with no special guidelines and a very light moderating touch (no disrespect at all Pete) has been seen, not just over that last 3 weeks, but over the last 2 years.  There have been several very talented poets here during that period - they have all stopped posting here in any meaningful sense.  In some cases I know why; in others I can guess.  Ron's implication that a "serious" poetry forum cannot exist within the PiP framework is correct, it probably needs special administrative help to do so, and if that help will not even be ventured then I am convinced that the closure decision is correct.

I just want to thank all the mods of CA over the years for the great job they did, Hoot and Brad, Jim, Trevor, Pete (what a Trojan!), and Kamla; who did I miss?  And thanks also to some of the posters I have much admired: Grinch, Toad, Craig, Jenni, Brad (without whom I wouldn't be here - thanks Brad), Trevor, Kamla, Christopher, Martie, Marie, Karen, Hush, Ess, Jenn, Sid, both Jim's!, and latterly Bob (I definitely missed many).

And of course thanks to Ron, for putting up with my endless tirades and tantrums, and being so infernally patient!

Rob

eminor_angel
Member
since 2003-05-22
Posts 323
Canada
39 posted 2009-03-13 02:20 PM


Now that this forum is closed, can anyone recommend an alternative website? Thanks.
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
40 posted 2009-03-14 05:52 AM


Thanks to everyone who contributed.

Ess,

I hope that's not the case.

Ron,

Okay. And thanks. It was a good run.

quote:
My love of writing keeps me writing, but it's not what motivates me to provide these Internet venues for other writers. Poetry, for me, will always place a distant second to poets. It's the people who count most. My objective for this site and most others I run has always been to encourage writers to write. I like to give them the tools to both write and write better, but honestly the latter has always been a secondary goal. Improvement depends as much on time and desire, I think, as on tools or advice from others. I believe that if people continue writing most will inevitably get better at it. More importantly, most will learn to want to get better at it.


*Sigh* Unfortunately, this misses the point entirely.

I don't think our, or if you want my, goal has been to "improve" a person's poetry at the expense of the person.

The "Aesthetic" or "Poetic" or "Transcendent" moment that some of us have experienced is not something that can ever push people out of the picture. The reverse, a focus on people or poets, on the other hand, pushes out that moment.

And that, at least for me, hurts people.

People are going to be hurt with or without us. I don't see you getting less headaches from this move but if you think so, so be it.

I've seen too many things happen here that have nothing to do with CA. People, myself included of course, can be childish, hyper-sensitive, and vindictive with or without CA.

Frankly, some of it has been down right hilarious. Looking at other sites, the same thing happens there -- regardless of their commitment to criticism. I'll post a couple of links tomorrow for those interested.

Back to my main point, I've never had any illusions that we were gonna get great poetry from critiquing. As far as I can tell, that's not how it works. The very process of reading closely, of showing when and where and how one reacts, does not help the poet, it helps the reader doing the close reading.

That's why we want people to contribute; that's why we want people to read more seriously.

And that helps the writing.

Which in turn helps the reader.

And readers are people, aren't they?  


Thanks, Ron. You've been a great and patient host. You may not have seen them, but there have been many great moments here. Perhaps not enough, perhaps too much of the other stuff, but the other stuff should never diminish those moments.

Because that diminishes the people behind those moments.

PS "Diminish" is the wrong word in that last sentence. You can't diminish people, you can only see their efforts as less important than they were. Anybody got a better word?     

[This message has been edited by Brad (03-14-2009 07:26 AM).]

Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
41 posted 2009-03-14 10:38 AM


I think Brad and Moonbeam have said about everything I would like to say. Like Essorant, I too will miss this place. I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind its closing but I guess that's not necessary. Thanks for a good run though, Ron. It does seem a shame that a new, non-conforming poster can cause the demise of such a worthwhile forum.

I have always tried to moderate CA loosely because I felt that was the right way. For the most part, the group does a pretty darn good job of moderating itself. Our regular denizens, regardless of their respective talent or skill levels, have nearly always shown a true interest in learning or at least gaining some insight from the group. I can't speak for Brad but I think he has treated it in a similar manner.

Sure, there have been an incident or two. We are a diverse group. The overall mood of the group has changed from time to time too, sometimes for the good and sometimes not so much. But we just seemed to "soldier on" through it all. I have seen some really good writers and many not so good. All have been accepted as long as they made the effort and contributed something other than spam.

I have done technical writing for a long time but was really new to poetry when I came here. I won't claim to have become a poet as I have little creative talent but I have learned a lot about how and what not to write. At least I do now understand rhyme, meter and structure. Maybe I have managed to write a couple of keepers along with all the garbage. All the credit goes to you folks here in CA and I thank you profusely for that.

Since CA is the only place I fit in here at PIP, I'll just say goodbye to the many friends I have found here. Brad, you and Jim were probably my greatest influences. Thanks for helping me, incouraging me and calling me to task when I really messed up. Moonbeam and Grinch, in all your incarnations, thanks for all you have contributed to me as well as the forum. Essorant, thanks for being a staunch supporter or propriety of language as well as this forum. Sid, wherever you are, you too have been a good friend, writer and critic. Balladeer and Nan, thank you for teaching me so much about rhyme and meter. And Ron, A special thanks to you for providing this platform and for tolerating the "burr under the saddle" for so long. Finally, I know I have missed several significant others and I apologize to all of you.

Since I don't seem to be writing poetry anymore, I don't expect I'll try to look for another place. I wish all of you the very best and maybe we'll meet again some time or place.

Thanks to all,
Pete

isabella223
Junior Member
since 2009-03-14
Posts 16

42 posted 2009-03-14 04:03 PM


(hi my previous pip name was nina1522 but i forgot my password so created a new one.)

please dont close CA. turtle has taught me a lot from this forum.

[This message has been edited by isabella223 (03-14-2009 04:36 PM).]

chopsticks
Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888
The US,
43 posted 2009-03-15 11:12 AM


“ I can't believe you are just going to end Critical Analysis like that. “

Essorant , I can’t believe it either. Was it the right way at the right time for the right reason, I don’t have a clue.

Over the past 12 years This is the third  forum to just up and close. The first one closed because of money .
The other two , I know not why.

Btw, the first forum wasn't a poetry forum. I guess you would call it a self help discussion forum.

I hope it wasn’t something  I did.

I won’t be posting anymore either, this is the only forum that made me tick .

A dog barks and the caravan continues on, across the hot desert sand . (~ From dead man walking ~ )

[This message has been edited by chopsticks (03-16-2009 07:18 AM).]

Grinch
Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929
Whoville
44 posted 2009-03-15 12:43 PM



Why leave?

Ron’s closing the CA Forum not banning critical analysis.

Just pick another Forum to post in and add a request for a critical analysis or an in-depth reply and you can carry on contributing to your heart’s content - albeit in a different place.

That’s what I’ll be doing.


JenniferMaxwell
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423

45 posted 2009-03-15 01:56 PM


Oh do stop being sensible and ruining the drama for the rest of us, Grinch!  

I’m in - back to the Dark in a couple of weeks.



Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
46 posted 2009-03-15 07:26 PM


ThePeacefulPub

These people have been very welcoming. Their critical forum is very slow however so bring a few friends a long. They also have strong "General Audience" rules if you're worried about that sort of thing.

CriticalPoet

Again, these people have been very kind. I don't understand the critical forum division, but that's the way they do it. Wide range of knowledge. Very good if you want to learn.

I spend less time at these places than I do here but my impression, when I was perusing, was good.

There are many forums out there. Each has its own personality. Go out and look and find the place you feel most at home at.

Good luck!

Grinch
Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929
Whoville
47 posted 2009-03-15 08:07 PM



quote:
Go out and look and find the place you feel most at home at.


Err.. That would be here Brad.



Am I missing something - has Ron announced a ban on all critical analysis at PIP as well as closing CA?

Hey Ron, can you clarify?

.

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
48 posted 2009-03-15 09:01 PM


No, there's no ban on criticism as such. But I think that places have their own personalities and that we are all, subconsciously perhaps, moved in certain directions in certain places.

In other words, if you don't have a specific place for criticism, you won't see much of it.

Or, more headaches will ensue because you have inevitable miscues.

At any rate, I wanted to put another link here:

Studio8

This is Doreen Peri's site. It doesn't have a strong critical bent, but it has strong opiners. There have certainly been many times that I wanted to jump into the fray.


Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
49 posted 2009-03-15 09:43 PM


No ban Grinch, but it's pretty much the same thing. You have perused the other forums and know the level of criticism that might work there. I don't see a small, tightly-knit group, like the core of CA, becoming much of a part of any of that. I have no disdain for Open or the other forums but I just don't fit well there. I suspect much of our core feels the same. True, some of the discussion forums are interesting but that is not the same thing.

Grinch
Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929
Whoville
50 posted 2009-03-15 09:51 PM



quote:
Or, more headaches will ensue because you have inevitable miscues.


Of course they will, or at the very least an equal amount of headaches that occurred in CA will continue. Hence my comment earlier about the dilution of the negative effects in a larger pool of posts. But that’s a good thing.

Look at CA just before it closed - there was more critical analysis going on in the Teen forum with a lot less friction. Anyone who wanted a critique had a chance to get one and anyone who didn’t want one was left to get on with what they were doing, everyone was happy.

Of course now that CA has shut the critics have picked up their ball and wandered off home.

So why all the long faces and determination to leave?

Pick a forum, post a poem asking for a critical analysis or in-depth reply and Bob’s your aunty (no offence Bob) integrated analysis - as Peter Kay would say - trust me it‘s the future, or was that pizza?


moonbeam
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356

51 posted 2009-03-16 03:24 AM


I'm kind of agreeing with Grinch here, though there is a good reason why CA in other forums has worked quite well (and why it hasn't here for a while) which I think you are missing (mailing you and Pete on that later).

Though a forum run by Doreen P might be rather good.  I wondered where she got to.  Ty Brad.

[This message has been edited by moonbeam (03-16-2009 06:33 PM).]

chopsticks
Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888
The US,
52 posted 2009-03-16 07:08 AM


I think it would be highly  inappropriate for  this ~Hole in the wall gang~ to shanghai open or any other forum here.

I hope if that happens  the appropriate moderator will delete, lock or band those post.

Come on people we are stewing in our own juice .

It’s time to put our tale between our legs.

Tower, this is Chopsticks over and out .

Grinch
Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929
Whoville
53 posted 2009-03-16 08:25 AM



quote:
I think it would be highly inappropriate for this ~Hole in the wall gang~ to shanghai open or any other forum here.


Who’s talking about shanghaiing another forum?

You can post a constructive criticism in any forum, you always have been able to, in fact it’s encouraged, that’s why the “encourages constructive criticism” flag was created. For some reason that fact seems to have been forgotten, people seem to think that constructive criticism was restricted to the CA forum when the flag was checked. The reality has always been that crits in CA were legitimate in CA regardless of the flag status and legitimate in any other forum if the flag was checked - that’s why my flag is unchecked. If I posted in CA I wanted critiques, if I posted in open I didn’t.

In future I'll change my flag and only post poems I want in-depth replies to.

I’m not suggesting that people use any single forum for constructive criticism, I’m suggesting they use them all.


chopsticks
Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888
The US,
54 posted 2009-03-16 08:46 AM


Chopsticks to Heathrow, can you patch me to Grinch.

Grinch, I don’t consider you part of the ~ Hole in the wall gang~ , therefore I think you can post anywhere you like and ask for critique .

You have always been a gentleman.

Can you see this thread started in Open ?

Grinch
Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929
Whoville
55 posted 2009-03-16 09:27 AM



quote:
Can you see this thread started in Open ?


No.

But then again I don’t think it should have been started in CA either -  that’s why I suggested at the start that it would be better suited to the alley.

.

JenniferMaxwell
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423

56 posted 2009-03-17 09:38 AM


I’m beginning to think someone’s caravan is lost in a sandstorm. Time to check your compass, Chops, and head for a new oasis - CA is closed.

Perhaps Balladeer could use your help in Workshop or, if you still want to post poems for in-depth critique, just note your request in the title line and, no doubt, one of the  ~ Hole in the wall gang~  will be glad to help you out. They very graciously give up a lot of their free time to help those who want to improve their writing.
  

chopsticks
Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888
The US,
57 posted 2009-03-18 12:10 PM


“I’m beginning to think someone’s caravan is lost in a sandstorm”

Thank you for such a fitting epitaph , but I would have preferred a shorter version.

Maybe ~~ Here Be Chopsticks, Forever Lost In A Sandstorm ~~



JenniferMaxwell
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423

58 posted 2009-03-18 05:36 PM


Way too much drama, Chops.

Anyway, I have an idea about something you could do to help a certain group of folks on this site with their poetry, etc. You don’t have an email icon or I would have sent it to you, but I'll put my email back up so if you’re interested, shoot me off an email. It’s really a pretty good idea, think you might actually like it.


JenniferMaxwell
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423

59 posted 2009-03-18 05:39 PM


Changed my settings, my little yellow email icon should be up now.
chopsticks
Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888
The US,
60 posted 2009-03-18 08:08 PM


Jennifer, thank you very much for the offer ,but  I have already accepted a position with the work shop. The pay is good and Balladeer is putting me on track for tenure.  I can’t say to much about my new job as I was hired ahead of some of the wall gang with more seniority .

Btw, I’m not even suppose to be here .

The best, Sticks .



JenniferMaxwell
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423

61 posted 2009-03-18 08:24 PM


Best of luck in your new position, Chops. I’m sure you’ll be a tremendous asset to the Workshop forum. And don’t let Balladeer cheat you out of overtime pay. I’ve heard he can be a wee bit tight with the green.
Post A Reply Post New Topic ⇧ top of page ⇧ Go to Previous / Newer Topic Back to Topic List Go to Next / Older Topic
All times are ET (US). All dates are in Year-Month-Day format.
navwin » Archives » Critical Analysis #2 » For Brad

Passions in Poetry | pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums | 100 Best Poems

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary