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Passions in Poetry

For Brad

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synthetic
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since 06-10-2006
Posts 62
ontario, canada


25 posted 03-01-2009 05:55 AM       View Profile for synthetic   Email synthetic   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for synthetic

oh and Chops, what exactly do you mean by "how did i get that screen name"? like what made me choose it... or something else...
turtle
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since 01-23-2009
Posts 491
Harbor


26 posted 03-01-2009 03:07 PM       View Profile for turtle   Email turtle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for turtle

Syn, I was much worse that bullied as a child, but telling you

to read a book has nothing to do with it. You are just one

of several kids (anyone under 30 is a kid to me) I've told to

read a book. Everyone else laughed because they saw the

humor and that is how I mean it when I say it. Personally I have

no feelings about you, just concern over your understanding of

poetry. I am impressed that you have the self assurance to stand

up to me though that is a good thing.





Chops, so that poem I posted in syn's thread embarrassed you?

HaHaHaHaHa

Good. It should have. Thank you for critiquing my poem.

If I were hear to grandstand don't you think I'd post that in #44?



[This message has been edited by turtle (03-01-2009 07:36 PM).]

synthetic
Member
since 06-10-2006
Posts 62
ontario, canada


27 posted 03-01-2009 04:00 PM       View Profile for synthetic   Email synthetic   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for synthetic

lol we're all having a good time with this i think. and don't worry about it Turtle, i'm not offended or insulted... and don't be fooled, any 21 year old is a kid as far as life as concerned...
turtle
Member
since 01-23-2009
Posts 491
Harbor


28 posted 03-08-2009 11:48 PM       View Profile for turtle   Email turtle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for turtle

Hi guys,

Not that Monkly is going to get upset if we use his thread, but some discussions have gotten a little out of hand in the past, sooo I at least would feel more comfortable doing it here.

chopsticks
Senior Member
since 10-02-2007
Posts 870
The US,


29 posted 03-09-2009 08:59 AM       View Profile for chopsticks   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for chopsticks

ď I at least would feel more comfortable doing it here.Ē

Turtle, at my age I feel comfortable doing it anywhere, but I am barred from the paint department at Sears.

More sick humor .
turtle
Member
since 01-23-2009
Posts 491
Harbor


30 posted 03-12-2009 06:01 PM       View Profile for turtle   Email turtle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for turtle

ROTF - Grinch, moonbeam, you guys are killing me, but I don't see this helping anything. All these posts by someone that is not and shows no intention of contributing to this web site, is becoming a problem and not only in my mind. (clearly)

Being new here I don't know what the proper solution is for dealing with this, but surely Monk Frost is not a first.

Ron - This is your web site, your decision is the final word here. I would like to see CA become something that you can be proud of. If this three posts a day rule, in this forum, is turning this forum into something petty and trivial (my opinion) perhaps this forum needs some clearer and more forum appropiate guidelines.

For one thing I am using this thread as a discussion thread in order to try and get the discussions out of  the poster's threads, but I think these discussions (If they become derisive) should be taken out of CA completely and done in a thread outside of this forum all together, like in the Alley.

When compared to how the young folks conduct themselves in the Teen forum is stood up against this forum....I agree, it is embarrassing.

Brad, Not a poet, this is your Forum, not mine.

IMO if those that posted in this forum were required to critique one or two other posts in this forum before posting, it would put a stop to the antics of people like Monk Frost (Again, my opinion)


turtle

Grinch, I think I see what you're trying to do here....I agree

[This message has been edited by turtle (03-12-2009 06:44 PM).]

moonbeam
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31 posted 03-12-2009 06:50 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam



quote:
This is your web site, your decision is the final word here. I would like to see CA become something that you can be proud of. If this three posts a day rule, in this forum, is turning this forum into something petty and trivial (my opinion) perhaps this forum needs some clearer and more forum appropiate guidelines.

Why am I getting goosebumpy deja vuisms.  Humm.
Grinch
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since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


32 posted 03-12-2009 06:51 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
All these posts by someone that is not and shows no intention of contributing to this web site, is becoming a problem and not only in my mind. (clearly)


Maybe part of the problem is that you donít see the contradiction inherent in that statement Turtle. Define contributing.

quote:
Being new here I don't know what the proper solution is for dealing with this, but surely Monk Frost is not a first.


Nope, and hopefully he\she wonít be the last, otherwise CA will end up a pretty elitist place with only us experts and poet laureates left talking amongst ourselves.



Whatís the solution?

You post comments until you decide that you arenít getting what you want out of posting them, at which point you move onto another post or poster. Hopefully the poster is either encouraged to reply or discouraged from jerking your chain - if thatís their intention.

What you donít do is start ripping into them for not replying, if Monk is the shy retiring type itís just going to discourage him from joining in and if heís posting just to annoy you youíre making his day by taking the bait.

Oh! And starting a big discussion is the same as the above only twice as bad.

  
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


33 posted 03-12-2009 07:31 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Ron - This is your web site, your decision is the final word here.

Yea? Since when?

Steve, I too would like to have seen CA become something in which we could all take pride. That's not going to happen, though, because we're clearly not all reaching for the same objectives. And that's cool. It's a really big Internet and there's more than enough poetry sites out there to satisfy everyone's needs.

Over the years, Critical Analysis has tended to attract people who are really passionate about poetry. And I absolutely respect that. I admire it. But it's not me.

My love of writing keeps me writing, but it's not what motivates me to provide these Internet venues for other writers. Poetry, for me, will always place a distant second to poets. It's the people who count most. My objective for this site and most others I run has always been to encourage writers to write. I like to give them the tools to both write and write better, but honestly the latter has always been a secondary goal. Improvement depends as much on time and desire, I think, as on tools or advice from others. I believe that if people continue writing most will inevitably get better at it. More importantly, most will learn to want to get better at it.

Yada, yada, yada.

I've said all this before, so many times over the past ten years that I've long ago lost count. And it seems like most of the times I've had to give the same tired speech has been in response to someone in Critical Analysis. Like I said, this forum seems to attract people who are really passionate about their poetry. While I sincerely respect that, I don't intend to abandon my own passions to support theirs.

The Critical Analysis forum is no more.

A bit after noon today, CA #2 became an Archive. Replies only, no new threads. Just as when we Archive an Open forum, CA will remain on the front page for maybe a week so that people who recently posted poems have a better opportunity to attract replies. Unlike Open, however, there will be no replacement for CA when it is moved to the Archives page.

We can't be all things to all people, and if we're foolish enough to try pleasing everyone we'll inevitably please no one. Especially ourselves. Personally, I'd prefer to do one small thing right over doing too much and getting it all wrong. Some differences in objectives can be negotiated. Some, however, are irreconcilable. At least, that's what my divorce lawyer told me.

The few people who will really miss Critical Analysis will no doubt find other sites that better fulfill their objectives. They won't have to endure all the irritations they faced here (though I suspect they'll find new ones). I think in the long run they'll be happier. I hope so.


turtle
Member
since 01-23-2009
Posts 491
Harbor


34 posted 03-12-2009 08:08 PM       View Profile for turtle   Email turtle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for turtle

Quote:
What you donít do is start ripping into them for not replying, if Monk is the shy retiring type

Grinch - Do you think Monk is the shy retiring type? I probably understand Monk better than anyone here.

Quote:
My love of writing keeps me writing, but it's not what motivates me to provide these Internet venues for other writers. Poetry, for me, will always place a distant second to poets. It's the people who count most. My objective for this site and most others I run has always been to encourage writers to write. I like to give them the tools to both write and write better, but honestly the latter has always been a secondary goal. Improvement depends as much on time and desire, I think, as on tools or advice from others. I believe that if people continue writing most will inevitably get better at it. More importantly, most will learn to want to get better at it.

Ron - Suprisingly, I agree with this. Though my methods may differ, my intentions are similar. If you are saying you don't want me here and it appears this is the case. Then I will leave you with a thought from Robert Frost.

Quote:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mending Wall

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it
And spills the upper boulder in the sun,
And make gaps even two can pass abreast.
The work of hunters is another thing:
I have come after them and made repair
Where they have left not one stone on a stone,
But they would have the rabbit out of hiding,
To please the yelping dogs. The gaps I mean,
No one has seen them made or heard them made,
But at spring mending-time we find them there,
I let my neighbor know beyond the hill;
And on a day we meet to walk the line
And set the wall between us once again.
We keep the wall between us as we go.
To each the boulders that have fallen to each.
And some are loaves and some so nearly balls
We have to use a spell to make them balance:
"Stay where you are until our backs are turned!"
We wear our fingers rough with handling them.
Oh, just another kind of outdoor game,
One on a side. It comes to little more:
There where it is we do not need the wall:
He is all pine and I am apple orchard.
My apple trees will never get across
And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him.
He only says, "Good fences make good neighbors."
Spring is the mischief in me, and I wonder
If I could put a notion in his head:
"Why do they make good neighbors? Isn't it
Where there are cows? But here there are no cows.
Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offense.
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down." I could say "Elves" to him,
But it's not elves exactly, and I'd rather
He said it for himself. I see him there,
Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top
In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed.
He moves in darkness as it seems to me,
Not of woods only and the shade of trees.
He will not go behind his father's saying,
And he likes having thought of it so well
He says again, "Good fences make good neighbors."

Robert Frost
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There are two ways of looking at this poem.
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


35 posted 03-12-2009 08:38 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Grinch - Do you think Monk is the shy retiring type?


Probably not, but ďprobablyĒ is a little too close to ďpossiblyĒ for my taste. I like to know what Iím biting off before I start chewing.

As far as CA goes Iím not surprised that Ron has closed it, in fact Iím only surprised that it took this long for him to do it. Thatís probably a testament to the patience he keeps insisting he hasnít got.

Hopefully though the constructive criticism will continue in other forums where the bad side-effects are somewhat diffused by the volume of posts.

.
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


36 posted 03-12-2009 09:13 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
If you are saying you don't want me here and it appears this is the case.

Nope, not the case at all. Quite the contrary, in fact.

quote:
Hopefully though the constructive criticism will continue in other forums where the bad side-effects are somewhat diffused by the volume of posts.

Mmm. When sought, I'm not sure constructive criticism has any bad side-effects. None worth mentioning, at any rate.


Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


37 posted 03-13-2009 01:23 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I can't believe you are just going to end Critical Analysis like that.  There is no more that will keep me at this site, for this is the only part in which I most enjoyed sharing (even arguing about) poetry.  At the same time you rejoice in discontinuing CA, rejoice in the end of Essorant's presence at this site as well.  What a sore disappointment.    
moonbeam
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38 posted 03-13-2009 05:02 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Pete, Brad, Ess, Ron et al

I think you will know how sad I am to see this forum closed.

Over the years (many of them) I've been more responsible than most for trotting out the mantra of "this forum can be more, let's have more guidelines", and over the years Ron has been steadfast in resisting this mainly on the basis that PiP isn't really only, or even mainly, about poetry.  

I've come to accept that position, albeit still with some disappointment that he wouldn't even attempt some innovations, but it's his site (and it really IS Ron) etc etc.  

What the forum will degenerate into with no special guidelines and a very light moderating touch (no disrespect at all Pete) has been seen, not just over that last 3 weeks, but over the last 2 years.  There have been several very talented poets here during that period - they have all stopped posting here in any meaningful sense.  In some cases I know why; in others I can guess.  Ron's implication that a "serious" poetry forum cannot exist within the PiP framework is correct, it probably needs special administrative help to do so, and if that help will not even be ventured then I am convinced that the closure decision is correct.

I just want to thank all the mods of CA over the years for the great job they did, Hoot and Brad, Jim, Trevor, Pete (what a Trojan!), and Kamla; who did I miss?  And thanks also to some of the posters I have much admired: Grinch, Toad, Craig, Jenni, Brad (without whom I wouldn't be here - thanks Brad), Trevor, Kamla, Christopher, Martie, Marie, Karen, Hush, Ess, Jenn, Sid, both Jim's!, and latterly Bob (I definitely missed many).

And of course thanks to Ron, for putting up with my endless tirades and tantrums, and being so infernally patient!

Rob
eminor_angel
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since 05-22-2003
Posts 327
Canada


39 posted 03-13-2009 02:20 PM       View Profile for eminor_angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for eminor_angel

Now that this forum is closed, can anyone recommend an alternative website? Thanks.
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


40 posted 03-14-2009 05:52 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Thanks to everyone who contributed.

Ess,

I hope that's not the case.

Ron,

Okay. And thanks. It was a good run.

quote:
My love of writing keeps me writing, but it's not what motivates me to provide these Internet venues for other writers. Poetry, for me, will always place a distant second to poets. It's the people who count most. My objective for this site and most others I run has always been to encourage writers to write. I like to give them the tools to both write and write better, but honestly the latter has always been a secondary goal. Improvement depends as much on time and desire, I think, as on tools or advice from others. I believe that if people continue writing most will inevitably get better at it. More importantly, most will learn to want to get better at it.


*Sigh* Unfortunately, this misses the point entirely.

I don't think our, or if you want my, goal has been to "improve" a person's poetry at the expense of the person.

The "Aesthetic" or "Poetic" or "Transcendent" moment that some of us have experienced is not something that can ever push people out of the picture. The reverse, a focus on people or poets, on the other hand, pushes out that moment.

And that, at least for me, hurts people.

People are going to be hurt with or without us. I don't see you getting less headaches from this move but if you think so, so be it.

I've seen too many things happen here that have nothing to do with CA. People, myself included of course, can be childish, hyper-sensitive, and vindictive with or without CA.

Frankly, some of it has been down right hilarious. Looking at other sites, the same thing happens there -- regardless of their commitment to criticism. I'll post a couple of links tomorrow for those interested.

Back to my main point, I've never had any illusions that we were gonna get great poetry from critiquing. As far as I can tell, that's not how it works. The very process of reading closely, of showing when and where and how one reacts, does not help the poet, it helps the reader doing the close reading.

That's why we want people to contribute; that's why we want people to read more seriously.

And that helps the writing.

Which in turn helps the reader.

And readers are people, aren't they?  


Thanks, Ron. You've been a great and patient host. You may not have seen them, but there have been many great moments here. Perhaps not enough, perhaps too much of the other stuff, but the other stuff should never diminish those moments.

Because that diminishes the people behind those moments.

PS "Diminish" is the wrong word in that last sentence. You can't diminish people, you can only see their efforts as less important than they were. Anybody got a better word?     

[This message has been edited by Brad (03-14-2009 07:26 AM).]

Not A Poet
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since 11-03-1999
Posts 4427
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41 posted 03-14-2009 10:38 AM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

I think Brad and Moonbeam have said about everything I would like to say. Like Essorant, I too will miss this place. I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind its closing but I guess that's not necessary. Thanks for a good run though, Ron. It does seem a shame that a new, non-conforming poster can cause the demise of such a worthwhile forum.

I have always tried to moderate CA loosely because I felt that was the right way. For the most part, the group does a pretty darn good job of moderating itself. Our regular denizens, regardless of their respective talent or skill levels, have nearly always shown a true interest in learning or at least gaining some insight from the group. I can't speak for Brad but I think he has treated it in a similar manner.

Sure, there have been an incident or two. We are a diverse group. The overall mood of the group has changed from time to time too, sometimes for the good and sometimes not so much. But we just seemed to "soldier on" through it all. I have seen some really good writers and many not so good. All have been accepted as long as they made the effort and contributed something other than spam.

I have done technical writing for a long time but was really new to poetry when I came here. I won't claim to have become a poet as I have little creative talent but I have learned a lot about how and what not to write. At least I do now understand rhyme, meter and structure. Maybe I have managed to write a couple of keepers along with all the garbage. All the credit goes to you folks here in CA and I thank you profusely for that.

Since CA is the only place I fit in here at PIP, I'll just say goodbye to the many friends I have found here. Brad, you and Jim were probably my greatest influences. Thanks for helping me, incouraging me and calling me to task when I really messed up. Moonbeam and Grinch, in all your incarnations, thanks for all you have contributed to me as well as the forum. Essorant, thanks for being a staunch supporter or propriety of language as well as this forum. Sid, wherever you are, you too have been a good friend, writer and critic. Balladeer and Nan, thank you for teaching me so much about rhyme and meter. And Ron, A special thanks to you for providing this platform and for tolerating the "burr under the saddle" for so long. Finally, I know I have missed several significant others and I apologize to all of you.

Since I don't seem to be writing poetry anymore, I don't expect I'll try to look for another place. I wish all of you the very best and maybe we'll meet again some time or place.

Thanks to all,
Pete
isabella223
Junior Member
since 03-14-2009
Posts 15


42 posted 03-14-2009 04:03 PM       View Profile for isabella223   Email isabella223   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for isabella223

(hi my previous pip name was nina1522 but i forgot my password so created a new one.)

please dont close CA. turtle has taught me a lot from this forum.

[This message has been edited by isabella223 (03-14-2009 04:36 PM).]

chopsticks
Senior Member
since 10-02-2007
Posts 870
The US,


43 posted 03-15-2009 11:12 AM       View Profile for chopsticks   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for chopsticks

ď I can't believe you are just going to end Critical Analysis like that. ď

Essorant , I canít believe it either. Was it the right way at the right time for the right reason, I donít have a clue.

Over the past 12 years This is the third  forum to just up and close. The first one closed because of money .
The other two , I know not why.

Btw, the first forum wasn't a poetry forum. I guess you would call it a self help discussion forum.

I hope it wasnít something  I did.

I wonít be posting anymore either, this is the only forum that made me tick .

A dog barks and the caravan continues on, across the hot desert sand . (~ From dead man walking ~ )

[This message has been edited by chopsticks (03-16-2009 07:18 AM).]

Grinch
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since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


44 posted 03-15-2009 12:43 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Why leave?

Ronís closing the CA Forum not banning critical analysis.

Just pick another Forum to post in and add a request for a critical analysis or an in-depth reply and you can carry on contributing to your heartís content - albeit in a different place.

Thatís what Iíll be doing.

JenniferMaxwell
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45 posted 03-15-2009 01:56 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Oh do stop being sensible and ruining the drama for the rest of us, Grinch!  

Iím in - back to the Dark in a couple of weeks.


Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


46 posted 03-15-2009 07:26 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

ThePeacefulPub

These people have been very welcoming. Their critical forum is very slow however so bring a few friends a long. They also have strong "General Audience" rules if you're worried about that sort of thing.

CriticalPoet

Again, these people have been very kind. I don't understand the critical forum division, but that's the way they do it. Wide range of knowledge. Very good if you want to learn.

I spend less time at these places than I do here but my impression, when I was perusing, was good.

There are many forums out there. Each has its own personality. Go out and look and find the place you feel most at home at.

Good luck!
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


47 posted 03-15-2009 08:07 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Go out and look and find the place you feel most at home at.


Err.. That would be here Brad.



Am I missing something - has Ron announced a ban on all critical analysis at PIP as well as closing CA?

Hey Ron, can you clarify?

.
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


48 posted 03-15-2009 09:01 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

No, there's no ban on criticism as such. But I think that places have their own personalities and that we are all, subconsciously perhaps, moved in certain directions in certain places.

In other words, if you don't have a specific place for criticism, you won't see much of it.

Or, more headaches will ensue because you have inevitable miscues.

At any rate, I wanted to put another link here:

Studio8

This is Doreen Peri's site. It doesn't have a strong critical bent, but it has strong opiners. There have certainly been many times that I wanted to jump into the fray.

Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 11-03-1999
Posts 4427
Oklahoma, USA


49 posted 03-15-2009 09:43 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

No ban Grinch, but it's pretty much the same thing. You have perused the other forums and know the level of criticism that might work there. I don't see a small, tightly-knit group, like the core of CA, becoming much of a part of any of that. I have no disdain for Open or the other forums but I just don't fit well there. I suspect much of our core feels the same. True, some of the discussion forums are interesting but that is not the same thing.
 
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