»
Archives
»
Critical Analysis #2
»
On Being Authentic
| Critical Analysis #2 |
|
On Being Authentic |
|
|
BROTHER JOHN Member
since 2006-04-06
Posts 386 |
Within earth's passing frame, there's a staged play And ancient its plots, scripts and the encore. Beyond life's fibbing props' another door; When it's unlocked, push hard! It's freedom's way. This "sole" door's locked by saintly stars who sway Or aged playwrights numbered by the score. Conformity's the play, demanding more Applauses from grown "children" every day! Far from life's false stage there resides a place Where one's the star in an authentic role; And this inheritance's a gift of grace. Though a gift, it's possessed by self control, Grit and grime. An unknown, a faceless face To "show biz", stars by honoring their soul! [This message has been edited by BROTHER JOHN (08-09-2008 08:49 PM).] |
||
| © Copyright 2008 BROTHER JOHN - All Rights Reserved | |||
|
MOCindy Member
since 2008-07-30
Posts 73 |
I love this poem. Exactly to the point of Authenticity. passaway=passway? why do you use the word of sway? again, enjoyed my reading and sensed the wisdom in it. C |
||
|
BROTHER JOHN Member
since 2006-04-06
Posts 386 |
Dear MOCindy, Thanks for your remarks. I looked in my dictionary and did not find the word passway. I am sure it may be used in poetry. I did not like the word sway either. But I was tied to the scheme; I had to stay with an a sound. I am very much open for corrections and welcome any suggestions on how to improve this poem. BJ |
||
|
Gabe Junior Member
since 2008-08-05
Posts 17 |
Brother John, I enjoyed the reading and appreciate the effort you put into the form. quote: I had a little trouble with the syntax in these phrases. I couldn't figure out how "A secret passageway" fit easily into the sentence. I guess I'm thinking of the passageway as something distinct from the door. Or did you intend it to be another way of describing the nature of the "living door"? It might just be my reading of it, but I have the same problem when writing verse. Sometimes the structure doesn't support the syntax. In other words, I want the thoughts to flow effortlessly, but I find myself wrestling with the demands of the form. I had similar difficulty here: quote: By "stars of sway" do you mean influential actors, meaning people of influence who can move the opinions of others with their reputation? If so, you got the message across to me but, again, the arrangement of words seems to be wrestling with the form rather than moving effortlessly with it. This is an example of where I think you got it just right: quote: I thought this was a very clever way to frame your point. "Conformity" demanding "applauses" struck me as a cool way to present the idea. Here, I think you repeat a solid interplay between form and syntax: quote: But here, it seems "And" is there because it provides a syllable and "a gift of the divine" seems like it would be better placed at the beginning of the thought than at the end of it. quote: A few other thoughts. In "By owing life's self" do you mean "By owning life's self"? I sense you are going for a more classic feel. That's fine with me, and because you are consistent about this throughout the poem, I don't have a problem with the adjectives following the nouns in the final lines. Again, I appreciate the effort that went into writing this. I just fought my way through an unruly couplet myself. I hope this is helpful to you. G |
||
|
BROTHER JOHN Member
since 2006-04-06
Posts 386 |
Dear Gabe, You have been helpful. By living door, I am thinking of the true self who longs to be free from slavery to others. Stars that sway are authoritive figures we "look up to" and by them we conform even against, sometimes our better judgement and become one of the "heelers" in the crowd. I hope this helps. I take your constructive remarks as honest helpers to a novice. My poems, as myself, are always under construction. Blessings on you! BJ |
||
|
BROTHER JOHN Member
since 2006-04-06
Posts 386 |
I am having trouble arranging lines at the end of my poem after an edit. I need help. BJ |
||
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
You own your life, a gift; and with your mind "Rites" owned to bathe in heavenly sunlight, Unblushfully disrobed with love enshrined! If this works, try deleting your lines and then copy and paste the above. Good Luck! "Unblushfully"? |
||
|
BROTHER JOHN Member
since 2006-04-06
Posts 386 |
Dear Jennifer, Thanks for the tip. I kept trying to type in my corrections. Too, thanks for noting the incorrect word. I needed an adverb. BJ |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Actually, Brother John, not to be judgmental, but in my opinion I think you’d have a far better poem if you cut most of the modifiers and just spit out what you’re trying to say. Nothing worse than putting too much mayonnaise on a ham salad sandwich - something I have to watch myself. Blessed Be Jen |
||
|
BROTHER JOHN Member
since 2006-04-06
Posts 386 |
Dear Jennifer, Thats for your remarks. I am very much a novice and need help. This is the reason I have posted here. I do not take it as a judgement and I thank you. I have tried to rewrite it and I know this one needs improvement. Thanks for your time. BJ |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Just a novice myself, Brother John, so I doubt that I could be much help other than passing along tips I’ve received (cutting excessive modifiers for instance) from some of CA’s best like Moonbeam, Bob K, Grinch and many others. Since CA is a workshop, might I suggest that instead of editing your original poem, you post revisions in the comments thread. That way we can see what direction you’re taking revisions, what areas you’re focusing on. . Also, some of the comments make no sense to readers after the original poem has been edited. For instance, my comment about “unblushfully” got me an email this morning from someone who wanted to know that heck I was doing giving you that as a suggestion. You’d cut the word from your poem, so she thought I was suggesting it. Sometimes it’s a good idea to ask for the kind of help you want. You say the poem needs improvement - what areas do you think are weak and need work, what parts are you satisfied with? Also, what are your goals? For instance, one of mine is to have a poem published in one of my local poetry journals before I’m 25. You’re very welcome, and welcome to CA!  PS - New poster Gabe (Welcome Gabe!) is also working on a sonnet. Maybe you could sort of put your heads together ...? Just a thought. |
||
|
BROTHER JOHN Member
since 2006-04-06
Posts 386 |
A rewrite Beneath the starry skies we find a play With ancient plot, and script and long encore. Beyond life's fibbing props another door, That when unlatched-push hard-is freedom's way. This door is shut by saintly stars who prey And aged playwrights who rewrite to bore. Conformity's the play's e'er more, Rehearsing holy script by childish play. Far from life's trueless stage and weary pace, A person stars in their authenic role Inheiriting a gift of weathly grace. Though a gift, it's possessed by self control Of one's will. An unknown, a faceless face To Broadway, stars by honoring her soul! [This message has been edited by BROTHER JOHN (08-12-2008 04:28 PM).] |
||
|
Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
John, This is not a bad sonnet. But I find some small flaws in the meter and sentence-structure to add up enough to weaken it. For example, in the first line you have "a", an unstressed function word, where the meter expects a stress, a missing syllable in the second line and "plot" (normally stressed) where the iambic measure expects there to be no stress. You also hide the letter i of is a bit too often, as in "there's" "props' " "door's", "Conformity's", "one's", etc. I find this a bad habit that often results in using "is" too often. If you adjust these things, it may flow much better. Here is how my suggestion may work for the first stanza: Beneath the starry skies we find a play With ancient plot, and script and long encore. Beyond life's fibbing props another door; That when unlatched --push hard!--is freedom's way. You should mention at least one Greek god too I hope that helps for now. |
||
|
BROTHER JOHN Member
since 2006-04-06
Posts 386 |
Dear Essorant, You do not know how much this means to me. You point the way beyond my errors. I knew about the is problem. A source I have in writing poetry says to stay away from verbs of being in poetry as much as possible. I see this, yet there are times one cannot. So I have tried to hide it and you have noted I do not. A question: Is it permissible to drop helping verbs in poetry. Please note line 4. Could it be written, "This door shut ...?" I am just not sure about helping verbs and need help. Also look at lines 9-11 and see if the grammar is correct. This type of structure leaves me in doubt. Too, is it permissible to have more or less than 10 beats in one line? When I read the great writers of poetry, they did not alway follow the rule. As to referring to ancient lore, I was rebuffed by one. I read the great poets and the ancient myths are used as plots, illustrations etc. In writing this poem, Procrustes kept coming to my mind. Have a blessed day. BJ |
||
|
Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
John, quote: Yes. But shut is a stress where the meter doesn't want a stress. You need an unstressed syllable there. Try "This door is shut". quote: The grammar is alright, but the meter and sentence-flow may be improved. "Stage"is a stress, but you have it where the meter asks for an unstressed syllable. You also have the unstressed function word "an" in the stress position in line ten. I am not sure about "demanding more" in line seven "there resides a place" in line nine. Those part of the lines have an awkward end with words that have an awkward dependance on the next line. A little adjustment may make it sound more complete: Conformity, the play, demands e'er more, Far from life's truthless stage and weary pace, One stars within his own authentic role Inheriting a gift of wealthy grace. Notice how I worked the lines so none ends on a word that is very grammatically dependant on a word in the next line, with "more" in line seven being made a noun in its own line, instead of an adjective dependant on the first word of line eight. I would also recommend eschewing informal words such as "showbiz". They take away from the formalness and earnest poeticness of the poem. I hope that helps. [This message has been edited by Essorant (08-11-2008 04:06 AM).] |
||
|
Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Brother John, Which moderns are you reading? Which modern metrical writers are you reading, if you are clear on wishing to limit yourself to the tradition? Everybody else is making terrific comments that you could incorporate into your work and derive benefit from, but until you understand what people are publishing and using to push the edges of the art, you will find what other people say to you about the art and their opinions of it difficult to contextualize. And I suspect you will be missing the excitement of the living language and the contributions others are making to it. Best wishes, BobK |
||
|
moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
BJ I haven't commented on this poem or your poems in Open simply because I don't think I can offer you much more help. I have to admit that while you write in this rather outdated manner I personally don't find much to fill me with enthusiam. All I can do is firmly echo what BobK has said above. Good luck. M |
||
|
BROTHER JOHN Member
since 2006-04-06
Posts 386 |
Dear Moonbeam, I thank you for your kind remarks. These are like "apples of gold in pictures of silver". May I answer these remarks in your own words. "It always is a pleasure to work with people who appreciate help and listen to advice. No need to take it of course." In speaking of the sonnet form: "But I"ve learned here in PiP that there are many readers out there who don't find contemporary . . . to their liking." On 8-4-08 you posted a sonnet that you said meant much to you. It was written by Ann Drysdale, "New Fruit". Below this you included a sonnet you had written. Strangely, your own sonnet has been deleted. The edited date shows that something was altered. Why, the deletion of your own sonnet. I may have over looked it, but I have been over the postings since I first posted and cannot find it. The meat of the evidence has been taken away. Why? 8-4-8 posting. "John, this is one of the most enjoyable of sonnets I have read ... "101 Sonnets by Don Paterson." 8-4-8 posting: "You are a poppet. also a promising writer. Iknow I can be a bit brash... ." Your last posting: "I have to admit that while you write in this outdated manner, I personally don't find much to fill me with enthusiam." Your own quotes show contradictions and your last quote nails it. You are filled with enthusiam when? I am a tottler in this, a learner. Since I retired, I have grown to respect poetry. In my 8 years of higher education,it was basically prose oriented. A hunger developed to try to write poetry and I needed a form (crib) to start with. I know there are many forms and I respect all, including free verse. As of now, I am on the bottle and have messed in my patties many times. May I quote the following: "With respect to sonnets, the theme of love was given. By knowing how love themes were elaborated in the early Renaissance, you can prepare for the surprise created in the late Renaissance, when sonnet writers switched . . . to a governing theme to worship of God. Once you can grasp in a general way this religious inflection given to a verse form identified with secular love, you can begin to appreciate the great political and philosophical sonnets in which later writers enlarge the sonnets scope." "A Poet's Guide To Poetry," by Mary Kinzie, p.10 The forms and topics still continue. I respect the way you write, but you have said, you have problems with my way. Yet, you have written sonnets. The one that was deleted even rhymed. Moonbeam, I see another agenda at work and I need not go any longer on this. Yes, you have helped me and I am indebted to you. I have asked for forgiveness and that is all I can do. Blessings on you and may your best days be ahead for you. |
||
|
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Thanks for the tip on the Patterson book, Moonbeam. I've read a few excerpts and the sonnets are marvelous! Amazon has it used for $12 and change. Brother John, if sonnets are what you like to write, keep at it! Ess is marvelous with meter and rhyme and knows the classics like the back of his hand. I'm sure he'd be willing to work with you, as he has time, if you ask. |
||
|
moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
John There's really no mystery, no hidden agenda. It's quite simple. Taken out of context isolated quotes can of course seem confusing, even contradictory, so let's briefly (because I am tired ) set the record as straight as I can:1 I have no quarrel with you as a person whatsoever, no need for all this forgiveness routine! I respect you. I respect what you are trying to do. And on occasions like when you apologised very graciously for what you said, you are indeed worthy of the noble appellation "poppet"  2 You forgot to cite my expressed underlying position: "I like nearly all well written poetry" - that includes sonnets or any other form for that matter. 3 I liked your first sonnet here for the reasons stated in my critiques. 4 I was not so keen on the subsequent one for the reasons stated in my critiques. 5 I was kind of indifferent to the third one; better than the second. But I agreed with the comments BobK was making to you. 6 I DO think you have great potential as a poet. Just because I happen not to think much of a few poems you have posted doesn't change that view. For heavens sake, if I'd despaired for every time someone hasn't like my poetry I'd be in an asylum by now. 7 There's a misunderstanding. When I say I am not filled with enthusiasm for your work I don't mean I don't like your work because it's a sonnet. As you have pointed out I have posted you a sonnet I do like and I have written them myself (I couldn't leave that one of mine up because it may be published, I'll e-mail it to you if you wish). The reason I was indifferent to your last post was simply because the sonnet you wrote imo is not embracing the possibilities of modern writing. Perhaps I will never be overly enthusiastic about your way of writing - but that doesn't make it WRONG. Your poem was actually quite technically adept. Which is why I say that you do have the potential to write in a manner that IS likely to appeal to me. You just aren't doing it yet Is that any clearer? Does it resolve the apparent contradictions? I hope so. If not, come right back at me! I have Mary Kinzie's book and quite a demanding read it is too! I haven't looked it up, but in that passage Kinzie appears to be simply expounding a historical position. I'm kind of thinking to myself: "so what"? I'm wondering why you are reading about the niceties of the sonnet's development over the centuries when you could be reading what is being written NOW in sonnet form, and getting yourself out of history and into the cutting edge of the present, or even dare I say it, BJ leading the way into the future! Grab the possibilities! Push the boundaries! I can find you some more modern sonnets online if you want. Best. M |
||
|
Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
I like sonnets but I have to be honest I don’t like this one. Rightly or wrongly I get the impression that it’s written to sound poetic, as if you’ve taken the picture postcard a priori idea of what a poem should sound like and written a poem within the constraints and restrictions of that template. By template I don’t mean the poetic form, the sonnet, but the form or use of language. If I were to give an analogy it would be like watching a re-enactment of a battle from the English civil war - I may stand and watch and get some essence of what it might have been like on Marston moor in 1644 but it never feels real. I think that’s it - this didn’t feel like a real sonnet. That may be what Bob and Moon were intimating, not that the poetic form was outdated but that the poem’s form - the language and how it is used felt outdated. I better point out that there’s nothing wrong with either sonnets or in fact writing in, what some call, an archaic manner. Ess manages to pull it off all the time, still not my cup of tea btw but at least it feels right when I read it, this poem fails in that regard. Maybe a push in either direction is the way to go, either a modern sonnet or a full recreation of a traditional sonnet, in full blown archaic splendour. I still probably wouldn't like the latter but it might feel better. Just my honest opinion , probably wrong, easily ignored if you don’t agree. |
||
|
BROTHER JOHN Member
since 2006-04-06
Posts 386 |
Dear Moonbeam, You are a gentleman. I did like your sonnet which you wrote and I now understand why it was deleted. I am not afraid to push the boundaries. My problem is I have not learned the basics where I am. I want to post a poem in which you shall see my philosophy. I want to live on the cutting edge. Poetry turns me on. I just need some basics. When I think I have got something "down", bang, I have got it wrong. I still do not understand metter. When I scan a known writer, I see words like: the, is , has, as, accented. I am confused. I read poetry construction books and get different view points on this. One I read said, count only the accents as a beat. I have posted, as you know, several on the open forum. I asked for help there ,and got little,except some "praise". I knew there were technical things wrong. Then I found CA. There is something mystical about poetry, something spiritual. So I am not here for praise, but to learn. Let me start where I am and when I get the techs down, I am willing to sail in unknown waters. For now, the sonnet is where I am. Already, I have seen the problem of a set rhyme scheme. Sometimes I do not need 14 lines or I need more. So just be patience with me. BJ Thanks. |
||
|
BROTHER JOHN Member
since 2006-04-06
Posts 386 |
Dear Grinch, Thanks for your comments. You are a teacher to me and I hope to learn from you. BJ |
||
|
BROTHER JOHN Member
since 2006-04-06
Posts 386 |
Dear Jennifer, You have been helpful. I have read some of your work and I wish I were your equal. Thanks again. BJ |
||
|
Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Brother John, I think sonnets are fine, myself. I think, though, that I need to offer you some examples of what I've been talking about in terms of more modern diction. These aren't even particularly modern, and one of them isn't a sonnet but four stanzas of rhyming couplets; I think it's worth looking at anyway to see the way the language moves and to catch the imagery. Also to get a sense of the varieties of ways people handle typical sonnet type issues. The metrics are as good as any classic metrics you'll find anywhere. http://homepages.wmich.edu/~cooneys/poems/auden.stop.html http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/15548 http://famouspoetsandpoems.com/poets/w__h__auden/poems/10062 http://katebenedict.com/SonnetDaughter.htm The last two references are the ones you'll probably want to check out most carefully. Both are sonnets, while the first two are not, only formal and extremely fine poems. That really should be enough in itself, but you've wanted to set yourself a limited introduction here, and your wishes deserve respect. You’ll notice, if you look closely at e.e. cummings, the man with the reputation as the shaggy radical poet, that a lot of his more radical looking poems are actually sonnets with typography rearranged on the page, and are as formal as any of his 19th century brothers in many ways. Some of them are even sestinas and other formal and eccentric pieces, again with typography and lineation freely messed up. The Auden above is all formal. He may have written some free verse, but probably not very much of it. Some of the Auden was read aloud in one scene of the movie Four Weddings and a Funeral: A high point, in my opinion. Sincerely yours, BobK |
||
|
Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: The first thing to learn is that the kid sitting next to you with the blank expression and the broken pencil (me) probably isn’t the teacher. The schoolroom choked with claustrophobic lines Of naked desks that mirror naked minds Is steeped in educationary truth Yet all of it is wasted on this youth I’ve never grasped the fundamental part That meter plays when practising my art I know the beats should fall like ONE two THREE But the only thing that’s stressed it seems is me! |
||
|
Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
John quote: It may help to make the distinction more clearly between stress and beat. A meter is a pattern of beats. We predominately arrange words so that the stresses (stressed syllables) go where the meter asks for a beat and the unstressed syllables where the meter doesn't ask for a beat. This is how it predominately it goes, but not completely. What rule doesn't have an exception? Even though most beats are made by using stressed syllables, an unstressed syllable may also get away as a beat in a poem. Certain contexts may allow it more than others. For example, a normal line with "the" in it, no matter where you put "the", it is not going to get away very well as trying to maintain a beat, unless there is a very specific special emphasis (as saying "that is THE problem). A preposition such as "of" however gets away with it much easier: "Alas! that Scottish maid should sing The combat where her lover fell! That Scottish bard should wake the string, The triumph of our foes to tell!" Every second syllable is a beat in these lines and every beat is made by a syllable that has stress, except the word "of". The word "of" doesn't have (normal) stress. But since it is very grammatically important, and the meter is already established, it easily adapts to the meter and succeeds in being a beat. The only difference is that it is a slightly quicker beat because it doesn't have (normal) stress. Does that clear up why such words scan as if they are "stressed/accented"? [This message has been edited by Essorant (08-12-2008 10:18 PM).] |
||
|
BROTHER JOHN Member
since 2006-04-06
Posts 386 |
Dear Essorant, Thanks for the help. What threw me was that yesterday you told me that the stress should come on the word shut. I know the wording was awkward. But there were ten beats in the line as it stood. You asked me to rewrite it;" the door is shut." The construction I had was, "The door's shut." There were still 10 beats the way I had it. You said that the word shut should be stressed. I have read authors who sometimes do not stress some words like an, a, etc. One author said that only stressed syllables should counted as a beat. That was a new one for me. Getting back to the word shut. Are action verbs to be placed where they get the stress marks? I still do not understand fully about prepostions being stressed or not. If they fall on a stressed beat of not, what determines the outcome? Are you saying that some prepositions do not have to be counted in a line? I had thought of posting a humorous sonnet for CA. What is your thinking on this? BJ |
||
|
BROTHER JOHN Member
since 2006-04-06
Posts 386 |
Dear Grinch, You have a way with words. I learn just by reading your writings. Thanks. BJ |
||
|
Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
The beat should only be on every second syllable (2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th) in a line. But you had the stressed word shut as the third syllable. In order not to have a beat as the third syllable you need regularily to avoid stress syllables such as shut, otherwise you have too much stress and it ruins the metrical puissance. One syllable Function Words are the only words that have no stress at all. Every other word has a syllable with stress. In a word with more than one syllable, you need to hear which syllable has the stress on it, such as the third syllable of expecTATion. But a longer word such as expectation also uses more than just the stress as a beat. Every second syllable away from the main stress in such a word may be used as a beat. Therefore amidst iambic meter one generally scans it as "...an EXpecTATion...", not "...an expecTATion..." That is another reason why it is important not to confuse stresses and beats. "EX" is not the word-stress of the word expectation, but it is used as a beat in the iambic meter. Hope that makes at least an inch of sense |
||
|
moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: I am the epitome of patience, as everyone here will tell you. |
||
|
moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Ok BJ ... so you want to know what I mean by writing in a "modern" way, pushing the boundaries, even in a formal setting. Well here: http://www.mikesnider.org/poetry/index.html is a poet I very much respect, who is a real formalist. A lot of his work is written in sonnet form and lots of other interesting forms too. Yet when I read him I'm hardly even aware that he's actually working to a form, the writing is just so natural and contemporary. Check out the link above. If you delve into the navigation bar at the top of the page you will find quite a few of his poems and if you feel inclined you could buy Mike's chapbook of 44 wonderfully fresh sonnets too. M |
||
|
|
⇧ top of page ⇧ |
|
| All times are ET (US). All dates are in Year-Month-Day format. | ||
