How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Archives
 Critical Analysis #2 Archive
 Cheers
 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Follow us on Facebook

 This is an Archive. You may post a reply, but new topics are not allowed.

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Create a Greeting Card with this Poem
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Cheers

 Post A Reply   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


0 posted 07-28-2008 05:22 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to Submit your Poem to Passions  View IP for Grinch


Otherwise the dead man walks the world;
Hunched by the knowing of the game,
That the sickle is the pointer to his fate
And the hangman’s noose and cancer are the same.

Past crow and oak the sinner sets his shroud
Against the wind and weather of despair
Sees claws and leaves all rooted in the earth
And north by south he knows he’ll end up there.

The future boatman’s patron counts the tides
On the blade of Dionysus and each breath,
He deems that living life must be the aim
For the flipside of the coin is living death.

© Copyright 2008 Grinch - All Rights Reserved
oceanvu2
Senior Member
since 02-24-2007
Posts 1007
Santa Monica, California, USA


1 posted 07-28-2008 09:22 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Hi Grinch:  Nice to see you in high spirits. Only question is with the first word, "Otherwise."  Seem to be options like regardless, determindly, blank, unknowing, etc.

Seems to be the key word.

Not writing this off as frivolous at all.  It hurts and strikes home.

Best, Jimbeaux   
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


2 posted 07-29-2008 01:37 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

Regardless would be a good option. Also the suggestion that he’s wise in a different way would fit. Both were in my mind as I wrote the line. So was Thomas’s Altarwise by Owl light but if I was to pick one it would be that he was, as we all are, a dead man in waiting or other than dead at that point.

A simpler line would have been:

Alive the man walked the world

But I was aiming for maudlin and obscure so that wouldn‘t do at all.

There are other reasons for the line but they’re probably only in my mind.

  
moonbeam
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 12-24-2005
Posts 2038


3 posted 07-30-2008 07:55 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

You don't change.  Still imbued with the spirit of DT I see, and doing it better than ever.

I love the way you think out every single line and word to squeeze in as much possibility as you can (just as he did).  "Otherwise" is great.  It grabs one immediately as being unusual, and shoots the eyes straight back up to the title and then surging on, or rather back, to remembering DT's own life.  Were it not for the joys and release of the bottle (and all other earthly panaceas) we would all walk the world crippled by the knowledge and fear of our constant little deaths and the final inevitability.  An arguable premise, but an apposite one given the inspiration for the poem and the apparent evidence around us.  And then of course there are the other possibilities of meaning you refer to.  Pure DT.

"Hunched by the knowing" is brilliant.

The last two lines of S1 are less so imo, especially L4 which seems a little "obvious"!

S2 I liked a lot and needs further thought and commentary - no time now, maybe back later.

The switch firmly into mythology in S3 is comfortable and the final two lines clever, but maybe a bit undylanlike in their simplicity, which I guess is fine, but slightly disappointing.  I stumbled over Dionysus which disrupts the meter too much imo, and wondered why you didn't use Bacchus which alliterates with blade and would only demand a small adjustment to make the meter perfect.  I researched "blades" in relation to Dionysus and Bacchus, and can only assume that you are driving simply at the idea of the demon drink being both man's escape from the spectre of death while at the same time causing his death.  The idea of skewering on a blade doesn't to my mind sit well with the actuality of the slow decline usually engendered by alcohol.  

The other quibble I have is with S3 is the phrase "future boatman's patron".  Quite apart from the reference to Charon's patron as being a rather cumbersome way to describe man, the syntax is confusing.  The boatman is a future boatman?

More later I hope.

M
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


4 posted 07-30-2008 02:37 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Thanks for taking a look Mr Moon, your crits are always worth reading and much appreciated.

Why Dionysus?

It was going to be Damocles, a reference to his sword and all that, but when researching Damocles I discovered the King who lent his throne (and the sword) to Damocles happened to have a name derived from that of the God of ale.

I don’t think DT would have been able to resist the irony that the sword of Damocles had a connection to drink, however tenuous. I certainly couldn’t resist it - enter Dionysus  stage left.



I’ve noted your comments and I sort of nearly almost agree with all of them, definitely so with the last two lines - I‘ve hated them since I wrote them. For me it‘s the words “flipside” and “coins“, way too modern and simple in my mind.

I’ll take your advice and try an edit or two.

Thanks again

Craig
MOCindy
Member
since 07-30-2008
Posts 74


5 posted 07-30-2008 06:17 PM       View Profile for MOCindy   Email MOCindy   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for MOCindy

I agree with Moonbeam. This poem is very close to Dylan Thomas's style. And one of your best poem, I shall say.

C
moonbeam
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 12-24-2005
Posts 2038


6 posted 07-31-2008 06:14 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Craig

Yes I see what you mean about the sword/drink connection.  I knew you'd have reason, I just couldn't fathom it.  Still looking at S2 but I need to be fully functional to come up with anything useful, and right now I'm not.  Roll on the weekend.

And thanks for the kind words too.

M
moonbeam
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 12-24-2005
Posts 2038


7 posted 08-03-2008 08:22 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

"Past crow and oak the sinner sets his shroud
Against the wind and weather of despair
Sees claws and leaves all rooted in the earth
And north by south he knows he'll end up there."

I love this stuff, it's so darned dense!

"Wind and weather of despair", especially following on from a line as good as S2L1 comes off as being a little too familiar.  I googled the precise phrase and didn't come up with any hits, but it's simply the usualness of marrying weather (especially winter and wind) to despair that unsettles me.  Against that though, it's a line that is so easy on the ear and so smooth, that it seems a shame to tamper.

I loved S2L1.  Immediate images of dark skies crows wheeling and a single crow sitting on a dead branch of a single oak on a desolate moorland, from which hangs a noosed rope with it's grisly dangling umbrella of bones and flesh.  Along the road trudges the miserable soaked sinner cloaked in the grey cape that grows around us all from birth - to shield him from the rain and the sight next to the road.  The words "sets" is great.  Connotations of setting a sail/shroud to scurry past quickly, and also of setting a jaw against adversity or, more particularly, the inevitable.  Or, with great irony, simply setting the shroud in front of his eyes to blank out the fact of his own fate and despair.

And looking down the traveller sees all material things returning to the earth - both the animal and the arboreal, both the fierce and offensive and the innocuous and mild - all end up in the same place.  "Rooted" though suddenly suggests that not only does all life end up back in the earth, but that in fact it has always been there.  Our very births are as the trees and grass.  We might appear to be physically separated, but in fact our materiality binds us always to the earth from which we grow and as part of which we exist.  Given discoveries about the longevity of atoms and the way they are shared between organisms and objects through time, this is probably quite a literal contention.

The "north by south" thing worried me a little as I am probably missing a literary or DT?  allusion.  Still, it worked for me as a throw back to the idea of setting a sail, and also simply as the suggestion that, whichever way we turn, however far we try to travel, in whatever direction, we cannot escape our fate.

Very nice Craig.

M
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


8 posted 02-22-2009 01:07 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


North by south?

It’s a full circle Rob.

Going north or south gets you to the same destination - one way just takes longer and is harder than the other.

turtle
Member
since 01-23-2009
Posts 491
Harbor


9 posted 02-22-2009 01:56 PM       View Profile for turtle   Email turtle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for turtle

Hi Grinch,

This is absolutely great The subtlties of the use of this form shows thoughtful planning.

And the title?

Do you mean that as a toast, or what better choice is there to make?

I like "otherwise" it is perfect. What other choice does he have? perfect!

I'm not sure about "sickle" Hmmm...It might suggest sickly confusing the reader
into thinking this is about physical illness.

"Against the wind and weather of despair"

I love this! You bring the reader back to the subject.

"The future boatman’s patron counts the tides"

A very coy metaphor.      

"He deems that living life must be the aim
For the flipside of the coin is living death"

Excellent!

This is some truely deep thought Grinch. I am impressed Sir, and pleased to meet you.

BTW - The punctuation?   lol
    



[This message has been edited by turtle (02-22-2009 03:51 PM).]

Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


10 posted 02-22-2009 07:41 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

Thanks for reading Turtle.

quote:
Do you mean that as a toast


I’ll drink to that.

Also multiples of cheer to balance the dour nature of death, a phonetic resemblance to tears and a summation of what the dead man might offer as a single word reflection of life and unavoidable death. In my mind he’s smiling as he says it - think Jack Sparrow.

quote:
I'm not sure about "sickle"


Death’s scythe always points the way, though now I think of it pointer needs to be tied into the poem more, especially the nautical reference:

That the sickle is a compass to his fate

Better?

Punctuation? In poems I use full stops for long pauses, commas for short pauses and semicolons for somewhere in-between. Normally there’s only me reading them so nobody minds or notices. I'll take more care in future.

    
 
 Post A Reply   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Archives >> Critical Analysis #2 >> Cheers Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Create a Greeting Card with this Poem
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors