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Day Laborers
| Critical Analysis #2 |
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Day Laborers |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Day Laborers Consensually, we break the law, the men Who sit outside Home Depot; the men, like Me, who pay ten bucks an hour for their sweat. They sell their agile backs. I buy. And yet I would have more to this than eight times ten. Aqui, aya, some pointing, and these willing Folk will move a household in a day. I wish for so much more, to know, but then, Each word, my baby talk, seems like a strike Against their souls. What is this dread, the threat Of others meeting others? I cook my best; In sharing food with smiles, assert our kin. We won’t remember names. More chilling Is the mercantile numbness of the day. Since I'm yappin again, I thought it was only fair to put one up. Best, Jimbeaux  [This message has been edited by oceanvu2 (06-19-2008 12:58 AM).] |
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graeshine2006 Member
since 2008-06-03
Posts 368The Prairie Lands, USA |
Lol... I didn't get on to critique... I just liked your last line! |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
graeshine2006: Go, Go, critique away! That's what this particular forum is about. There are no geniuses on board just people who want to talk about stuff. Best, Jimbeaux |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I think this captures a moment we don't like to talk about. quote: An attack on rationalization theory? A need to move beyond 'social property relations' -- a need for human -- what? -- validation? Great! |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
Ocean, I like your poem and it says much more than the title suggest. I would bring the title up to the intellectual speed of the poem. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Jim, Good to see some of your stuff again. Congrats about Nelly! Great kick off!, up to "the men" in the first line. You're selling the premise of how two groups break the law and you want to make it painlessly clear that you're going off now and are going to tell folks what these two groups are going to be. I think the comma doesn't make that clear here, it simply seems to indicate a pause and not that you're about to clarify things, to keep that initial clear kick off moving. You might try a colon ( or a dash (—) or elipses (. . .). While formerly I'd probably have gone for the colon, these days I might try putting a period after "the law" and begin a sentence fragment with "The men"...Instead of the semicolon after "Depot," I'd go for a comma, and substitute "and" for "the" immediately following. Do you actually think backs are "agile"? Rabbits or badgers or even fingers, sure, but I'd think of backs in other terms. Certainly I wouldn't hire for agility but some sort of quality like strength. And what they sell would be the appearance of strength, not necessarily the strength itself. It's a form of male prostitution, isn't it?, simply not about sex. I think your poem is about the John's hope for at least the illusion of love. The victimless crime. Yes, of course, you strike against their souls with the baby talk. By using the word, though, you lose it. You have the chance here to find a description of a physical action that will produce a literal physical feeling of being punched in the soul. If you use the word soul, however, a good portion of your readers are going to say, Huh? Where's that?" and you'll be off on a debate in theology in your reader's head instead of having your reader with his or hand guarding his or her throat, where it out to be. Or eyes. Or whatever you feel is the gateway to the soul. Somewhere in the New T., a lovely image has stayed with me for many years, "The eye is the lamp of the body." How do you top that one, Jim? Sharing food with smiles, I assert our kin. I don't know that it's a great leap forward, but it seems to offer a bit more clarity and to put the speaker a little bit more into the poem at that point. I don't know for sure. The last line I think is a big problem. I think that it makes intellectual sense, but it is more a summary of the business of the first stanza, and it seems to have very little to do with the second stanza. It heads back to the alienation of stanza one without showing the speaker's attempts to transcend it, nor the responses of the hired men to the speaker's efforts. I think you'll need to find another end strategy. The word "mercantile" for me makes itself felt with the authority of a golf ball under the pad of a desk chair. Bob says "Youch!" Hope the feedback's some use. I think the poem needs some work, but that it's pretty good. Pat on the back, Jim, keep on, keep on. I'll be out of town by the way, starting Tuesday, for a while. All my best, BobK. Consensually, we break the law, the men Who sit outside Home Depot; the men, like Me, who pay ten bucks an hour for their sweat. They sell their agile backs. I buy. And yet I would have more to this than eight times ten. Aqui, aya, some pointing, and these willing Folk will move a household in a day. I wish for so much more, to know, but then, Each word, my baby talk, seems like a strike Against their souls. What is this dread, the threat Of others meeting others? I cook my best; In sharing food with smiles, assert our kin. We won’t remember names. More chilling Is the mercantile numbness of the day. |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Hi Bob and thank you for your time. In reading this with your comments in mind, I think in part the poem is a victim of adherence to a form. (It may not be a recognizable form, none the less, it’s “Formal.”) “Great kick off!, up to "the men" in the first line.” etc:” I’ll buy the punctuation suggestions, coming up with: Consensually, we break the law. The men Who sit outside Home Depot, and men, like Me, who pay ten bucks an hour for their sweat. Works better with your suggestions, and personalizes it. It’s about one person’s, the poet’s, reactions to a mundane transaction, totally illegal, yet totally accepted as “the way things work.” on both sides. Can a back express “agility?” Oh yeah, at least given the nature of my back, which is non-agile to the max. I barely bend forward and don’t bend backwards, though I twist. May have been too personal a choice of words, but “strength” is not quite the point. In this instance, as the poem becomes more personalized through your accepted edits, “agility,” the ability to bend down and pick something up, is the key. On the other hand, this may be the point in my head, and not the point on the page. “And what they sell would be the appearance of strength, not necessarily the strength itself. It's a form of male prostitution, isn't it?, simply not about sex. I think your poem is about the John's hope for at least the illusion of love. The victimless crime.” Well, that’s a very interesting comment. I didn’t have that in mind, but yeah, all labor seems to be a form of male or female prostitution. One’s sells one’s body for cash. I don’t consciously use metaphor, but maybe there is one in here. It might be, probably is, about the John’s hope for at least the illusion of “community.” I don’t think it’s a victimless crime being discussed. Both employer and employee are victims of a system which openly tolerates, but refuses to sanction, a day to day reality. This thought came up: Why doesn’t the poet or any one else just hire a moving company? There is no difference, except an additional layer of distance between employer/employee which might make the employer feel better. Who, might one might ask, do “moving companies hire? The men who sit outside Home Depot. “Yes, of course, you strike against their souls with the baby talk.” Yes, “souls” may or may not be appropriate. The correct words might be “dignity” or “human essence.” I see your point that the use of “souls” might be confusing in that some reader’s have a thing about “souls” per se. It’s an example of form deflecting meaning or intent. “Somewhere in the New T., a lovely image has stayed with me for many years, "The eye is the lamp of the body." How do you top that one, Jim?” Can’t top it, but then, I’m not big on metaphysics, metaphor, or the inherent validity of aphorisms. If anything, the eyes seem to be a window with some sort of sunscreen. We look out through them, other’s look in through them, but the results are usually pretty blurry. Extend that notion, and the results involve physics and biology. It’s also metaphysical, he says, laughing again at himself. OK, I think the revisions to the first lines help make the poem more personal, and help set up “Sharing food with smiles, I assert our kin.” “The last line I think is a big problem. I think that it makes intellectual sense, but it is more a summary of the business of the first stanza, and it seems to have very little to do with the second stanza. It heads back to the alienation of stanza one without showing the speaker's attempts to transcend it, nor the responses of the hired men to the speaker's efforts.” Well, we differ. “Sharing food with smiles, I assert our kin.” is an affirmation of the poet’s desire to transform, or transcend the alienation. What’s the first thing people do in an effort to get beyond barriers (after shooting each other)? Offer food. It’s like, ah, primal. In the poem, the reaction of the laborers to any portion of the event is not addressed directly. That would be a different poem, form the laborers point of view. Probably be a better poem, but not one I can write authentically. I think the last two lines are the best in the poem. They express the difficulty, despite best intentions, and maybe the odd moment here and there, for the “other” to connect with the “other.” Thank you so much, Jimbeaux |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Hi Brad: RE: "An attack on rationalization theory? A need to move beyond 'social property relations' -- a need for human -- what? -- validation?" Yup. My essential feeling is that we're all in the same (deleted) boat, and we can help it sink or help it float. "Validation" is key to everyone, I think. We want if from the world down to just one other person who "gets" whom one is, and what one is about. I'm not sure EVERYONE muses about validation as a train of thought, but the desire for, say, peer approval, a form of of "validation" seems to be part of Piping in all forums. Otherwise, why would anybody put stuff up? Nothing wrong with it. It do go on and on. In the world of commerce, it might mean validation through a raise. In a rustic society, the recognition that one is able to feed one's family. In academia, publishing as opposed to perishing, and so on. Sometimes, people receive the validation they seek. Sometimes they recieve they validation they need without knowing it -- it's what keeps people plugging along at any life level or endeavor. And sometimes, the validation is either not there, or rejected. Leads to social pathology. Best, Jimbeaux |
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graeshine2006 Member
since 2008-06-03
Posts 368The Prairie Lands, USA |
Hi Jimbeaux - yeah, what Bob and Brad said... haha... Seriously, I've never been much of a reader of poetry and writing it even less. I'm on here as much to learn as as I am to have a forum to post my thoughts that try to resemble poetry. So, I will not be critiquing (sp?)(unless there is something glaringly obvious like a typo) because honestly, I'm just learning and I don't critique something if I don't understand it, because tomorrow, I may have the knowledge to understand it. Hope that made sense! |
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Ryan Member
since 1999-06-10
Posts 297Kansas |
i believe it is "alla" (with an accent mark over the final a) instead of "aya" (unless you are referring to a cry of exasperation, in which case i've always like "aiya"). |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Ryan -- I'm sure you are right. Babelfish gives me "alli," but what do they know from Spanglish? Thanks, Jimbeaux |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Jim, I really, really like the concept of the poem and yet I fault the premise of it to a degree. On a strictly critique of the construction, I would suggest you not capitalize the first word of each line. Somehow when I go to the capitalized Me, it seemed out of line, but that could just be me. "And yet I would have more to this than eight times ten" is not a sentence. I would tack it on to I buy, with a comma connecting the two. Also I don't understand the line. You would have more to what? Help me out there, please. Nice work, Ryan. Someone from Kansas pointing out correctly Spanisg usage. I like it! The comma after "I wish for so much more" is incorrect. The semicolon after "I cook my best" is incorrect. Why does your "baby talk" (a good way to describe that, btw) become a strike against their souls? If I understand correctly, the poem is actually about two groups of lawbreakers; illegals in the country trying to earn a living and citizens who hire them, knowing they are illegal but cheap. Or perhaps even not illegals, just foreigners willing to work for less to have jobs being hired by men like you or I to save a few bucks by taking advantage of them but since you begin with law-breaking, the first assumption is more likely. I've been around people like this for most of my adult life. It's very easy to have a misconception about them. Your most correct statement in the poem is "these willing folk". Whereas it is easy for us to paint these people as basically slave labor, suffering day to day to eke out a meager living to support their families, many, and I would even go so far as to say most, do not see itthat way at all. You are looking at it from an American point of view. Hard work, menial jobs = poor, suffering folks being taken advantage of. Try looking at it from their point of view, coming from a dirt poor country where they had no work, no way to support their families, no chance for further education or opportunities to better their lot in life, coming to a country where, in one hour they can earn more than a day or two back home, no religious or political prosecution to speak of...Angela may know why the caged bird sings but I know why the field worker whistles. . Again, I like the concept of the poem, with that exception. Painting the two as lawbreakers is good. Having the narrarator feel guilt at participating in the illegality is good. Portraying the workers as unhappy sufferers, selling their sweat in back-breaking work, living lives in quiet desparation by doing jobs we would not do, or at least for salaries we would not accept, is off the mark and even a little degrading to them. For some folks around the world, the best things in life acutally ARE free and they cherish the things we take for granted and do not even appreciate. For the rest, the best things in life mean the things we can't afford. The Indian...the mile...the mocassins  |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
“ Consensually, we break the law “ Ocean, your poem broke no legal law. Maybe it broke a moral law, but no legal law. You are allowed to hire people off the street. The IRS calls it casual labor and no taxes are due on what you pay them. No where in your poem did you mention illegals and it still would not be a crime if you did not know that they were illegal . I still like your poem from a moral point of view. |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Hi Balladeer! Thank you for commenting at length. On the technics, 99% of the time I capitalize the first word in each line of my poems. It's a quirk, and gets questioned often. I understand some folks have objections to that, but it's my quirk and I can live with it. Sorry that the capitalized "Me" threw you for a moment, but it's consistent with a quirky style. Re: "I would have more to this than eight times ten," is a line I've thought about too. I don't mind that it might be technically a sentence fragment. What bothers me is that it is pedestrian iambics. I don't think it is particularly obscure, just an indication that, as the poem follows through, there might be more to human interchange that eight hours of labor for $10.00 an hour. Re: "I wish for so much more, to know, but then," I don't think the comma is incorrect. What may not be effective are the words "to know" There was an intention in my mind that "to know" might imply a wish to understand others beyond the mundane circumstances of work for hire. The semicolon you object in "I cook my best; In sharing food with smiles, assert our kin." I find acceptable. It is the connection of two clauses/thoughts in one sentence, but I won't fight over it. RE: "Each word, my baby talk, seems like a strike Against their souls." If the poem's suggestion is to treat all folk with dignity, then the poet acknowledges his inability to do so. By using baby talk, to which the poet has no alternative or better language the poet is stuck with demeaning pidgen. It's a bit like saying "Beer now, muchee coldee, chop chop!" to a bartender in Hong Kong. Moving on, the poem is making a personal, not a political statement. It is, I think, about the interaction between cultures. It doesn't seem to have as much to do with the political "why's" of a situation, just a recognition of the situation. I'm not sure that it suggests much for the workers beyond it's tough to make a living going casual labor. There is no portrayal of workers as "unhappy sufffers." In fact, there isn't much said in the poem at all about the workers. It's more about those who hire them. OK, enough already. I don't see this as a "political" poem, but you are welcome to look at it that way. Thanks, Jimbeaux |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Hi, Jim.. Thanks for responding to my comment. Nope, I didn't see it as really a political poem, either, and I do understand the interaction. The main reasons why I felt the workers were being protrayed in the manner in which I suggested were the phrases "for their sweat" and "they sell their agile backs". If you mean that those phrases were simply descriptive without any other meaning, I can see that. too. The "eight times ten" I would never get. It's one of those things easy to understand when pointed out but I could find nothing in the poem that could explain that it referred to hours and dollars (although I confess that I am one of those who occasionally can't see the forest for the trees). As far as the "demeaning pidgen", I thought back to all of my past (and present) experiences with that. Believe me, it happens all the time here in Miami I'll agree that if one were to use that language on people who actually did have some kind of command of English, it would be degrading, although it would be obvious that it was not intentional. Foreigners with practically no English vocabulary actually appreciate the "baby talk" or any attept to communicate with them. True, they may feel disheartened or even angry that they are in a position where someone has to communicate with them that way, but the feeling wouldn't be against the speaker and I just can't picture it as a "strike against their souls". It's just a condition created by circumstances, that's all. I've been on the other side of the fence (no pun intended) in countries where I had an extremely limited vocabulary and, believe me, I did not find that pidgen demeaning at all. I would have been lost without it! For that reason, I just find the "strike against their souls" as being out of place....just my observation. |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
Ocean, your poems has brought out more comments on content than any recent poem. Recently, I saw a one word bumper sticker “DRILL’’ I got it in about a micro second and that is about how long it took me to get your “8x10” line. I totally except your "Each word, mytalk, seems like a strike Against their souls." As I knew it was from the point of view of the speaker. And, that is understandable as the speaker ~ Don’t know what he don’t know ~ Yesterday I was at a yard sale when a Mexican shopper picked up a item and ask his companion in Spanish how much is this. I ask the lady who’s yard sale it was, how much is the item the gentleman is holding ? She said, five dollars. Then I told the Mexican in broken Spanish , or baby talk, “Senor, the item is five dollars.” He gave me the biggest smile and took five dollars out of his pocket. I don’t know if the smile was because he heard someone speaking his language or that the item was such a damn good bargain. |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Hi Rubester, er, Chopsticks. You know, because you follow these threads, that I'm not much inclined to use much in the way of metaphor, again a personal quirk. If the meaning isn't on the surface, it pretty much isn't hidden somewhere else. I'm suprised at the interest in this paerticular poem, because it isn't a particularly good one, thought I don't find it embarassing. It's like the "B" side on a hit single (simile). Haven't come up with the "A" side (metaphor?" yet. Maybe the interest in "content" stems from an ever increasing commonality of experience not only in big cities, but now pretty much across the country, as your and Balladeer's experiences suggest. While I can read and write classical Spanish, I have no gift for speaking it. And the multiple Cuban/Dominican/Salvadoran/Mexican dialects leave me reeling. There are laws in the offing and in effect (if under challenge) which promote or require "English use only" as national, state, or local policy. We're not unique in this. France, if I am correct, bans the use of non-French words. OK, so countries tend to be xenophobic. I think we might benefit from some sort of "English works best in the US policy," and speakers of other languages would do well to learn in order to get ahead. Something like that is promoted by the many ESL adult classes offered across the nation. If, in a fantasy, I could retire to a beach cottage in Costa Rica, I'd probably take an "SSL" Spanbish class, just to be able to navigate a grocery store without relying solely on the pictures on cans and boxes. Having grown up in New Jersey, I found that I apparently speak a patois which was incomprehsible to my neighbor's while stationed in South Carolina and Georgia. And I can barely understand the "English" of my Scots relatives when we visit. But, when the English is written down, at least we can all read it. This is sort of belaboring a minor point. The question in the poem was, "How do we get past the Tower of Babel? Babbling on, Jimbeaux |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I think that answer is pretty simple, Jim....kindness and respect. I could handle pidgen in any language used on me if I knew that the people were using it kindly and doing it with respect. I can assure you the Cuban and Haitians down here feel that way, from the big smiles on their faces when you do your best to say something in a way they can understand, even if it would be considered "baby talk" to an English-speaking person. Respect is all anyone asks for and it speaks much louder than any other language. |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
“ Respect is all anyone asks for and it speaks much louder than any other language.” I have a friend who’s father is from the old country, and he speaks very little English . When I happen to see him I will say a few words in his native tongue. After reading your poem , I ask my friend did I offend his father when I spoke baby talk to him ? His answer was a resounding, no, does his broken English offend you? |
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