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Scandal
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Scandal |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
A school sex scandal was suppressed that year; That's what it seemed, but what remembrance brings: Your accent and perfume, your violent leer, Mascara running, running hose, nose rings And blood and that not quite quiescent rage Make me rethink and reason through our youth. I do not blame it now on facile 'age' Or the expulsion threat or threat of truth Becoming public. They did not say right Was wrong and wrong was right. It was not you Who let our one night stand only one night. I reasoned reason and through reason too Know that the world is darker for that day, For I did not let feeling rule my way. [This message has been edited by Brad (03-01-2008 03:58 PM).] |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
what a topic. It hurts to read it. I hope that this is a fictional Sonnet. I like this one. A school sex scandal was suppressed that year;-----how can I stress was and year here? Mascara running, running hose, nose rings And blood and that not quite quiescent rage Makes me rethink and reason through our youth. Or the expulsion threat or threat of truth Becoming public. They did not say right Was wrong and wrong was right. It was not you Who let our one night stand only one night. I reasoned reason and through reason too I Know that the world is darker for that day, Like last one, why not use pure iambic feet? Or you think that your way sounded better? |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Brad, you may call me dense and I won't disagree, or maybe it's the late hour, but I'm lost here. Grammatically, I don't understand the comma ending the first line, nor the colon ending line two. In the understanding part, what has happened here? The girl is described as having an accent, hose with runners, nose rings and blood from somewhere and wearing a violent leer. Who is this? The victim? The perpetrator? The partner? Why would the victim have a violent leer? Why would the person with the violent leer be bleeding? Where's the blood from? Who is John Galt?The more I study it the more confused I get. I read it to my girlfriend, who is the abstract and free verse side of the family, and she missed it, too. There may be a very good explanation I'm just not seeing and will feel silly when it's pointed out but, for the life of me, I can't see it now. The only other comment is on the three words strung together in the first line.......school sex scandal. Those are three tough words to pronounce together, even mentally, unless one is part snake. I believe a separation would serve better, like a sex scandal at school... |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Brad: I thought your poem was well done. I'm not sure if I'm going to have the time to give it a thorough review, but I wanted to point out a few things I saw. quote: I recall reading in Pinsky about how some see more than two levels of accent when scanning poetry. "A school sex scandal …" reads to me as 1-2-3-2-1 (the highest number being the highest degree of accent). That is how my natural reading of the first few words sounds to my ear. I wouldn't advise changing it, as it frames the word "sex" (which seems at first glance to be a focal point of the poem). I don't think I could have done it any better myself. The phrase "but what remembrance brings" at the end of L2 seems a little forced to accommodate the syllable count and rhyme, but I cannot think on the fly on how to reword it in a way that keeps you "brings/rings" rhyme intact. But if it is a flaw, I don't think it is a big one. quote: I like the conflict of images here. The "mascara running" belies the tough exterior - I pictured it as emo/punk/goth. I think you need some hyphenation to tie together "not-quite-quiescent rage" … I think this would add to reading of the line. The word "blood" also connotes a virginal meaning - that this was the young woman's first time. I suspect the conflict of images is what prompts the speaker's reflection. quote: I thought this was a great set-up for your couplet. Had to re-look up facile (last I saw that word was in Milton). Had a funny conversation with a lawyer once who was convinced that people use the word "comport" in everyday conversation. Would be interesting to know whether academics use "facile" regularly over coffee in the teacher's lounge. Technically, it appears spot on. But it IS playing a supportive roll, so it gets it's Emmy and now we move on.  quote: You cheated a little bit here, but I'm okay with that … it works for me. In fact, I don't see how you can do the poem justice without tacking L12 onto L13 & L14. I also noticed the interesting thing you did with the rhyme at the end of L12. Haven't seen that done before, but it didn't really stand out to me when reading it aloud. I'm not sure if this was an oversight on your part or a clever trick. In either case, I don't think it detracts too much from the poem (except that it seems to stretch convention a little far). My take-away from the final lines is that it wasn't fear of getting caught and punished, youthful whim, or the other person who darkened that day. It was the act of rationalization - of false reflection - as opposed to listening to conscience, that caused the harm (and possibly guilt later in life). I also can't help but sense that the poem is metaphoric in some respects - the title tends to lead me down that road. All you need to say is, "it might be" and I'll explore that vein further.  Thanks for the read, Brad. Jim |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I fixed that 'cheat'. Honestly, I just didn't see it (I thought it was the cursor). Jim, as far as I can tell, you read it the same way I do. Mike, L1 has a semi-colon, not a comma. When I have more time, I'll make a pitch for the colon and the 'heap of broken images' in the first quatrain. TM, I'll be back. I got some 'splainen' to do. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
The following is primarily a response to TM. Jim and Mike, I'll try to get to your points later, but I don't see any reason to wade through this. Unless, of course, you want to. x / (x) / x (/) x / x / A school sex scandal was suppressed that year; 1 2 3 4 1 2 1 4 1 4 ―I don't understand why you don't stress 'year'. 'Sex' in the scansion is demoted and 'was' is promoted. That's by the book. Now, Jim gives more weight to 'sex' than this reading shows. He turns the second foot into a trochee (/x) or a spondee (//) ― this is one of the problems when you use a four point scansion system, it's difficult to translate into the traditional system. At any rate, I read it as a rising stress ('school' has more stress than 'the', 'sex' more than 'school', and I finish it off with 'scan'. Where you want the peak to peak, on 'sex' or on 'scan', doesn't seem to hurt the overall rhythm. ―Mike tripped over those three words and I think a legitimate criticism (Well, it's all legitimate) would be that the first line is top heavy. My hope, however, was that you would see the stress in the first half combined with a kind of wistful tone in the second half. Now, honestly, I didn't have this mapped out when I wrote, but I knew that I wanted to use 'suppressed' and was ninety percent sure that year would end the line. x / x / x / x / x / That's what it seemed, but what remembrance brings: --That's how the second line should go. Nothing crazy here. I'll come back to the colon as I see no reason Mike should wade through all this stuff. x / x (/) x / x / x / Your accent and perfume, your violent leer, ―'and' is promoted but everything else should be clear. x / x / x / x / (/) / Mascara running, running hose, nose rings --The only problem here is that last foot. I read it as a spondee. I don't see 'nose' as demoted. I've got internal rhyme (nose/hose) to keep it from being demoted. There is no controversy with a spondaic foot substitution. I don't know how you can read it as a trochee but if you wanted to read it as a heavy iamb, that would be okay, too. What's important, I suppose, is that you don't count the beat in the scansion. We still have five main beats. x / x / (x) / x / x / And blood and that not quite quiescent rage 1 4 1 2 3 4 1 3 1 4 ―'that' is stressed here but not, I think, through promotion, it's stressed in relation to 'and' while 'not' is unstress in relation to 'quite'. This is another example of rising stress. Jim makes an excellent suggestion with the hyphens as a way of making this run clearer. / x x / x / x / x / Makes me rethink and reason through our youth. ―Inverted foot in the first position. One study argues that something like 25 percent of all lines in iambic pentameter contain this substitution. x / x / x / x x / / I do not blame it now on facile 'age' 1 2 3 4 ―pyhrric/spondee (xx//)substitution or double iamb or ionic minor foot. It doesn't matter what you call it, it's pretty much everywhere you look. x (/) x / x / x / x / Or the expulsion threat or threat of truth -- 'the' is promoted. x / x / x / x / (x) / Becoming public. They did not say right 1 3 1 4 1 3 1 2 3 4 ―To me this is another example of rising stress. This can be confusing because of the period. 'They'is stressed in relation to 'ic' of public, 'not' is stressed in relation to 'did'. x / x / x / x / x / Was wrong and wrong was right. It was not you x / x / (x) / / x / / Who let our one night stand only one night. 1 2 1 4 3 4 3 1 3 4 ―If there's any line that I take pride in, this is it. What I like is the reversal of 'one night'. The trochee sub. in the fourth position sets that up. x / x / x x / / x / I reasoned reason and through reason too / x x / x / x (/) x / Know that the world is darker for that day, x / x / x / x / x / For I did not let feeling rule my way. Well, TM, there it is. You asked why I didn't just write it in 'perfect' iambic, but one of the things that we have yet to really broach is the idea of substitution, how it works and/or even why it works. For the last two weeks or so, I've written ten of these and they all have variations on 'perfect' iambic. Why? Mostly, it was for me. I just wanted to push myself and see what happened, but I also thought that I might use my own poetry as a sounding board to larger discussion concerning the role of meter and aesthetics. In critical/academic circles, it is not considered good to be in perfect iambic pentameter (though there is some disagreement on exactly what constitutes some of the specifics). Emerson said that it is not meter, but meter making arguments that make a poem. What he means by that is that the rhythm of the poem should in some way enhance or contrast the theme of the poem. There are many ways to do that and I've tried to do that here. Two points for your consideration: 1. You should always give the writer the benefit of the doubt. It you're not sure if the line is one way or the other, as a trochee or as an iamb, the choice should be for the prominent meter (iamb for iambic, trochee for trochaic). Or of course, ask the writer. 2. How do you know what is a proper substitution? The answer to that question is in your ear, different people will have different approaches, but what I do is simply read famous poems and figure if they can do it, so can I. Now, don't be fooled into thinking that everything I said here somehow makes this a good poem. It doesn't. The only way to determine whether a poem is good or not is to read it as you would read anything else and see if it works for you in some way, personally. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
This is an attempt to address Mike's problems: quote: I've called you many things under my breath over the years, Mike. Dense has never been one of them. quote: As said before, L1 has a semi-colon, not a comma. Essentially, that means L1 should stands as a complete thought, an independent clause, a sentence. Unless I screwed it up, that's what was intended. I'm not sure I understand the problem you have here though. The sentence seems short enough to me that a comma would also be appropriate. L2: That's what it seemed, but what remembrance brings: This one is trickier. The first half is an independent clause, but, by itself, 'what remembrance brings' is a fragment. According to the rules you should have an independent clause there. On this, I plead guilty. The idea was to shift the voice with the colon, a kind of shift in thinking or tone, and then list certain attributes of Sirjarta that I remember (Yes, this is based on a true story). I did screw up on 'makes' and that probably confused the whole thing. My apologies. If you know a better way to 'shift the voice' here, I'm all ears. Still, both Auden and Eliot use colons in odd ways and it seemed, in light of their examples, not unduly confusing to use a colon here (which makes more sense than some of the things they do with it.). quote: ―Auden: "September, 1939" If you hear a shift of tone on the colon in 'September', that's what I want to happen in my piece. quote: Yes, that's right. The details are accurate but incomplete. On the other hand, I don't see how you can not see the significance of these details. quote: ―Ted Hughes, "The Earthenware Head" Perhaps I'm the sculptor here? quote: The 'you', the person the poem is addressing. quote: Okay. quote: Yes. quote: Yes. quote: I don't know, you'd have to ask her. I'm being facetious of course. Are you asking if 'violent' is an appropriate adjective, or are you asking if she would give me, er, the speaker, a look of hate? If it's the latter, I guess we don't just like different types of poetry, we date different types of women. Violent leers, at one time, were a fairly common occurrence for me. quote: On this one, I remain silent. quote: Guess. quote: And this is a perfect ending question. Think about the train ride. quote: I don't know if there's an explanation that will satisfy you. I can say that I answered your questions as sincerely and as accurately as I can. It is based, the trigger point if you will, on a true story. It happened nineteen years ago. The details are as I remember them. Jim makes a good point about 'brings/rings' sounding forced, I worried about that too. Still, she did wear nose rings; and given the school we were both attending at the time, that was a big deal. No jewelry was allowed, but Indians were allowed to wear nose rings. Are you trying to read too much into it? The questions you asked above can be put to anything. Why does John Galt have green eyes? Why are there so many blue eyed people in 'Shrugged'? Why the train scene? Why is Taggart given a loan at Galt's Gulch? Why do we not enter Hank Rearden's mind when Taggart goes for Galt? Did he not feel any jealousy? What worries me here, and I admit it may be my turn to read too much into what you've written is that you seem desperate to be told what the story is. Yet, time after time, we tell people here to show what is happening. I put a list of memories on board, not to give you every little detail, not to explain the woman or my relationship to this woman or peg her as victim/perpetrator/partner (She was, in a sense, all these things), but to show that partial memories often trigger a reassessment of action and, what's more, I tell you that: quote: Now, maybe my mistake confused you and that's something I have to be more careful about, maybe the intended misdirection of the first few lines (Was it a rape? Was it mutual? What exactly is the relationship?) left you out in the cold (And yet one wonders how you got passed the first sentence of 'Shrugged'?), but that was left ambiguous because, well, relationships are ambiguous. The list of memories must be incomplete because an exhaustive recollection would have changed the outcome of the 'reasoning'. Yes, I'm playing with reason here. Again, I'm just guessing, but part of me wonders if you're not really comfortable with unreliable narrators or speakers. You want to trust them, they must be neutral, they must tell you what's happening in some way that makes the action clear. I don't know, but if so, that would explain a lot of things. But in the end, I don't know. I don't really see the point you're trying to get at. quote: And now, if you've gotten this far, you don't think 'a snake' might be the least bit relevant to the theme here? |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Yeesh! What does any of the above have to do with the poem? It's clear, painful, ugly, and powerful. The mantra: Poetry moves people. Torque John Galt and the horse he wrote in on. And the academics. Jimbeaux |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
But in the end, I don't know. I don't really see the point you're trying to get at. what you've written is that you seem desperate to be told what the story is. There you have it, Brad. Guilty as charged. I would like to know what the story was. That may seem immaterial to some but it's one of those little things that I find to have merit. Guess that's why I've never been a great fan of modern art. I appreciate your taking the time to answer my questions with questions and perhaps's, , but, since I still don't know the story, I'm still as lost. (My psychiatrist says I'm lousy at ink blots, too  )I have issues with the way you indicated stressed syllables in some of the sentences but no doubt that is just a difference in reading styles and, with the benefit of doubt going to the writer, I defer from discussing them. I appreciate your time in answering, Brad...seriously  Jimbeaux, I agree. Them academics are a real pain, ain't they? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: Yeah, I do too. I was trying to get it to match line for line and must have spent an hour on it, and it still didn't work. At any rate, I think there's plenty of room for discussion there. One of the things I'm trying to break is the idea that 'perfect' iambic pentameter is the best way to go. It's not. There are many acceptable substitutions that work just fine within the matrix of iambic pentameter and writers have been using them since Chaucer. As far as the number scheme below goes, that's open to a lot of interpretation as well (and to be honest, I kind of did that spontaneously anyway). By the way, I would probably read, "You are a brave and courageous man" (Okay, I can't remember the line) with a slightly stressed 'are'. This has nothing to do with poetry, it's just what I hear on the telly. If that stress is dropped, then the 'are' is contracted to you're. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
One of the things I'm trying to break is the idea that 'perfect' iambic pentameter is the best way to go. It's not. I agree wholeheartedly. Perfect iambic can be a little boring, to say the least. The great writers of the past were able to deviate from it and still make it sound iambic - speaking of rhymed poetry here but I assume free verse is the same. That is one of the reasons why I have viewed scancions as being limited. for example.... Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore If I were to scan this, it would be like this... Over MAny a CURiOUS and QUAINT VOLumes of forGOTten LORE - - / - - / - / - / / - - - / - / Not much iambic there and yet I heard Vincent Price recite it and made it sound perfectly iambic. like this.. over MAny a CURious and QUAINT volUMES of for GOTten LORE - / - / - / - / - / - / The writer has the power to cause the piece to be read in certain ways. By the way, I would probably read, "You are a brave and courageous man" (Okay, I can't remember the line) with a slightly stressed 'are'..How you would read it, Brad, should depend on how the writer wants you to read it by preceeding lines used. What kind of man are you? You are a BRAVE and COURAGEOUS man. Who is brave and courageous? YOU are a brave and courageous man. Even if they say you are not, you ARE a brave and courageous man. There are many brave and courageous women but you are a brave and courageous MAN. It;'s all up to the writer to cause you to put the accents in the right place. End of Sunday morning ramble. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
TM: quote: Have you ever wondered why a music artist inserted flat or sharp notes into a song written in the key of C rather than writing the song in a pure C major key? Even Mozart did this (see, for example, the "Concerto for Flute & Harp"). I think the answer is that, in this case, the artist felt the song's sound was enhanced by using F-sharps in lieu of F-naturals. This might not be the best analogy (although it is the best analogy I can come up with early on a Sunday morning). I'm not suggesting that meter is analogous to pitch ... my point is that straying from a strict constructionist's idea of convention can be a good thing for a poem, as it can be a good thing in music. No offense intended Brad, but if this sonnet was a song and I heard it on the radio, I doubt I would be rushing out to FYE to buy the CD (in other words, I liked it but not THAT much). My gut reaction is more along the lines of, "that was a really cool line." What I would take from this poem is the general principal that subtle changes in a poem's meter can work together with other poetic elements to enhance the overall result. Or they can stick out like a sour notes. To my ear, most of Brad's substitutions work for me. Others like the following (using Brad's four point scale) sound this way to me:2 1 3 4 2 ... running hose, nose rings Not sure I've done that right, but at any rate, my ear didn't like the effect the way it liked the initial meter of L1. Believe it or not, understanding this has some real life, practical applications that transcend poetry. Changes in meter have an effect on the listener. Listen closely to speeches delivered by an accomplished orator (Martin Luther King, Jr., for example) and you will begin to see some of the connections between poetry and rhetoric. The main difference lies only in the manner in which the words are intended to move the listener. Jim |
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LadyTom Member
since 2008-02-29
Posts 353LA, CA |
Thank you very much Jim for the lecture. Do you think, or sir Brad too, if 4 people read this poem, they might come out four different stress pattern. I shall assume that there shall not be a absolute standard stress to read this one. (pure iambic shall not have this problems though boring if you say so) Thank you again , Jim. Wish you a wonderful Sunday. |
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hunnie_girl
since 2006-06-18
Posts 2567Canada |
mmmm for lack of time I have not been coming here... I haven't read anything from CA for.... ever haha I'm glad I came back to read this one... I really loved it. other than that I don not know what else to say.. being really pressed for time lately i seem to rush by things... i will check up on one of your poems when I have more time and actually give you something to thing about... or rather.. give me something to think about possibly?? Great poem though.  Krysti |
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RCat Member
since 2008-02-16
Posts 70 |
My brain goes soft on the scansion stuff. However, I would say the excessive doubling became too much. I’d reduce that to one or maybe two places for effect and reword the others. I also thought the opening of the piece could have been quoted, as such; “…a school sex scandal was suppressed that year.” IMO “facile” followed by “age” seems like Vaseline. Not sure why… Last, the final couplet really doesn’t have the strength to stand out from the pack as it will. I think you need something stronger there. Thanks for the read. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Hunniegirl, Thanks for reading. I laughed when you talked about time problems. I sometimes feel I have to say something like that everytime I post something. Sorry, no time. Sorry. Sorry. We all have the same problem. Jim, I don't know. Your scan would mean that you read it as one word ― like 'earring'. There are two words. I hear a difference between 'earring' and 'ear ring' ― similar to the difference between 'university' and 'universe city'. Still, if everybody's reading it as you are, then I would definitely have to rework the line.RCAT, I had very similar concerns. You're making a lot of sense to me. See my note about 'facile' below. Mike, Yes, you are quite correct. My only point is that when I hear people talk, I just don't hear three unstressed syllables in a row . It's possible, I think it's possible to have four unstressed syllables sequentially, but it's not common. When someone reads poetry, they don't add stress, it's already there in the language. TM: Yes, four people will read it four different ways. The same person will read it differently at different times. The six rules for scanning a poem are the following (from Lewis Turco): 1. In every word of the English language of two or more syllables, at least one syllable will take a stress. If one cannot at first hear the stressing, then one may consult a pronouncing dictionary. 2. Important single-syllable words, particularly verbs and nouns, generally take strong stresses. 3. Unimportant single-syllable words in the sentence, such as articles, prepositions, and pronouns (except demonstrative pronouns) do not take strong stresses, though they may take secondary stresses through promotion or demotion, depending on their position in the sentence or the line of verse. 4. In any series of three unstressed syllables in a line of verse, one of them, generally the middle syllable, will take a secondary stress through promotion and will be counted as a stressed syllable. 5. In any series of three stressed syllables in a line of verse, one of them, generally the middle syllable, will take a secondary stress through demotion and will be counted as an unstressed syllable. 6. Any syllable may be rhetorically stressed by means of italics or some other typographical play. Here we go again: 1 a SCHOOL | sex SCAN |dal WAS | supPRESSED | that YEAR; 2 that's WHAT | it SEEMED,| but WHAT |re-MEM |brance BRINGS: 3 your AC | cent AND | perFUME,| your VIO |lent LEER, 4 masCA |ra RUN |ning, RUN |ning HOSE,| nose RINGS 5 and BLOOD | and THAT | not QUITE | qui-ES |cent RAGE 6 MAKE me | reTHINK | and REA | son THROUGH | our YOUTH. 7 i DO | not BLAME | it NOW | on FA | cile 'AGE' 8 or THE | exPUL | sion THREAT | or THREAT | of TRUTH 9 beCOM | ing PUB |lic. THEY | did NOT | say RIGHT 10 was WRONG |and WRONG |was RIGHT.| it WAS | not YOU 11 who LET | our ONE | night STAND | ONly | one NIGHT. 12 i REA | soned REA |son AND | through REA |son TOO 13 KNOW that | the WORLD | is DARK |er FOR |that DAY, 14 for I | did NOT | let FEEL |ing RULE |my WAY. This is not the same reading as I gave above: Three points: A. L 7: The dictionary tells me that 'facile' is FAcile. I don't read it like that. B. L 12 has 'and' promoted. I don't promote it, I read it as ―son and/THROUGH REA― C. Mike has an excellent example of contrastive stressing above. The pronouns in L9 'They', L 10 'You' and L 14 'I' can all be seen as an example of that. They are also in the right position to take a stress. Once you see that, the rest should fall into place. Challenge: Show me a complete poem in pure iambic and I'll show you how to read it a different way. If it can't be done, if it really is 'perfect' and impossible to read any other way, I want to see it anyway. I've never seen one. And now I'm out of time. |
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LadyTom Member
since 2008-02-29
Posts 353LA, CA |
Here you go, Sir Brad A sky of blue is full of stars That twinkle, winkle, take your heart Of love, of hope, of sweetened dreams Connected fantasy of art. A sky of black is full of tears that knock and hit the sorrow fears of spirit, of thought, of painful views and wash away the wanton hues A sky of gray is omen bad A crazy shadow laments mad in thunder tagging cuspate light to man, to woman, amply sad A rosy sky is passion's sigh To read, to write in perfect rhyme Of shorts, of suit, a matching tie Pretends a nice iambic life [This message has been edited by LadyTom (03-04-2008 03:02 PM).] |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
Brad, thank you for the 6 rules. I wanted to ask about what rule 3 explains ; but I didn’t have the onions. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
'fantasy of art'? FANtasy of ART FANtaSY of ART FANtasy OF art --eh, probably not number three. |
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LadyTom Member
since 2008-02-29
Posts 353LA, CA |
Sir Brad, I change fantasy to paradise |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Just recite Amazing Grace, Brad, and you have it. As far as your examples above, I read several lines completely different than you. 1 a SCHOOL | sex SCAN |dal WAS | supPRESSED | that YEAR; I cannot imagine that line being read without the accent being on SEX, nor can I imagine WAS being accented. WAS is almost NEVER accented. I would read this line as.. a SCHOOL SEX SCANDal was suPRESSED that YEAR. 2 that's WHAT | it SEEMED,| but WHAT |re-MEM |brance BRINGS: The first WHAT is accented? I can picture "THAT'S what it SEEMED" as being much more realistic. 5 and BLOOD | and THAT | not QUITE | qui-ES |cent RAGE THAT carries no accent. "and BLOOD and that NOT QUITE qui-EScent RAGE" 7 i DO | not BLAME | it NOW | on FA | cile 'AGE' There is normally never an accent on DO when coupled with NOT. The point you are making in thsi line is that you don't blame it now...the accent would be on NOT, not DO. "I do NOT BLAME it NOW..." 10 was WRONG |and WRONG |was RIGHT.| it WAS not YOU No accent on WAS..."it was NOT YOU" You may simply say that I read it differently than you and I'll agree and it's put to bed there but that is the way I read it and would recite it. My only point is that when I hear people talk, I just don't hear three unstressed syllables in a row . Really!? When people talk, three and four unstressed syllables are very common, much more so than in the written word. When you go home and ask your wife how she is feeling, do you say "HOW are YOU FEELing? or how are YOU FEELing? or simply "how are you FEELing?" Any way except for the last would have you sounding like Edith Bunker. "What are you DOING?", "how is it GOing?" "where is my TIE?", etc etc. When people speak they only put accents on words that really deserve them otherwise they would be singing to each other, not talking. I repeat that accents depend on what the sentence refers to and how it has been set up, which is the author's or speaker's job. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Amazing Grace: quote: --John Newton, 1779 |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Amazing grace, how sweet the sound That sav’d a wretch like me! I once was lost, but now am found, Was blind, but now I see. ’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear, And grace my fears reliev’d; How precious did that grace appear, The hour I first believ’d! Thro’ many dangers, toils and snares, I have already come; ’Tis grace has brought me safe thus far, And grace will lead me home. The Lord has promis’d good to me, His word my hope secures; He will my shield and portion be, As long as life endures. Yes, when this flesh and heart shall fail, And mortal life shall cease; I shall possess, within the veil, A life of joy and peace. The earth shall soon dissolve like snow, The sun forbear to shine; But God, who call’d me here below, Will be forever mine. John Newton, Olney Hymns (London: W. Oliver, 1779) |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Sorry, Some of you shoud get the first run. Some of you should get the second run. I hope. "Amazing Grace" was used as an example of perfect or pure iambic. It is not. Sorry, Mike. Sorry, everyone. |
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LadyTom Member
since 2008-02-29
Posts 353LA, CA |
Amazing grace, how sweet the sound That sav’d a wretch like me! I once was lost, but now am found, Was blind, but now I see. to me, everything here seemed stressed. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
I don't know Brad. The only line I can see that might even be questioned is S3L2. But even that falls into place perfectly when read or spoken in context. Please enlighten as to where you find discrepancies. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Sorry, Brad. I saw nothing there to change my mind.....did you want to comment on the rest of my entry? LadyTom....if you pronounce "amazing" with three stressed syllables, I would love to hear you talk!!! |
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LadyTom Member
since 2008-02-29
Posts 353LA, CA |
My dear sir Balladeer, sing it out the traditional way, you will know. And I would love to hear how you sing it [This message has been edited by LadyTom (03-04-2008 07:57 PM).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
"All poetry is a reproduction of the tones of actual speech." --Robert Frost Man, I really am starting to feel like a nitpicky [deleted]. "Amazing Grace" sounds fine to you, Mike, to you, Pete, and to me because we accept the conventions of poetry two hundred years ago. It is not pure iambic and that was the whole point. We accept elision, inversion, and demotion/promotion as 'natural'. The simple fact is that the overwhelming amount of iambic poetry in English depends on these conventions for it to work. And they still sound good. Tom, Start from the syllable count. Once you get that right, read 'Amazing Grace' slowly, do not sing it, and place conscious stress on the even numbered syllables. That's what it is supposed to sound like. Mike (again): Let's start with where we agree. quote: That sounds reasonable to me. I can see on L7 as well. More correctly, I can hear that. It is one possible reading. Of course, by doing that you're ignoring the fact that is has a sonnet form. quote: Again, certainly possible. quote: You do read it differently. And to be honest, I'm not going to quibble with you over most of it. My guess is that you don't or won't let yourself use the form to determine the reading. That's a little strange given that form is just as much a reference as anything else. I was watching Seinfeld, yesterday, and I think I heard one full iambic pentameter (I remember going, Wow!). You just don't here them in everyday speech or read them in newspapers or magazines. Yet, you let 'everyday speech' speech determine your reading? quote: Let's see: "How are you feeling?" It's not a phrase I would normally use, but what I hear, usually, is something like "HOW ya FEELen?" Now, that particular stress stucture seems very common in everyday speech. YES, there IS. NO, there ISn't YES, i AM. WHAT'cha DOin? HOW's it GOin? WHADja DO, toDAY? And so on and so forth. By that, I do not mean that 'how' and 'feel' have the same stress (Yes, that would sound strange.) nor do I mean any of the other examples to be matched. What I mean is that both are stressed in relation to the middle syllable. Now, of course, given certain conditions, you will also hear: YES, I am NO, THERE isn't and that's your contrastive stress, but here's something you don't hear: "Yes, I'm" "Yes, there's" That just doesn't sound right, does it? It sounds like something is unfinished. That's because we want to hear an ending stress there. You can't argue meaning because people do say, "Yes, there is" and "Yes, I am." Does that make any sense? As usual I'm rushed for time but if you have some patience, I'll try to answer whatever questions you may have here. Unfortunately, I only had time to deal with your problem with 'was' (In my defense, 'was' should be promoted slightly, it should not nor do I read 'was' at the same stress level as 'school' or 'scan' or even as 'sex' (stress is a relational concept, not an absolute one). Milton: quote: Shakespeare, sonnet 35 quote: Frost, The Oven Bird: quote: And, of course, 'was' is simply the past tense form of 'be', one wonders how you read Amazing Grace the way you do? |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
One wonders, Brad? or YOU wonder? Well, you have taken "How are you feeling" and changed it to "How ya feelin?" to make the comparison. That can work with my golf buddy or anywhere in the deep South, but if I were to ask my boss HOW ya FEELin?...he would be double-checking my educational level. Your quote from Milton is also an unrealistic comparison. The form of the poem DOES help dictate where accents fall but only if the form is done correctly and the reader's mind gets caught up in the proper flow. As I've said before, that is the author's responsibility. |
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LadyTom Member
since 2008-02-29
Posts 353LA, CA |
quote: Sir Brad, I read by the rules and it sounded very mechanical. or it is juts my own local problem. |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
“ Is it juts my own local problem “ Tom, all problems are local .I think amazing grace sounds mechanical too. That is why it is so moving when played on the bag pipes. How many hymns could you play on the bag pipes that would sound so right ? This is another great learning thread. I will try to come back to this and write more later . [This message has been edited by chopsticks (03-05-2008 07:01 AM).] |
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LadyTom Member
since 2008-02-29
Posts 353LA, CA |
Chops, who is the lovely bag pipes here? Sir Balladeer or sir Brad? The later wrote a Sonnet and wanted it free styled He made us to guess where he has done the modify Those Academics, sir B, you are right Pain in the neck!!!! And I am still reading the Mindelays. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Well, this seems to have run its course. As it should be. Two quick points then: I would probably say, "HOW are you FEELing, toDAY?". The major stress goes on 'feel'(of course), but it's also possible to say, "how ARE you FEELing, toDAY?" with no awkwardness as far as I can hear -- unless you're placing undue stress on any of those words. My problem with, "how are you FEELing, toDAY" is it sounds bottom heavy, the tempo picks up to get to 'feel' or you're using contrastive stress (You saw your boss after drinking a bottle of Cuervo last night.), but three unstressed syllables are possible here. For the record, Here's a line with four unstressed syllables: "Jupiter's an enormous planet" or something like that. You talk about one rule for stressing words; there are three (though I would argue four). Why is it that with any single disyllabic word, in theory, always has a stress on one or the other syllables, but not with monosyllabic pairs or triple word combinations? As far as I can tell, the stress doesn't disappear, it is just variable. Tom, It is mechanical. Pure iambic is mechanical. That's the point. In terms of scanning, those rules work amazingly well. And from that, amazing variety results. PS (My newly posted poem isn't about you, but it is for you. ) And I forgot to thank everyone (Especially Mike and Tim) for their time and effort here. I am listening and trying to understand the issues. My two points can be summed up as follows: 1. Rules are abstractions that CAN and sometimes should be 'broken'. 2. Rules come from the ultimate arbiter, not everyday speech, not abstract theories, but the poetry that came before us AND the conventions we have today. Which does not mean that you have to or should like any particular poem. That's another whole nut to crack. [This message has been edited by Brad (03-06-2008 05:56 PM).] |
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