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Critical Analysis #2
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serenity blaze
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since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738


0 posted 2008-01-17 06:17 PM


"I was starved," she said in sate.
I smiled in knowing memory
knowing she would belt a "blat"
as she rubbed her taut belly
laughing as she did.

I was ravenous

She grinned.
I tilted my wine glass to her.
The moment nearly did me in
as she licked her lips and sinned,
winking back at me.

* * *

I tried to keep this one simple--I chopped the hell out of it actually and pared it down to this. Feast out, guys and gals, and tell me what's wrong with it. (I hate the title m'self.) But anyhow--here y'go--dinner's on me!


© Copyright 2008 serenity blaze - All Rights Reserved
TomMark
Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133
LA,CA
1 posted 2008-01-17 09:57 PM


dear SB, you in general do not write as clear as this one. The one "season in this rain" now you posted in open, i still don't get the whole  meaning. But that is your style.

I like it.

TM

poddarku
Senior Member
since 2008-01-15
Posts 589
india
2 posted 2008-01-19 01:16 AM


i wold have liked to read the chopped parts. this poem is a work of art-perfect to the last of the piece of the jig saw puzzle.


Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
3 posted 2008-01-20 05:10 PM


I love stuff like this.


Here are a few nitpicks for your consideration:

quote:
"I was starved," she said in sate.
as she rubbed her taut belly
laughing.

Knowing she would belt a "blat,"
I was ravenous

She grinned.
I tilted my wine glass to her.
The moment nearly did me in
as she licked her lips,
winking back at me.


serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

4 posted 2008-01-21 11:08 PM


Brad?

I'd consider it, but?

Y'gotta tell me why...


hush
Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653
Ohio, USA
5 posted 2008-01-22 05:53 AM


I like it how it is. I think Brad's version is a little too stark. I think this is clever, giving us enough to be ... sated but leaving enough of an appetite that we're still thinking about it.


jbouder
Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash
6 posted 2008-01-22 04:42 PM


Karen:

Sometimes your work is hard to critique.  You've done such a nice job capturing ... what ... a 3-second exchange in a short poem that did the experience justice.  Not an easy task.  You made it look easy.

A few critical comments.  I noticed that Brad cut "and sinned" from his edit.  Comparing the two versions (your offering above and Brad's), I do like your version better but I'm finding "and sinned" a little distracting.  I'm thinking there is more to the joke I'm not getting.  I also like the "I was ravenous" line set apart from the others.  

I dunno.  Amy seemed to have no trouble with it.  There is always the possibility I am overthinking it.

Thanks for posting, Karen.  Nice work.

Jim


chopsticks
Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888
The US,
7 posted 2008-01-22 05:47 PM


Blaze, the score is 3 to 2   on understanding the sinned thing. I know it’s something  the 3 of us are not getting  that I think we may be just over thinking it like Jim said.

The only thing I can come up with that makes any sense to me is gluttony one of the seven deadly sins.

She licks her lips and pigs out , please tell me I am wrong so I can take the poem back to the table and have a further go at it .

serenity blaze
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since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

8 posted 2008-01-22 06:55 PM


Hmmm.

so a single intendre would have done?

*laughing here*

Just a nod to my (well-known?) appreciation of women. Um, was that the part you were over-thinking, Jim?

Okay. She doesn't have to sin.

I just preferred it that way.

Thanks for the input guys. Oh. No pun intended! *grin*

Grinch
Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929
Whoville
9 posted 2008-01-22 07:11 PM



You don’t like the title? How about:

Sade in Sate

Sade is how a Marquis would pronounce said -it adds a little something, don’t you think?


jbouder
Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash
10 posted 2008-01-22 07:20 PM


Mr. Grinch, that's an absolutely brilliant suggestion.  Karen, this would have cleared it up for me in ... like ... 2.7 seconds.

Knowing the intent, I think it should stay.  I just think it needs an anchor in the poem.  What better place than in the title?

Jim

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

11 posted 2008-01-22 07:40 PM


Um...no.

I think that would have put a heavier tone to what I had hoped to convey as a lighter tone of exchange. (Mind you, I said appreciation, not preference.)



and *chuckling*

I am an admirer of forms of all sorts.


icequeen
Senior Member
since 2001-12-09
Posts 633
FL USA
12 posted 2008-01-24 01:02 AM


I like it just the way you wrote it. I immediately got my grin back when I read it. Its your work, all right.

The main thing I like about it? That there are so many different interpretations that could be made. Especially the "...and sinned" line. Opens up a lot more to discussion, does it not?

Its perfect. Put your meat cleaver away Blazey - your sculpture is complete


Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
13 posted 2008-01-24 03:59 PM


I hesitated to give my reasoning here, but there are reasons to consider:

quote:
"I was starved," she said in sate.
I smiled in knowing memory


I can't figure out what this adds to the piece. The poem already has put you in a position of 'knowledge'. That you know what's going to happen, that you smile because you remember a similar situation (the misdirection is the charm here) seems irrelevant. You're telling that you know. So?

quote:
as she rubbed her taut belly
laughing as she did.


By dropping those two lines, the image by itself stands alone.

quote:
knowing she would belt a "blat"
I was ravenous


It's tempting to then leave out the 'blat' line altogether, but I liked 'blat' and I like what it does. It may not be in the best position here (the connotations of pregnancy and 'ravenous'/jealousy may be too close), but that juxtaposition is too good to be ignored.

quote:
She grinned.
I tilted my wine glass to her.
The moment nearly did me in
as she licked her lips,
winking back at me.


Again, what exactly does 'sin' add here? On the one hand it looks like an attempt to semi-rhyme with 'in' -- that makes the poem look rushed. On the other, you've already foreshadowed what's going to happen with 'blat', you've shown the feeling with 'licked her lips', and the connection between the two characters with 'winking'.

Anything else, IMHO, is overkill or as you might have heard me say, banging the reader over the head with the idea. But, honestly, that's not even the idea, the strength of the poem is the connection between the two characters. I would focus on that.

serenity blaze
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since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

14 posted 2008-01-24 05:27 PM


The "sin" is there to convey possible judgement by an audience.

And as long as judgement regarding same sex attraction is around, that stays.

I was trying to convey more subtlety, the idea of two women who, at first glance had shared a gourmet meal. I agree it's very subtle, and easy to miss, but the one who was sated had perhaps had a first-time um, dining experience. The other had simply enjoyed her enjoyment, recalling her own first taste of finer dining. So no, it's not irrelevant.

"as she rubbed her taut belly
laughing as she did."

Maybe blushing would be better than laughter--what I was aiming for with that line was to utilize the surprise of someone who had eaten more heartily, with more enjoyment, than they had expected. (Haven't you ever sat down to a meal shruggishly, and then surprised yourself when you enjoyed it so much that you had eaten to the point of gluttony?)

"I was ravenous"

That's in italics and isolated from the rest of the poem for emphasis, in an attempt to bring my metaphor from um, third base to home. As a cook, for example, I very seldom sit down to eat the meal I spent hours preparing. (After taste-testing during prep, cooks are seldom still hungry by dinner time, and my enjoyment of a dinner comes from watching others enjoy.) So sewing those two lines together would ruin the inner dialogue of that idea.

She grinned. (satisfaction)
I tilted my wine glass to her. (Both a literal toast, and a metaphorical invitation for her to drink from "my" glass.)

Now I'm tip-toeing here, because I know the rules of this forum. So the "sin" stays. (I'll consider removing it when gay marriage is recognized as a legitimate union, but keep in mind I left the politics out of the poem.)

As I said earlier, I chopped a lot out of the poem, experimenting with metaphor as a means of light erotica, using one of my favorite writers of erotica at Pip as an example. (That would be Poet DeVine--as she has written tasteful erotica hundreds of times, if not thousands, without resorting to coarse language or blatant visuals.)

So yep, it's erotica, and I hope it's thoughtful and well-written erotica. Each word was carefully chosen and placed to convey a moment of innocent attraction and impulse of action, and to present that tastefully. (no pun intended)

I brought it here because I was second-guessing myself on much of it. It was an experiment with myself to see if I have been overwriting my own concepts to make sure I was understood. I think I probably have been, since this was chopped down from like, six stanzas to what you see here.

I think I'll even keep the "laughing" part, instead of blushing, because blushing might unintentionally convey shame, which was not what I intended--happy surprise, yes, but no shame.

So special thanks to PdV, for being a fine example of what erotica should be, and to all of you who have read and commented with an open mind.

Grinch
Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929
Whoville
15 posted 2008-01-24 06:05 PM


I understand why you feel Sade is too much, after all sadism was named after him and your poem is a mile away from that. I just liked the fact that Sade is also a girls name as well as a reference to eroticism.

At the risk of registering two failures in a row how about this.

Would you consider removing ‘her’ from L10? Or what about:

as licking lips she sinned

The good news is that's the closest thing to a possible change I can offer - I really, really liked this SB.


serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

16 posted 2008-01-24 06:08 PM


*laughing*

Oh Grinchie--if it would make it better for you, I will, but not in this forum.


chopsticks
Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888
The US,
17 posted 2008-01-24 07:27 PM


“ So yep, it's erotica, and I hope it's thoughtful and well-written erotica. “

Blaze, that is a done deal, it is well written. I would never have guessed it was about a gay

couple.

I actually kind of feel good about that.
  


Grinch
Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929
Whoville
18 posted 2008-01-27 06:50 PM


quote:
but not in this forum


I think you’d get away with it, it’s not blatantly sexual, just more blatant than your original and if you’re shooting for double entendre SB you’d get more bangs for your bucks if you did it my way.

(See, now you’ve got me at it)



I still like the poem as is though.


serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

19 posted 2008-01-27 07:02 PM




I just backspaced a whole lotta stuff here Grinchie.

See, Brad, huh?

I'm bein' gooooooooood.


Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
20 posted 2008-01-30 04:58 PM


You're always good.

quote:
The "sin" is there to convey possible judgement by an audience.

And as long as judgement regarding same sex attraction is around, that stays


But we're all good old-fashioned vulgar Freudians, today. The erotica is already clear or should be. What you haven't done yet is addressed my structural concerns:

quote:
The moment nearly did me in
as she licked her lips and sinned,


It is also this in/sinned rhyme that bothers me. I don't see the need for it and I think it distracts from the much more evocative 'licked her lips'.

You have a point on separating "I was ravenous," but I don't see the need in clarifying the underlying ambiguity. That captures more than mere erotica.

Interestingly enough, there was an apropos (?) article in  Atlantic or Harper's (I forget which one). This article mentioned a specific gay couple that really did substitute food for sex. The idea was not to criticize them but to argue that sex is not everything, that satisfaction and contentment come from other pleasures in life.

Your poem points to the same thing. I see no reason to narrow your scope with 'sinned'. But it doesn't do that anyway. There are seven deadly sins and you're already going after two here.

Laughed is fine, but so is blushed. The very idea of shame is integral to what you're going after here. It's part of the enticement, is it not? Shame is a part of gay life (as it is with anything alternative), it is a constant plague perhaps, perhaps it shouldn't be there, but it is there.

Do you really want that to disappear for didactic reasons?


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