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Passions in Poetry

To End War - A Sonnet

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chopsticks
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25 posted 01-10-2008 08:00 PM       View Profile for chopsticks   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for chopsticks

Balladeer, you were writing about  seven different concepts five of them worship a god . The way I just used god it  did not need to be capitalized..

Here is the way the rule goes :

If you are referring to a specific god -concept , as you were when you used the pronoun  theirs meaning in that case ( that which belongs to them ) you should have capitalized god.

Did you notice that I did not capitalize god in this reply. There was absolutely no reason to capitalize  god in any of my sentences.

If we were talking about a comma, I would have submitted passively by now.

“To all who claim theirs is a god of peace”

Ballandeer I just had an epiphany. I am one of the all in the above , so it would be appropriate for you to capitalize my God.


Balladeer
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26 posted 01-10-2008 10:37 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LOL! No, if YOU  wrote it then it would be appropriate for you to capitalize it.

Take two aspirin for that epiphany, and get plenty of rest
jbouder
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27 posted 01-11-2008 08:30 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Mike:

I don't have a problem with the near-rhyme, I think you've probably nailed the technical aspects of writing a sonnet, but I just don't understand why you picked this form for this topic?  In fourteen lines, you scarcely have room to set up your polemic, let alone present it in full.  Because of this, one question can unravel the entire point you're trying to make (e.g., Aren't wars today fought over land and oil?).

If you wish to stick to a sonnet form, I'd strongly recommend that you break your argument down into sub-parts and group several sonnets together.

Jim
rwood
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28 posted 01-11-2008 09:45 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

alas, the gods of war and poetry are insatiable in their appetites for blood and rhyme.

so the nature of your rhyme is fitting

chopsticks
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29 posted 01-11-2008 09:50 AM       View Profile for chopsticks   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for chopsticks

Ballander, here’s my last try at conversion :

You can say that Christian are supposed to follow what THEIR god wants them to do, or you can say that Christian are supposed to follow what THEIR God wants them to do. Either works, but you should capitalize God in the latter sentence because you are using it as a proper name, just as if you were talking about Apollo, Mercury, or Odin.

I do believe you used “THEIR” in your couplet.

Like I said if this had been about a comma, I would have ....
Bob K
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30 posted 01-11-2008 11:04 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

Hello Balladeer and Friends,

                               Ouch!  "Far" and "war" were at one point pronounced the same way, and may still be not only in Scotland and in Northern England but in selected sectors of English society and in areas of the United States.  English is sensitive to regional variation, yes, but also to class variation.  "Creek" can be pronounced to rhyme with "beak" but it is also pronounced in selected areas of the US as a rhyme with "stick."  It certainly was in the area of Ohio where I grew up, but ONLY among working class folks.  In parts of  western New York, you"ll hear the "crick" variation in members of the middle class, but only those born before 1950 or so.  The whose thing is more complex than you're trying to make it, and the authorities you're turning to don't allow for these variations.  "Were" and "here" or "Here" and "there" are traditionally allowed as rhymes as well.  Simply because two words don't sound like they rhyme now to your ear doesn't mean that that is the case universally to all other English speakers, even today.

     Even proper names show this variation, as in the Island country of Jamaica.  Most commonly in the United States, Jamaica is pronounced Ja MAY ka, while the way it's pronounced by the islanders is Ja MAY a ka, four syllables instead of three.

     "War" and "far" are generally accepted as rhymes, and not simply as part of a computer generated list of words ending with "ar."  Not all English pronounciation came from London.  A fair number of folk who came over to the US on the Mayflower were from places where the vowel use was broader.

     It wasn't clear to me if the urge for punctuation in the middle of the first line was within the phrase "to Christians near and far" or between "I'd like to say" and "to Christians near and far."  The texts seem to read pretty much "between 'Christians near and far;'" and for actual understanding I'd have to know between "Christians near and far" and what other thing?

     If however it's between "I'd like to say" and "to Christians near and far," I suspect your urge to drop in a piece of punctuation is because you hear the medial cesura, metrically generally noted this way //.  It's especially emphasized here because, at least in part, the order of the idiom 'far and near" has been inverted to force the rhyme we've just been talking about; and it makes the line a just a bit too heavy handed at the end.

     One of the tricks in revision that helpful on occasion is to notice where the discussion is stuck, in this case on the issue of the rhyme "far" and "War,"  and then to look a bit beforehand for the actual problem.  If that can be solved, sometimes the later issue doesn't seem to be such an issue any more.

     If you're as wacky as I am and you tend to rework poems for a long time before you show them to anybody, the equivalent is to notice where you've focused the majority of your revision efforts.  Often it means you know you need to take that piece out and look at the rest to see what you have and how those pieces fit together once you've taken out the piece you know simply doesn't work.

     Balladeer is pretty good darn good at forms and I suspect probably doesn't need to mess with this one.  It seems to say what he wants and do what he wants and he's pleased with what he's got, quite rightfully so.  But the poem is giving him these little messages in case he wants to do more with it.  It has its own ambitions for itself, you see, as poems almost always do.  There's a wonderful poem by Larry Levis, I think it's the first poem in his first book, in which the poet takes care of a poor little lost poem and in the end the poem beats him up, steals his clothes and his money and starts to head over to move in on the reader.  Poems can do that sometimes.
Best to everybody, BobK.    

    
Balladeer
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31 posted 01-11-2008 04:40 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

"Aren't wars today fought over land and oil?"

Beats me, Jim. Did Osama knock down  the wtc because he wanted our land and oil? Has England fought the Irish over their land or oil? Is the genocide in African countries over land and oil? Wars are fought for a variety of reasons.

No, I didn't make any conclusive point in 14 lines. I wasn't really trying to. I don't see where sonnets should ever be used to present or confirm specific points fully. They are simply too short.  I was simply expressing an opinion, in which case a sonnet is as acceptable as any other form. It was short, precise and to the point, I think. No one should have been confused about the author's feelings while writing it.

The far and war point astounds me. Yes, I know speech is regional and I grew up fishing in cricks, too, and had a knockdown dragout with Nan over if "field" contains one syllable or two. I must say, however, that I have lived in the north (Delaware), the south (Texas and Florida),  grew up in the midwest(Missouri) and nowhere I have lived does far and war not rhyme. Even for those of you who do not see a rhyme there, the near-rhyme should be so close it is a non-point. Just my opinion....

Chopsitcks...in this case I think we will just have to agree to disagree

Bob, I'm going to have to look up that poem by Larry Levis...sounds like a masterful idea for a poem Actually, Bob, the fact is that I almost never rework a poem. What you see is what came out the first time. I would be a better poet if I did, I know. Posting in CA is good - good to get feedback from others. If the rhyming sound between war and far is the biggest objection then I must be doing something right.
Balladeer
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32 posted 01-11-2008 05:13 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

btw,for those to do no believe that far and war rhymes, can you tell me which of the two rhymes with star? Perhaps that will allow me to see where you are coming from...
Brad
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33 posted 01-11-2008 05:31 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Far/Star

War! What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing!
TomMark
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34 posted 01-11-2008 05:37 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Dear Sir Balladeer, far rhymes with star.
Balladeer
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35 posted 01-11-2008 05:39 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LOl! I'm reminded of the North Carolinian who claimed that the three wise men should be shown wearing firehats because the Bible clearly states that "The three men came from afar..."
Brad
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36 posted 01-11-2008 06:38 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
What you see is what came out the first time. I would be a better poet if I did, I know.


Now that explains a lot.
jbouder
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37 posted 01-11-2008 08:09 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Mike:

I don't dispute that the sonnet presents an opinion.  The form, however, renders it a very weakly expressed opinion thats seems almost inflammatory at times (e.g., do you expect any reader to believe Catholics' and Protestants' "legacy is nothing more than shame").

quote:
Did Osama knock down  the wtc because he wanted our land and oil? Has England fought the Irish over their land or oil? Is the genocide in African countries over land and oil?


Actually, yes.  Islamofascism is imperialistic.  The tension in Northern Ireland has its roots in English colonization of Ulster and the rest of Ireland (Cromwellian Settlement).  African genocides are also about who controls the land.

Religion?  That's just the pretense.

Your poem might be more effective if you either freed it from the sonnet's constraints or focused on one conflict.  As it is written, it simply doesn't do it for me.

Jim
TomMark
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38 posted 01-11-2008 08:24 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

enjoyed the Sonnet.

[This message has been edited by TomMark (01-12-2008 01:27 AM).]

Balladeer
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39 posted 01-12-2008 02:16 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Jim, Osama knocked down the wtc because (1) we are non-believing infidels that must be destroyed and (2) our association with Israel, both religious factors. England's conflict with  Ireland began because Ireland would not switch over to England's religion....Catholics against Protestants...another religious factor. (Trinity by Leon Uris would be good reading)

I'm sorry it doesn't work for you but no writing works for everyone. I appreciate your candor.
chopsticks
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40 posted 01-12-2008 01:14 PM       View Profile for chopsticks   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for chopsticks

"Our association with Israel, both religious factors “

I’m sorry Ballandeer, it is mostly over land. It’s called “ the Gaza strip and the west bank”

They know that we help Israel keep that land.
jbouder
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41 posted 01-12-2008 03:43 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Mike:

One other thing I don't think anyone has mentioned is the thematic turn that appears to be absent in your L9 and following, and which is customarily part of the sonnet form.  In the poems below, I've tried to introduce thematic turns.  Consider this as an example of an expanded, sonnet-like poem:

All Christians, Muslims, Jews, and Hindus too –
It’s time to stop pretenders near and far
Declaring that it must be Me or You.
Together We can end this senseless war.

To Sinn Fein Catholics and the IRA,
To all who maim and murder in God’s name,
It’s time to wash the seeds of hate away.
For, in forgiveness, you will find no shame.

“Holy” Crusader and the Jihadi,
I pray the time of truth is close at hand.
The light reveals your sins for all to see –
Your guilty blood defiles the Holy Land.

Pakistan and India hear our plea:
Decolonize your minds of senseless hate.
Cut the concertina wire before we see
Your countless millions share a fiery fate.

Our faiths may never find accord, but how
Can true believers let their children die
For causes piety should not allow?
Such war no man can rightly justify.

It’s time for this insanity to cease –
All glory to the mighty God of Peace.


And this as a narrowed poem:

To Christians, Muslims, and the pious Jew –
It’s time to stop pretenders near and far
Declaring that it must be Me or You.
Together We can end this senseless war.

“Holy” Crusader and the Jihadi,
I pray the time of truth is close at hand.
The light reveals your sins for all to see –
Your guilty blood defiles the Holy Land.

Our faiths may never find accord, but how
Can true believers let their children die
For causes piety should not allow?
Such war no man can rightly justify.

It’s time for this insanity to cease –
All glory to the mighty God of Peace.


Hope this is helpful in illustrating what I've written previously.

Jim

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42 posted 01-12-2008 05:57 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Hi, Jim..

I appreciate the effort you have put into this and thank you. I'm afraid your first revision doen't work for  me..


All Christians, Muslims, Jews, and Hindus too –
It’s time to stop pretenders near and far
why the word pretenders?
Declaring that it must be Me or You.
if this is supposed tobe a quote of theirs then quotes would make that plainer...declaring that "It must be me or you".
Together We can end this senseless war.
Which war? I speak of war in general

To Sinn Fein Catholics and the IRA,
To all who maim and murder in God’s name,
It’s time to wash the seeds of hate away.
For, in forgiveness, you will find no shame.
they should be forgiving...who?

“Holy” Crusader and the Jihadi,
bad rhythm with holy crusader
I pray the time of truth is close at hand.
The light reveals your sins for all to see –
Your guilty blood defiles the Holy Land.

Pakistan and India hear our plea:
Decolonize your minds of senseless hate.
These countries have minds of senseless hate? Targeting countries is off the mark
Cut the concertina wire before we see
Your countless millions share a fiery fate.
concertina wire? These lines don't make it for me. Feiry fate is too cliche

Our faiths may never find accord, but how
Can true believers let their children die
For causes piety should not allow?
Such war no man can rightly justify.

It’s time for this insanity to cease –
All glory to the mighty God of Peace.

I'm afraid this poem is way too cluttered for me

And this as a narrowed poem:

To Christians, Muslims, and the pious Jew –
why the word pious, unless you are just using it for a proper syllable count? It doesn't  earn it's keep.
It’s time to stop pretenders near and far
Declaring that it must be Me or You.
Together We can end this senseless war.

“Holy” Crusader and the Jihadi,
I pray the time of truth is close at hand.
The light reveals your sins for all to see –
Your guilty blood defiles the Holy Land.

Our faiths may never find accord, but how
Can true believers let their children die
For causes piety should not allow?
Such war no man can rightly justify.

It’s time for this insanity to cease –
All glory to the mighty God of Peace.

Once again,I appreciate your effort but i prefer to let it stand. I've had many people read, respond and listen to this poem and the reaction has been extremely favorable.I would consider minor changes to satisfy a minority but not major revisions.

I do find your comment on thematic turns interesting, though.  I wasn't aware that it was common practice in sonnets but it makes sense and I'm going to study it further. I thank you
Grinch
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43 posted 01-12-2008 06:28 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


I think its ok though I can’t make my mind up whether I like the repeated start to the first two lines, it is more of a ni than a nit though but it wouldn’t take much to change it if you cared to, something like this for instance.


I'd like to say to Christians near and far
And mention to the Jews and Muslims, too
It’s time for all to seek an end to war.
And recognize each other’s point of view.

Ok so I edited line 4 while I was there, the “your” looked like finger pointing to me and I think you were going for an encompassing wave. Again not a big deal but I thought I’d mention it while I was there.


The turn in the final couplet could be fixed if you made the last line a question.

Balladeer
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44 posted 01-12-2008 06:44 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Thanks, Grinch. I made the first two lines repetitive to put all religions on equal footing. I'm not sure that "saying" to some and "mentioning" to others would do that but I'm gonna mull that one over. The change has merit.

'Each other's point of view" or "different points of view" would both work well and be better than "your". Consider it done

fixing the turn in the couplet? Not sure I understand that..
serenity blaze
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45 posted 01-12-2008 06:55 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

smile...

Write a poem To End War, and you shall start another?

*laughing tho*

I'm actually very happy to see this much good, constructive discussion going on in here.

It's ...nice.
Grinch
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46 posted 01-12-2008 07:14 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Mike,

In an English sonnet you can place the thematic ‘turn’ (or Volta) that Jim was talking about in the third quatrain or the final couplet (or leave it out altogether). If you’ve a mind to put one in you simply need to change the final line to a question, in doing so you create the turn from suggesting and saying what you think should happen in the first 3 quatrains to asking if your suggestions are reasonable in the couplet.

Or you could just leave it as it is.


Balladeer
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47 posted 01-12-2008 07:19 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Aha...I wasn't aware that the turn could be placed before the couplet. I thought perhaps it was to be placed after the second stanza, whereas the third stanza turned and the couplet was a compilation of the message of the poem in general.

Thanks for the info...
Grinch
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48 posted 01-12-2008 07:38 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

Mike,

My memory isn’t what it was but here’s my understanding of the form.

The Italian (Petrarchan) sonnet is composed of two parts the octave and the sextet it has the turn at the start of the sextet (L9).

The English (Shakespearean) sonnet has four parts, three quatrains and a final couplet the turn can be on the third quatrain or the final couplet (or sometimes omitted completely).

Shakespeare often used the final couplet as an epigrammatic close which contained the turn.

Grinch
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49 posted 01-12-2008 07:53 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


This might be useful:
http://www.sonnets.org/basicforms.htm

The web is great for those like me
Who being old lack memory.

 
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