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Strip
| Critical Analysis #2 |
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Strip |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
The same thing that you hear. Gambol up the green hill, take your shirt off and spill the milk on the dinner table. Somebody will clean it up, somebody will put the cat out before it's too late. Skip, said the monster man to the clown, be lazy and free, there's no world we can't be seen in, no place that corners you in the rain. But what do they say when they see you the next day, What do they say? What do they say? asked the clown to the Möbius strip. Gambol up the green hill, when they see you the next day, take your shirt off and spill the same thing that you hear. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%B6bius_strip |
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Seeker72 Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 387Oregon USA |
"asked the clown to the Möbius strip." Quality, the symbolism within such a short sentence is utter quality. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I'd love to see the intent of this drawn out in cell format. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
I like this one. It is not as serious as your others and it is fun to read. Is it in any form? Its free style fits the careless tune. "The same thing that you hear." -----This is ending verse of this poem "Gambol up the green hill, take your shirt off and spill the milk on the dinner table. Somebody will clean it up," The green hill means Möbius strip which shall keep the original mathematical meaning ...no beginning and no end. But in this poem, there was something happened like spill the milk. why on dinner table? Milk does not belong there? "Take you shirt off"...youthful or man's behavior....to me means immature.  "Somebody will clean it up" why no rhyme here? The attitude of carelessness. Sir Brad, you turn.  |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Brad: This is a clever poem. I must say that I never expected you to write a poem about the "Dilbert" comic strip. At first, I was incredulous in thinking you would try to pull off something like this, but I can't think of a more reasonable interpretation of "Strip." quote: When I first read this, it read to me a little bit like a rock/rap lyric. "Nice rhythm and sound" was what immediately came to mind. As I'll explain below, the "gambol up the hill" appears to be a metaphor for a workplace where nothing gets done and all the workers don't really do anything. I'm thinking the "cat" is the evil human resources director ... someone will clean up the mess before HR gets word of it and the workers get relegated to the realm of progressive discipline. quote: The monster man could be several characters ... perhaps the Accounting Troll, but more likely the Dinosaur that appeared several times (apparently a parody of "Barney"). The "Skip, / Said the monster man to the clown" sounds like something Scott Adams might have written into the script. You've cleverly concealed the identity of Dilbert's manager (the "clown man") but, when you think about it, his hair does distinctly look like a clown's might. In short, I read this as the Dinosaur telling the Pointy-Haired manager to lighten up and have a good time. The people upstairs will be none the wiser. quote: At first, I had difficulty trying to pin your imagery to your inspiration, but today's Dilbert strip gave it away: http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert2007112223214.gif Ironically, the guy who never does any work and is always carrying a cup of coffee does seem to personify the Mobius strip (going through the motions of going somewhere but never really getting there. Also, nice double-entendre ("strip" referring to "Mobius" and "Strip" in the title alluding to the Dilber comic strip. quote: The repetition works well here. Thanks for the light-hearted read, Brad. Personally, I'm more a fan of Dogbert (the personification of ethos) ... perhaps you could work him into the poem somehow? Jim |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
jbouder, thank you. Now I can understand more of his "semi-clear" poem. Sir Brad. I'll be the last one to write and after you esp. |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
jboulder: Well, there has been "Caught on the Horns of an Enema: The Wit and Wisdom of Kelley Bundy," and "The Tao of Pooh." Why not "Dilbert Uber Alles?" I was absolutely clueless about this poem. Many thanks for the explication. Best, the other Jim. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
it is all about say(spill), hear and say again and hear again and say again as the M-strip. It is the gossip. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Seeker, Thanks. Karen, What is cell format? TM, To some extent, immaturity is the yearning that fills everybody. But that yearning only means that you want your life to be a comic strip. Jim, Great reading. Dilbert and this poem share the same inspiration. The other Jim, Funny you should mention 'The Tao of Pooh'. I find it impossible to finish that book. I usually throw it across the room after about two pages. After that, I finish my business and wash my hands. I don't know. I didn't expect Jim's reading nor did I expect anyone to 'get it'(except the trick). I was shocked to read that Dilbert strip. But it's the same idea. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I guess I can add a couple of things: Who are 'they'? It doesn't matter. What do 'they' say? The same damn thing they said yesterday. What was that definition of insanity again? |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
How interesting the questions are.It is your poem and I am waiting for you to explain it, yes, verse by verse. Otherwise I would continue my adventure of misunderstanding. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
I had the urge to say Yeats after reading this but I'll say Gyre instead and quote a line that didn't make his final draft. "The good are wavering, while the worst prevail". |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Thanks, Brad. I got the Dilbert inspiration during my first read, then did my morning "check the Dilbert strip" routine and was as shocked as you were. I took it as a sign. I was trying to make a point with my response about interpretation. Brad probably didn't intend the clown to the the Pointy-Haired Manager or the cat to be Catbert. Brad's poem is, I think, an illustration of a carefree attitude taken to an absurd extreme. The analogy isn't perfect, but I hoped it would be enough to get a discussion going on a tough poem. Sure, we might laugh when Wally confounds his manager when he compares his project to a Mobius strip (and wonder at the coincidence at the same time) just as we might laugh at a poem about people leaping up a hill and taking off their shirts. But in the real world, we would find such behavior at least a little odd and possibly a little disturbing, depending on the context. That's one of the things I like about the poem. It is both fun to read and, when you think about it, the images seem inconsistent with the tone. Dunno. Perhaps I should stick with my Dilbert reading. Yo Jimbo |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Ha! TM, Read Jim's commentary. That's pretty much everything I would say. And it's just so much more fun when someone else says it. Dilbert was the hook; I don't think it matters what it is specifically, just that it gets you thinking about how the words work together. I do that all the time. As an undergrad. I once wrote a paper comparing a classical Chinese poem to the whole Green Lantern mythos. And it worked! |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
co-incidence. You still need to tell why you put a pitiable cat in your poem. TM |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I just meant that I had the urge to draw the poem as a cartoon strip...I probably used the wrong term though. It's been a lonnnnnnnng time since I took that class. And yeah, tell us about the pitiable cat. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
I'd think of "somebody will put the cat out before it is too late" in the same vein as the other lines. "Gambol up the hill ... Somebody will clean it up ... be lazy and be free ..." These all seem to be similar ways to convey the same message. In short, don't worry, be happy, leave your socks on the floor, someone else will pick them up, leave he dishes in the sink, someone else will wash them, etc. etc. etc. I don't think the cat is an obscure symbol. All you need to do is think of what might happen if someone doesn't let the cat out "before it is too late." Having had a couple cats, I can testify that the smell is quite unpleasant. And this is CA. It's okay to take chances, stick you neck out, take at stab at the poem's meaning. In many ways, the author's explanation of the poem can be less interesting (and less revealing) than the perspectives of the readers. Just my two cents. And Brad, "In brightest day, in darkest night, no evil shall escape my sight. Beware the power--Green Lantern's light!" Now THAT is good poetry. And words I try to live by. Jim |
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hunnie_girl
since 2006-06-18
Posts 2567Canada |
I read this poem the other day and couldn't think of anything to say.. But ever since then I have had it on my mind. So hats off to you for making me think of something more than an hour lol. Great poem Brad Krysti |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
The cat might have meant meant eavesdrop...I'll pretend that I read this in the year of 2890. TM |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Alfred Bester wrote the original Lantern oath. He also wrote "The Stars My Destination" and had originally titled it, "Tiger, Tiger" from: quote: |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: That's a very cool thing to say. Thanks! quote: The final line is better, don't you think? But, ah, uh, are you trying to tell me something? |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Tiger belongs to cat family, you are right. but you don't mean here to hint something alike? What inspired this poem? if you want to tell. TM |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Sir Brad, you said that you rarely write emotions and feelings. And you poems have been written on a thing. Bird Today Mt.Halla Hibbies David Foster Wallace so what is the "thing" in this poem? or this is too much to ask?  TM [This message has been edited by TomMark (12-16-2007 04:16 PM).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Uh, the strip? I'm not sure what you're asking here. Hmm, what can I tell you: When I read a poem, I have three different initial reactions to poems I like: 1. A funny feeling in the back of my head, the start of a giggle. 2. A lightning bolt, "Wow!". 3. Silence. The feeling of silence if there is such a thing. Admittedly, it doesn't always happen on the first reading. When I dislike a poem, I have two initial reactions: 1. I've read it before. 2. I feel like I missed the joke. Explaining the poem doesn't help with this one. I have to get it at some point. If I don't, the poem is lost to me. Everything else is secondary to the above. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Brad, quote: “The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.” It definitely improves the Second Coming but I quoted the first draft because it‘s closer to my reading of your poem. "The good are wavering, while the worst prevail". Besides, I liked the ambiguity that prompted this: quote: Yes, your poem reminded me of the gyre as described by Yeats: quote: The poem is cyclical, it‘s a mobius strip, it‘s a Gyre - gambol on the hill says the monster, but what will people say? To gambol on the hill, and if anyone asks you should repeat the same thing. Don’t do the things you should do, that you need to do, just have fun, do what you like. If you say it long and loud enough the good will waver and the worst will prevail. A little like poetry. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Sir Brad, let me drive you crazy. I love this poem and I have read it many times. It is fun to the eye, pleasant to the ear and a knocking on the spirit. I also sensed philosophical meaning here because you mentioned Möbius strip. And the co-incidence to the comic strip And I could talk more about this poem if I want. But what was the thing as related a giant bird news.---Birds as related to a wedding---Today as related to father-in-law's funeral----Mt.Halla as related the essay style of David Foster Wallace as related to "personal style" as Hobbies. as this poem about? [This message has been edited by TomMark (12-16-2007 11:48 PM).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Grinch, That's high praise in my book (but you already knew that!) The only difference is that I've always seen the gyre as a kind progressive/dialectical model and the strip is anything but progressive. TM, Yeah, you're driving me crazy. Are you asking for an overall theme? What is common to all the poems you've mentioned above? I don't know. I'll think about it. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: I may have misinterpreted the gyre. http://www.yeatsvision.com/Images/GyreW.gif I always pictured it as a hoop drawn out around a cone, once at the highest point a sharp turn took you down the helter skelter to the bottom where an equally sharp turn starts you back up the widening gyre. The same idea as a mobius strip. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
http://www.yeatsvision.com/Geometry.html This is what I see. Aren't we just seeing different aspects of the same thing? |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Grinch, yours was an exciting movement. Sir Brad was talking about a very dull, very boring cycle. My understanding. [This message has been edited by TomMark (12-17-2007 08:52 PM).] |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Yes. No. Maybe. The double grye was a latter addition to show the progression of time in the original concept of a constant movement towards and away from the centre. That gives an unnecessary illusion of progression, a similar illusion can be given to the mobius strip using distance travelled. If a mouse drove a small car around a mobious strip the odometer on the car would seem to prove the mouse’s progression in miles travelled but that progression is an illusion. Yeats idea, as I see it is that there is a movement away from the centre that at it’s widest point collapses into a movement back to that centre. In The Second Coming I see the centre and the falconer as metaphors for good or the godhead, the falcon (man) moves further from god until anarchy is reached. In The Vision Yeats suggests that this is corrected by the second coming, the renewal of the centre and a movement back towards it. However in the second half of the poem Yeats posits the notion that the second coming may deliver a benign rather than a benevolent being. This is probably due to the timing of the poem, written shortly after the end of WWI and all the horrors it entailed Yeats would have sufficient cause to be pessimistic. This has ended up as my interpretation of The Second Coming and moved away from your poem but hopefully you can see where I drew my parallels, strip seemed to me an explanation of the first verse of The Second Coming whereas Yeats gives us a description. Strip is the mechanics of how the gyre works, the first verse of The Second Coming is what it looks like. Even if that’s not an explanation of what you were aiming for I’d consider adopting in any future edit. |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Brad, first and foremost, thank you for inviting me back to the CA forum. You folks always put me in awe, as I still shy away from digging apart others' poetry, as I seem to have only an editor's eye, and can only spout what others have taught me. Nevertheless, here I am. I have but one nit to pick with your poem. [I have thoroughly enjoyed the conversation on this one, with the distinct implication of the timing of the Dilbert strip. Hmmm, I wonder... ]Anyway, a former mentor taught me to remove articles from my poetry, inasmuch as sometimes the milk can stand alone, i.e.,: quote: With "the" removed before the word "milk", it brings the action up close and makes it even more personal. quote: As for the remainder of the poem, I wouldn't change it at all. AND, you've given me a new glint in my eye when it comes to reinterpretating the things around us! Thank you! |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Dear Sir Brad, first happy new year to you!! "Gambol up the green hill" has been in my mind for the last three days. I realized that this was very poetic and every words was jumping. and the stress pattern was so very nice to read it out. I read as GAMBOL up the GREEN hill. tell me why this is written on my brain deeply (not the whole poem but this single verse) ? |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
interesting...I've always thought that if one wrote a poem, read it to ten people and nine didn't "get" it, the poem didn't work. I must assume that you are writing for the one in ten who does. Interesting concept... |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Hell, if I can get a thread like this one everytime I write something, why should I care what those nine people get or don't get? Sunshine, Thanks, I'll get back to you. You've given me an opportunity to talk about articles in poetry. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Mike: quote: I think you might have heard this from the folks at Hallmark. Personally, I think there is a place for both easy and difficult reads. For many, Shakespeare's sonnets are difficult to "get" ... by the "if ... then" standard you've mentioned above, wouldn't that mean that many of Shakespeare's sonnets just don't work?Jim |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Sir Balladeer is talking about Ballad which in general passes down in verbal with memory. If one remembers it but nine do not the ballade for sure will get lost along the human culture development as General Uselessness. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Actually, Jim, not only Hallmark feels that way. I've also heard it from poets, one who I admire tremendously, very recently. I've also heard it from hundreds people who have gone to hear recitals from poets of various levels. I'm not advocating that's the way it must be but it's my belief that's why public acceptance and attitudes toward poetry has gone down the tubes for the past couple of decades. That's why, when asked about poems they like, many people (the majority of average citizens) will go way back to come up with examples...and I'll wager that they will select poems whose themes are easily understandable. That's basically my big beef with the abstract forms so prevalent these days....they have damaged the reputation of poetry as a valid medium among normal, everyday people. There was a time, I believe,when poetry was well-respected and even revered as a beautiful and meaningful means of writing and communication. It no longer is. Check the sales of poetry books now as compared to the sales of them, say, 40 years ago. I will venture to say it is not even close. I attribute this to the fact that much of poetry has become un-understandable to the common man, who wants to read something he understand, that tells a story, or makes some kind of point....in other words, that is entertaining. When a poet can do that and combine clever thought, wordplay and meaning into the work, THEN it becomes an excellent creation. When a poem only leaves a HUH? one one's face after reading, has it succeeded in it's goal? That must depend on the author's goal, I suppose. None of this is a criticism against this work of Brad's. His goal here is not to impress the public. As he just mentioned, he would be satisfied if 9 of 10 people have no idea what his poem represents, as long as it ignites a conversation like this. Nothing wrong with that. My original comment meant that I didn't get it and, not getting it, it doesn't work for me....not that I expect that to cause Brad restless nights but it IS critical analysis and all can give their own opinions. Shakespeare, Jim ? Actually, if you study Shakespeare's sonnets, you will find them very understandable. What may give people difficulties is the old English used in the construction of them.Were they to be translated into the language of today, I think you would find them to be easily understood, even by non-poets. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
wow, Sir Balladeer is talking about philosophy of poem in CA. Why writing and for whom I have lots to say but I am not going to say it now. I am going to look for some "quotes". |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Wow. I don't even read the funny papers, but I got the cartoon thing. I don't have much else to add, except that I am impressed by the amount of thought you put in to each and every poem I've read from you Brad. Curious, have you ever tried any free association/stream-of-conscious style stuff?  |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: I agree wholeheartedly with the above but then I got worried by this: quote: While it’s obvious that the majority prefer simple poetry Mike it doesn’t mean that more obscure poetry can’t be excellent too. I like both - I have to I write both. I do agree however that the profusion of abstract poetry has been detrimental to poetry as a whole, but I think the reason is that it’s easier to pass off bad abstract poetry for good abstract poetry and the very nature of abstract poetry can make it impossible for us mere mortals to separate the wheat from the chaff. We can all see, hear and recognise a good ballad when we see one, a good abstract poem however can be harder to spot, and there’s a heap more chaff than there is wheat. Sorry this ended up on your poem Brad - I honestly liked your poem (or my interpretation). |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Mike: I think I agree with Grinch here. Regarding Shakespeare, it is easy to get the gist of his sonnets, difficult to understand them well. It is easy to read them, difficult to study them. The Early Modern English can be an obstacle, but it becomes less an obstacle the more you read it. I would liken it to enjoying the sound of the well-tuned V-8 under the hood vs. getting under the hood and understanding how the V-8 is tuned to make that enjoyable sound. Me ... I prefer to get my hands dirty. Jim |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Sir Balladeer, "Poem does not belong to mass media. It is form of art. To appreciate true aesthetic content one needs to have trained sense just as to appreciate a painting. Young generation may drop Shakespeare's Sonnets but to translate into modern English to please everyone will certainly loss the original artistry. For a poet or a poem, Shinning once in life (or human history) is well enough " ---- Tom Mark |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Sonnet 121 'Tis better to be vile than vile esteemed, When not to be receives reproach of being, And the just pleasure lost, which is so deemed Not by our feeling but by others' seeing. For why should others' false adulterate eyes Give salutation to my sportive blood? Or on my frailties why are frailer spies, Which in their will count bad what I think good? No, I am that I am, and they that level At my abuses reckon up their own; I may be straight though they themselves be bevel; By their rank thoughts my deeds must not be shown, Unless this general evil they maintain: All men are bad and in their badness reign. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Brad: The difficulty in this one is mistaking Shakespeare's "I am that I am" for the "I AM THAT I AM" (God's response to Moses' request for God's name) in Exodus 3:14. I think it is better to understand this phrase in the Pauline sense (1 Corinthians 15:10). In my opinion, this one phrase is the fulcrum. The Authorized (King James) Version of 1611 renders 1 Cor. 15:10 "I am what I am," but since Shakespeare's sonnets were published two years prior to the AV, one should consider earlier English versions of the Bible and/or Church of England materials before rushing to the conclusion that Shakespeare is being audacious here. The Geneva Bible renders 1 Cor. 15:10 as: quote: Similarly, Trinity IX of the English Book of Common Prayer used in the mid-16th century renders the verse: quote: In other words, Shakespeare isn't asserting his moral authority over those standing in judgment of him ... he is asserting his moral equality with them. My clumsy paraphrase of the sonnet might go something like: It is better to be actually vile than to be considered vile when, not being vile, we are considered to be so. Consider the possibility that we miss out on good things, not because those things do not feel good to us, but because others criticize them as not good. “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” Why do others seek to expose what is in my closet when reversing the beam of light can do little else but expose their own hypocrisy? Who is to say their standards of what is good or what is not are superior to mine? By the grace of God, I am what I am. In fact, those attacking me have no way of knowing who is the straight one and who is crooked. Before one can accuse me of wrongdoing, the right thing to do would be to confront one's own shortcomings … unless, or course, since all men are bad, all men incapable of doing the right thing. Jim |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
THEN it becomes an excellent creation.....'deer While it’s obvious that the majority prefer simple poetry Mike it doesn’t mean that more obscure poetry can’t be excellent too. I like both - I have to I write both.....grinch I stand corrected, grinch. I should have said "then it becomes an excellent creation in the eyes of the reader." Obscure poetry can indeed be excellent,but more often it is excellent to the creator or to that like-minded person who knows what to look for to understand it, which brings satisfaction to both the reader and the poet. I remember in grade school I saw a picture of Guernica in the art book and thought, "how dumb is that??" The teacher then began to explain what the painting represented and, by the time he was done, I could see the bewilderment and fear on the faces of the animals,feel their terror,and I then considered it a masterful creation. Had there not been a teacher to explain it, I would have never seen it. If I (or many others) read a poem for entertainment, we don't want to have to have an interpreter nearby to understand it. If, on the other hand, we want abstract poetry that we can dig into and get satisfaction from unlocking the author's thoughts and purpose in writing it, then that's great. As far as the people out there who still buy poetry books(and the number is diminishing), I would feel confident in saying they fall into the first group with the second group consisting of poets writing for other poets. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Thanks for the clarification Mike. I agree. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
I agree (more than Grinch does) with you, sir balladeer. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Mike: quote: This is a false dichotomy. The options you presented are not mutually exclusive. I don't think most poets fit neatly into either category ... most of us are in the excluded middle (i.e., we like Dr. Seuss AND we like [FILL IN THE BLANK] modern poet's poem). We're people ... we like to be entertained and we like to be challenged. It probably isn't healthy for us to spend to much time devoted to either. I don't know anyone who doesn't want both in life. I just don't see the point of playing the two against one another when you don't have to. Jim |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Well, Jim, first of all, I was just expressing my opinion, as you have by saying "most of us...". Second I am not playing anything against anything. I am simply stating my thoughts on the matter, not intentionally trying to be controversial in the slightest. You give the impression that somehow you are offended or irritated by it. Sorry about that. If you reread my last paragraph, you will see that I spoke of READERS of poetry and not specifically poets. I spoke of people who buy (or don't) poetry books. I doubt that many people go out to buy Dr. Zeuss and e.e.cummings together. You may, being deeply involved in poetry, but does the average person? I still stand by my statements. I think that abstract poets write for each other. SHow me the abstract poetry that lines the shelves of your local bookstore. It doesn't sell. People don't buy what they don't understand. Poets who write for the public DO write understandable poetry, poetry that says something easy to define, poetry that the reader can easily relate to. You, or I, as poets can write any way we like. Poets should know their audience, however, and where to use it and not be offended if, by placing in the wrong place, it is not well received. I fond nothing wrong with abstract poetry at all. My only beef is when the poetry "critics" and experts publish it with the claim it is THE poetry of the day and average people, while shaking their heads and saying "huh?", simply ignore poetry. It diminishes the craft. That's not the writer's fault...it's the pushers, the same people who tried to cram modern art down people's throats, claiming that squiggly lines produced by worms crawling on canvases or small black dots in the middle of a white canvas were the ART of the day. It went well, until one day, so many people were saying "huh?", that they just lost interest. Seen any great modern art exhibits lately? Poets write abstract poetry for each other and that is as it should be. It is their language and that's where it belongs. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
"Few poets expect to make any money from their poetry, and none of us would ever write strictly for a buck or two. But wouldn't it be nice? The idea is to put together a CD of about 20 wallpapers, and maybe screen savers, and offer them for sale on the web site. Each and every poet on the CD would divide the profits evenly. On a per-poem, per-poet basis we're not talking a lot of money. But if we sold a hundred a week? Or a thousand? Personally, I think it would be wonderful if our resident poets could actually make some money from their hard work. It might give them time to write more! And there are strong indications our visitors might really appreciate it. " Ron Carnell http://poetry-magazine.com/poetry/poetry-001/03page.htm |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
The average person does not buy poetry. But 'Strip' aside, I'm curious, who are these abstract poets that you complain about? Or is everything Harold Bloom's fault? At the same time, I can't help but wonder what would happen if someone tried to turn Hamlet into a big budget movie. Or Macbeth? Or Lear? Or Othello? Or the Merchant of Venice? Without letting them know that it was Shakespeare? I deeply suspect that the same people who buy poetry would go to see these movies and few others. We live in simpler times I guess. |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
TM - and to all the others: I'm getting a real "apples" and "oranges" view, along with a bit of deja vue, via TM, thank you, on the whole subject of poetry. Somehow, I feel you are all arguing for the same reason, but ignoring the person who promotes writing poetry, for poetry itself. We are not in "simpler times" but by God, I wish we were. We could turn off the internet, turn off the TV, radio, ham sets, and just sit and listen to the inner sanctum of a voice who wrote poetry for its sake alone. Of course, I would miss a world of friends.... If we truly thought we could make money writing poetry, would any of us be here? Is it that there are only so many niches in the world that only a small quantum of us can fill; the rest of us, only enjoy? AND, if we could follow what we believe is our passion, and make $$ on that very passion [writing, whether it be poetry, or any other form] wouldn't we soon see that as just another job? Is it not possible that we just cannot write for writing's sake, because it is, and because it needs to be? Do we need to survive financially by it; or can't we just breathe and live by it? Yes, ok, I'm probably out of line with this but hey...it's CA...and it is my opinion...and because I thought that this thread got off on a side-track...and hopefully, we will get back to the Strip. |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
I agree with Balladeer. A couple hundred years ago a coastal trader at the mouth of the Amazon river signaled a passing clipper ship and ask for fresh water., the captain of the clipper ship signaled back , DIP IT UP. As you know the Amazon carries fresh water for two hundred miles into the Atlantic ocean. " I'm curious who are these abstract poets " Look around Brad. Tom, I didn't realize it was cut and paste until I read it the second time, sorry. [This message has been edited by chopsticks (01-05-2008 08:52 AM).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Sorry, Sunshine, I'm perfectly willing to go back to my poem. But I don't get it. Who are we talking about? I'm sure you guys can find someone. Or do you need a list of major poets, today? |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Here’s a list of popular contemporary poets in case anyone needs one. Charles Simic, Billy Collins, Nikki Giovanni, Gary Soto, Adrienne Rich, Donald Hall, Rita Dove, Mary Oliver, Liam Rector, Sharon Olds, Louise Glück, John Ashbery, W. S. Merwin, Naomi Shihab Nye, Lucille Clifton. I noticed that Ashbery is in there Brad perhaps this is an example of what Michael is talking about. /pip/Forum28/HTML/002108.html |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Of course I can get back to the Strip....I didn't get it. That's all. Who are we talking about, Brad? Nobody, unfortunately. The major poets today? There aren't any, recognized by the general public, with the exception of Maya Angelou, who does not dabble much in rhyme but is not abstract and her works can be easily understood. Sunshine, we're not talking about money or writing for a living. I was simply referring to the general public opinion about poetry today and I think it's sad that it has gone downhill, mainly because it has become out of touch with the public. It did get off-track from commenting one one individual poem an I apologize for that. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Brad— At last! a question that can be answered with reasonable certainty! Yes! Everything IS Harold Bloom's fault. EVERYTHING. The economy, the war (any war), politics (any politics), literature (any literature). I but scratch the surface. Anybody who can make statements as sweeping as his on the basis of intuition, a dash of evidence, some decent scholarship, and a whole lot of gall deserves blame as broad as his pretentions. Folks seem to get confused between sign and symbol, which seriously screws up discussion about poetry specifically and art in general. Most of us grew up being taught to decode what poems meant, under the impression that we were looking at the poem's symbolism. Not so. A symbol cannot be equated with a single thing and you cannot actually say what it means; it carries a chain of associations that trail off in many directions, all of which carry a certain numinosity, a spookiness of unconscious connection, about them. None of them in itself is sufficient to carry the weight of meaning. If, you try to talk about the meaning of Moby Dick in the novel of the same name, you'll experience a run-in with symbolism. You can't say The Great white Whale means mortality, means fate, means the search for meaning itself, means death, means obsession or means any combination of these things or means man's war with the environment and the ecological futility of it all. The whole notion of a symbol is larger than that. A sign, on the other hand does have a one to one relationship with something else. You can decode signs on a one to one basis. A particular point, say, on a map does stand for a particular place in the world. It is fair, in a poem, to ask about the plot, the events, of the poem. Most of the time, they're reasonably straightforward and unless there is willful or accidental obscurity, they should be accessable to paraphrase by the author or any fair reader. If they're not, most frequently, the books remain on the shelf unless there is some compelling other reason to buy them, good artwork, dirty pictures, or absolutely astonishing verbal dexterity that makes the obscurity worth putting up with. One cannot, by definition, put symbol into straightforward language. The languge it uses is analogic. One cannot explain symbolism, only offer pointers or use other analogies. Apparently most high school English teachers never understood this point, and for the last fifty years or more have tried to get students to do the impossible, and made them feel like fools for not being able to do so. They have also taught students to try and make their poems into puzzle solving exercises, in which the person who figures out the right intellectual answer to the special code wins. These are not traditionally poems, but riddles. Riddles are great fun, and some of them have quality enough to be thought of as poems, I'm sure. But poems are supposed to be more intense, more personal, and to offer more delight. They are, if they are actual lyric poems, supposed to be able to transform both the reader and the writer by the sheer force of their utterance. As Emily Dickenson said, she knew something was a poem when it blew the top of her head off. If you are sitting in a chair with the top of your head missing and smoke curling slowly out of the blackened crater of what used to be a perfectly decent brain pan and you need to ask what this poem means, you've just missed something fairly significant in your life. You need to be asked How the hell did the poet do THAT? And where can I get some of that magic for myself? If on the other hand, your skull is still in one piece, it's useful to ask yourself, How Come? What happened here to get in the way? And maybe, how can I help? There are never too many fireworks on a planet like this one, especially explosions of wonder. It drives me nuts to watch bright people try to paraphrase a symbol. Symbols don't reduce from analogic to digital form. It also drives me nuts for poets to refuse to give an account of the plot of their poems because they think the poem is too special to need to be clear. Poems, I think, along with Ezra Pound, ought to be at least as well written as prose, even in terms of clarity. Anyway, it's too late, and I'm drifting badly. Best wishes to everybody, and thanks especially to you, Brad. Fondly, BobK. |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
“Skip, said the monster man to the clown, be lazy and free, there's no world we can't be seen in, no place that corners you in the rain.” so everyone can see the monster and clown and not try to strip them of their mystery or magic? seems a little “anti-mobius” but mobius I is: “It doesn’t matter how much milk you spill as long as you don’t lose the cow.” I chase mine a lot. thanks for the perfectly wonderful brain tease. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear rWood, Sure hope so. Affectionately, BobK. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: And there it is. I've been trying to explain this for close to a year now. Can I steal this? I'll just start posting this from now on. I like a lot of things Bloom has said. I like the whole 'anxiety of influence' thing. Not as a Theory of Everything but it has yielded some interesting readings. High school teachers don't make the mistake of teaching the New Criticism, they make the mistake of teaching the New Criticism as the only way to read a poem. I like and use the New Criticism quite often. I'm also partial to Stanley Fish and Reader Response by the way. Now, with all that said, I've confused sign/symbol more than a couple of times (I get confused easily). I guess I'm just another victim. What'cha gonna do? Rwood, There are no cows in Mobiusland, but hey it'll be there when you get back or when they come home, I promise. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Dear Sir Brad, I love the sound of the poem. Since it describe a kind of cycle, would a pantoums style make it better? My thought. |
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