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Critical Analysis #2
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serenity blaze
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since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738


0 posted 2007-11-21 04:08 PM


* * *

     

* * *

Notice in the lines of "X"
are arrowheads which meet precise
the corners called notorious
North and South and West and East
the center of the cross contains
the force which many fools in vain
journey paths all trodden dead
vainglorious defeat.

I felt the trembling of four
legs of that pale horse of yore--
the bones had gathered for the reigns
to guide the dream equine to me
a test of truth and loyalty:
I'll drop my robe and crown and free
my will from fancied royalty--
all misconceptions of the stone.

Many are the mysteries--
I kept my eye upon the cloth:
The banner of The Mystic Rose
birthed tears to dear Persephone.

The children laugh because they know
the petals drop from Mary's Gold
the setting of the sun sets seed
regenerating blessedly
as the Reaper comes for me
without regard for caste or plea.

I close my eyes and dream of sleep,
a weary warrior again.

The Hermit came to cover me,
his lantern flickering ascent
Choose
ignoring bruise and bleed:
It's for this battle ye were bred.

My swollen eye watched the sun set.
I drank the blood my lips had wept
startling myself adept

with laughter

pain

and not-dead-yet.

* * * * *




© Copyright 2007 serenity blaze - All Rights Reserved
Yejun
Junior Member
since 2007-11-21
Posts 49

1 posted 2007-11-21 11:22 PM


Hi, Karen.

I'm intrigued by this poem as I know very little about Tarot cards. My feeling is that you've taken off in a very different direction here. Maybe it's person, maybe not.

From death to survival to fighting. It's an interesting run.

serenity blaze
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since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

2 posted 2007-11-22 05:50 AM


Thanks for taking a look at this. I'm not sure if intrigue is a question though.

I do enjoy the study of Tarot though, and from time-to-time I'll post my meditations on a particular card from a spread. I also realize that this forum doesn't often utilize graphics/pictures, but in this particular case, I thought it would be fun as a visual reference as to where I may have gathered my imagery.

But? Thanks for your time--but I'm still kinda unsure if there was a question. If ya got one, I'll try to answer it without turning this into Witchcraft 101.

Yejun
Junior Member
since 2007-11-21
Posts 49

3 posted 2007-11-22 05:39 PM


It was a question. It was just poorly formed.

I really am intrigued by this. You have a lot of good things happening here and a lot that I don't understand.

serenity blaze
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since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

4 posted 2007-11-22 06:15 PM


Um. Okay.

Why don't we try this?

Form your question in the form of a question, appropriately punctuated by a question mark.

Like this--you see?

Yejun
Junior Member
since 2007-11-21
Posts 49

5 posted 2007-11-22 06:47 PM


If the card is Death, is your poem an embrace of the inevitable or a struggle against it?

See? Did you notice that I have two question marks now?

What? Now, are there three, four?

Have I lost track of my thought?

serenity blaze
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since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

6 posted 2007-11-22 07:47 PM


The poem is a meditation on the Death Card as a misconception of finality when in actuality the card indicates transformation--an understandable misconception since a transformation would also logically indicate an ending to the situation in question. The question would remain subjective since this card was in the place of the significator (the position was indicated parenthetically in the original title in Open) in the Celtic Cross spread as a result of a general reading.


cynicsRus
Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591
So Cal So Cool!
7 posted 2007-11-23 09:49 AM


Karen,
I’m not into tarot and totally missed the connection, since I ignore any images at the beginning of the post anyway and attempt to get into the poem itself. I don’t really feel images have a place on CA posts, since a poem should be judged on its own overall merit, or lack thereof, and whether or not it can stand on its own.
That said; I was drawn into this one quite easily and found it a compelling read to the end. I’m usually bothered by inconsistent line-breaks--not so much on this poem though. Your almost consistent iambic tetrameter helped keep me intrigued, until: “My swollen eye watched the sun set.” By comparison It unmistakably trips up here.
BTW, I don’t think you should even bother with any explanation, since it all too often leads to inessential discussion.

Sid

Yejun
Junior Member
since 2007-11-21
Posts 49

8 posted 2007-11-23 03:13 PM


I don't think we have to worry about inessential discussion.

I'm not sure I understood anything in Karen's last post.

So Death doesn't mean death, it means transformation?

serenity blaze
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since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

9 posted 2007-11-23 03:14 PM


Thanks Sid. And no worries--I don't intend to do the entire deck, and I was trying to keep the focus on the poem in any ensuing discussion. I do have a bunch of these tarot based poems, but if the image chafes--in the future I'll put a link instead of actually using the graphic. I simply wanted to display that I had basis for the connecting thoughts. And grin, this is the second time in four days somebody told me I write in some of meter, and honestly, I am always....perklemmpt! (What a great word!)

I'm thinking on that line, too--sometimes I deliberately trip up my own rhythms (I'll call it meter when I know what I'm talking about) when I want to draw attention to something--that wasn't the case here, but I agree that it's a tricky line, as emphasis can be moved around in it.

"My swollen eye watched the sun set."

My mind reads emphasis on the "the" and "set". I don't even know if that helps my case or hurts it but there it is.

Thanks for time Sid. I do always enjoy your thoughtful critique. Yer a doll.


serenity blaze
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since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

10 posted 2007-11-23 03:16 PM


Yejun? EXACTLY.


serenity blaze
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since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

11 posted 2007-11-23 03:41 PM


Okay. But I think this is a good thing anyhow, even if the picture is annoying.

Oracles are notoriously ambiguous. In Tarot, the meaning of the card changes due to position, and it's relationship to other cards--mysteriously called "influences" in witchlingo. Even if I provide the entire spread, tarot readers, much like critics of dead poets, would argue endlessly what the spread reveals. That's why I can write five different poems with this same subject and title and they would all be vastly different. (Some times it might actually signify a tranformation that occurs because of an actual death. But this is a poetry forum, any further discussion on that would have to be in a discussion forum for the debate of such ideas.)

Is it very convenient for me to write a poem wherein I am the only judge of whether or not the symbolism is correct. Sure it is. But it's also convenient for the readers. I don't dictate what the poem means either. So all in all, I think it's a neat way to demonstrate something I said earlier about poetry critique. You can say "this part was vague and failed me" or "you lost me because your use of language was clumsy" or even "that image you used was cliche' and so trite I wanted to hurl" but you can't tell anyone that feelings are wrong.

Take a daisy for example. Really.

Have a daisy. Now to some, that might be a symbolic act of "let's be friends and maintain peace."

But if I use the word "daisy" in the context of the saying "push up daisies"--then it's death.

The symbolism is defined by the context. Just like the meaning of the card is "influenced" by position, and other cards.

I had hoped that this poem, and discussion would better illustrate my thoughts on critique.

And I'd be happy to oblige anyone's question about the unveiling symbolism, but ask Brad or Pete first. I think it could be done if everybody would focus on the poem, but it would be difficult.

But I have no problems with discussing how I got my ideas for the poem from the card. I just don't wanna teach Tarot in this forum. Even if it IS a great symbol for poetry critique.

So...ask your questions and I'll do my best to answer them. The card is there so I can say, "see where my mind found this action of thought?"

Trust that I understand that your mind might not see the same thing, and it won't bother me in the least if you think otherwise. But I will say this much about utilizing tarot and other symbolic images as devices for poetic exercizes. I love doing it because the Major Arcana in particular are full of symbolism that speak to a collective unconscious. So each of us could stare at that card and gather up different information and all of it would be correct. I'd like to say that this time in particular, although I've done this card before, I found something new in the card which rather startled me. And I have been studying Tarot since I was twelve.


cynicsRus
Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591
So Cal So Cool!
12 posted 2007-11-23 04:51 PM



quote:
"My swollen eye watched the sun set."

My mind reads emphasis on the "the" and "set". I don't even know if that helps my case or hurts it but there it is.


Though it’s what your mind wishes for, it’s a metric contortion of sorts to read it that way because, “the” is not where the accent naturally falls.
Nevertheless, in this poem you should be commended for getting so much of it right, considering you claim not to realize that most of this is written in Iambic Tetrameter, with a bit of Trimeter thrown in. Overall, it’s arranged so that the shift from one to the other is not jarring, but rather feels as though it were done purposely for modulation. This is why the stanza arrangement didn’t bother me, because when a poem has a controlled cadence, it scarcely matters whether there are even line breaks at all.

Sid

serenity blaze
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Posts 27738

13 posted 2007-11-23 05:08 PM


I promise you my ignorance is legitimate.

*grin*

But you did zero in on my attempts to control my audience. I never studied meter much until lately, but through trial and error I did discover that I could pace my reader through line breaks. I attempt sometimes to speed up the pace--not just through line breaks, but also utilizing assonance, alliteration and consonance. I tend to use double spacing to slow down the train of thought.

It's just a natural pause.

See?

I appreciate your noticing too--but I think I get credit for knowing more than I do, when I'm just being a control freak.

Centering works for me sometimes (on some pieces) because I like to utilize as much as I can to convey my point. I like to consider presentation as well. That gives me a tendency to over-do it at times too. But there's always an edit. I would rather say too much than too little--but conversely, even as a control freak, I like to leave enough room for my reader to identify more personally with the subject. I love layered symbolism, and I do understand that being deliberately vague isn't the wisest way to convey an idea, so I usually reserve that to convey emotion.

It rarely matters to me if someone understands my stuff completely in the literal sense. I love, love, love when they do though. If they feel it and understand it--I actually feel like I made a connection.

I'll keep banging my head on the metics wall too. If only so I can stop saying "I did WHUT?" when someone congratulates me on stuff I had no idea that I did.

Really.

Sometimes I'm just cleaning it and it goes off by itself.

Thanks again for your time.

hush
Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653
Ohio, USA
14 posted 2007-11-26 05:55 AM


I tried to reply to this yesterday but lost it... anyway, just wanted to say I think that the idea of tarot as a metaphor for poetry is really interesting- in that, as you said Karen- context (position) has everything to do with the meaning. I also think the picture is fine, if you think of this as a multimedia peice.

And Cid- what's wrong with discussion/ explanation? I don't think it takes away from the poem at all... I think it enriches it.

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
15 posted 2007-11-27 07:35 PM


Yore?

What about a tarot card challenge?

serenity blaze
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since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

16 posted 2007-11-27 08:45 PM


Yo?

A challenge....that seems so competitive or somethin'. But I'd love to read other people's take on any of the cards.

With the Rider-Waite deck, that's 72 imagery bedazzling symbolic representations of...

and that's the best part.

There's no wrong answer. I'm still here, though. I have yet to write The Hermit.

He's my bud.

and hush, thank you for your support. (I was a little worried I ran you off for a while--and why am I so afraid to critique in a critique forum?)

*sigh*

But sure, Brad. I was gonna do it anyway, and nope--I don't feel like it's "my" thing either.

So yep, I'd be interested in reading.

So write one already!

"JUST DO IT! You [deleted-deleted]--DO IT!"

grin

(that was kind of an inside joke--sorry)




Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
17 posted 2007-11-27 09:36 PM


Demanding, isn't she?
Stephanos
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Posts 3618
Statesboro, GA, USA
18 posted 2007-11-28 02:59 AM


Karen,

I like the "transformative" part.  It reminds me of discussions / book exchanges we've had of late.  Good job on the poem.

I especially liked this part:

"The Hermit came to cover me,
his lantern flickering ascent
Choose
ignoring bruise and bleed:
It's for this battle ye were bred.
"


Stephen

cynicsRus
Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591
So Cal So Cool!
19 posted 2007-11-28 08:50 AM


quote:
And Cid- what's wrong with discussion/ explanation? I don't think it takes away from the poem at all... I think it enriches it.


'Explanation,' is the only word I mentioned. And it was a reference to statements I made in previous threads, regarding the sum total of discussion compared to length of poem often being an indicator of the poem itself having failed. I have nothing against a spirited discussion taking place regarding the merits or faults of any given poem, until it becomes nothing more than a beauty-shop-backroom-gossip-session on fashions past and present--poetic or otherwise. Many of the ancillary posts in much of CA add absolutely nothing to the critique itself—in fact they detract from the overall thread because of the flotsam and jetsam one must navigate through in order to uncover a salient comment.
Hush, I’ve always respected your critiques so I wasn't intending to sound rude or overly sarcastic. Regarding the “multi-media” comment however, I was under the impression this forum was about critiquing poetry. Maybe I was mistaken, and we can all now begin posting ink blot scans in an attempt to interpret their deeper psychological significance?
(OK...maybe a little sarcastic)

Sid

serenity blaze
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since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

20 posted 2007-11-28 01:33 PM


*Karen sits up interested*

Would you? (Not the least bit sarcastic)

hush
Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653
Ohio, USA
21 posted 2007-11-30 07:01 AM


I guess I'm (too?) holistic? I see the interactions generated by the original post- the reactions to art- just as interesting and valuable as the art itself? And this thread discusses the fine line comparison between poetry and tarot- so the question could be asked: Is tarot poetry? Or, at least- could it be viewed through that lens?
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

22 posted 2007-11-30 03:04 PM


Take away the card and you still have the poem. It's just a source of inspiration for me. But I'm like you, hush. "Holistic" yeah, I like that word. I have saved entire threads too, because I liked the replies as well. ESPECIALLY in philosophy.

I don't have neat little ideas about what "art" is either.

It does seem like something fun to try though. I may post something yet in the Poetry Challenge forum.


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