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Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

0 posted 2007-11-20 11:08 AM


Time to start over.

If you post in CA from now on, it's time for real poetry and real responses.

If you are scared, run!

If you're not, talk!

You have a choice, make a decision!

If you want to complain, talk to me, talk to Ron.

You have one day.

© Copyright 2007 Brad - All Rights Reserved
stargal
Senior Member
since 2006-03-06
Posts 1352
OR USA
1 posted 2007-11-20 11:16 AM


Wouldn't that depend on your definition of "real" poetry and "real" answers, Brad?

"The rising morning can't insure that we shall end the day; For death stands ready at the door to snatch our lives away"
              @-->---

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
2 posted 2007-11-20 11:25 AM


How would you define it?

Are there poems you dislike?

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
3 posted 2007-11-20 11:53 AM


Look, my comments on your poem are already locked away for 24 hours. Are you ready?

I know that what we were doing before made us a better place. I know that confronting people makes for better poetry. I know that playing games, pretending or e-mailing people doesn't work.

I know, I've tried.

Let us do what we do and see what happens.

Ron, can't we try?

Can I?


stargal
Senior Member
since 2006-03-06
Posts 1352
OR USA
4 posted 2007-11-20 11:58 AM



Yes, there are poems I dislike. I think we all have poems we dislike and it might not be from form,
or lack of, but from content. I'd be lying to say there wasn't some poems I've read that I didn't like.

Actually, I was curious to see what your definition is?

Don't get me wrong, I think that CA is made for those who are serious in their comments and serious in their poetry,
people who are really wanting comments, of the non-fluff category, about what their work, and it's wonderful that your stating the rules but...

How do I know if what I call poetry measures up to what YOU call poetry?

I'm not published in any books, I don't write as a professional, do I have real poetry?

What I'm trying to say is that posting something like this:

"If you post in CA from now on, it's time for real poetry and real responses."

leaves a lot of questions, it's rather vague in its seriousness?

"The rising morning can't insure that we shall end the day; For death stands ready at the door to snatch our lives away"
              @-->---

stargal
Senior Member
since 2006-03-06
Posts 1352
OR USA
5 posted 2007-11-20 12:03 PM


"Look, my comments on your poem are already locked away for 24 hours. Are you ready?"

As ready as I was yesterday and the day before.

Why wait?

"The rising morning can't insure that we shall end the day; For death stands ready at the door to snatch our lives away"
              @-->---

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
6 posted 2007-11-20 12:23 PM


Heh,

knew I liked you.

Remember, they are meant for the poem, not you.

You I like.

Though you may not like me.

stargal
Senior Member
since 2006-03-06
Posts 1352
OR USA
7 posted 2007-11-20 12:57 PM


Brad,

I like you quite well, as well as to be expected

Thanks for not waiting, I rather enjoyed your comment.

Yet, as to my questions stated above?

"The rising morning can't insure that we shall end the day; For death stands ready at the door to snatch our lives away"
              @-->---

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
8 posted 2007-11-20 06:13 PM


Do you mean what my definition of 'real poetry' is?

If it's that, I mean something that you actually put some time into. Something that you , the writer, care about. Something that you'll say, "Thank you" to a critical comment but secretly think, "He or she just didn't get it."

Or something you might want to defend.

The impetus for all this was reading some comments a few years back (not really that far back) and realizing that in many ways we were more critical of each other than even 'heavy duty' forums at other sites.

Trying to figure out how to slice through this molasses thick atmosphere and get back to the fun stuff.

I realize this might cause headaches, but I'm around on a daily basis and figure that since I already have a headache right now, I can deal with most of it.

Grinch
Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929
Whoville
9 posted 2007-11-20 06:17 PM



quote:
If you post in CA from now on, it's time for real poetry and real responses.



Bravo, CA deserves real poetry and real responses; I agree wholeheartedly that people should make the effort and only post quality poems and responses.

Personally I don’t believe I’ve ever written anything I’d consider good enough to call ‘real poetry’ so I’m willing to back your initiative and only post in Open if it improves the overall standard in CA.


Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
10 posted 2007-11-20 06:23 PM


Then do so.
Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
11 posted 2007-11-20 08:33 PM


Brad,

What is going to change?


Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
12 posted 2007-11-21 01:20 AM


For you, not much. You and I are probably going to disagree forever on what actually constitutes quality.

That's a net plus for the forum.

But one thing that's gotta go is the kind of faux-humility that Grinch presents. I don't really care if you think your poems are crap nor do I care if somebody thinks his or her poems are a god's gift.

We need to go back to basics. Let people read poems and let them react as they see fit.

Personal attacks are still out, of course, but if feelings get ruffled now and then, apologize and move on.

I'm often struck by a kind of ever present fear of 'other people' or of hurting 'other people'. Maybe there's a reason for this, I don't know, I just know that it doesn't help conversation if that is the primary consideration and not the quality of the poem.

Jim and Chop, for example, need to take their gloves off.


serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

13 posted 2007-11-21 01:37 AM


Congratulations.



But um, "faux humility"?

I don't think you can judge how someone FEELS.

I do congratulate you on trying to get a grip on the reigns here--but if you want people to conform to a criteria, shouldn't a criteria be established?

*hands up*

gloves off, no weapons

total sincerity

You can teach people how to give a critique--but do you really think you can mandate how anyone reacts to that? That's sort of delving into human nature, y'think?

(My dad tried. He told me when someone applauds, say thank you and get the hell off stage.)

That was his suggestion, of course. It wasn't a RULE.

So if we're going to be perfectly clear--can we be perfectly clear?

(And btw--e mails work for me. Just because I haven't produced anything doesn't mean I won't.)

Thank you to all who did respond to my proclivity of privacy.

I am...cyclic. OBVIOUSLY.


Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
14 posted 2007-11-21 02:12 AM


Actually, I'm not trying to take over the reins, I'm trying to take the reins off.


serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

15 posted 2007-11-21 02:58 AM


OH.

*laughing*

Reigns...reins? sheesh. (I like you Brad, I really like you!)

I haven't been around as much (Oh-somebody-note-the-date-that-Karen-typed-that!) but anyhoo, I really haven't, so I don't know what it is that is or isn't working for you. I can see that you want to get down to business, whatever that might be.

All I can offer is my personal take on it though.

I have said that I came in here to study "form". Most people know that I have posted few attempts at that. It's unlikely that I ever will. I tend to write free verse, and free verse (unless I misunderstood Pete's explanation) has little if no standard to which it can be judged. So...okay.  

I understand. (I think.)

When you attempt to critique free verse, it's like saying "YAY!" to someone's most intimate feelings, or "BOO! you-are-so-deleted". (Tell me if I am mistaken, now--don't be shy.)

In the course of a few of the e-mails I've exchanged with a few of the incredibly patient people here at Pip, some have asked me why I would like to learn form if I am never going to use it. In the past, I've used the analogy of athletic training to explain my reasoning. (Football players high-stepping through the tires--at least two hours a day, five days a week will high step instinctively when it matters in the moment---and that's why, really, I enjoy the study of different forms. I want every tool I can possibly employ.)

Now. This analogy is good if you tend to write, "straight-to-the keys" and sometimes direct to the box. The difference between form and free-verse is a long, tired argument that has been going on since before the conception of this forum--so let's just not even revert to that. Now I'm going proceed to do exactly that--because I have to, whining, I am ME!

I did find it necessary to say all of this in the effort to attempt to convey the difference that I feel when I try to write utilizing a disciplined form as opposed to when I choose to simply "dance" in the free verse form of my apparent preference. (and thanks to Ron for that dancing thang   )

The difference is in the editing. If I write free-verse, straight-to-the-box -- it is there, it's posted, though not necessarily done. I can and have and will re-write the same damned poem a thousand times. (In fact, I believe all of my attempts are just revisions--that ain't no "faux humility" either---the proof is in the archives. I tell people often that I might have written only six poems--and they are all hopelessly entangled in each other within the numbers that are proof-posted here at Pip.) But a form?

Now that there is a different animal. An athlete can not relive the moment's decision of where to place a foot, or when to anticipate that decision to throw a full-body block or "play the ball." (There is truly an art to football, folks.) A musician can't undo a slip of finger on the string. This is how I relate to free-verse. I have rules that I do follow, but the coach isn't calling every play.

But form is a discipline. There are violations of "code", if you will. So when I attempt a form now, I tend to look at it longer, I tend to self-critique, and ultimately it's tossed before it is posted.

This is a completely different mind-set and I am gonna use analogies until I think everybody understands--free-verse is pliable, like clay--form is a hammer and chisel. (If ya'll don't like that art form think of the difference between jazz and classical?)

At the end of the performance, I really don't care into witch bin my offering is cast.

My goal?

If I made you forget where you were for even twoseconds--then I am happy. And I am human. I love applause. But I can't say for sure how that will effect (or affect) my next performance, or my eagerness to "do-it-again."

Some bands will make ya beg before they produce an encore.  I've killed a few Bic lighters and burnt my own fingers doing just that. Some musicians just play until their fingers bleed. And some guys, like James Taylor, will simply come out, put their hand over their heart, bow, and blush while they wave their gratitude.

There should be order, I do agree. But there is no formula for a great show--especially in a place where nobody is under contract. (We can negotiate that, Ron. *cracking myself up now*)

So, here we are again. What exactly do we all want?

*shrug*

I ask for my advice wherever I think I may be welcomed. Even in OPEN poetry! *gasp*

*wink*

And just to keep it cozy in here--

Now.

Tell us what you want.

.


TomMark
Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133
LA,CA
16 posted 2007-11-21 03:00 AM


Dear Sir Brad,

Do you mean that you are going to set up rules for CA. Such as we can only talk about
1. If the meter is right
2. If the measure is right
3. if the rhyme is right
4. If the style is right (iambic pentermeter or else)
5.if the title with the stroy
6. if the story is right
7. If the story is well developed
8. if there is a bitter way to write it?

and something we sahll not ask
1. what is the meaning of the poem?
2. why do you write it?
and more

Trust me. after you and Sir Essorant,or sir Balladeer if he ever gets tired talking about those Demos there shall be blank. So why don't you make CA invited commentators only?

( please don't at me)

[This message has been edited by TomMark (11-21-2007 04:08 PM).]

chopsticks
Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888
The US,
17 posted 2007-11-21 03:55 AM


“ Jim and Chop, for example, need to take their gloves off “

Brad I agree with you. I have been trying to show Jim how clever I am.

No more Mr. nice guy. Brad has inspired me. Jim I am coming for you with ever

adjective I know. Let this be a warning, I have hired two Boston taxi drivers, one of

whom I am even afraid of my self. One of the Drivers claim to have adjective that are not

even out yet. Jim, you have been warned so when you are lying there in a pool of rhetoric

don’t call to the heavens for help.

Thanks Brad, I needed that.

Btw Tomtoo I'm going to get you also. I remember when you called me a drunk.

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
18 posted 2007-11-21 04:20 AM


Rule 1: If I post a comment on a poem, you must disagree with it.

Rule 2: If someone comments on your poem, you must say thank you.

Rule 3: If you have a question, you must ask it.

Rule 4: If you comment, you must post a poem (double posts from another forum is okay).

Rule 5: If you like a poem, you must say that you liked it.

Rule 6: If you dislike a poem, you must say it.

Rule 7: If you have no idea what to say, you must say that.

Rule 8: You must e-mail me if you are angry or upset (with something happening here, not in general) .

Rule 9: You must read poetry from someplace other than here (I will send you a link if you don't have time for more than one a day.)

Rule 10: You must follow my rules as if they were the word of a god.

The penalty for breaking any of these rules is nothing.

I'll try to put more rules up later.


chopsticks
Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888
The US,
19 posted 2007-11-21 08:49 AM


I don’t like rule # 1

I don’t understand rule # 4

Other than that, everything else is OK.

Please don’t try to explain rule # 4 to me, I’m confused enough already.


Brad, I once worked for this outfit that had a sign in their New York office that read :

“ If you mess up here you will be sent to Baltimore “

I suggest if someone breaks one of the rules, send them to Baltimore. If they really , really mess up send

them to California .

We sent all of our idiots to California and the IQ in both states went up.

I think I may have just broke rule # 7  “California here I come, ragged ass and on the bum “


serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

20 posted 2007-11-21 09:21 AM


I'd like my ticket to Baltimore.

One way.

chopsticks
Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888
The US,
21 posted 2007-11-21 09:51 AM


Brad, your rules are working, you done got yourself  a volunteer already ; but she may be just looking for a

free ticket home for Thanksgiving .

cynicsRus
Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591
So Cal So Cool!
22 posted 2007-11-21 11:14 AM


Brad,
I think you’re on the right track, though that particular track has been tried in the recent past and led to more than a few derailments.  I’m skeptical that this place will ever move beyond its currently assigned state as Open II.


Speaking of California...
I had already been sentenced here some twenty years ago and am still awaiting my pardon, while secretly hoping it never comes--considering I moved here from Phoenix*, where I was born and reared.

*Yes, it is a dry heat but all that means is that you don’t sweat on the ambulance ride to the hospital after your latest heat stroke.


Sid
Just a bike ride up the street from Surf City.

oceanvu2
Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066
Santa Monica, California, USA
23 posted 2007-11-21 11:35 AM


Chops:  You and which Army?

Brad: Wah?

Thumper the rabbit.

chopsticks
Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888
The US,
24 posted 2007-11-21 11:57 AM


“Chops: You and which Army?”

I don’t need an army.  My dad said us Okies took California with out firing a shot.

Brad, are Jim and I doing it now ?


Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
25 posted 2007-11-21 12:01 PM


Brad,

I meant what is specially going to change for the forum?  The forum doesn't have any list of expectations as far as writing critically.  I think it ought to have one, and one that all may easily find when they come into this forum.  For example, I think the superficial basics of making one's work readable, generally using capitals where they belong, correct spelling,  grammar, and punctuation deserve at least to be expected in a critical forum.  I encourage discussion about such things whereever it may be needed, but I also encourage an expectation of them, especially in a critical forum.  If someone is interested in critical discussion about how to improve his work overall, he ought to show at least the initiative of making his work readable and writing in a critical manner.  When we don't need to wade through and deal with neglectfulness about superficial basics of simply writing readably well, we may actually focus critical analysis on the poetic aspects of writing poetry well.


chopsticks
Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888
The US,
26 posted 2007-11-21 01:21 PM


I mostly agree with Essorant. However, many a flower has bloomed unseen , so if an unknown Kipling

comes on here with  something like ( The Female Of The Species ) I will gladly ignore any of his mistakes.

The Female Of The Species is my favorite poem, I am so pro woman.

I may even vote for Hillary.

My Sainted mother raised four kids without the help from anyone .


stargal
Senior Member
since 2006-03-06
Posts 1352
OR USA
27 posted 2007-11-21 01:53 PM


Brad:

I am happy that you are trying to make a change in this forum, I think it's about time. I do reserve the right to remain skeptical, if you notice, CA went through something similiar to this a few months ago. Sure, it changed some, things are always changing, but it was easier to talk then to act and I feel you will run into the same problem, talk is just talk.

The rules are nice, it gets things out in the open and leaves less gray zones. I do question rule #9, I agree with it whole heartedly but I'm not sure that it is something you can dictate. Isn't this more like Pirates of the Caribbean, not exactly rules more like guidelines?

Ah... I don't know what I'm saying, but... Good luck? (No, that wasn't sarcasm, was it?)

Stargal~

"The rising morning can't insure that we shall end the day; For death stands ready at the door to snatch our lives away"
              @-->---

Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
28 posted 2007-11-21 02:07 PM


"Ah... I don't know what I'm saying, but... Good luck? (No, that wasn't sarcasm, was it?)"


I think you probably do.  But when you say something like this people may not trust your words very well.  It is not a good way to end a comment, and it would be a worthless way to end a critique.


stargal
Senior Member
since 2006-03-06
Posts 1352
OR USA
29 posted 2007-11-21 02:27 PM


Actually Essorant, I don't know what I'm trying to say in reference to the guidelines vs rules part of the comment. How can it work? It won't work? Rules have consequences, guidelines you can ignore, or, at least in my ... umm... rule book, that's how it is.

Truthfully, how can anyone consider someones word on here as trust worthy? You, to me, are a computer screen that pops up with unexpected twists, not meaning that in a bad way, I'm just saying, how DO you know? You don't, you can't. Unless, of course, in the near future we start having computers that rate are truthfulness with ID cards

Stargal~



"The rising morning can't insure that we shall end the day; For death stands ready at the door to snatch our lives away"
              @-->---

oceanvu2
Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066
Santa Monica, California, USA
30 posted 2007-11-21 03:05 PM


Hi Ess -- While we disagree on a many things, your critical thinking, (except the dismissal of free verse) is usually pretty dead on, as I find it to be here.

I don't know what's going on with C/A at the moment.  I do know that we've recently lost at least, Grinch (per his post here), Moonbeam, Aurelian, Stephanos, Jennifer Maxwell, and, bless his 15 year old heart, Viking Metal, to be replaced with, ah, not much.  Maybe it's cyclical.

I'm really in a quandry.  The PiP rules I buy into are the ones about respect and lack of gratuitious, or even meaningful, profanity.  And I am disrespectful and profane by nature, just not here.  I don't buy into "shoulds" on other than a pragmatic level -- as in, "You should see a doctor if you're running a fever of 105 and still lucid enough to call one."  At the same time, I think people "should" think about what they post here.  Paradoxical.

If someone chooses to display ignorance and incompetence here, well, that's up to them. If someone chooses to present something thought out, that's up to them, too.  It doesn't mean that something thought out won't be flawed, that's what critiquing is about.

My own choice, and, apparently, after going through recent posts in CA, yours, is not to respond in the absence of very much to respond to.

As an apposite (spelled correctly) to lying in a pool of my own rhetoric (per Chopstics), I offer to lead a rousing chorus of "Onward Christian Soldiers."

Jimbeaux in limbeaux.

[This message has been edited by oceanvu2 (11-22-2007 11:48 PM).]

chopsticks
Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888
The US,
31 posted 2007-11-21 06:57 PM


As an apposite (spelled correctly) to lying in a pool of my own rhetoric (per Chopstics),

Jim, if you are going to quote me please be accurate, I said , “a pool of rhetoric” anybodies rhetoric even my own.

I wasn’t going to post in this thread and I wished I hadn’t, its out there forever.
When Brad said what he did about taking off the gloves, I thought I will have a
little fun and Jim will answer back sharply.  It  was all in fun with me, but I guess I showed my ignorance and incompetence.

Btw, to be totally truthfull,I guess I was the one that needed the correction.



TomMark
Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133
LA,CA
32 posted 2007-11-21 07:28 PM


Hi, chopsticks
your poem is from your brain not your hand. So you shall take your hat off instead of your gloves.

Tomtoo

chopsticks
Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888
The US,
33 posted 2007-11-21 09:12 PM


Hi Tomtoo, and hats off to you my friend.

TomMark
Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133
LA,CA
34 posted 2007-11-22 07:59 AM


Thank you Chops!!

And dear sir Brad, did you forget to tell us that who was going to say the final "thumb-up or thumb-down" to those poems?

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
35 posted 2007-11-22 08:20 AM


I don't know why there has to be a final anything. You read a poem, say what you think, and move on. If somebody disagrees, they disagree. Choose to respond if you want to, ignore it if it's not your thing.

I'm not going to boot anything because I think it's bad, I can't control you guys or what you write (nor do I want to).

What I want is more honesty, less inaction and less, what should I call it, negative fear. If you feel a little trepidation before posting here, that's a positive thing. If you  can get through those initial posts, through the sense of anguish or insecurity, then maybe you can start saying more about the poetry itself.

There is a rush to writing. There is a rush to reading. There is a rush to being read.

I want to make that rush more pronounced.

Sid's right of course, we'll just fall back into our own habits soon enough and that's okay.

But let's see what happens while we're trying.


chopsticks
Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888
The US,
36 posted 2007-11-22 08:14 PM


"What I want is more honesty, less inaction and less, what should I call it, negative fear. If you feel a little trepidation before posting here, that's a positive thing. If you can get through those initial posts, through the sense of anguish or insecurity, then maybe you can start saying more about the poetry itself.”

Brad, you are a man with a plan. That negative fear you speak of, holds us all back to some degree. Don’t be intimated by thinking you can’t write poetry. I choose to display
my ignorance and incompetence on here, apposed to having that negative fear. I know my poetry is not going to the worlds fair, but that is not going to stop me.

Hip Hip Hurray for Brad.

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
37 posted 2007-11-22 09:09 PM


quote:
. . . there's a certain scope in that long love
Which constant spirits are the keepers of,
And which, though taken to be tame and staid,
Is a wild sostenuto of the heart,
A passion joined to courtesy and art
Which has the quality of something made,
Like a good fiddle, like the rose's scent,
Like a rose window or the firmament.


--Richard Wilbur, from "For C", The New Yorker


oceanvu2
Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066
Santa Monica, California, USA
38 posted 2007-11-22 11:34 PM


StarGal, RE: "Truthfully, how can anyone consider someones word on here as trust worthy?"

If you really feel that way, you seem to have wasted a lot of time with your previous 1,276 posts, which would be a shame.  You might consider blogging on YouTube or MySpace where the cedibility factor is ever so much higher.

Incidentally, "someone's" is usually written with the apostrophe included, and you might be amazed at how often "trustworthy" appears as one word.  Not to mention darned tricky stuff like the difference between "are" and "our."

Perhaps you might sponsor a motion to promote poetic licenses.

Best, Jim

[This message has been edited by oceanvu2 (11-23-2007 12:26 AM).]

oceanvu2
Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066
Santa Monica, California, USA
39 posted 2007-11-23 12:25 PM


Brad: re: "Sid's right of course, we'll just fall back into our own habits soon enough and that's okay."

Sid-the-man is absolutely prescient.  C/A seems to have dived back into the dumpster almost overnight.  Why is this Okay?

Personally, I get to stare at death every day, wondering who is going to blink first.  You get to look at this stuff.  Ah well, we all have our burdens to bear.  But I'm not convinced I'd trade ya.

Oooh good.  Hackles rising.  Dander up.  It's alive!

Bare knuckle 'Beaux!  

stargal
Senior Member
since 2006-03-06
Posts 1352
OR USA
40 posted 2007-11-23 12:52 PM


Oceanvu2,

I really do feel that way. I haven’t met a pip member yet whose words I find less then honest but this IS the internet, and even though I’d like to believe in the “good” of all mankind, you just don’t know, some caution should be used.

Essorant felt that by the way I worded something people might trust my word less. Ok, I’m not going to argue with that, it is up to the individual, I can’t make you believe in anything I say.

No, I don’t believe I have wasted my 1,276 posts. As I said it is up to the individual, if they believe me or not, and if at least one person found one of my posts to be beneficial, in any way shape or form, it wasn’t wasted.

Thank you for pointing out my errors in grammar/spelling. I find I easily misuse words of are/our, I usually type to fast and spell the word that comes to mind first and never notice my mistakes.

Perhaps the subject of promoting a poetic license is best left untouched.

Stargal~



"The rising morning can't insure that we shall end the day; For death stands ready at the door to snatch our lives away"
              @-->---

oceanvu2
Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066
Santa Monica, California, USA
41 posted 2007-11-23 01:46 AM


Stargal -- Thank you for getting me to laugh at myself again!  Been a good day over all.  I got to be pompous, angry, confused, depressed and laughing!  Ate turkey and a little crow, too!  (BTW, "too" is the word you use when you type "to" fast.

I'd accept the poetic license contingent on the amount of personal information required by the application form.  I'm not giving out my social security number or the three digit confirmation code on the back of my ATM card.  You're right, it is still the Internet.  My phone number is OK, though.  I may be the last person in the greater Los Angeles area still listed in the phone book.

And I NEVER make speling misteaks.

Best, Jim   

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
42 posted 2007-11-23 02:19 AM


Well, I had a really great comment in my head and you guys have ruined it by continuing to talk.  

Still, I'm perplexed by something.

Why is trust or trustworthiness a factor here?

Are people worried about some kind of 'Dangerous Liaisons' thing?

[This message has been edited by Brad (11-23-2007 04:13 AM).]

stargal
Senior Member
since 2006-03-06
Posts 1352
OR USA
43 posted 2007-11-23 02:22 AM





Oceanvu2 --I find that with age my spelling and usage of grammar is still atrocious. I believe I shall continue on as I have, letting people point out my errors then promptly forgetting their corrections, much to my shame.

Personal information is hardly required, all I really need is a signed document stating you won’t sue me, if you are unsatisfied by following results, and mayhap one or two finger prints as well   

I do believe we are off subject.

Brad-- I don't believe being trustworthy has much to do with the reason of this post, it just came up.

"The rising morning can't insure that we shall end the day; For death stands ready at the door to snatch our lives away"
              @-->---

Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
44 posted 2007-11-23 11:51 AM


Stargal,

Perhaps a little example may help:

A teacher is trying to teach a student understand a point in a lesson.  She is inspiring the student with some confidence, and the student is starting to try harder and work harder.  And the student is starting to understand!  But all the sudden the teacher gets up and says:

"Ah... I don't know what I'm saying, but... Good luck? (No, that wasn't sarcasm, was it?)"!  

Do you see how this kind of manner may "shatter" the experience that was taking place?

Not saying you are a teacher or trying to teach a lesson, but it expresses in a more obvious way what I meant about words and trust.


Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
45 posted 2007-11-23 12:23 PM


"I'm not going to boot anything because I think it's bad, I can't control you guys or what you write (nor do I want to). "

Most of us may know this already.  When I mentioned a list of expectations I didn't mean something that people would need to live up to in order to be able to post in Critical Analysis.  Offering a "map" so to speak, would not mean you need to enforce the "map", but at least it could declare some things that are generally expected.  You can't say you don't expect people to live up to critical at least to some extent in a forum called Critical Analysis?   But this has always been left without any declaration of what is trying to be achieved as critical.   Something to declare the expectations of the "critical" in this forum could make a difference if it were something that were made wellknown and something that the moderators in this forum would also be proud to support.


stargal
Senior Member
since 2006-03-06
Posts 1352
OR USA
46 posted 2007-11-23 01:25 PM


Point taken Essorant, your reasoning is sound.

Thank you for mentioning it. I’ll try to refrain from making comments of that nature

Stargal~

"The rising morning can't insure that we shall end the day; For death stands ready at the door to snatch our lives away"
              @-->---

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

47 posted 2007-11-23 04:36 PM


quote:
Are people worried about some kind of 'Dangerous Liaisons' thing?


Um, what does that mean?




cynicsRus
Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591
So Cal So Cool!
48 posted 2007-11-26 12:12 PM


“Enough” with pretentious pampering already!

This forum always seems to get stuck at the same crossroads: Where the sensibilities and sensitivities of one group becomes offended by certain critics preferring the unambiguous approach--analyzing certain works in a more critical manner. Invariably, such critics are lambasted and lectured as to the proper way to critique, on a forum that, ironically enough, is named Critical Analysis. Unless they are moderators or entrenched members with tens of thousands of posts to their credit--notwithstanding the insignificance of those tens of thousands of posts--their critiques are themselves critiqued as either too harsh, inappropriate, insensitive or downright callous. Never mind that comments made were originally about the poem itself and not the author.

It always seems to come down to someone wanting a clearer definition of what Critical Analysis really is and should be. The answer is really not so complicated, if you give any validity whatsoever to a Webster’s Collegiate. Therein, one will find that, "critic" and "critical," oddly enough, are directly related to, "criticism." So why should it seem so odd to criticize a work, apart from its author--giving no concern to actual names or ages--without being accused of “piling on?” Furthermore, how is it that one is so easily accused of making a personal attack when the author is unknown to the critic and completely hidden away behind the veil of anonymity known as a screen name?

I would submit that the only “piling on” that happens around here is from those attempting to turn a mound of fresh cow dung into gold. Don’t get me wrong, there are lots of folks getting rich by recycling cow dung, but even so it takes lots of work over several weeks or months, along with the right mixture of dirt added to get it to the proper consistency and spread-ability, if you will. Only then is it finally bagged and peddled to the general public. The one thing everyone agrees about is that manure, from its initial…extruded stage, to final packaging always stinks. The only real disagreement is in just how much it stinks. Certain manure transporters and peddlers seem to have developed a higher tolerance of stench within the olfactory receptors and can’t distinguish any odor at all. Others on the other hand, will always be aware of the familiar stench and call it as they smell it.

Sid

Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
49 posted 2007-11-26 01:13 PM


The more important question may be whether the blunt and somewhat overbearing approach is actually more helpful.  There are more possibilities than giving warm fluff or leaving cold icecubes.   If this forum is about maintaining respectful discussion too, not just coldly naming faults and then moving on right away, then I think courtesy, alongside criticism, is very important.   If someone needs to pretend to be courteous, so be it.  I would rather he pretend to be courteous than sincerely be rude or overbearing.


serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

50 posted 2007-11-26 02:50 PM


I think we should all quit critiquing the critique. I enjoy reading others immensely 'cause I can (I really can) learn from the errors and successes of others.

Sid, for the record, I don't believe I've ever read a critique from you that could be construed as personally insulting. I am delighted when you reply to me--because I know that if I mucked up something, you will tell me so. So when I get a thumbs up from you? I do a little happy snoopy dance over here. I feel like I earned it.

If criticism is enough to make someone stop writing, then you are doing that person a favor. I honestly wish I could quit.

It is a freaking obsession.

And Essorant? I know your intentions are good, but sometimes I think you want to control style--in poetry as well as replies. I'll take your point into consideration and try harder to tone myself down. Sometimes Karen just leaks out.

Literally.

Brad? The only quibble I have with you is that you are too....considerate?

Like with the classic poetry thing? Don't ask people if they want it--just do it. Even if they don't participate, they will read. Allow yourself a little lecture too. I promise you if you do that--oh boy will they reply! *laughing* If you are wanting input on how it should be done. Just SAY--"Look people, I think this will be beneficial, so I'll be posting a classic poem every so often for the purpose of study. I'd be happy to hear your ideas on it."

Just like that. Be firm, Brad. Those who want to participate, will.  

(And I still don't know what you meant by Dangerous Liasons.)

I don't think this forum is suffering from superfluous replies, either. And on the occasions when people do allow themselves to have a little fun in here, I don't think that's a bad thing. So if I like something, I reserve the right to say that I like it. Sometimes I don't know why I like it, but trust that I'm wondering. You guys have been of great assistance to me in that regard.

Sometimes I read some of the more in-depth replies, and when you point out where something is RIGHT about the post--then I'm like "ohhhhhhhhh---NOW I see how that works."

I am very grateful to Brad and Pete too.

They don't try to micro-manage this forum to death. So an occasional spat or free-for-all is expected. *shrug* Um, I don't know if ya'll have noticed, but writers tend to be opinionated, and they WRITE those opinions. So lighten up when people act like...people.

I'm trying to develop a personal criteria too.

1. I like to address the poet as well as the poem. I'm just like that. I don't think that means everybody has to be huggy-kissy, but let me be. It's a small, friendly gesture and I don't think it hurts anything to say "hey". If you prefer more formal salutations, so be it.

2. ADDRESS THE POEM. If all I have to say is that I like it, I try to explain what exactly it is that I like and pinpoint that.

3. Sometimes I like the whole damned thing. And I think it's okay to say so.

4. Sometimes I just don't "get it" and sometimes I will say so. Sometimes I'll even ask. If anyone is uncomfortable answering my questions, they can either say so, or e mail me. (Some people feel that the author's interpretation ruins the poem for others and themselves, and I understand that too.

5. Thank people for their time--either way.

And Essorant--I realize I am heavy on the sarcasm too. My apologies if that has caused offense. In the future, should I address one of your offerings, I'll try harder to keep your sensitivity in mind.

Now why is all of this so hard?

And Brad, what DID you mean by Dangerous Liasons? (And am I spelling that right?)

OH. Please--and I ask this of everyone--if you see me consistently misspelling a word--would ya tell me? If I'm doing it consistently chances are I didn't check because I think that is the way it is spelled.

Now I just typed myself a proper headache.

But I think it was worth it.

Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
51 posted 2007-11-26 02:51 PM


With due respect Ess, I suppose it's all in how you see it (or smell it) but I don't remember seeing rude or overbearing in this forum in quite some time. Some critics may have a softer delivery than others but so far everyone seems to be playing by the established guidelines.

TomMark
Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133
LA,CA
52 posted 2007-11-26 03:00 PM


If you call a poem bad, then you may tell the truth by your own or general standards.

But if you call a poem trash, or something you can judge with your nose, then I say that it is insulting.

chopsticks
Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888
The US,
53 posted 2007-11-26 03:19 PM


Essorant that was a good post about overbearing. The only time I have heard it said better was when a

reporter  ask Eisenhower  did he mind when they called him Ike. He said, not at all, in fact I love to be

called Ike. He went on to say, there are two ways to lead by fear or affection and I have always

led by affection .

That is when I knew he was going to be president.

Good luck to you, Tom and Balladeer.

Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
54 posted 2007-11-26 03:23 PM


By the way, I was not trying to say that anyone was necessarily outrightly rude or overbearing.  But I think this forum is and should also be about a manner of communication that is conductive to confidence with each other too.  People need to be comfortable and confident in order to wish to remain a part of that.  Although a critique that is only for the most part harsh and negative is acceptable, I don't think it is especially what makes people want to stay in a discussion and continue being here.  It is actually a form of being able to communicate with others, and get help, where they may also find some comfort and confidence, that most likely will keep people here, despite also getting negative criticism.


Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
55 posted 2007-11-26 04:26 PM



Essorant that was a good post about overbearing.


Thanks Chopsticks.  I guess I don't agree with the notion that trying to wake confidence in whom we are speaking to isn't very important.  Personally, that is how I would like to improve my own critiques.  If the critic can show someone a problem and give him/her confidence about how to deal with the problem well, that would seem the most helpful way of critiquing.  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (11-26-2007 05:06 PM).]

Grinch
Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929
Whoville
56 posted 2007-11-30 02:33 PM



quote:
I don't know what's going on with C/A at the moment. I do know that we've recently lost at least, Grinch (per his post here)



I’m not completely lost Jim, I may not be posting poems in CA but I’m still reading, and sincerely hope that when the medication they’re feeding me gives me back my brain I’ll be posting critiques too.

Until then consider me just faux-lost.

Craig

Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
57 posted 2007-11-30 03:05 PM


Hey sorry to hear about your illness Grinch. Get better soon. We actually do miss you. (God, I hate it when I get all mushy like that)

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

58 posted 2007-11-30 03:06 PM


We are pretty much the chemical plant forum these days anyhow, Grinch.



But I do understand your reluctance.

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