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Essorant
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since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada

0 posted 2007-09-25 10:10 PM


Cont'd from: /pip/Forum28/HTML/001908.html


Therewith Achilles, swift of foot,
With angry eye his answer put:
"O me! O thou in pride beseen
Greedy and wont to overween.
How should a Greek for thee be stirred
With ready heart upon thy word,
With whole intent and busy care
Journies to go or battles bear?
I never came to fight o'er sea
For wrongs Troy's spearmen did to me.
They never, stealthy with their forces,
Drove off my oxen or my horses,
In Phthia rich of soil and root,
Men's nourisher, ne'er harmed the fruit,
For many mountains and much sea
Stand in between their town and me.
We followed thee unto this place
For Menelaus and thee, dogface!
Seeking to win for your own joy
A recompense from men of Troy.
Thereof thou takest little heed
But threatest to usurp my meed,
For which I laboured hard and won,
Alotted by each Grecian son.
My meed is ne'er as thine such gain
When small rich Trojan towns are slain
And yet my hand, indeed, the more
Performs in feats of forceful war.
But if division come to be
The greater prize is given thee.
I carry back to ships dear less,
Though full forspent from battle's press.
Now, back to Phthia shall I stray,
For it is better not to stay
With my curved ships, dishonoured here,
To hoard up wealth for thee all year.

But Agamemnon, king of men
Thus to Achilles answered then:
"Flee! By all means, if so inclined,
Nor shall I try to change thy mind.
Others to honour me will choose
But most of all foresighty Zeus.
Of all the kings by Zeus increased
Thou hateful art to me unleast,
For ever strife is thy delight
Battles and wars thine appetite.
If thou full mighty proven be
Likely a god has gifted thee.
Begone! With all thy ships and hoard,
And rule thy Myrmidons, their lord.
Thy wrath to me is not a care
But wit right well and be full ware
Since Phoebus bids away my prize,
Chryses' fair daughter from mine eyes,
I send her with my ship and friends
Back home anon, and make amends.
But in return, I make as mine
Faircheek Briseis, prize of thine.
And I will nim her from thy tent,
Doubt not these words are fully meant,
To show thus plainly as I can
How far I am the mightier man,
And others shrink before my face
From claiming likeness to my grace!




© Copyright 2007 Essorant - All Rights Reserved
oceanvu2
Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066
Santa Monica, California, USA
1 posted 2007-09-27 01:36 AM


Hi Ess --  I truly admire your persistence and due diligence for accuracy, but gosh, this is awful stuff.  It goes beyond eccentricity into obsession with wretchedly forced rhyme, and a hopelessly dead line.

I didn't like this when you started it, and I don't see where it is getting any better.  O Gosh!  There might come a point when you step back from this, read it, and wonder in what sense does it work?  What does it add?

It's just me talking, ESS. Odd as it may seem, I do agree with many of your arguments in favor of formalism.  And, despite your eccentric insistance on "re-languaging," you write some pretty decent poems.

This, in my arrogant opinion, isn't one of them.  You've got the skills to undertake this, but why couch it in doggerel, as in "rude, crude, or poor?"  I'm sorry Ess, but again,in my arrogant opinion, it's tripe.

You're too bright to need anyone to point each and every clunker.  Just read it out loud and listen to it.  I think you are going to find yourself laughing.

You know we've known each other for a while, so I expect you to go on the offensive.  My biggest is question is, "is This really the approach you want to defend?"

Another self deluded pal, Jim

Essorant
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since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
2 posted 2007-09-27 07:55 AM


No, obviously your critique is not offensive to me.  I expect such critique when I come here.

Anyway, in which way is it " couched in doggerel, rude, crude, or poor?".  You could at least give examples, or advice for improvement, especially if there are so many flaws in this piece.  


Brad
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since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
3 posted 2007-09-27 06:46 PM


I am looking at pp. 5-6 of my translation of the Iliad right now -- Robert Fitzgerald, 1974.

It is in iambic pentameter.

I keep reading this one, I compare it to his and I don't think the fault is yours. I keep seeing John Cleese or Will Farrel saying these words -- in either translation.

There are a couple of voice recordings of Ezra Pound reading his stuff and I find myself having the same reaction.

While, and I suspect this goes for all of us,  have tremendous respect for what you are attempting to do, the bottom line is, I think, you're setting yourself up for a fall.

I think I've suggested this before, but I'll do it again. What about using the traditional poetic styles of Old English rather than this?

I don't know, it probably wouldn't work either, but at least you'd get out of Pope's  shadow.


Stephanos
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4 posted 2007-09-27 09:22 PM


Essorant,

I'm wondering, even among the ancient poets you laud so much, how many of them did not write in language contemporaneous with their own time periods?  This wonderfully "pure" language was at one time simply the way people spoke, and always quite different than the language from centuries before.


I'm trying to get you to see that using contemporary language may be a poetic tradition that you're ignoring, to the detriment of your own poetry.  Just something to think about.


Stephen    

oceanvu2
Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066
Santa Monica, California, USA
5 posted 2007-09-28 06:40 PM


Hi, Ess:

"They never, stealthy with their forces,
Drove off my oxen or my horses"   Aaaargh!

If these lines don't put a smile on your face, in or out of context, I don't know what might.

I find it interesting that Brad referred to your use of Alexander Pope-estry as I did in an entirely different thread.  If you are getting the same allusion twice, might there be something going on there?

RE: "No, obviously your critique is not offensive to me.  I expect such critique when I come here."

I'm not convinced that you always get "such critique" when you come here, though you seem to invite it with this particular ongoing piece.

I don't understand what you are trying to present. Is it meant to be some sort of didactic statement, or an engaging bit of poetry?

I think you've put an enormous amount of energy into this, but why not let it sit for a while, reset your jib, and try a different tack?  The fact that you essay something of import is impressive.  It's just that your chosen mode of execution doesn't seem to work.

Best, Jim


serenity blaze
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since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

6 posted 2007-09-28 10:18 PM


I just ...I am trying, too, but I just can't get into it--um, until my mind went in the gutter with:

"Greedy and wont to overween.
How should a Greek for thee be stirred"

and after that?

y'don't wanna know, yanno?

Ess, I am wanting, very much, to like your stuff, but you aren't giving a 21st century girl half a chance.

Um, "foshizzle?"



Grinch
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since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929
Whoville
7 posted 2007-09-29 06:04 AM


Ess,

I’d sit down if I were you.      

I guess you aren’t surprised that I agree with the general consensus; it’s definitely written in an archaic manner that makes it difficult to read, which is part of the reason I like it.

I better qualify that, this is never going to be the most popular poem posted in QA but it does have some redeeming qualities, you just have to tilt your head slightly to see them. Jim and Brad both picked up on how close this sounded to Pope, I agree with that too but, correct me if I’m wrong, that’s what you were aiming for, right?

I can see the problem people have when they see archaic language used, their eyes roll back in their head and they assume, normally quite rightly, that the one or two archaic devices are thrown in to make the poem sound poetic. I don’t believe this falls into that category, the language is consistent throughout, it’s a poem “in the style of” and should be judged as such, discounting it because it feels like it was written by Pope when that was your intention seems a little unfair. There’s an additional problem with taking that line, if it’s only judged because it sounds like Pope then it’s hard to criticize one simply based on style without criticising the original, if the style is bad that badness has to be shared by both.

Which brings me on to the question of whether even attempting to write in this style has or should have any merit, personally I think it does, as I said this is never going to be the most popular poem but then again Pope isn’t that popular either. The merit it has is that it was an attempt to capture a particular style and in that respect I think it succeeded, whether it succeeded in capturing a popular style or not is worth knowing but that doesn’t detract from the fact that you didn’t miss the mark by much.

Now back to why I like it, we’ve often disagreed about the use of obscurity, I like it and you say you don’t, but isn’t the use of archaic language a form of obscurity? There’s a story in your poem but it isn’t easy to wheedle out, the archaic language obscures it and demands that the reader has to work to get at it, it’s just another form of deciphering and deducing which are both things you say you don’t like. It’s that obscurity and the fact that I’ve got to work to get at the story that I like, which is a little ironic don’t you think?

Back to the poem, I agree that a more contemporary version is worth considering even if simply used as an exercise though personally I’d put it forward as a companion piece or even consider a merging of the two, a gently flow from contemporary to archaic to under line the drift back through time. That would also have the added benefit of easing the reader into the poem and avoiding the eye rolling reflex.

Off the top of my head I’d suggest looking at Auden’s The Shield of Achilles
http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/15547

It stretches the definition of contemporary but in the timescales we’re talking about I think it fits.

[This message has been edited by Grinch (09-29-2007 09:11 AM).]

Essorant
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since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
8 posted 2007-10-01 12:13 PM


Thanks all for commenting and sharing your thoughts.  


I will briefly explain why I used thou, thine/thy, thee.  


I. The tale and poem are ancient and they correspond more with the antiquity.

II.  They are more grammatically correct and distinct.  "You" and "your" literally are the plural accusative/dative and plural genitive forms.  That's why I used "your own joy" in line 19, meaning not just Agamemnon's joy, but Agamemnon's and his brother's.  

III. As mentioned before, I believe in preserving and restoring words, not locking them into the past.  And I will be even more inclined to do so in a more learned and literary setting such as this, where I expect people to have some familiarity with them, or if they don't be able to learn and appreciate them nevertheless.  Less familiar Native English words such as meed, beseen, anon, are no different in respect to being words people don't come across everyday than Latinish words such as obstreperous and tintinabulation.  As critics are always complaining about "cliche" they should have no problems with these kinds of words just because they are not everyday and common.  Good poetry usually isn't just "everyday and common".

IV. The Greek second person singular pronoun su is cognate with Latin tu and English thou.  Greek su, Latin tu, and English thou, are all the same word, just like mater, meter, and mother, just sounded and spelt differently under the rules of the different languages.  Likewise the -s in the Greek inflection as in phileis "thou lovest" is related to the s of the English -s of -st as in thou takest.  The t in English -est/st came about from the pronoun thou often being used right at the end of the word: takesthou.  Afterwords it became treated as part of the inflection itself: takest thou.  The same s is in Latin too as in amas "thou lovest", agis "thou leadest.


Brad
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since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
9 posted 2007-10-01 05:12 PM


quote:

At this, Pelides, frowning stern, replied:
“O tyrant, arm’d with insolence and pride!
Inglorious slave to interest, ever join’d
With fraud, unworthy of a royal mind!
What generous Greek, obedient to thy word,
Shall form an ambush, or shall lift the sword?
What cause have I to war at thy decree?
The distant Trojans never injured me;
To Phthia’s realms no hostile troops they led:
Safe in her vales my warlike coursers fed;
Far hence removed, the hoarse-resounding main,
And walls of rocks, secure my native reign,
Whose fruitful soil luxuriant harvests grace,
Rich in her fruits, and in her martial race.
Hither we sail’d, a voluntary throng,
To avenge a private, not a public wrong:
What else to Troy the assembled nations draws,
But thine, ungrateful, and thy brother’s cause?
Is this the pay our blood and toils deserve;
Disgraced and injured by the man we serve?
And darest thou threat to snatch my prize away,
Due to the deeds of many a dreadful day?
A prize as small, O tyrant! match’d with thine,
As thy own actions if compared to mine.
Thine in each conquest is the wealthy prey,
Though mine the sweat and danger of the day.
Some trivial present to my ships I bear:
Or barren praises pay the wounds of war.
But know, proud monarch, I’m thy slave no more;
My fleet shall waft me to Thessalia’s shore:
Left by Achilles on the Trojan plain,
What spoils, what conquests, shall Atrides gain?”

To this the king: “Fly, mighty warrior! fly;
Thy aid we need not, and thy threats defy.
There want not chiefs in such a cause to fight,
And Jove himself shall guard a monarch’s right.
Of all the kings (the god’s distinguish’d care)
To power superior none such hatred bear:
Strife and debate thy restless soul employ,
And wars and horrors are thy savage joy,
If thou hast strength, ’twas Heaven that strength bestow’d;
For know, vain man! thy valour is from God.
Haste, launch thy vessels, fly with speed away;
Rule thy own realms with arbitrary sway;
I heed thee not, but prize at equal rate
Thy short-lived friendship, and thy groundless hate.
Go, threat thy earth-born Myrmidons:—but here16
’Tis mine to threaten, prince, and thine to fear.
Know, if the god the beauteous dame demand,
My bark shall waft her to her native land;

But then prepare, imperious prince! prepare,
Fierce as thou art, to yield thy captive fair:
Even in thy tent I’ll seize the blooming prize,
Thy loved Briseis with the radiant eyes.
Hence shalt thou prove my might, and curse the hour
Thou stood’st a rival of imperial power;
And hence, to all our hosts it shall be known,
That kings are subject to the gods alone.”



from The Iliad translated by Alexander Pope.



Essorant
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since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
10 posted 2007-10-02 12:06 PM


John Dryden's and William Sotheby's are very admirable translations of Homer in iambic pentameter and rhyme as well.

John Dryden

William Sotheby
 


Essorant
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since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
11 posted 2007-10-02 05:39 PM


I wasn't sure why the Greek form of thou has an s-sound instead of a t-sound.  But I found this unlongsome explanation at Wikipedia:

"Many dialects, including Attic, changed t to s before i or u: Eutretis, Boeotian place name, Attic Eutresis; Doric tu, Attic-Ionic su, "thou."

This must be similar to the t of Greek democratia being pronounced by us as an s in democracy.



Brad
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since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
12 posted 2007-10-02 09:14 PM


Yes, they (those three) all wrote in heroic couplets -- unfortunately or fortunately, you didn't.

Why not?

Essorant
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since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
13 posted 2007-10-03 02:11 PM


Iambic pentameter tends to be more elaborate and periphrastic.  I wished to keep my translation a bit more simple and literal.  There are quite a few strange omissions and additions that Pope makes in his translation.  For example, he doesn't translate the epithet "Swift of foot" (podus okus) for Achilles in this passage, or refer to the oxen or cattle (bous) or to Achilles curved ships (neusi koronisin) or to Agamemnon's friends (hetaroisi) when Agamemnon says he will return her with his ship.  Homer uses the word hodos that more usually means "road" or "journey" also followed by elthemenai "to go", that we may believe is implying the journey of going to return Chryses' daughter, but Pope strangely uses ambush here instead. Achilles never literally calls Agamemnon a "tyrant" as in Pope's translation, but he calls him "dogface" (kynopa; kyon "dog" + ops "face") which is not literally found in Pope.  So many things are not literally in the text itself, such as "inglorious slave to interest, ever join’d/With fraud, unworthy of a royal mind!" "to avenge a private, not a public wrong "  "Is this the pay our blood and toils deserve; Disgraced and injured by the man we serve?" "I’m thy slave no more" "Or barren praises pay the wounds of war", "That kings are subject to the gods alone" etc.  His adjustments and additions are all fitting for the sentiments of the passage, but in some places, I feel they go a bit overboard, and using meter and style that is much more elaborate may give a poet over to that.  I think tetrameter limits the line and makes it less given over to elaboration and embellishment, keeping it a bit more direct and literal.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (10-03-2007 04:20 PM).]

oceanvu2
Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066
Santa Monica, California, USA
14 posted 2007-10-03 05:15 PM


Does anyone EVEN want to bring up Kazantzakis and Kakrides?  Does anyone remember?  Anyone care?  I for SURE can't remember who did the translation of their transliteration, and would rather admit it than wiki.  I do remember it was one fat mother of a book and I never got through it.

Best, Jim



oceanvu2
Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066
Santa Monica, California, USA
15 posted 2007-10-03 05:54 PM


Ess, re:

"The tale and poem are ancient and they correspond more with the antiquity."

I'm reminded of the old saw (pun intended) about forests and trees...

Try turning your proposition around and consider that the tale is entirely contemporary, which is pretty much why it has hung around.  The power of the work has never had anything to do with archaisms.

We have available today, as vast (or vaster, if you include the silly stuff) a vocabulary as Shakespeare, though it is seldom used. Vocabulary and linguistic antecedents have nothing to do with poetry.

"Common speech" doesn't need to be "common."  You've got a forty pound short version of the OED to pick from.

Best again,     Jim

oceanvu2
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since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066
Santa Monica, California, USA
16 posted 2007-10-04 06:29 PM


Hi Ess.  Well, I'm just going a bit off the wall here, so take this as three beers into a sixpack.

"Iambic pentameter tends to be more elaborate and periphrastic."

I don't think you're completely off your gourd, but this is one of the sillier statements I think I've read in a long time.

Iambic pentameter is the underlying rhythm of English speech, as in "I went to buy tomatoes but I thought (line break, if this were a poem) that most of them were overripe or green."  This might not be a perfect take on iambs, but as you read this referential sentence, does "complicated" or elaborate apply?  If I'm am not making myself clear, the above sentence is also iambic.

Iambs are not out dated, they are fundamental to the English pattern of plain speech.  

Tetrameter is easy.  It's the last refuge for scoundrels like me who literally "think" in four beat rhyme and occasionally write it down and post it.  Yeah, it's "accessible," and also silly.

Keep on truckin' Jim

  



Essorant
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since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
17 posted 2007-10-04 08:18 PM


I was speaking in the context of iambic pentameter as used in poetic translations of Homer.  When I meant elaborate, I meant poetically elaborate, as in the case of Pope.  I think the longer line drew out more the elaborate style he was practicing, while the shorter line helps keep mine a bit more concise and literal.  


  

Essorant
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Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
18 posted 2007-10-06 07:21 PM


Cont'd from: /pip/Forum28/HTML/002036.html#0


Then grief came over Peleus' son
And through his shaggy breast was run
His heart in counsel cut in two
Whereof he wondered what to do:
To draw his sword upon this thing
Break up the moot and kill the king,
Or such emotion sore in pain
And wrath endeavour to restrain.
But as he pondered o'er the part
From point to point in mind and heart
And gan to draw his sword in spite,
Athena came from heavens' height,
For whitearmed Hera sent her there
Holding for both much love and care.
She stood behind him unaware,
Then caught him by his yellow hair,
Making her presence be unknown
To everyone but him alone.
Therewith Achilles awe-begone
Turned round and recognized anon
Pallas Athena standing nigh
That terribly flashed forth her eye.
And with winged words he said in sum:
"Wherefore, O goddess, art thou come
Again, and catchest me unwares
Offspring of Zeus, that Aegus bears?
To see the hubris of this one,
Of Agamemnon, Atreus son
I tell thee for his pride shall fall
That he shall lose his life and all!"

Blueeye Athena thus bequath
"I came from high to quell thy wrath,
Indeed, if thou wilt lend thy ear,
For whitearmed Hera sent me here.
For in her heart her love is true
With equal care for both of you.
Come, stint from strife, the urge withstand,
Nor thus draw forth thy sword in hand.
With words reproach him as thou wilt.
And I declare to be fullfilled,
Betimes, to come as consequence
Thrice many as a recompense
For all his insolence and greed,
Shall be to thee a splendid meed."

Therewith Achilles, swift of foot
His answer to the goddess put:
"O goddess, It is only due
To heed the hest of both of you,
Better for all and every part,
Despite the raging of the heart.
For whosoe'er the gods obeys
They hear the more the pray'r he prays."



Essorant
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since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
19 posted 2007-11-20 10:58 PM



He then restrained his heavy hand
On silv'ry hilt, at her command,
Obeying thus Athena's word
And sheathed again his mighty sword.
The Goddess thencewards then upyode
To Aegis-holding Zeus' abode
Amidst the others of the sky
That dwell upon Olympus high.
But Peleus' son upheld his wrath
With mighty words, and thus bequath:
"Wineheavy, dog-eyed, it is clear
Thou hast the heart of but a deer!
Ne'er thou breastplatest thee to dare
With folk the battle's weight to bear,
Nor thou art one that ever sneaks
In ambush with the greatest Greeks,
For that, indeed, should seem to be
But plain destruction unto thee.
It is much better fitting pride,
Among the Grecian army wide
To seize the gifts of whiche'er Greek
Against thyself may dare to speak!
O folk-devouring king! alas!
That thou shouldst rule a worthless mass!
For otherwise, O Atreus son,
Thou hadst thy final outrage done.
But truly I will utter now
Upon this thing a mighty vow,
Yes, by this sceptre, this that ne'er
Nor leaves nor boughs again shall bear
Since in the mountains it was found
And from its native stub unbound,
Nor grow again with greenhood's mark,
For bronze has stripped its leaves and bark,
That now Greek sons as judges use
To keep the laws that come from Zeus,
A mighty oath is this for you:
Truly a longing, through and through,
Need for Achilles shall befall
The Grecian sons both one and all.
Engrossed in grief, unmighty then,
Ye shall be helpless to the men,
When many dying fall on land
By human-slaughterous Hector's hand.
Then shall ye rue within your breast
Of Greeks ye honoured not the best."
Thus did Achilles words resound
And then the sceptre hit the ground,
That gold-nailed, he had sorely cast,
And sat back down himself at last.
Yet Agamemnon, e'er with pride
Showed anger from the other side.
 

[This message has been edited by Essorant (11-22-2007 11:42 PM).]

Essorant
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since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
20 posted 2007-11-24 11:09 PM




But sweet-voiced, clear-voiced, Nestor, then,
Among them rose, of Pylian men,
And from whose tongue were speeches dear,
Sweeter than honey to the ear.
Two generations had run by
That he had seen both live and die,
Of mortals with him yore toforn
In holy Pylos bred and born.*
And now among the third, indeed,
He had his kingdom's care to lead.
He then spoke up with good intent,
And thus to them his wordhoard went:
"O shame! A great unmirth at hand
Arrives unto the Grecian land.
And truly Priam would enjoy,
His sons and all the rest of Troy,
To hear of you in strife e'ermore
The greatest Greeks of wit and war!
But listen now, for 'tis no lie,
Ye both are younger men than I.
Among the warriors I once knew
Were better men than both of you.
And they would not make light of me.
I have not seen nor shall I see
Warriors as Pirithous, again,
As Dryas, shepherd unto men,
As Caeneus or Exadius keen
As Polyphemus godlike seen,
As Aegeus' son, that Theseus hight,
A likeness to immortal might.
Mightiest of earthling men upbrought
Mightiest were they, and mightiest fought-
With mountainbeasts: halfman-halfhorse,
And conquored them with aweful force.
I came among their company,
For they themselves had summoned me,
From Pylos, from a distant part,
And fought according to my heart.
But none of nowdays' mortals might
Ever with them uphold a fight.
And they obediently had heard
My counsel and my careful word.
So may ye listen to me too,
For 'tis the better thing to do.
Though noble being, thou, indeed,
Nim not from him the maid, the meed,
Alotted first by Grecian sons,
But rightly let her be, at once.
And thou, Achilles, end this thing,
No longer strive against a king,
A sceptred king has higher place,
Given by Zeus a glorious grace.
Though strong, though thee a Goddess bore,
Stronger is he for ruling more.
And stint, O Atreus' son thy mood,
I beg, no longer with him feud
That great to Greeks, may none ignore,
Is bulwark 'gainst the evil war.


____________________________

* There is a note about this in P.A. Draper's Iliad Book I:

"Logically, men would have to be born before they were brought up.  Here, the verbs are reversed in a figure of speech called hysteron proteron (literally, "the latter the former"), which puts the more signifigant word first."



Essorant
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since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
21 posted 2007-12-10 11:21 AM


Lord Agamemnon then replied:
"Truly, old man, thou hast not lied,
And spokest all these things aright,
And yet this man, in mood and might,
All others thinks to overstand,
O'er all to rule with higher hand,
O'er all as king and all command.
Yet one, I think, will not obey.
And if the gods that be for aye,
Made him a spearman, hence upspring
Insults to utter at a king?"

But interrupting with ado
Divine Achilles voiced thereto:
"A coward clept and deemed to be,
Truly I were a nobody,
If by all things thou sayst, I bent,
Yielding to thee and thine intent.
Lay these commands on other men,
But lay them not on me again,
For I no longer, from this day,
Will bend for thee nor thee obey,
Another thing to thee I tell:
-And cast it in thy heart full well-
Nor will my hands to fight be laid
On thee nor others for the maid,
That thou away from me wilt lift,
What thou hadst given as a gift.
But of the other things I own
By swift black vessels, leave alone,
For there is nothing thou shalt bear
Away, against my will and care.
Come try, and men shall see it here-
Thy dark blood spilling on my spear!"

Having thus spoken and thus fought
With hostile words, with anger hot,
They rose and broke the gathering then
Beside the ships of Grecian men.
Achilles to his ships and tents
Went with Patroclus and his friends,
But Atreus' son sent forth a ship
With twenty rowers great of grip
A hecatomb therein conveyed,
And brought aboard the brightcheek maid.
Crafty Odysseus came thereto
As captain to command the crew.
With these on board and these in place
They sailed upon the watery ways.
But Agamemnon bade the crew
To purify themselves as due.
At once, they cleansed their company,
And flung their filth into the sea.
They then forthbore out of their boat
Many a spotless bull and goat
To offer Phoebus hecatombs.
Whereof the smoke and savory fumes
Ascended heaven windingly
Above the shore of stirring sea.
Thus was the army occupied,
But Agamemnon, e'er with pride,
Nothing forlet the strife begun
With which he threatened Peleus' son.
He called Talthybius to him then,
Eke Eurybates, trusty men,
His heralds twain, attendants true,
And thus bebidding spoke thereto:
"Go now unto Achilles tent,
By hand the faircheek Briseis hent
And if he nill give up the fair
Doubt not, that I myself shall dare,
And going there with more in all
Shall make the worse upon him fall!"
Therewith, they went upon their way
His stark bebidding to obey,
Mauger their wishing inwardly,
Along the shore of silvery sea,
Until Myrmidons' ships they found
And many tents thereby around.
Achilles sitting they could mark
Beside his tent and vessel dark.
He found no reason to rejoice,
Nor they the might to move their voice
For awe and honour of the king
Nor spoke a word nor asked a thing.
But in his heart Achilles knew
And speaking thus addressed these two:
"Welcome you both! Come nearer then
Heralds of Zeus and mortal men!
Nothing to me are ye to blame
But only he that has the name
Of Agamemnon, e'er with pride,
That sent you plainly for my bride!
Zeus-sprung Patroclus, come, convey
The maid to them, to take away.
Before the gods' divinity
And mortal men, these martyrs be,
Before, as well, that shameless king,
If e'er among the others spring,
A need for me, for which they call,
To ward off woes from one and all."

[This message has been edited by Essorant (12-12-2007 02:09 PM).]

oceanvu2
Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066
Santa Monica, California, USA
22 posted 2007-12-10 02:49 PM


My goodness, Essorant, I think the poem (because we're not supposed to make personal comments) is finding it's voice in this latest installment.  I don't mean it's been dumbed-down, but a lot of the anxiousness or to my mind, overwrought imagery of the beginning of the poem seems to have been shed in favor of telling the story.

Then you throw in a clinker like:

"The which thou wilt from-me-wards lift
What whilom gavest as a gift."

I know you do this purposefully, but I'll be darned if I can figure out to what end.  It may indeed by syntactically and etymologically correct, but what does it add?  It's pretty close to a tongue twister when read out loud.

Really, I think this is getting "better," poetically as it goes along.  I've never questioned your skills as a wordsmith, it's just this particular piece that has given me fits in the past.

Just me yappin', but I yap with integrity.

Best, Jim  

The edit:  Also, the occasional enjambment works very well and adds a welcome (here) sense of a flowing tale.

Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
23 posted 2007-12-11 02:07 AM


Hi Jim

Thanks very much.  I appreciate your critical attention.

"I know you do this purposefully, but I'll be darned if I can figure out to what end.  It may indeed by syntactically and etymologically correct, but what does it add?  It's pretty close to a tongue twister when read out loud."

I thought "from-me-wards" was a bit more crafty.  But I see what you mean, and how the line may sound like a tonguetwister.

How about:

That thou away from me wilt lift,
What thou hadst given as a gift.


"The edit:  Also, the occasional enjambment works very well and adds a welcome (here) sense of a flowing tale."

I think that is true.  I usually minimize enjambment, but sometimes there are poetic positions where it comes in handy and works very well.


oceanvu2
Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066
Santa Monica, California, USA
24 posted 2007-12-11 02:12 PM


Hi Essorant!  For what it's worth, I thing the revision of the two lines keeps the sense and reads more readily.

I apologize for using the words "getting better" in my post.  It sounds, in retrospect, almost demeaning, which was not my intent.  "Becoming more powerful" might be closer to what I meant.

Best, Jim

jbouder
Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash
25 posted 2007-12-12 05:04 PM


Ess:

Have you considered longer lines or, perhaps, allowing your rhymes to fall mid-phrase or mid-sentence?  Granted, this can be very difficult, but sometimes wrestling the control of the line from the rhyme is worth it.  For me, this would slow the pace of the reading and make the read more enjoyable.  I think the real challenge here is to make the rhyme incidental to the story.

I think what you are trying to do is admirable, and I love the stories you are retelling.  Very ambitious.

I've been on an ancient Greek kick lately so, in spite of my crits, I enjoyed your perspective on the story.

Jim

Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
26 posted 2007-12-13 03:00 PM


Jim & Jim

Thanks for your kind comments.

I managed to revise the foresaid line before the editing time ended.

As mentioned earlier I think longer lines tend to end up with more embellishment and are not as concise, at least for translating.  That is not always a bad thing if it is done well.  But shorter and more concise lines more my own "seat" of experience for metrical writing and I tend to use shorter Native English words instead of (usually) longer Latinish or Greekish English words as well ("fair" instead of "beautiful", "king" instead of "monarch",  "have" or "hold" instead of possess, etc) including incorporating some Ednew English, in the spirit of restoring many Native English words.  



Bob K
Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208

27 posted 2008-01-09 04:18 PM


Dear Essorant,

         I'm glad to see somebody taking a solid shot at rhyming tetrameter couplets.  I see folks seem to peg you as a Pope person but I see you more as somebody who knows their Marvell and their Prior, their Gray, their Collins and their Cowper.  Pope is much more strapped and stropped.  His lines are all so end-stopped and his progressions are so much more like Lincoln Logs, with each couplet not only a metrical unit, but a unit of the argumentum, while you've managed something much more flexible and interesting (to me) here.  I like the way you move your ceseauras slightly within your lines to keep the flow going.

     The intrusion of Greek names and mythic references, which reads with difficulty today, is an artifact of history
and tough for anybody to work around; there they are in the text, and it's a problem that must be dealt with by the translator.  Just putting them out there, as you do, seems as good a solution as any.  What I suspect is more difficult is to get the sense that the events of the Illiad, while they may have happened "a while ago," were still events that had a certain intimacy to them, in a world that was not all that different, to people whose great great great grandchildren you might talk to today if you made it in to the Agora.  How to get that across while using deliberately archaic diction seems to be, for me, an insurmountable problem, and one that you show extraordinary courage in merely attempting to deal with.  Personally, I don't believe there is a great solution.

     Probably the major strength I see here is that of ambition; you've picked a project that's a worthy one for the most serious of writers and you've done your very best to equip yourself to tackle it.  Your intention is serious as a good blade, and you have courage most of us lack.  You have enormous courage.

     You are not, however, paying attention to your audience, who at this point, flawed, shakey and imperfect as they (we, actually) are, are your closest allies.  You make very fine, very densely reasoned arguments for the choices you make.  The conclusions you draw from these incredibly well researched arguments may be correct or not.  You miss the point.

     You believe people should find it acceptable to deal with oorts and pelf and meads and thees and the historical derivations of the second person singular through Greek and Latin and English, and for all  I know the use of em as a dual mode of the third person singular in old english, and how it's found its way into modern English mistakenly as a contraction for "them."  If I exagerate, and I do,certainly, to some extent for a laugh, you should take a look and compile a list yourself of the demands you levy on your readers, and tally it up.  

     Consider the bargain any writer makes with readers.  You have compiled your list of demands.  Include those I suggest that seem at least marginally reasonable, if indeed there are any.  I submit to you that in return for granting those demands, you must supply your readers with periods of bliss equal to the effort.  Bliss; not excuses.  

     If the feedback I read here is honest, you actually do come through sometimes.  But the people who are most inclined to give you your most generous reading of the audiences available to you now are telling you that you aren't offering them a rich enough return on their time and attention because of a very specific set of factors, inversions, archaic useage and putting theory ahead of practice, if I read the feedback correctly.

     My understanding of the learned and informative responses you offer, is that they have the effect of telling your readers that they aren't having or shouldn't be having the experience or discomfort or disquiet they are having.  You even seem to have good reasons that they're having fun they don't know they're having yet.

     How one manages to get into such a battle about a translation is beyond me.  I simply wish it weren't so.

     I would not wish you to stop or change what you are doing, however.  If a person is so solidly committed to a project as you are to this one, to ask what you're doing wrong is the wrong question.  On some level, you're aware of all the conflict, you have some sense what it's about and have decided that there's something you need to learn about technique and style here that you haven't been able to put into words that makes the whole corn storm worth it.

     I would suggest you continue to defend you very considerable work here as staunchly as you have so far.
It deserves it; whatever its flaws, it really is an amazing piece, simply amazing.  My objections are the same as most other folks, but my admiration is extreme.  With whatever energy you have left over, if there is any, you might ask yourself what's the thing you're trying to accomplish for yourself by translating The Illiad in this
jaw-dropping way.  I don't mean for MANKIND. or THEORY or any of the other abstractions, I mean in terms of technique and skill and sheer poetic mightiness.  I don't know you need to tell anybody, but for yourself it might be good to get clear aside from all this back and forth.
I mean, after all, we're all in this for the money, aren't we?

     So, if not for the dough, sometimes it helps to know the anmswer to the question:  Poetry, What have you done for me recently?

     Thanks for the chance to respond to these wonderful couplets, and to feel the marvelous and forceful push of the energy behind them.  With great pleasure, BobK.    

Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
28 posted 2008-01-13 01:07 AM


Bob,

Thanks very much.  I appreciate your support.  The only thing I disagree with is that suggestion that using a few less common English words (what you and others call "archaic diction") is a problem.  Poetry includes using some words that are not "everday" and "common", and I don't think I went to any excess here, and also tried to show further context for them.  If people don't know the meaning of a word they may certainly look it up in the dictionary or if they may not find it in their dictionary, ask about it and I will be full willing to give as much an explanation as possible.


Bob K
Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208

29 posted 2008-01-13 11:26 PM


Dear Essorant,

         Pay attention to the text and your translation; that's enough and more than enough work for anybody.  Try to figure out what you need from the heroics of the task and incorporate it into your skill set.  There's no short cut, even a nice diverting and realistic quarrel with other people.  You know the argument in advance, what you'll say, what they'll say, don't you?  

     As for the last bit in your note about being willing to explain your language to people; as a poet, how do you do that?  New work is pretty exhausting and the old stuff—for me at least—pulls my energy away from it.  You're a poet, not a human OED.  You need your time to write.

     Also, Essorant, I think the stuff really does stand on its own, despite your willingness to explain some of its complexities to people who don't understand.  It is archaic, the vocabulary is odd, and some people do have difficulty.  It's simply that the audience for the stuff is more specialized than I think you'd hoped for.  This translation is still very fine stuff indeed, and highly original.  Best wishes, BobK.
    

Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
30 posted 2008-01-15 03:25 AM


Thanks again Bob.

I thought I would try to amuse the audience for a while, and set up a table of the Greek Letters and approximately how they were pronounced in Homer, to get people to look at and pronounce some ancient words that Homer used long long before English came about, let alone archaic English such as "thou" "meed" and "yode".  This is very simple.  All you need to do is look at the letters in the table and then pronounce the words with those sounds.





Letters                        Vowel-pairs

Alpha     Α  |  α     as a in father      αι  as ai in aisle
Beta      Β  |  β     as b in better      αυ  as ow in bow
Gamma     Γ  |  γ     as g in good        ει  as ei in eight
Delta     Δ  |  δ     as d in deed        ευ  as eu in feud
Epsilon   Ε  |  ε     as e in ever        οι  as oi in oil
Zeta      Ζ  |  ζ     as z in zoo         ου  as oo in moon
Eta       Η  |  η     as ey in hey        υι  as ui in suite
Theta     Θ  |  θ     as th in thought    
Iota      Ι  |  ι     as i in physique
Kappa     Κ  |  κ     as k in king
Lambda    Λ  |  λ     as l in love
Mu        Μ  |  μ     as m in mother
Nu        Ν  |  ν     as n in nest
Xi        Ξ  |  ξ     as x in fix
Omicron   Ο  |  ο     as o in not
Pi        Π  |  π     as p in pick
Rho       Ρ  |  ρ     as r in rich
Sigma     Σ  |  σ, ς  as s in sun
Tau       Τ  |  τ     as t in take
Upsilon   Υ  |  υ     as u in dune
Phi       Φ  |  φ     as ph in phone
Chi       Χ  |  χ     as ch in loch
Psi       Ψ  |  ψ     as ps in hips
Omega     Ω  |  ω     as o in know    


Notes:

* The ς form of sigma is used only at the end of words.

E-sounds and O-sounds:

Both ε and η are e-sounds, ε is the short e and η is the long e.   Likewise ο is the short (micron) o, and ω is the long  (mega) o.

The "h"-sound:

When the mark ` shows up before a vowel at the beginning of a word it indicates an "h"-sound.  In Greek this is called "rough breathing".
Therefore `Ομηρος "Homer" is pronounced "Homayros"

The "ng"-sound:

When γ is followed by γ, κ, or χ it has the "ng"-sound.   Therefore αγγελος "messanger" is pronounced "angelos"





Here are a few simple words to begin with.  The forms in the brackets don't indicate the Greek pronunciation, but indicate how they  may be represented with similar English letters.

φωνη (phone) "voice"

ψυχη (psyche)  "soul"

`υπερ (hyper) "over"

`Ηρως (heros) "hero"

μουσα (musa) "muse"


Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
31 posted 2008-01-15 01:19 PM


Try a few more familiar ones:


κυκλωψ (cyclops) "cyclops"

νεκταρ (nectar) "drink of the gods"

νυμφη (nymphe) "bride"

πυρη (pyre) "pyre"

δαιμων (demon) "divinity"

κοσμος (cosmos) "world"

ουρανος (uranus) "heaven"

Ολυμπος (Olympus) "Olympus"

Ζευς (Zeus) "Zeus"


Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
32 posted 2008-03-14 07:27 PM


Cont'd from: /pip/Forum28/HTML/002036.html#21

He rages in a ruinous mind,
Nor looks both forward and behind,
That Greeks beside the ships with life
May safely fight for him in strife."
Patroclus then his friend obeyed,
The faircheek Briseis outconveyed,
Mauger her heart, into their grips
To bear away beside the ships.
Achilles, then, burst into tears.
He took his presence from his peers,
Sat down at shore, by waves of gray,
And looking o'er the winedark way,
With outstraight hands, his mother dear
He bade with earnest prayer to hear:
"O mother since thou kindledst me
To life too full of brevity,
Olympus' thund'rer ought to give
Honour to me the while I live!
But now no worthing has he done
For widecommanding Atreus' son
Dishonours me with haughty deed,
That hent away and holds my meed"
His mother by her old man's side
Harkened his prayer and upwards hied,
From the gray sea like mist uplept,
And sitting down whereas he wept
Her son with softly hand caressed,
And called his name and him addressed:
"Wherefore, in weeping so, my son,
What sore is come in heart, what done?
Declare, and nothing hide thy woe
Speak out, that both of us may know"


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