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Grinch
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Whoville

0 posted 2007-09-23 11:27 AM



Cribbed in the ocean of a mothered world;
Bound by the belly and the tide,
The angel counts the seconds on the throw of cells
Unhindered by the curse of being blind.

Curled in the crooking of his shepherdess;
Soothed by the wooing and the heat,
The page forms unwritten turning sap to flesh
And caul to quick, all kicking in his haste.

Suddenly the exit and the entrance
Two strangers tied but yet to meet
In tender clutches smiles unleash the chance to dream
All savoured in the hunt for breath and breast.

Soft swaddled kisses couched with pure relief
All counts found true of pigs and pokes.
The gods of Adam, wrapped within their heathen pride,
Both tickled by the giving and the gift.


© Copyright 2007 Grinch - All Rights Reserved
moonbeam
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1 posted 2007-09-23 05:24 PM


Pure DT.

Pure bliss.

Poor Ess.


Brad
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2 posted 2007-09-26 05:43 PM


Quckly, let me just say thanks.

I throughly enjoyed this piece, but I'm still a little confused about three things:

Angels.

The gods of Adam.

Both.

Obviously, I suspect I'm missing something here as those three points seem, somehow, connected.

I'll give it another shot if I have time.


chopsticks
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since 2007-10-02
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3 posted 2007-10-04 10:13 AM


I like your poem.

One of the things I was not sure of was, “ The Gods of Adam ?”  The Adam I know only had one God.

How does that saying go: “ I’ll fight to my death for your right to give Adam more than one god.”

oceanvu2
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since 2007-02-24
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Santa Monica, California, USA
4 posted 2007-10-04 01:38 PM


My Goodness!  Subtle and joyful at the same time?  Total shock and AWE!  
Someone should bump this up about once every seven days to make sure everyone dropping in reads it.

I thought "angel" referred to the unborn child, and the "gods of Adam" to the tickled parents.  If I don't have it quite right, it certainly doesn't hurt anything.

"All counts found true of pigs and pokes" is
absolutely grand.  This line by itself is one of the reasons people read poetry, and why it affects us.  In an alternate universe, some looney tune would would write a paper on it, but it's all right there in front of one's face.

Good job!   Jim

Grinch
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Whoville
5 posted 2007-10-04 02:23 PM


quote:
The Adam I know only had one God.


I guess that depends on who created Adam.

On a simple level if you replace ‘gods’ with ‘parents’ and ‘Adam’ with ‘Tom’ the meaning should become clear.

Brad

Then again you could stick to the biblical Adam and replace ‘gods’ with creators and end up with an atheistic inference that man created Adam and God so in that sense all men are gods.



Sorry Brad, I gave you a really obscure one but the circumstances seemed apt, I’m surprised you got as much as you did.

Oh look! A clue.




"We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."

Richard Dawkins

chopsticks
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6 posted 2007-10-04 03:28 PM


“I guess that depends on who created Adam”

I see what you mean. I wondered why you didn’t capitalize god. The line would not have worked if you had capitalized god. I was to hung up on the gods of Adam.

"Then again you could stick to the biblical Adam and replace ‘gods’ with creators and end up with an atheistic inference that man created Adam and God so in that sense all men are gods."

I don't see what you mean.

[This message has been edited by chopsticks (10-04-2007 06:25 PM).]

Grinch
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Whoville
7 posted 2007-10-04 07:37 PM



quote:
I don't see what you mean.


Chopsticks,

I wouldn’t worry too much, Brad is looking for another interpretation, a hidden meaning or an obscured reference above and beyond the story of a child’s birth, and I was just nudging him in the right direction.

Personally I’d ignore any hidden meanings, as I said this one is so deep even I have trouble ferreting it out so it’s probably so obscure that it’s redundant.

Jim,

Glad you didn’t go too over the top with the compliment.

BTW you had the parent child thing spot on.


Brad
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8 posted 2007-10-04 08:53 PM


Got it!

Unless the baby is a girl.

oceanvu2
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Santa Monica, California, USA
9 posted 2007-10-04 10:31 PM


Hi Grinch.  Moonbeam can do it in a couple of words. I just am thrilled to find something to get excited about, so I tend to gush, the opportunities being relatively rare.

Really really could do an exegis on this poem and your use of simple (hah!) langauge to express poetic/human complexities. I could do paragraphs on the one line I singled out, nursery rhymes, ten fingers, two eyes and a nose.  But if it doesn't smack anyone right off the bat, it ain't gonna smack them later.

Same for the rest of it.

Jim, being subdued.  

Brad
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10 posted 2007-10-04 10:42 PM


Feeling snubbed (or stubbed)here.

I didn't get it right away, but it was precisely the direction that you allude to (nursery rhymes, toes, fingers etc.) that led me to my smack.

Sunshine
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Listening to every heart
11 posted 2007-10-05 12:53 PM


I'm not much for CA, Grinch,
but you've got my vote as to this being a




Grinch
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Whoville
12 posted 2007-10-05 01:27 PM



Sunshine,

Thanks for reading and your kind reply.

quote:
I didn't get it right away, but it was precisely the direction that you allude to (nursery rhymes, toes, fingers etc.) that led me to my smack.


Wait until the alternate meaning hits you Brad.

Has anyone got any suggestions how this can be improved, are there any parts that need work or clarification perhaps?

I’d welcome any comments including those of a negative nature as long as they’re constructive.


serenity blaze
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13 posted 2007-10-05 01:31 PM


Now y'see? I know this is a delicious read, but honestly I find all of your work scrumptiously elegant.

What I would like (and I think it would be an education for me and possibly others) is for Jim to explain WHY this is better.

(It's not that I disagree--I came to C/A precisely because I envy this ability.)

Jim? You wanna take this on?

And Grinch...you are an artiste.


oceanvu2
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Santa Monica, California, USA
14 posted 2007-10-05 08:20 PM



CELEBRATING BIRTHDAY


Serenity mentions something to the effect that she “gets” that this poem is a good one, but doesn’t understand exactly why it’s a great one.

OK, at the risk of eliciting groans,  I offer up two short quotes from the grand old scoundrel, Werner Erhardt:

1.  Understanding is the booby prize.

2.  It’s easiest to ride the horse in the direction it is going.

So, Merry Pipsters, if anyone is here just because they like to read the critiques, STOP NOW and go back and read the poem.  Print it out.  Tack it on your wall.  Whatever.  If you still don’t get it, if there is no AHA moment for you, we’ll hobble on towards second place, the “booby prize.”

On the surface, the poem is “about” the physical realities of gestation, birth, parental love, joy, relief, happiness, and awe that all is well.  This is pretty hard to miss.

In another thread, Brad said, for him, “Stopping By the Woods On A Snowy Evening” was “about” a guy stopping by the woods on a snowy evening.  Well, it is.  (Except it isn’t.)  Brad knows this. too,

Similarly, grinch says this about “Birthday:“  “Personally I’d ignore any hidden meanings, as I said this one is so deep even I have trouble ferreting it out so it’s probably so obscure that it’s redundant.”  Well, it is.  (Except it isn’t.)  Redactive, maybe, redundant, no.  Obscure, no. And grinch knows this too.

What grinch has given us is an extended metaphor on the act of artistic creation, and I’m guessing, because grinch couches this in a poem as opposed to a painting, grinch  is referencing the relationship between a poet and a poem.  Substitute “poem” for angel and “poet” for parent’s, and you’ve basically got it.  And grinch gives us specific notice that this is what he is talking about in metaphor.  (It’s in stanza two.)

OK, so there are lots of poems about poets writing poetry (and poets looking at trees.)  So what makes this one (and that one) special?

There are at least two ways to “critique” a poem.  One involves technical analysis.  Even if this might useful when a poem is technically flawed, it lies in the realm of “criticism” as opposed to the realm of “poetics.”  I think it is working toward the “booby prize,” but other serious folk get off on it.  Whatever.

For this discussion, let’s just say the the meter is basically iambic and the whole poem is so technically astute that the most one could quibble with is the odd word or comma, and move on to the interesting bits.

The second way of critiquing a poem is to look at the language and music. This is like “riding the horse in the direction it is already going.”  Hang on for “GRINCH’S RIDE” not mine  


“Cribbed in the ocean of a mothered world;
Bound by the belly and the tide,
The angel counts the seconds on the throw of cells
Unhindered by the curse of being blind.”

       One of the first things you might notice is that these words have never been put together in this way before.  We’re looking at something original.  Heavy gravy, that!

     Of all the possible ways to say “enclosed,” why does grinch choose “Cribbed?”  One, because grinch is a poet, and did.  Two, because the range of language is available.  Three, because it resonates on the literal and metaphorical levels the poem undertakes.  It’s a word that “counts!”  From this first word, grinch tells us that we are in the presence of something special, and confirms it with “bound by the belly and the tide.”  

     Grinch could have said “constricted by abdominal muscles and awash in amniotic fluid,” but chose not to.  Good choice!  Similarly, grinch could have said “a being, (or poem) grows from blastocyst to fetus unaware of it’s own existence.”  But didn’t.  Good choice!

     Pretty soon, you start to notice that none of this is happening by accident.

“Curled in the crooking of his shepherdess;
Soothed by the wooing and the heat,
The page forms unwritten turning sap to flesh
And caul to quick, all kicking in his haste.”

     Look at “Curled, crooking, shepherdess.”  The three words work perfectly together as poetic allusion.  What does a shepherdess’ crook look like?  How does “soothed” fit the the music, how do “soothed” and wooing work together?  You should be hearing grinch’s voice by now.

     “The page” is the clue that something might be going on here on another level.

     “And caul to quick, all kicking in his haste.”  This is the music of a true poet.  Who else might notice the relationship of “caul to quick?”  What does “caul” mean?  What does “quick” mean?  It ain’t for the casual reader.  To keep the metaphor going, as it does,  substitute “poem” for his.


     “Suddenly the exit” (from the womb and mind)  and the entrance, (physical emergence into the “world”)
     “Two strangers tied but yet to meet  (by the umbilical cord of mother/child, poet/poem, inextricably bound, but not yet knowing each other)

“In tender clutches smiles unleash the chance to dream
All savoured in the hunt for breath and breast.”

     Well, OK, I don’t “get” these two lines either, except on the literal level.  They might be the odd knot in a Persian rug, just to keep the gods from spittin’ on ol’ Grinch.  They certainly apply to at least one level of the poem.

“Soft swaddled kisses couched with pure relief
All counts found true of pigs and pokes.
The gods of Adam, wrapped within their heathen pride,
Both tickled by the giving and the gift”

     This final stanza is pure poetic song.  It contains my favorite line:  “All counts found true of pigs and pokes.”  What does it allude to?  For starters, it’s “ten little piggies went to market,” the nursery rhyme.  For follower’s,  it’s “ten fingers, ten toes, two eyes and a nose,”  and other perfect poke-y parts. For followers-on, it’s “a pig in a poke.”

     When one buys a “pig in a poke” you don’t know what you’re getting.  That’s the meaning of the phrase.  OK, so there is great relief and heathen (hubristic?) pride in parents when a healthy child is born.   Grinch is suggesting, in my arrogant opinion, that the same is “true” metaphorically, when a poet/artist gives birth to some amazing thing on paper.  You get tickled when you do it well, and just as tickled when you put it out in the world.  And all you have is hints as to what it is, and where it came from.  


     So, this is just me yappin’.  If anyone could teach anyone else how to be a great poet, we’d have a lot more great poets.  Bottom line is, you can practice and practice, but if you ain’t got the chops, you’re never going to sing like Mimi Ripperton.  Might as well sing like yourself!

     Grinch got the chops.

Best, Jim

serenity blaze
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15 posted 2007-10-05 08:44 PM


Thank you Jim, for the elaboration, which is all I was asking for--I wasn't questioning your judgement.

I need help to open up my poetic eye, and if I appear to be ignorant it is because I am.

Trust though, that if I have a question I won't be daunted from asking--no matter which side of the blade is cutting edge.

I appreciate your time, very much.

Thanks again.

Brad
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16 posted 2007-10-05 10:24 PM


Jim,

I agree with most of that.

serenity blaze
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17 posted 2007-10-06 04:42 AM


I'd like an elaboration of Brad's applause of Jim's elaboration!

Seriously, I felt a bit disrespected in this forum and I am frankly surprised and disappointed.

(I read your explanation Jim, and frankly, I heard the sarcastic tones of like...Ian Anderson in it--melodic and intriguing, but a distraction from my question, at best. Or least. And this, from a lady who happens to love you, too.)

Brad, your total underwhelming emphasis of "yeah, me too?" totally underwhelmed me.(Okay, so I paraphrased, but does it matter?)

The only one who seemed to "get" my question (see how sarcasm translates through quote marks, Jim?) was the author!

Grinch--all of your work, and I've followed you around a while--it's like somebody throws diamonds on red velvet. Jim picks one out and said it's the million dollar diamond. I just want you to know that I know this is sparkle-golden, k? That was never the question.

I just wanted to know why...because I think every one of your poems is brilliantly cut and polished.

And that does not make me a cheap date-- --

!

Grinch
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Whoville
18 posted 2007-10-06 06:30 AM



Karen,

I think Jim answered the question, so did Moonbeam and Brad, in fact anyone who replied with positive feedback answered the question including yourself – they liked the poem.

But why is this any better than any of my other stuff?

Because it’s a subjective choice, I wrote a reply in another thread that hints at this when I said, “I did my bit, I wrote it; it’s up to you what you read into it.”. On the face of it that sounds a little derogatory and dismissive, it wasn’t meant that way. I did literally mean that once a poem is written and presented to a reader it’s down to the reader to interpret the content and rate the value they ascribe to the poem.

Most people would agree with that, the only contentious issue is that I believe that the reader’s interpretation is the one that matters most, and by that I mean any and every reader and any and every interpretation, including those that don’t match the authors original intent. I should explain that a little before I get flooded by irate emails from poets defending the rights of their poems to be exactly what they intended them to be in the first place.

I once wrote a poem that seemed to slam the critical analysis of poems and the critics themselves, it also had underlying religious references and as an added twist I tried to make it ambiguous as to whether the speaker, the critics or the poet was at fault. All that depended on the reader’s interpretation; one reader emailed me to say that my poem was the best poem about Jesus he’d ever read. I could have explained that that wasn’t what the poem was about, I could have pointed out that ‘best poem about Jesus’ was probably a gross exaggeration but who the heck am I to decide what people get out of my stuff, I just write it the evaluation is up to them.

Jim has offered his interpretation of this poem, and a very good one it is too, though it may or may not be the one I had in my head when I wrote it but that doesn’t really matter. That’s probably where Jim and I disagree, if someone reads this and thinks, “oh, it’s a poem about child birth” I don’t think they deserve a booby prize. I’d rather think they got it spot on, it is a poem about child birth if that’s what you read it as, “it’s up to you what you read into it”.

There are, of course, objective reasons why a poem is deemed ‘good’; there are things like meter, cadence and rhyme. Jim pointed out that this is mostly iambic, it probably is due to the fact that English predominately follows that pattern, I honestly haven’t scanned this, mainly because it was written as a syllabic form so meter is a bit superfluous. Saying that it’s been through several re-writes and I haven’t checked the syllabic count lately either so that’s probably out too, I’m not going to either because I think it sounds ok as it is and if that means an extra syllable here and there I can live with that.

As far as Brad’s reply goes I read it as a comma or a pause for thought, hopefully if he gets time he’ll offer his interpretation, which may or may not be the same as mine but will be equally as valid.

I disagree fairly strongly about the my ‘stuff being diamonds’ part Karen, but then again that’s probably no surprise to you although what may be a surprise is that I rate some better than others and by a fairly long mark. I write two types of poems, one type is reeled off in a couple of minutes and posted just to confirm I’m still here, I’d liken that to whistling, it gives me something to do but it doesn’t matter how good it is. The second type is the serious stuff, of which there are only a handful, they’re the ones I re-write, the ones I hone and take care to select every single word, I don’t particularly think they’re very good but I do value them higher than the first type.

This is one of the second type in case you’re wondering.

Jim,

I really do appreciate the time you’ve taken over this, your interpretation of both meanings was well thought out and explained and I can see exactly where you’re coming from.


serenity blaze
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19 posted 2007-10-06 02:20 PM


Thank you Grinch, especially for resisting the urge to laugh at me further for my diamonds analogy. But it's not going to change my opinion of your work.

It's all gold. And I also see the wisdom of something you said to me early on too--I'm never going to "get" metrics. And yes, I am a bit befuddled as to why I have to be beat with a metronome when I dismiss something that everyone keeps assuring me has no steadfast rule.

I came here because I wanted to write like you.

I'll leave here knowing I can't.

And btw? Congratulations on a superior piece of work. (In case you missed it--I do love this poem, and if you are curious as to my first reaction--it was amazement that a man could so aptly describe what I related to as pregnancy.)

And yes, I can mean that literally, but if any of you know me by now, I am very into layered metaphor--I "get" it.

I do not need to tack your poem on the wall, because this one will stay with me just as sure as the memory of feeling my son's first kick in my womb.

It's that good, lovie.

Thank you all for your patience.

Grinch
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Posts 2929
Whoville
20 posted 2007-10-06 02:59 PM


Karen,

I’ve absolutely no doubt that you could ‘get’ metrics, I just can’t for the life of me work out why you’d want to, I’ve said so before and I’ll say it again I could show you how to write like I do in a week but it’d take me years to write like you.

Want to know why? Forms of any kind whether they contain rhyme or not act as a template or scaffold, all the author has to do is manipulate the words to fit whereas you create stuff out of thin air, no template no scaffold it just flows (or it seems to).

quote:
I came here because I wanted to write like you.


Then you’ll have to forget about meter, because that’s what I do, you’ll have to count syllables, because that’s what I do and you’ll need to concentrate on the sounds of the words, because that’s what I do.

Oh, and you’ll have to get used to producing some pretty bad poetry because.. you get the idea.  

quote:
I'll leave here knowing I can't.


Twaddle, I doubt you’ve ever given up and walked away from anything you really wanted.

Pick a word or phrase Serenity Blaze, any word or phrase you like that takes your fancy, email it to me and I’ll show you how easy it is write a bad poem around it.. I mean write a poem and make it sound like it came from my own coarse lips.

I’ll describe step by step how I did it in plain English and I guarantee you’ll be creating bad poetry by the bucketful, just like me, by this time next week.



serenity blaze
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21 posted 2007-10-06 03:11 PM


The only thing that confuses me about you is how you can not know how truly good you are. I'm not blowing air up yer butt--I've been reading you for years and I know how hard it is to do what you do--and the very fact that you make it look easy enough for me to want to attempt it is a testimony to your ability.

Now stop knocking yourself and take your bow, you! And I might add, don't let the lack of replies discourage you from posting in other forums. I happen to know someone who was beating her desk and yelling out loud in appreciative glee just reading you--okay? (And btw, she agrees with me that your gold is Grinch-standard.)

You are a joy. So stop smacking you.

OH.

and heh--check your email. I think I'm intrigued by your offer.

oceanvu2
Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066
Santa Monica, California, USA
22 posted 2007-10-06 04:14 PM


Whistling in the dark:

Rules
come from schools.
They're not for enjoyment,
Just guaranteed employment.

(Can't help myself, and sometimes I don't like me either)

Karen -- I made a mistake in my casual use of the word "you" in my long post here.  It's definitely a generic, conversational "you" not YOU.  It's just how I speak, which can work better in person than on the page, and I should kow better.  I'd add one of those smilies that kiss and make up but I don't know how to. (smooching smiley)!

grinch -- Agreeing:  In  another thread, I tried suggesting to Ess that the iambic rhythm is fundamental to English speech.  It can be tweaked, but it doesn't need to be tortured.

         Still agreeing:  In a thread in this forum, "Chasing Snow Leopards..." I tried to explain how I put one of my poems together. What I couldn't explain was why it was funny.

ALL -- in my long post above, the crack about not being able to sing like Mimi Ripperton WAS gratuitous sarcasm, and should have been left out.

Still hazy after all these years... Jim   

serenity blaze
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23 posted 2007-10-06 04:31 PM


I'm just sorry I annoyed you Jim.

Wasn't my intent.

So...I took a zanax. *shrug*

I think you guys are safe for a while.  

OH.

and?

Brad
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since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
24 posted 2007-10-06 06:44 PM


There is a lot to talk about here. Try as I might, I don't think I can put it in one post.

So I'm not going to. Nor am I going to repeat what Jim said.

quote:
Cribbed in the ocean of a mothered world;


I have no idea why that semi-colon is there.

quote:
Bound by the belly and the tide,


So far, so good, but what do we do with that tide? We have the tide of the oceans, of course. But tide also means a critical period or event. So this makes sense both metaphorically and literally. Perhaps, that's the wrong way to phrase it. It makes sense in terms of science and the, so I am told, only  apparent relationship between menstrual cycles and the moon.

quote:
The angel counts the seconds on the throw of cells


This one tripped me up at first. To be honest, it's still a little tricky. We have an 'angel' who 'counts' the seconds and is 'unhindered'.

Now, we can see the 'angel' as an infant or or foetus as in "my little angel", but infants can't count, can they? This bothered me and my solution is twofold:

'Angel' here means unborn soul. In this sense, the unborn soul is indeed 'counting' the seconds on the 'throw' (direction, dice, chance etc.) and is 'unhindered' and or released to our world through that throw.

This makes me think about CS Lewis and that particularly maddening part at the end of "The Great Divorce". The rest of the poem certainly gives a kind of foundation to this reading.

Still, Grinch has offered a few hints and I've read many of his posts in the discussion section so I know he's not a religious type. So, consider this a type of scaffolding,  a scaffolding that once its work is done can be thrown away (Nod to Dawkins here, Grinch).

Alternatively, 'the angel' remains the foetus and 'counts' means something like depends
or important. The problem is that we don't have that ubiquitous 'on' "I count on you" or  even 'as' "I count you as one of my supporters." Thus, we have to have an addition, "The angel counts the seconds on the throw of dice [as important]".

I'm not satisfied with that reading, and, to be honest, if that's what Grinch was shooting for, an exercise in misdirection, I would argue that this is an interesting failure.

quote:
Unhindered by the curse of being blind.


Regardless, I do find this misdirection to be very satisfying. The trick here is to see this line, not as modifying 'angel' but 'cells': "cells, unhindered by the curse of being blind."

or

"Unhindered by the curse of being blind, the cells . . . ."

I think a comma would help here.

But with that, the curse of being blind is not on the angel but on the cells as in "If you keep doing that, you'll go blind."

And all of a sudden, these four lines show something incredible happening. What Jim would call the 'surface' meaning and, for me at any rate, so much more.  

But I do think a comma would help.


Brad
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since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
25 posted 2007-10-06 08:11 PM


I'm going to jump a bit (and from some of you, I can hear, "Oh, thank God".)

quote:
The page forms unwritten turning sap to flesh


For Jim, this seems to be the key line, the one that unravels the rest of the poem, more or less. I don't have any problems with that reading: writing/children -- it's not exactly the first time, is it?  

No, the problem is that I don't see how it works all that well with the rest of the poem (Perhaps I'm going blind from -- you know).

What I do see, however, is an unwritten page,  a blank sheet, tabula rasa.

Yeah, but what do you with 'sap into flesh'?

While, no doubt, the relationship between a page (paper) and tree sap shouldn't go unnoticed, 'sap' also means any 'vital body fluid' or at least did.

So a quick paraphrase:

'The formation of the unwritten page turns sap into flesh'

and it is perfectly consistent with the rest of the poem.

One point that I'm not sure about is the use of sap to mean 'overly sentimental'. I don't know if this translates across the pond. It may, it may not.

Sap, sticky, syrupy, sweet.

Could this be a subtle way to show the distinction between the spirit and the material? A variation on at least one form of mystic gnosticism?

But I'm foreshadowing the rest of my reading.

At this point, I expect three reactions:

1. Uh, I have no idea what you're talking about.
2. Duh, I'm not an idiot.
3. Wow, I never saw it that way.

I hope, of course, for the third, expect the second, and fear the first.

[This message has been edited by Brad (10-06-2007 08:51 PM).]

Grinch
Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929
Whoville
26 posted 2007-10-06 08:54 PM



Brad,

quote:
One point that I'm not sure about is the use of sap to mean 'overly sentimental'. I don't know if this translates across the pond. It may, it may not.


It does, though naïve would be closer to the meaning I was aiming for.

Craig


Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
27 posted 2007-10-07 01:31 AM


While more could be said about the two middle stanzas and, I think, fertility rites, I want to jump to the end:

quote:
Soft swaddled kisses couched with pure relief
All counts found true of pigs and pokes.
The gods of Adam, wrapped within their heathen pride,
Both tickled by the giving and the gift.


Again, I find Jim's explication of his favorite line perfect. Our only difference is that poke implies one more kind of limb. This extra limb and 'The gods of Adam wrapped within their heathen pride' are the male sex organ.

Karen points out how the poem reminds her of actual pregnancy and child birth while I am, no doubt, focusing on the male part of the bargain.

To which Karen might scream, "Are you kidding? Ten seconds and then you're done. We  do everything else."

I have no argument against such a position. And it's very clear that several pre-Christian cultures did indeed venerate the female side of the bargain. What I see, however, as I have tried to explain in my comments on the first stanza, is that the male is equally represented and perhaps even tilted in his favor.

The gods, creators, or Adam, Man, are the repositories of sperm held in the scrotum. In  Greek thought it was believed that man controlled the vitality of life while women were merely vessels. Japanese mythology also tells that the man is the initiator, not the woman (the tale of Izanami and Izanagi and the creation of Japan).  

If this is right, it makes sense then that the child is male and that the 'gods' are 'tickled' by both the giving (the action) and the gift (the infant or perhaps the infant's genitals are tickled).

I should pause for a minute while Karen goes to the bathroom to throw up.

Still, the two gods may also represent the male and female.

One more point:

Look at the number of words that mean enclosed spaces:

cribbed, caul, swaddled, wrapped etc.

or binds or ties

and compare them with words like unhindered,
throw, exit, unleashed.

What this means to me is that even in the process of pregnancy, we are being cyclical -- or rather that impression is created by the repetition. And that is also a heathen idea if I'm not mistaken. A birthday in an endless cycle of birthdays.

I'm done.

Everything from now on will be of a more theoretical bent.

Grinch
Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929
Whoville
28 posted 2007-10-07 05:22 AM


OMG!

If I was a lawyer trying to prove that the readers interpretation of obscure poems is as, if not more, valid than the authors right now I’d be heading back to my seat proclaiming in a loud voice, “ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I rest my case”.

Jim’s reading was good, I could tilt my head sideways and see the logic, yours was brilliant, I honestly got the smack in the face aha moment that’s usually reserved for the reader. Re-reading the poem I even started to work out what parts of it meant when taken in the context you outlined, which may sound stupid as I wrote the darn thing in the first place!

I don’t want to attach the word wrong to either your, or Jims, interpretation, neither deserves it and that would kind of undermine my case in favour of the readers interpretation. However in the context of what I had in mind when I wrote this (obviously apart from sex) I’m going to have to say that you’re both digging in the wrong field.


BTW Brad, in your interpretation ‘page’ could be a reference to a wedding attendant ‘unwritten’ could be synonymous with something that hasn’t yet occurred, together they may mean that this is an extra-marital relationship, something secret that the pair have previously only dreamed about.


Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
29 posted 2007-10-07 06:49 AM


But then I don't understand 'forms'.

'The page forms unwritten . . ."

Interesting, but doesn't make sense, does it?

Grinch
Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929
Whoville
30 posted 2007-10-07 08:09 AM


Maybe they’re thinking about what could be, it’s a notion, an idea or dream and dreams, ideas and notions can do a lot of things, including form.

I’m only guessing of course, in the original version this:

The page forms unwritten turning sap to flesh

Was a reference to the bible.


Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
31 posted 2007-10-07 04:00 PM


Okay, okay, I'll be quiet.

Try to be quiet.

Make every effort not to interrupt. Please continue.

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

32 posted 2007-10-07 04:46 PM


Um...Karen didn't say this.

quote:
To which Karen might scream, "Are you kidding? Ten seconds and then you're done. We  do everything else."


It doth amuse her though.

Ten seconds?

Hmmm. I suppose that's reasonable---for a pigeon!



ten seconds...

Karen exits, shaking her head and muttering...wow.

Grinch
Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929
Whoville
33 posted 2007-10-07 05:40 PM




Cribbed in the ocean of a mothered world;

The baby at home (crib) inside his mother, a crib is also a babies bed and the ocean is the amniotic fluid.

Bound by the belly and the tide,

The umbilical chord connects baby to mother, the tide is a reference to lunar months which measure menstruation, gestation and affect the tides.

The angel counts the seconds on the throw of cells

The baby is waiting to be born, he’s in countdown mode, and the throw of cells is the child’s development, though luck also plays a part as to when d-day will be, so throw evokes dice.

Unhindered by the curse of being blind.

Simply means that the baby isn’t blind, but technically he can’t see anything either.

Curled in the crooking of his shepherdess;

In the foetal position inside his mother

Soothed by the wooing and the heat,

The wooing is the mothers heartbeat, the heat is her body temparature.

The page forms unwritten turning sap to flesh

The page is the child which is formed by an unwritten code (genetics) which turns sap to flesh.

And caul to quick, all kicking in his haste.

From his head to his fingers and toes the baby is kicking in his haste to be born.

Suddenly the exit and the entrance

The baby is born, which is both an exit and an entrance

Two strangers tied but yet to meet

Mother and child joined by the umbilical chord meet properly for the first time.

In tender clutches smiles unleash the chance to dream

Mother and father dream of the day little Adam is going to become President - and all he had to do was smile.

All savoured in the hunt for breath and breast.

While they’re planning the presidential campaign he’s taking his first breath and looking for his first meal.

Soft swaddled kisses couched with pure relief

The baby is wrapped and kissed, the mother is kissed, the midwife is kissed and everyone is relieved that everything went well.

All counts found true of pigs and pokes.

Fingers? Check. toes? Check etc.

The gods of Adam, wrapped within their heathen pride,

The creators of little baby Adam are as proud as punch. The word 'Heathen' helped the second theme but the natural occurrence of childbirth seemed to fit here too, especially as I’d used a god reference earlier in the line.

Both tickled by the giving and the gift.

Both parents were tickled by getting the gift of a baby and, albeit nine months earlier, the giving.


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