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Clarity & Virtue
| Critical Analysis #2 |
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Clarity & Virtue |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
This life full oft confuses minds and hearts, That it is only due devoir, in deed, That artists keep much Clarity in arts, That far and wide with published writs to read, With pictures and with sounds amuse the folk, Whereof the manners many emulate Both skillful things that please or dare provoke, That is correctly democraftic fate, And give this life a blessing or a curse With Virtue that invigorates with light, Or sell the things that make confusion worse With vices that obscurify our sight. Attraction and image may help their face, But Clarity and Virtue give them grace. |
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| © Copyright 2007 Essorant - All Rights Reserved | |||
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Beautiful. 'Attraction and image may help their face, But Clarity and Virtue give them grace.' SO very right!!!!! enjoyed Tomtoo |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Very interesting write, sir. Your syllable counts are all exact and the meter only fails in the next to last line. clinically, it is a very well-constructed poem and yet I had trouble reading it smoothly. Perhaps the mixture of hard and soft constants or something similar. I would still give it a thumbs up  |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Tom & Balladeer, Thanks very much for your kind comments. I see where the meter is out in the second last line now (image). Any suggestions of how I may make this flow better overall? |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Don't count on me sir. How dare I touch the words master's words? |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I'll be happy to offer whatever suggestions I can...as soon as I get a long workday out of the way. I'll be back |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
A life full of CONFUSING minds and hearts, EXCEPT is only due devoir, in deed, WHEN artists keep much Clarity in arts, That far and wide with published writs OF read, OF pictures and OF sounds amuse the folk, Whereof the manners many emulate ALL skillful things that please or dare provoke, WHAT is correctly democraftic fate, And give this life a blessing or a curse With Virtue that invigorates with light, Or sell the things that make confusion worse With vices that obscurify our sight. Attraction and image may help their face, WHILE Clarity and Virtue give them grace. My hard try. You may say anything or correct me,Sir, because I am truly not qualified to do so. I am learning and a long way to go. [This message has been edited by TomMark (09-12-2007 07:56 PM).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
And now we have a lecture. Don't get me wrong. There are many things I like about this piece. I like the use of obscure words or hybrids, these ever so quietly undermine the main thrust (This is a good thing, though I'm not quite sure it was intended). I like the symmetry and enjambment in the second half. And ultimately I think it presents a few questions that we haven't really discussed before -- at least not overtly. Is the primary function of art didactic? Should virtue be promoted over and above authenticity? Is clarity more important than the act of discovery? With that and the usual rigamarole of opinions (You know, free v. form, show v. tell, narrative v. lyric), presents a piece that is an important addition to this forum. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I wanted to like this. (I still do.) But that first line? *wince* Perhaps it's just a matter of personal preference, but it just turned me off as contrived and as a result, labored. (I am happy to see Mike's here though. I know he will contribute much to discussions of meter.) I don't know if I even want to delve into Brad's arguments as of yet. I think it's pretty obvious that I have a looser view of what is art. (It's pretty obvious I have a looser view of everything.  )I think the reason I find form poetry such a bad fit for me is that it's incredibly difficult for me to write form in my own voice (which is what my goal is for learning meter actually) but it's your tone, here, Ess. It's all prim, and nearly perfect (as far as I can see) but it just doesn't "grab" me. There's no pack to the punch... The subject has been discussed many times and I'm afraid there's nothing here that made me say "aha! I get it, now". And no offense intended, but for me it, the poem had the opposite effect of proving the advantage of free verse over form. Sorry?  As for the title (and subject?) I'd say that this is good (enough) but not very clear. It probably wouldn't play in Peoria, but then, you probably weren't looking to play in Peoria.  |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
As I said in the "What is Unpoetic?" thread: "To me doing what is good for people and civilization comes first, not doing what they "like" " That in a few words is the sum of my approach to life and art. It shall never be a primary concern of mine that a reader or student "likes" or is "turned on" by what he reads and meets in something I give. But it is a primary concern that the artwork has a healthy mind or meaning and a healthy body or form, for when it does then it is civilized, an artful and virtuous artwork. [This message has been edited by Essorant (09-13-2007 07:08 PM).] |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Oh. Well...shrug. Whatever floats yer boat!  I'm happy with it if you are. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Dear Sir Essorant, are you right? If not for my bad mood I would have tried to write a poem in your other thread. I hope that I did not offend you. I have learnt many things from your post. Thank you and may you haev a nice day sir!! |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Serenity That is not very wise. It doesn't matter whether the author is happy or not with it. Happiness doesn't turn a mess into a masterpiece. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Tom. Why would you offend me? I am not always able to to respond point by point, but I appreciate your comments and suggestions. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: What happens when people think what you’re doing isn’t good and who judges whether what pleases people is good for them or not? Life can confuse minds and sometimes hearts, and frames responsibility indeed, yet artists should hold pleasure in their arts, when publishing the things we like to read. The form was ok, the meter was too (apart from the line Mike mentioned) but the content didn’t grab me and stumbling over the archaic language and hybrid diction wasn’t much fun either. Like Brad I’m not sure whether you intended the ironic counterpoint to the call for clarity by making it so hard to read, if you did I think you need to go further and add a little more obscurity. Try hiding the message even more just to underline the irony. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
What's not wise would be arguing with you, Essorant. You LOVE this argument, and I've read enough of these threads to know where you stand on it and I'm obviously not going to change your mind. (Um, and poetry like this isn't going to change anyone else's mind either.) I don't think it's bad, Essorant. It just bored me. I mean no offense, either. But yanno? You may be one of the few people left who still actually speak this way, so for me to declare it as an unnatural voice would be presumptuous. But um, maybe I didn't get the joke. I dunno. I'd love to get ya drunk though.  In short, you can beat the dead horse, but count me out of it. Thanks, and my apologies if my commentary offended you. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Grinch "What happens when people think what you’re doing isn’t good and who judges whether what pleases people is good for them or not?" Then what I am doing remains the same. It doesn't turn good just because people think it is good, or turn bad just because people think it is bad. As far as judging whether something that pleases someone is good or bad, that is something I think we all do to some extent and often should do more carefully too. "stumbling over the archaic language and hybrid diction wasn’t much fun either" So which one did you stumble on. The very complex archaic word, oft, or the impenetrable meaning of "democraftic"? |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Serenity No it doesn't offend me. But I just don't find your comments showing me the basis of your judgement using the poem itself and explaining why and how something may not work. For all I know you could be bored of Shakespeare's work too. I'm just looking for the support of the negative connotations you try to send with calling my first line "contrived" or "labored", or what exactly you didn't "get" about it, or what substantiates saying "It just bored me". I also wonder about the pursuit of a "natural" tone. This is poetry, an art. Plain everyday speech is natural. It seems to me trying to be very "natural" only assimilates poetry more to plain, ordinary speech. Although Poetry certainly needs basics of natural speech, it also needs artificial force to heighten it and make it poetically graceful. How should I receive these points, if you don't explain them or give any argument to support them? [This message has been edited by Essorant (09-13-2007 10:01 PM).] |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Fair enough. Funny you should mention Shakespeare, because I did ask myself if I would be bored by Shakespeare if I didn't know I was supposed to be floored by Shakespeare. *thinking* The Sonnets are lyrical. I don't have a problem with 'em. The plays, and I think I said this before, I have to hear conversationally. But hmmm...now, let's use another example, John Donne. I was pretty bored by him, until I met a professor who um, enlightened me. (I could elaborate, but you'd probably prefer I did not.  )I already pointed out that my trouble with YOUR poem here, started at the first sentence. It sounds awkward when I read it outloud and it stymies in my head, thereafter. The message? I apologize again, but that's what bores me. Arguments about what constitute art and higher moral purpose just bore me in general. Some people look at a white wall and hang a poster, or a paint a painting or some such thing. Someone like, say, Florence Broadhurst looked at a white wall and considered the whole thing a palette--and she went on to create metallic cubist optical illusion textiles for wallpaper, and that actually influenced the entire culture of the sixties, and seventies, and her textiles are still used in fashion today. Wallpaper might not be art to you, though. I don't really care if you think it is or isn't. I just find that first sentence clumsy. I know it wants to be more--and maybe I just don't "get" it, Ess. (I also color outside the lines. <--and that's a boring analogy, so don't sweat the "boring" thing.) Rhythms and openings are kind of vital to me. Right now, I'm thinking of the legendary recording engineer, Tom Dowd, who managed to fix a problem in one band's song, simply by changing the opening beat of the drum to a more native American-type down beat. (I'm having a brain fog moment and can't think of this very famous song though. *laughing* When I do remember, I promise I will smack myself and then I'll let you know.)  <--advance smackingBut that anecdote would soooo explain how I feel about the technical difficulty I'm finding with the first sentence. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
But calling the first line clumsy is still just tagging an adjective on it. You still aren't explaining to me what makes it "clumsy". Similarly, saying that you are bored with the topic, doesn't point out anything that is inherently wrong with the topic or poem itself. In truth, I may say your tastes may be what are "boring" for not being amused with such a topic, especially when it often has so many interesting thoughts, questions, arguments, and artistic manners of expression that come along with it. I am just having some critical ado with you |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
And you are a good sport too, Ess.  I really would love it if you'd come to my Winter Solstice party. We could have drumming and chanting and a bonfire...and you can recite Beowulf and we'll drink some B&B!!! We can be as GODS!!! oh..sheesh. anyhow, you're a good sport.  |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
SorryI haven't been around yet. Between the work and the poker games, I've been MIA. As far as the first lines goes, Serenity is correct. It does not lend a good opening into the rest of the work. It is stilted, meaning that the sounds do not create a flow to them. You have chosen (intentionally or not a semi-alliteration of the letter "f", that in itself being a difficult thing to do. I say semi- because you are not placing it a the beginning of words, which a true alliteration is, but in the middle of them in two of three cases. This life full oft confuses minds and hearts, "liFe Full oFt conFuses....". It is impossible to get those words to flow and taxes the mind. Actually, upon reading it again, I see where the iambic is also destroyed by them. You have three long feet together...LIFE FULL OFT. Add that to the fact that the letter F is a harsh letter and it adds to the problem. Sounds are used to convey or create moods or a certain atmosphere to the poem. There are smooth sounds and harsh ones. S,M and R are, for example smooth ones. F, G, and K are harsh ones. If one is going to use a repetitive sound in a line, it should be to set a mood. FRANTICALLY, FIREFIGHTERS FOUGHT THE INFERNO The reader can feel the tension and urgency in the line the author is trying to promote by hammering the reader with the F. SEARING FLAMES REACHED SKYWARD FROM THE BLAZE Here one can still get the vision of the fire but not feel the same level of emotion, due to the fact that the smooth letter S has replaced the harsh F. In your line, it doesn't appear your use of the repeated F is to create any specific mood of urgency, rather it is simply an informational line, so it sounds out of place. I read a poetry book many years ago which showcased one of the great past poets (for the life of me I can't remember which) who created his poetry specifically by these sound usages. The reader had no idea any specific technique was being used but was caught up in the flow of the lines and the emotion they emitted (created artificially by the poet's expert use of the sounds). Anyway, I'm rambling and I don't know if any of that makes a lot of sense to you but let me say that your line could be easily changed which would nullify Serenity's objection to it by simply changing it to: This life we live confuses minds and hearts or This life at times confuses mind and hearts The repetitive hammering of the F is gone and the iambic is perserved. It can then lead easily into the next line. [This message has been edited by Balladeer (09-14-2007 08:10 AM).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Or you could say that the 'f' consonance make the line top heavy. You need, perhaps, to balance the sound a bit more. I mean, c'mon, four 'f's in the first three feet (6 syllables)? And then it disappears. Mike definitely has a point here. Along the same line of thinking, however, the first half of the line uses achaic language and convention, the second half is a variation on fairly common language today, "We must win over the hearts and minds . . ." Choose one or the other. Personally, I think Karen tripped over the inversion 'full oft' but this is what we have come to expect. It is an Ess poem after all. Still, the question of boring has been brought up. I'm not sure I agree with that, but the topic is an abstraction, virtue and clarity or, if you want, adjectives in noun form. Is that a good thing? It's amazing to me that so much praise is often lavished on poems that praise an abstraction and yet so many books, letters, lectures, dialogues etc. on the same topic are greeted with glazed over eyes. In 1984, Orwell points out that the books we really like are the books that tell us what we already know. Perhaps it's the same here. I don't know. At any rate, Ess has come out strongly on the side of didacticism. Okay, but are you preaching to the already converted or trying to convert? Or is it that preaching abstractions almost preordains assent? Who would disagree that virtue (with no examples or situations given) or clarity (again) are not good things? Karen seems to and I'm going to. And why I feel dangerously close to putting words in Karen's mouth -- something that I have no wish to do -- it seems prudent to point out the bleeding obvious once again: Clarity and virtue are complex, not simple, ideas. And that goes double when you're talking about their place in an art form. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Serenity, Thanks very much. You are good sport too. I don't have any good means to travel so far, but that would be very interesting. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Balladeer, Thanks for explaining so carefully. The f's were not meant for any mood in special, except an alliterative mood or manner that would be somewhat continued in the rest of the poem ("due devoir in deed", "manners many emulate" "virtue that invigorates" etc). I see what you are getting to some extent. But to some extent I don't, because what I am pursuing with the f's is the musical effect of alliteration. To say that f's should not be used for alliteration seems a bit mistaken. Looking more carefully perhaps the problem is between making a word in a less-stressed position (full) alliterate with a syllable in a mainstressed position (-fuses), and also following the sound of -ife right away with fu- of full. An f to an f without any sound between. Perhaps it may help to change the order around a bit. Full oft this life confuses minds and hearts Does that sound better? |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Absolutely. That makes a world of difference |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Now y'see? That's just what Tom Dowd used t'do! |
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Allysa 
since 1999-11-09
Posts 1952In an upside-down garden |
I agree. It made a world of difference for me. I had a hard time getting past the sound of the first line, and I believe that Balladeer explained it best. Now that that has been switched around, it makes it easier for me to latch on and continue throughout the piece. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
"Clarity and virtue are complex, not simple, ideas." I'm not talking about people's ideas about clarity and virtue though, but about clarity and virtue themselves. You may be full of the idea and notion that stomping on your garden and never watering it brings out the best of it. But when we look at the garden itself, and compare it with other gardens, we shall see the evidence itself has something much different to say. Likewise, when we say something has virtue and clarity, we must judge by the evidence, for any man may have an idea of such things, but that doesn't mean the evidence lives up to having them. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Dear sir Essorant, You are absolutely right! I can't agree more. "Likewise, when we say something has virtue and clarity, we must judge by the evidence, for any man may have an idea of such things, but that doesn't mean the evidence lives up to having them." wow, you talked like a philosopher. But some people do want to pull out the root to show you, "here, the evidnece. Guess what kind flower does it bloom and what kind leaves does it grow?". or " Ah screw it". |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: Yeah, I know that's what you think you're doing. But you aren't. quote: Perhaps you're confusing complexity with arbitrary? Without people's ideas of clarity or virtue, there would be no such ideas as themselves. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: Wow, did it bother you that much? |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Without ideas of this there would be no ideas of that? I am willing to accept that, at least for now. But without the evidence of clarity and virtue in something itself there would be no words or ideas about them to begin with. For if there are words and ideas for something, then there is something for the words and ideas, that is, what the words and ideas are about. "It doesn't exist" "It is all in the head" "It is all too complex" There are many problems in these kind of approaches. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
One of my favorite poems is "Forbearance" by Samuel Taylor Coleridge. I think the history of good poetry proves that the didactic element can't and shouldn't be forbidden. That would be (ironically) too didactic. (though I'm not against didactic poetry, I have to agree with Karen, that it needed some punch. Only I don't think its the message as much as the delivery) Could it be that Essorant is pleading for coherency rather than clarity? Obscurity is not always a bad thing. Something that appears obscure, simply because it isn't coherent to start with, amounts to bad poetry. Stephen |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: And I can agree with that. Most of us don't have any problems with "a clear sky" or "clear water" or any of its other uses. I don't think many of us would disagree with "Mother Theresa performed many virtuous acts." Heh, I want to list more example but I think the point is clear enough. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: Oh, I agree, but it involves two things for me: 1. Teaching means nothing if no one learns. 2. Did I learn something new and/or interesting? quote: Ah man, that's another whole question. I really do think echoes of this thread will continue to plague us months, even years, from now. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Dear Sir Brad, yes very clear (not so frequently though  I add one more. Yours typical. A clean white paper. A story. In an EL school, Every one was drawing but Brad was not. When teacher asked him why he was not drawing he replied "I did. I drew a lots of grasses and a horse. The horse ate the grass. so I drew a wall to block the horse and someone came to paint it white." So, until Brad tells, Brad's idea did not show any evidence on the white paper and others can have all kind of saying about this white paper. it must be the poetry thing. [This message has been edited by TomMark (09-14-2007 10:39 PM).] |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
" Ah screw it". "Wow, did it bother you that much?" Yes, Sir!! It bothers me and my idea about your poem and it bothers your poem and your idea of your poem |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
The more of learning's ladders in their way They likelier the higher climb some day. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
To climb up or climb down? or on the ladder we stay? |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Who dares to look may learn a while The sense is didactylic style But maybe most it is a pinch At poetries by Brad or Grinch Not all, but some that e'er confuse, From them perhaps I found a Muse? |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Essorant? "You may be full of the idea and notion that stomping on your garden and never watering it brings out the best of it. But when we look at the garden itself, and compare it with other gardens, we shall see the evidence itself has something much different to say." That was just so wrong, Ess. I'm disappointed in you. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
for wish of centered diamond, sir I chisel hard away the dirt. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Ah..more clarity. I'm really underwhelmed by you too, TM. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
My dear Lady SB, I learnt a lot from all your posts. So  to you!! |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Serenity, It is easy to tag an adjective such as "wrong" onto something without any argument to back it up. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Ess, quote: Are you saying that because I write poems that you think lack clarity my poems are somehow inferior? |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
No, I am saying that the evidence of the poem itself and the comparison of it with other poems may contradict the author's claim of success. The author may think or say his poem has strong clarity, but the poem itself may be as a cloud of confusion. We need to judge the poem by the poem and aspects of the poem itself, and in comparison to other poems. You know better or worse by evidence and comparison, not by taking it only in individualistic interpretation or individualistic isolation. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Ess, quote: So do you think the evidence proves the inferiority of my poems? Oh, and what do you mean by “author's claim of success”? |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Evidence is meaningless without judge and jury. Who did you say was volunteering? Who did you say was qualified? You want to paint yourself a little tighter into that corner, Ess? |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Grinch,
Yes, in comparison to works that are better than yours. How may any of us be so fond of our own poetry to try and say that it is just as good as every other work?
I meant the claim that the poem succeeds in working well over all, or in some special point such as having clarity in content, or strength in poetic form. Even though the poet may intend and claim such things, the poem itself may turn out to prove itself as much otherwise. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Ron Who isn't qualified or volunteering? Surely you aren't suggesting we need to be institutionally qualified in order to make any meaningful judgements? |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Ess, quote: And, presumably, in comparison to works that aren’t as good my obscure poems are better. So all poems can be equally good and equally virtuous regardless of clarity and the measure is based on an individual’s preference (or as you put it judgement). Yep I agree entirely. So what was your point again? |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
That is almost the opposite of the point I was trying to make. My point is that we need to judge how much virtue is in the poem by the basis/evidence of the poem itself and in comparison with other poems, and not lock or isolate ourselves into "individual preference". One may prefer muddy water all he wants. But that isn't going to make it clean and healthy. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Nope. Surely you aren't suggesting you're more qualified than us? Put another way, why should we accept your judgment as valid? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
No. I am saying that clear and understandable poetry is better than cloudy and confusing poetry. Why should you accept that? Not because I say it. But because it is true. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
exactly, exactly!!! |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: "True" lol, what IS "true"? I don't think you can "win" this one Ess, and, believe me, I have a lot of sympathy for what I think you are trying to say. The problem is that your "cloudy and confusing" is someone else's blue sky. Subjectivity rules. I am the first to rage against obscure language (the irony is that some of your language and syntax while being technically "correct" is often so rare these days that it comes over confusing ) and remote allusion, but I accept that poetry by Ashbery and Geoffrey Hill, for example, has its keen followers, and I am in no position to label it "bad" simply because I can't understand it. I'm fond of this link which I may have posted before:http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/press/kowit.html Anyway, does poetry always have to "mean", can't it just "sound" sometimes? M |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Ah, Ess -- Glad to see you've moved from tetrameter to pentameter (though I've been away, so this might not be new.) On the other hand, if you are going to do Alexander Pope, you might try HIS line and couplets. I think you're a closet 18th Century poet anyway, which doesn't make life easier. PS: I hope you have noticed, as I was stunned to notice, that the level of discourse (if not all the poems) in this forum has, for the most part, shot up phenomenally in the past six weeks. A question: If you write with a particular affectation (and this applies to all affectations, though half the kids won't recognize the word,) do you not have an especial obligation to hit some pretty high notes to be heard above the background of tradition? I don't know the answer, Ess. When I write in iambics, people complain about my use of enjambment. I think, when EVERY line is enjambed, it may be saying something about form. So, who knows. Nice to read you again, Jim Aitken |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: Yes Jim, you left and I came back Seriously, I am so glad you are ok and back in the land of the literary. All the best. M |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: It sounds as if you know exactly what constitutes a good poem, no doubt you also know the ingredients that go into an excellent poem which in turn tends to suggest that you could list the constituent parts of an exceptional poem. So what are they, and why aren’t you churning them out by the ream and cornering the market in exceptional poems? [This message has been edited by Grinch (09-16-2007 08:21 AM).] |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Hi Moonbeam! Can't email you so responding here out of context. I'm doing better, barely mobile, enduring most predictable post-surgery indignities, but hey, it's just bodies. I'm not thrilled that it's my body, but then, men are dumb and put things off for too long so I'm not railing against anything or ready to go gently. Best, Jim |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: That's only what you think you're saying, Essorant. What you're really telling us is that you want to be the judge and jury, that you are somehow particularly qualified to judge the evidence and hand down verdicts, that you are going to tell us which poems are clear and which are cloudy. Of course, if you want to suggest someone else for that job, we're all ears; just tell us why that particular individual is qualified. Again, Ess: Evidence is meaningless without judge and jury. Who do you want to nominate? |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: Ron Why so sarcastic? Why are you making this so personal? Why, for that matter, suggest that a "judge and jury" are any better qualified to determine quality than anyone else? You are simply lowering the discussion to the mundane. I am sure that Ess would accept that any opinion he expresses here is his own subjective opinion, he simply expresses it forcefully. Like I have been known to do sometimes. Have a cup of soothing hot chocolate Ron. M |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
quote: Well Moonbeam, that's easy for you to say--Essorant seems to be having some difficulty with it however. I really thought we were just having "fun" Essorant. Apparently you were having less fun than I assumed. I apologize if my observation of the first line offended you--but I won't apologize for not voicing that using the language of your choice. (I'm not a meter reader, nor will I ever be a "scandroid".) But I was at least entertaining the idea of trying to learn scansion and meter--even if I never utilize it--I sincerely did want to understand it. I'm not so certain anymore--so I think I can serenely assert that your poem lived up to the promise of the title--I have much more clarity now, and virtue really is entirely subjective. So peace to you--I'll not be bothering you again. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Karen Yes it's easy for me to say because I sincerely believe it to be the case. I used to think that in this forum it went without saying that everything one said was preceded by an invisible "IMO" tag. I've learnt however that, sometimes it's best to spell IMO out in so many letters otherwise misunderstandings occur. Having said that, Ess is an intelligent individual and accordingly I find it hard to think that he would expect people to think he was always "right" and, as Ron said, should always be "judge and jury". So, yes it's easy for me to assume that. But he can speak for himself no doubt. On meter, I think it's a shame that you won't/can't continue to learn about it. In a previous thread I mentioned that it might be a good idea to just practise writing a few lines of unrhymed iambic pentameter (blank verse): The raving sailor climbed the stripped pine mast To gather data from the telescope, When all at once the siren bared her breast, And soon they scraped him from the blood-smeared teak. Come on Karen, have a shot at four lines like that. Soon you'll be chanting blank verse in your sleep driving the cat wild. M |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
"Soon you'll be chanting blank verse in your sleep driving the cat wild" *laughing* I do have goals, but my cat is wild enough! (*snip snip* is scheduled) But I didn't say I'd stop trying to learn, I'm just gonna try to stop annoying Essorant. I didn't intend offense--it was just my humble opinion. No worries--it's not that easy to run me off. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
The lines the lines Miss Karen please (Iambic tetrameter.) Lets go! |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
and no offense to YOU either MB...but I didn't sign up for a class here. I've got a mentor. (I would have e mailed you that, but your e mail is unavailable--and besides, I don't think Essorant's thread is the appropriate place for you and I to have a dialogue, k?) |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
I'm certainly not trying to be sarcastic, M. Or personal. Unlike you, though, I don't think Essorant yet realizes that clarity and virtue are largely subjective. He sees them, I believe, as self-evident qualities. As to the judge and jury analogy, that simply arose from his own arguments about evidence. Mundane? I would prefer to see it as expressing an opinion, uh, forcefully. quote: Don't be discouraged, Karen. The discussion, in this thread and others, is centered on the craft of meter, in large part, I suspect, because that's the way Essorant approaches it and he's been the leader in these discussions. Scansion, in particular, is just a way for us all to talk about the same thing. However, while craft is important (very important!), it is still just craft. Meter is not so easily pinned down, in my opinion, because it crosses the realm into art. Using meter in a poem is a bit like two people dancing, I think. It's a waltz. The writer is leading, one-two, three-four, and the reader is following, one-two, three-four. A good writer makes it easy to follow, but a good reader can follow anyone, and the poetic experience typically runs the entire scale of everything between those extremes. Craft can lay out what a dance is supposed to look like; one-two, three-four. That sensation of two people moving in physical communion, however, quickly surpasses craft and only rarely follows the meticulous footprints of craft. The writer can lead the reader into deviations, ones that rarely scan perfectly, because all the previous steps have created expectations. It's still a waltz, it's still iambic meter, not because the footprints necessarily scan, but rather because the write and reader agree it's still a waltz. Everything else, I believe, is simply "the audience," standing on the sidelines and trying to figure out what makes it work so damn well. My advice? Don't spend too much time on the sidelines. You can often learn a lot more out on the floor, both as leader and as follower. Dance! |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Now y'see? That's more my style... Thank you Ron, because I think you understand that there is very little that I will do on command. *laughing* I'm working on that sonnet I promised Ess, too, but oddly, what I find difficult is focusing on a simpler theme. Besides, I actually went OUT Friday night, and I am sore from dancing (and laughing) and yanno? It occurred to me today that if y'pull a muscle laughing--it's a pretty good sign you've been depressed a lonnnnnnng time. I'll be around. I'm just in a veg state, and a little distracted by a certain football game too. But it is NICE to know that posting in C/A is not automatic sign up for that "SOMA" thing. (I laid off that stuff a few years ago.) Thanks Ron, thanks MB. And thank you too, Essorant. (I did actually learn a lot from this thread.) |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Sorry Ron, it was just your "all ears" comment that came over to me as a bit sarcastic. My bad. And Karen, don't worry I wouldn't dream of trying to get you to do anything to order. I was just trying to get the thread back to poetry and the discussion thereof, and to try and help you dans le process.M |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
" I don't think Essorant yet realizes that clarity and virtue are largely subjective. He sees them, I believe, as self-evident qualities." Poem like art....the admiration can be very subjective. But, you will not deny that there is also a common sense of general beauty. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Subjectivity is just a way of trying to compensate for deficiencies or obscurities in a body of evidence. It is not that different from a bunch of people going into a room and finding a puzzle with missing pieces. The more missing pieces there are, the more people try to compensate for the missing pieces, and fill them in with subjective imagination. We can't actually see the picture where the pieces are missing, but we make it up in our subjective imagination. And the more pieces are missng the more we make up, and the more extreme variation there in our imaginations, because there is less of a puzzle overall to go by. It is likewise in poetry as well. The more obscure and doubtful a poem is the more dependant it is on people subjectively imagining that it is not obscure and doubtful, trying to make up for it by donating "benefits of doubts", imagination, and pretense, and dilating subjectivity sometimes to extremes in an attempt to fill in the absence and very lack of clarity and virtues in the actual work itself. But the more such compensatory subjectivity comes into action, it just becomes more evident that it is trying to make up for such deficiences. A poem that truly has much clarity and virtue is not dependant on people subjectively imagining and pretending that much clarity and virtue are there. The clarity and virtue are in the artwork itself, not in someone on the outside subjectively using imagination to make them up. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
quote: smile...oh Ess. Be well, for here? We must part ways. *peace to you* And just let this go--I'll be around, but I don't think you and I make good dancing partners. *shrug* Sometimes it's just that way...nothing personal--since that is the way you like it! |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Essorant, wow, so very right!!!!! |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Tom? or Mark? Would you care to tell me (in your own words, if possible) what exactly you find to be so true? |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Now you don’t want readers to use their imagination! How the heck are you going to stop them? I can’t even imagine a world without imagination. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Grinch, Not if one must subjectively imagine or pretend something has clarity and virtue when it doesn't. That is what I meant, Grinch. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Serenity Why must be so "on and off again" about everything? |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
My dear Lady SB, The objectivity of aesthetics. Most people like Shakespeare's poems. Why, because their words, meters, rhyme and rhythm, feeling, storys, imaginations went into their brains in the same mechanism and released the same hormone to make them happy. I did not like them before. You might tell me how beautiuful they were but I could not read it as soemthing very good( the translated form was much better) becasue my brain was not wired the same way as many others'. Only after a little bit training, to be honest, in PIP, I can appreciate more of them. And They are indeed very beautiful. So no matter what, a beauty is a beauty. Can't be smeared. But shall I say that obscurity is beauty? depends. The word itself brings blurringness. But clearity is beauty, no doubt. Tomtoo |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Do you not even find it ironic that you write a poem about clarity and virtue and the result is THIS? I'll leave you be, Essorant, but tell me why you felt it necessary to use that garden analogy? |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Sb, If root is beautiful then we shall really plant flowers. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
and we are apparently blooming idiots... |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
why do you say that? |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Serenity The garden analogy was meant as an example of maltreatment being subjectively treated as good treatment. The gardener is filled with the notion that stomping on the garden is good treatment. Should we accept that as good treatment because he and we may subjectively imagine or pretend or ignore something to make it out as good treatment? No. The evidence of how the garden is doing is in the garden itself. If we let subjectivity rule, we end up accepting mistreatment as good treatment. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
quote: Thank you, Essorant, for clarifying. I understand, and for the sake of your clarity, be very aware that I agree with you. I will not subject myself to such misguided "good" intention in the future. Now I'll leave you be. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Ess said: quote: Tom said: quote: Did Shakespeare's poems change, or did the mental condition affecting Tom's opinion change? What is a half finished jigsaw to you Ess, may well be a complete picture to me. Anyway this is heading into 101 territory. Humm. M |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Your analogy only works Ess if you can prove that writing obscure poetry is akin to maltreatment, so far you’ve offered no such proof apart from a vague notion that you know it to be true. The suggestion in your analogy that writing obscure poetry is tantamount to maltreatment is not only fallacious it can also be seen to be offensive by anyone who enjoys poems of that sort from time to time. If you want a truer analogy you need to change it so that both parties water the garden but one uses a hose and the other a watering can, two methods of reaching the same goal and neither undermined by the false claim of negativity. In the revised scenario both would claim that there method was the best, even then the suggestion that the state of the garden could be used to determine the truth of the matter doesn’t make much sense. Gardening, like poetry, has many constituent parts where a myriad of methods and implements can and are used to attain the same results. In poetry, and gardening, hoses and clarity are optional extras that can be used but neither are absolute necessities. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
On the whole garden thing: 1. We stomp on grass. 2. One of the my most lingering aesthetic experiences has been at a rock garden in Japan. These are very carefully cultivated, but not, needless to say, the same way as a Western garden. 3. Another powerful dramatic experience occurred at another rock garden, experimental dance where the dancer kicked and, yes, stomped on the garden. 4. I was in the States in March. My brother has a wonderful house, but I honestly could not tell the difference between his and his neighbor's. I kept thinking, "Do people get confused around here?" They all looked the same. ----------------- You can obviously argue that I've ripped your point out of its context and you would be right. That's my point. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
It doesn't matter if it is subjectively "halffinished" to me, moonbeam. If the puzzle actually is complete, it is complete. But I used the analogy of a puzzle with missing pieces on purpose to represent both some weaknesses and obscurities and difficulties that may come with the "tools" too. This is to say that artwork already has missing and obscure "pieces" by some inevitability, and we all to some extent struggle with that. But when people make it more obscure and confusing on purpose or by neglect, it is like taking a puzzle with many pieces already missing, and deciding to remove, warpe, or do away with more pieces on top of that. There is already enough confusion and obscurity and "missing pieces". But when poets then do it on purpose it only makes it double worse. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Uh, but what do you do with negative space in art? |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Grinch, My analogy works to say a case where a garden is being maltreated and the evidence of the garden contradicts the subjectivity of the man that believes he is doing well by stomping on it. It was meant to represent what happens when subjectivity is made the guiding "rule". It goes to an extreme such as accepting mistreatment as good treatment. I was not trying to represent "obscurity" in that analogy. And I obviously wasn't trying to represent the special exceptions, such Brad's examples. Generalizations are just that: generalizations, not "exceptions". [This message has been edited by Essorant (09-17-2007 10:43 PM).] |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Have you ever chopped the top off a pot plant? Probably not, but trust me on this one. It bushes out and doubles the yield as a result. Pruning happens to be a part of gardening, lovie. Isn't that what C/A is about? Now why don't you quit this and return to the subject of your poem, which, by the way, has been pruned, and works better for it. Don't forget to pick your flowers and enjoy them, too. (Dead-heading--also to the benefit of the plant.) I also happen to enjoy heirloom seed from my father's garden, about which I've written many poems, Essorant. They were not written for you, or posted in this forum to be plucked apart by you with your theories. You might consider the gazing ball, though. It is an interesting garden ornament which came into popular use in the Victorian age. It was especially useful to give the illusion of depth in shallow corners. Just a little something to think about. G'nite good people. I've got a headache now. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: OK I can live with that, your analogy had nothing to do with poetry apart from the fact that you don’t believe that what readers think, subjectively, has any influence on whether a poem is perceived as good or not (or in your words virtuous). So how should we measure the virtue in a poem Ess tell us exactly what you think makes a good poem and what guarantees a bad one then we can recognise it when we read it. |
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