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Essorant
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0 posted 2007-08-19 01:45 PM



Why don't we begin at something very open: metrical verse.

Anyone interested in having some ado with metrical verse?  There will be no special requirement for stanzas or rhyme.  The only requirement is a poetic meter. Hopefully sharing some exchanges of metrical poetry may bring forth some helpful focus and discussion on different aspects of poetic meter (s).

I think this contest should be for two months (September & October).  Take the whole first month to study and work on the poem, and then on the second month, post it here in Critical Analysis, each poem in its own thread, to be received and critiqued.  

Anyone interested in participating?


© Copyright 2007 Essorant - All Rights Reserved
JenniferMaxwell
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1 posted 2007-08-19 01:56 PM


I'll have a go at it, Ess, though I don't really care much for the idea of a contest which seems to smack of having winners and losers. As bad as I am at handling meter, I know without a doubt which group I'd fall into.

How about just calling it a challenge? No winners, no losers, just lots of lovely metered poems and hopefully, enlightening discussion.  

guyoverthere
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2 posted 2007-08-19 02:16 PM


I'm totally in.  Who's judging.  
moonbeam
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3 posted 2007-08-19 04:30 PM


I might be Ess.

If it's to be a contest though I wouldn't be interested in participating unless I was totally sure that the judging was completely anonymous, i.e. the poems were.

I'd also want to know who the judges were.

M

Not A Poet
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4 posted 2007-08-19 05:17 PM


Right. Who here is actually qualified to judge?

Essorant
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5 posted 2007-08-19 09:30 PM


No one shall be called "winner" or "loser".

After the month, when the poems come in, then the whole forum can judge/critique the poems.

I thought in the meantime people may ask any questions they have and share some discussions along the lines of metrical poetry in the spirit of the Contest.



JenniferMaxwell
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6 posted 2007-08-19 09:57 PM


Thanks, Ess, I really wasn't comfortable thinking my work would be "judged" against that of poets with 20, 30 or 40 more years of writing experience than I have. I'll just do the best I can and hope to get a few pointers from those more experienced and learn something along the way.

I decided to do a triolet so I'm studying the two most common forms of meter used in that form. Wish me luck! And thank you for starting this challenge!


Grinch
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7 posted 2007-08-19 10:12 PM



Ess,

Why don’t you post your challenge in the Poetry Challenge forum – after all that’s what it’s there for.


Essorant
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8 posted 2007-08-20 12:42 PM


Jenn

For sure.  That was the intent for making this two months.  I didn't want this to go by quickly, but hope that it may imprint a helpful learning experience, especially on those that may be having difficulty with meter.  

Best Luck with your Triolet.  


Grinch

I posted it in this forum because it is more critical and learning-oriented. And also because I was hoping that we could begin some critical discussion right here in this thread.  


  

moonbeam
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9 posted 2007-08-20 04:53 AM


Thanks for clarifying Ess.

I may even be tempted into my very first triolet!

M

guyoverthere
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10 posted 2007-08-20 08:45 AM


I like the democratic approach to judging.  Sounds fun.  I have some reading to do.  
Not A Poet
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11 posted 2007-08-20 08:59 AM


Triolets can be fun to write. We have done a few here in CA.

Essorant
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12 posted 2007-08-22 07:13 PM


I hope two months isn't too long for your "attention span"



TomMark
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13 posted 2007-08-22 07:54 PM


The dophine happily manipulates
a colorful beach ball with her mate

If I use 'soul mate' to replace mate, then will the 'mate' read as non-streesed?

Essorant
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14 posted 2007-08-22 10:51 PM


I believe the second syllables of both beach ball and soulmate both have unstress (in the sense of "not mainstress"), but therein this may be distinguished in degree, and is also called secondary stress.  

Here is how I scan it: / = stress, x (x) = unstress (including secondary stress or a strong likeness to it)

                  
x    /  x     / x x  x / x  x
The dophine  happily manipulates
        
x   / x x    /    x     x   x     /    x
a colorful beach ball with her (soul)mate

Secondary stress is in between the degree of stress and normal unstress, therefore it easily gets by as used where a stressed or an unstressed syllable is needed in the meter.  

In many-syllabled words such as experimentation, every second syllable from the stress in the word may be used thus as well:

x x x x  / x
experimentation

I would like to know if some of the metermasters read it this way as well.   Hopefully Sid, Pete, Brad, perhaps even Balladeer, may speak up about some of these matters, to help strength the approach to recognizing, interpretating, and practicing these things about meter.


guyoverthere
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15 posted 2007-08-22 11:17 PM


I might be wrong about this TomMark but here goes...

"The dolphine happily manipulates".  
I read it - the DOLPHine HAPpily MANIPuLATES -
I guess you could read it as - the DOLPHine HAPpiLY maNIPuLATES - but I don't naturally stress 'ly' and I don't see why you'd want to.  So if you were going for iambic pentameter, I don't think this first line is a good example.


"a colorful beach ball with her mate".
I read it as - a COLORful BEACH BALL with her MATE.  

This is iambic tetrameter with a hard ending (I think).  I

If you added 'soul' I would read 'soul' and 'mate' both as stressed.

That's just how I see it.

Anyone else?

guyoverthere
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16 posted 2007-08-22 11:30 PM


Thanks Essorant.  I was struggling with 'manipulates' and  'color'.  Good to see I recognized 'with her' as both weak.
I, uhm, respectfully disagree with you on 'beach ball' - I feel as both of those are naturally stressed.  Like 'main man' or 'buddy boy'.  

cynicsRus
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17 posted 2007-08-23 12:23 PM


It's Trimeter (3 feet per line), though not Iambic.
Essorant scans it closest--even the secondary stress on beach ball, which would cause one to think both words are stressed when they're actually not.
If you add "soul" the stress would shift and "mate" would then be less stressed. Again, as Ess has scanned.

Sid

TomMark
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18 posted 2007-08-23 01:42 PM


Heartfull of gratitude to everyone
A wonderful experience began

Essorant
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19 posted 2007-08-24 02:09 PM


That is usually/generally how such compounds or wordpairs seem to work.  But as Derek Attridge says in his book Poetic Rhythm:

"The more strongly a speaker feels that the compound has been newly minted, however, the more likely he or she is to give it two full stresses:


/ x    / x       /    /
Sober-suited    fawn-froth"

When we are not as familiar with the compound or phrase we tend not to pronounce it as casually or loosely.


Essorant
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20 posted 2007-08-24 03:22 PM


Maybe we should begin a collaberative chain-poem in meter, and get everyone to try to write in meter, and then discuss any problems people may have along the way.  We could begin in one kind of meter for a few posts and then change to a different kind of meter.  Each addition to the chain-poem should be no longer than four lines.  

Anyone wish to begin this for us?  I would but I don't have the mental energy right now to come up with a crafty beginning.  

But I will suggest a meter to begin with: IAMBIC METER (any number of iambs).

I hope this may stir up some poetic action    


TomMark
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21 posted 2007-08-24 04:36 PM


Desire
Increses appeal
for beauty ornament
beyond appearance in decor

moonbeam
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22 posted 2007-08-24 05:40 PM


The shutters fall in cold provincial streets.
A drizzle felts the dusk and muffles sound.
And Mr Singh moves slowly to the till,
reluctantly begins to cash the day.

cynicsRus
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23 posted 2007-08-24 07:10 PM


You'd do well to begin with Moonbeam's offering which is almost perfect Iambic Pentameter. It would be interesting to see how many others can keep the meter running, as it were.

Sid

Grinch
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24 posted 2007-08-24 08:24 PM



This cornucopia, his Taj Mahal
That swims in scents of spices from the east
Has one last customer to trip the bell,
To cross another item from his list.

Sorry my meter’s a little broken.



moonbeam
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25 posted 2007-08-25 04:37 AM


The shutters fall in cold provincial streets.
A drizzle felts the dusk and muffles sound.
And Mr Singh moves slowly to the till,
reluctantly begins to cash the day.
This cornucopia, his Taj Mahal
That swims in scents of spices from the east
Has one last customer to trip the bell,
To cross another item from his list.
She comes with just a swish of Ikat silk.
The dusky evening opens as she floats
beside the gutter, drawn along the coils
of garam masala which snake from jars  


Grinch
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Whoville
26 posted 2007-08-25 05:51 AM


The dusk describes the weather and his age,
Her beauty and the falling of their son.
The smile she wears a burka to the sin
That’s wailed from eyes as well as minarets.

moonbeam
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27 posted 2007-08-25 06:36 AM


The shutters fall in cold provincial streets.
A drizzle felts the dusk and muffles sound.
And Mr Singh moves slowly to the till,
reluctantly begins to cash the day.
This cornucopia, his Taj Mahal
That swims in scents of spices from the east
Has one last customer to trip the bell,
To cross another item from his list.
She comes with just a swish of Ikat silk.
The dusky evening opens as she floats
beside the gutter, drawn along the coils
of garam masala which snake from jars.
The dusk describes the weather and his age,
Her beauty and the falling of the son.
The smile she wears a burka to the sin
That's wailed from eyes as well as minarets
which blot an Oldham sky with blood orange
reflections from the underworld of lanes.
She pauses, feels the tilaka, which dots
her conscience, burning on her brow, then sighs

Grinch
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Whoville
28 posted 2007-08-25 06:52 AM


Their shaitan son has slipped and turned the world.
A mocking mot amid mehindi lines
Tattooed upon the haraam in his eyes
An infidelity to scar their lives.

Sorry Moonbeam my meter’s run out, I have a new dishwasher to fit before the match starts and, more importantly, before my wife gets home from work.

Anything to save her precious hands (from gripping my neck).

[This message has been edited by Grinch (08-25-2007 07:34 AM).]

moonbeam
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29 posted 2007-08-25 07:42 AM


The shutters fall in cold provincial streets.
A drizzle felts the dusk and muffles sound.
And Mr Singh moves slowly to the till,
reluctantly begins to cash the day.
This cornucopia, his Taj Mahal
That swims in scents of spices from the east
Has one last customer to trip the bell,
To cross another item from his list.
She comes with just a swish of Ikat silk.
The dusky evening opens as she floats
beside the gutter, drawn along the coils
of garam masala which snake from jars.
The dusk describes the weather and his age,
Her beauty and the falling of the son.
The smile she wears a burka to the sin
That's wailed from eyes as well as minarets
which blot an Oldham sky with blood orange
reflections from the underworld of lanes.
She pauses, feels the tilaka, which dots
her conscience, burning on her brow, then sighs.
Their shaitan son has slipped and turned the world.
A mocking mot amid mehindi lines
Tattooed upon the haraam in his eyes
An infidelity to scar their lives.
But I am worse; self accusation thuds
into her thought as now she quivers hand
upon the door and Shiva in her heart.
There's Singh inside, her husband far away.

(np - it's time somebody else took over anyway; good plumbing     )  Hey, wait!  Match?  You aren't seriously going to let football interfere with this!  Geez.    


Essorant
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30 posted 2007-08-25 02:19 PM


Thanks for beginning this.  It is a full good example of iambic pentameter.

Anyone have any uncertainties about what Grinch and Moonbeam are doing?  

Note that the word in is used in an unstressed position in:


x     /  x    /   x   /    x  /   x    /
The shutters fall in cold provincial streets

But then it is used in a stressed position in:

x  /  x    /   x    / x  x  x    /
upon the door and Shiva in her heart.

That is completely acceptable.  But may cause some confusion for beginners.  I mark it the same as I did secondary stress only because it also involves making a lesser form of stress (an unstress, since in is a normally unstressed word) get by where the meter expects a normal stress.

  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (08-25-2007 03:00 PM).]

moonbeam
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31 posted 2007-08-25 05:04 PM


Yes that's a good point Ess.

I've often had discussions centered around the way in which the same word can take on a completely different stress, depending upon the expectation set up by the words and syntax surrounding it.  I seem to remember Pinsky covers this well in his "The Sounds of Poetry".

"of garam masala which snake from jars"

is perhaps one of the most problematic lines, relying as it does on a "correct" pronunciation of "masala" to stand any chance of being iambic.  Even then, trying to make the "la" a stressed syllable is pretty near impossible.

Coming from the north of England I'd normally pronounce masala, ma SA la - which I am told is incorrect (by snobby Londoners). The correct pronunciation is really dactylic I guess: MAS  a  la

Geez, Ess, I'd have nightmares if I had to think about this stuff every day.

M

Grinch
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32 posted 2007-08-25 05:50 PM


Ess,

quote:
Anyone have any uncertainties about what Grinch and Moonbeam are doing?


Yes, me!

I have absolutely no idea what I’m doing when it comes to meter or poetry in general if it comes to that, I count syllables and listen for the ‘tune’. If it sounds about right I’m happy, if it doesn’t sound right I play around with it until it does but they could be mora, iambs, trochees, spondees or pterodactyls for all I know.




moonbeam
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33 posted 2007-08-26 04:33 AM




quote:
I have absolutely no idea what I’m doing when it comes to meter or poetry in general if it comes to that, I count syllables and listen for the ‘tune’. If it sounds about right I’m happy, if it doesn’t sound right I play around with it until it does but they could be mora, iambs, trochees, spondees or pterodactyls for all I know.

Fibber!

Anyway you are in good company, neither did Dylan T.

M


Brad
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34 posted 2007-08-26 04:43 AM


Regardless, I really like this.
Essorant
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35 posted 2007-08-26 05:18 PM


Indeed it is true that hearing is the most important part.  If you don't think you hear and know what syllable has the stress in a word, try putting extraordinary emphasis on different syllables of the word and see the difference.  For example, in the word horrible you hear the stress pattern HORrible so often that you are so used to the sound that it may be difficult to distinguish what you naturally put stress on every time you use the word.  But when you try to pronounce the word as horRIble, or horriBLE, with extraordinary force on those other syllables, you hear how incorrectly the word sounds and the correct one to know as having the stress becomes more distinctly acknowledged in the mind.  

The other thing is to remember the group of one-syllable words that never normally have stress:

-Prepositions:  of, to, from, at, on, in (etc)
-articles:  the, a, an,
-demonstratives: this, that, these, those,
-conjunctions: but, when, and, (etc.)
-pronouns: he, she, it, they (etc.)
-auxiliary verbs (verbs used with other verbs): will, may, have, can,
-auxiliary adverbs (adverbs usually used with adjectives or other adverbs): so
-Forms of the verb be: am, is, was, are, were.

But as we mentioned, in further little points, there are exceptions and flexibilities, where poets may make an unstressed syllable get by where the meter technically expects a stressed one or stressed one where it expects an unstressed one.

Now I think that is the most of meter, in general.  No beginners should be deceived into believing that meter is very complex.  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (08-27-2007 09:38 AM).]

TomMark
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36 posted 2007-08-26 06:47 PM


Essorant
Thank you very much for the little lesson. Great help though. Do write more..I take notes of all your guys commment including Brad's.

Grinch
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Whoville
37 posted 2007-08-26 07:02 PM



quote:
No beginners should be deceived into believing that meter is very complex.


Or be deceived into believing that understanding scansion and meter is very important when writing poetry.

Moonbeam suggested I might be telling a white lie when I said I don’t understand scansion and meter, he was half right, I understand it but don’t find that understanding useful when writing.


Essorant
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38 posted 2007-08-26 07:33 PM


Remember Grinch this wasn't about any poetry in general.  But specifically dedicated to writing and understanding metrical poetry.  

There is no short of people that are willing to put off or ignore learning about meter, so why try to encourage it in any way in this thread, where we were pursuing metrical poetry and learning about meter itself?

Also, just because you don't find such learning useful when writing, doesn't mean it is the same for everyone else.  I know that it is not the same for me.



Grinch
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39 posted 2007-08-26 08:42 PM



quote:
There is no short of people that are willing to put off or ignore learning about meter, so why try to encourage it in any way in this thread that, where we were pursuing metrical poetry and learning about meter itself?


I wasn’t aware that I was encouraging people not to learn about meter and I’m pretty certain people wouldn’t listen even if I were. I was just trying to point out that an understanding of the mechanics of scansion and meter, in my opinion, isn’t necessary to write metrically and that meter is an attempt to describe the structure of the written word rather than a prescription for writing good poetry.

If I came across as being negative as far as this thread goes I apologise, I’ll sit back and read and keep my thoughts to myself so you can get on with it.


Essorant
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40 posted 2007-08-26 08:49 PM


No, your point is welcome.  But whether learning these things is necessary or not (you said very important earlier), it is helpful and improving, and the more so the better the learning is developed, and therefore is or may be very important to doing well, even if not equally so for everyone.  In which way are people being deceived to be inspired to hold learning and understanding meter as very important to metrical poetry?   I wouldn't call it the "prescription", but I would call it part of a prescription to writing good poetry, that works in conjunction with other things.  And when one does very well with it, it is that much the better part of a prescription as well.    I think the ground is stronger in the middle avoiding the extreme of more or less only going by how it vaguely "feels" and the extreme of trying to measure every mote of sound.  

I also think you are a bit mistaken to say that meter is a description of the structure of the word.  That may be part of meter, but meter is more specially about the the pattern of stresses (speaking specially in context of the English language) which are the beat and rhythm of the poem.  It is the music of the poem.  Without it the the poem becomes much less poetic, since it is greatly assimilated to every other manner of using the language that already does not include a special poetic meter.


[This message has been edited by Essorant (08-26-2007 10:26 PM).]

Essorant
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41 posted 2007-08-27 11:07 AM


People often say they have difficulties and problems with meter, and yet when we try to deal directly with meter thus, they don't ask any questions or explain what problems they are having.  What help may this be if we don't know specifically where the help is needed?  



TomMark
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42 posted 2007-08-27 11:43 AM


some words the stress is obvious while others are not..how I know it? if there is a rule or check dictionary or experience?

like the word "whoever" how is streesed or if there is a list of commently used words we need pay attention?

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43 posted 2007-08-27 12:51 PM


Ess

I don't think it's as simple as that.  A lot of the time people write metrically instinctively, but don't know the technical terms for what they are doing.  Those who can't write metrically don't know the questions to ask because they don't know why they can't.

And you and Grinch are both right I think, no time now to expound.

Tom/Ess

Ess will no doubt correct me if I'm wrong, but it simply isn't possible to give a definite list of words saying this is stressed this is not.  

Words have different "weights" of stress depending upon context and expectations set up by an established metrical pattern.

So in a broadly iambic poem this line might be stressed as:

hold OUT your HAND to ME

or maybe:

HOLD OUT your HAND to ME

But in a dactylic poem the same words might well be stressed:

JEN   i   fer   JEN   i   fer   HOLD  out   your   HAND   to   me


... er, over to you Ess.

M

Perhaps a list of the main stress patterns with examples might be a good start?

Essorant
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44 posted 2007-08-27 12:53 PM


TM

Very good question.

The first thing I would recommend is of course listening as carefully as possible.  As mentioned before try putting more force on some of the other syllables.  If the word has three syllables, and the second or third syllable just doesn't sound right with extra force added on them, then you know the first syllable is the one with the stress.  With the word whoever, pronounce it first casually whoever.   Then try pronouncing it WHOever, and then whoEVer, and then whoevER.  Which one sounds most correct?  Your tongue already knows which one is stressed in normal and casual speech.  It just takes a while for the mind to recognize and interpret it correctly.    

If you are still not sure, however, you can check in the dictionary for the standard/general pronunciation.  At dictionary.com, the stressed syllable is the syllable represented by the bolded letters in the brackets:  Thus, Whoever [hoo-ev-er], with ev indicating the stress.

There are some generalizations about stress that may be followed as well.  To some extent some memorization helps, but your chief guide should be your ear, listening carefully for the correct force of sound that betokens where the stress is in a word.

Here are some links that may help:

WordStress (Stressed Syllables) or Rules of Word Stress in English


Essorant
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45 posted 2007-08-27 01:30 PM


Moonbeam,

I believe the flexibility in the phrase hold out, is because it has unstress (not main stress) on the word hold, but with a degree that may be called secondary stress.  It usually may not be necessary to distinguish secondary stress, except that it has a little bit more stress than normal unstress.  In familiar verbal expressions such as "hold out" "hold on" "turn off" "turn on" etc. the main stress is always generally on the second word "up" "on" "off" etc.  That is just a special manner and distinction for those kinds of phrases.  It is not very hard to remember or get the instinctual "feel" for.

Also the word me is normally unstressed, unless you specially put special emphasis on it.  For example "It was him, not me !".  But normally such as in a phrase as "He gave the book to me yesterday", the word me is unstressed.  It fits into the special group of onesyllable words mentioned earlier that normally never take main stress.  

Despite exceptions, these things may be taken as general rules.

Meter is not something made up on the spot.  It is already built into the language, with stability and strength.  When we use it in the form of a poetic meter, we are not "making it up" either.  We don't decide where the normal stress goes in a word.  That is already decided by the our language/dialect.  What we do though is use our knowledge of where the stresses are in words (and phrases) and then use these in such a way that their stresses end up in a special pattern to give them regularity and consistency in rhythm and altogether a musical beat.  Therefore the beginner need not have doubt that meter has stability and general "rules", despite any exceptions.  


[This message has been edited by Essorant (08-27-2007 02:23 PM).]

moonbeam
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46 posted 2007-08-27 02:22 PM


Ess

Yes I see what you mean.

I have to admit though that when I've tried to study meter in a very rigorous analytical way, i.e. ascribing "rules" and "exceptions" I have personally begun to find it unhelpful simply because the "exceptions" seem so slippery and numerous that the value of the rule becomes diluted to the point where it is entirely neutered. For instance "me" at the end of an iambic line is much more likely to have a heavier stress than "me" in the centre of the same line.

Pinsky puts it quite well:

"... the stress on a syllable in English is not inherent in the sound, but relative.  A syllable is stressed or unstressed only in relation to the syllables around it. As a corollary, accent is a matter of degree."

M

Essorant
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47 posted 2007-08-27 02:42 PM


Well we are not talking about syllables on their own.  We are talking about them in words and in phrases.  No matter where you put the word horrible in your poem, it still has the main stress on the first syllable.  You can't change that, unless you use unnatural emphasis, making your reader somehow pronounce it as horRIble, or HorriBLE.  

The word me is also not very questionable.  It doesn't normally have main stress, but it may be given extra degrees of force that allow it to get by and be treated as having more stress than it normally does because we put it special positions where we want it to have more emphasis, such as at the end of the line, or as a contrast with another person, or with loudness "me!", but all of those are understandable exceptions.  I don't see anything "slippery" about them.  The rule still stands that it doesn't normally have main stress.


moonbeam
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48 posted 2007-08-27 04:03 PM


I see what you are saying Ess, and what you say in relation to multisyllabic words is no doubt usually true, although again, the weight of the stresses will often depend on context.

But I was talking about the stress pattern within a line, and I suppose, perhaps wrongly, I have always tended to analyse at the syllable level.  For instance, the word "it" is both a word and a syllable:

Thus we have "bitter" and "reiterate" where "it" is stressed, as it is in "she had wit".  

But in "italicized" or "rabbit" or "Pat had it", it is unstressed.

(Courtesy of Pinsky again)

M

Essorant
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49 posted 2007-08-27 05:10 PM


For sure.  Each needs to be looked at differently, either as a word if it is a word or part of a word if it is part of a word, taking stress or not taking stress.  But the stress is generally stable and fixed for each particular case.  And we may certainly say which syllable normally and generally takes stress as a rule in a word.  And it doesn't matter where that word shows up, but it will still generally have that stress as a rule, despite exceptions.  

The word it, just like me is one of the one-syllable function-words that is always unstressed, unless it is used in some very uncasual or specially emphatic way.  

The syllable "it" in reiterate, as a rule always takes stress.  And the syllable "it" in italicized is always generally unstressed.  No matter where you put these, the the stress shall always be thus.  And even though they may be pronounced in a somewhat specially modified, uncasual, or emphatic way, to make the stress appear other than it normally is, the overall most natural and standard way shall still always predominate.  Even from one English dialect to another, the difference of the dialect often doesn't seem to change where the stress is.  When it does, it may be regarded as an exception, but otherwise I think stress may be taken as a fairly stable rule.



Grinch
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50 posted 2007-08-27 07:40 PM


For anyone still reading this thread here’s my version:

Scansion is the description of the metrical layout (if any) of a line of poetry, don’t use it to construct your poem, use it to check your poem after it’s written.

Feet are those things attached to your ankles but in scansion they also refer to the pattern of stressed and unstressed syllables. The iamb from iambic pentameter for instance is a metrical foot two syllables in length where the first syllable is unstressed and the second syllable is stressed.

Stress is one way of measuring meter using syllables and their relative emphasis, to all intents and purposes if you’re just starting out, you can forget variations of stress and treat the system as binary – it’s either stressed or unstressed. The easiest way to judge whether a syllable is stressed is to measure it against the syllables around it. If that fails turn your cap sideways or backwards and say the line out loud using the best impression of a rap star you can muster. The stressed syllables are the ones with the most emphasis.

Still don’t get it?

No problem

Heard of Jim Morrison’s song ‘Light my fire’? Do you know the tune? Well here are the first two lines, altogether now:

You know that it would be untrue,
You know that I would be a liar,

If your version follows the same tune mine does:

de dum de dum de dum de duuuuuum
de dum de dum de dum de duuuuuum

You should be stressing the syllables on the dum beat and have just found the iambic tune (unstressed\stressed feet).  Unfortunately you’ve also just given the word ‘it’ stress which might upset some people.

Now for the hard bit, here are the next four lines, ignore the words just try to write down the tune using de for the unstressed and dum to denote the stressed beat

If I was to say to you
Girl, we couldn’t get much higher.
Come on, baby, light my fire.
Try to set the night on fire.

With any luck your version will look like mine:

dum de dum de dum de dum
dum de dum de dum de dum
dum de dum de dum de dum
dum de dum de dum de dum

Now we have stressed\unstressed feet or trochee so you now know the trochaic tune.

For anyone still reading and\or interested the meter is tetrameter in all six lines.

Hope that helps, if not just ignore it.


Brad
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51 posted 2007-08-27 07:45 PM


This is starting to get annoying. Where'd the poetry go?

Stress:

I give you a present.

I present you a gift.

If you can't hear the difference, you aren't speaking English.

C'mon guys, start talking poetry.

Grinch
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52 posted 2007-08-27 08:25 PM



quote:
This is starting to get annoying. Where'd the poetry go?

Stress:

I give you a present.

I present you a gift.

If you can't hear the difference, you aren't speaking English.

C'mon guys, start talking poetry.


Here you go Brad, just for you.

Mary had a little iamb
She swore it had some feet
But when she tried to stress the fact
You should have heard Brad bleat.




Essorant
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53 posted 2007-08-27 08:26 PM


Alright here is my last nutshell approach to stress.  If anyone still has problems any they need to ask questions and give attempts at writing meter, and then we may better see where and how we may be able to help if possible.


1.  Find the main stress of a word.  If the word is a onesyllable word, the word itself has the stress: DOG.    If it has more than one syllable, only one of the syllables has the stress :  HORrible  (All other syllables are unstressed.)

2.  Remember the group of onesyllable "function words" mentioned above that normally never have a main stress: (a, the, of, to, from, I, me, is, are, etc).   These are the only words that normally don't have main stress at all.  
  
3.   Special details/exceptions:

     -A onesyllable "function word" may be placed where a stressed syllable is expected in the meter, How do we know when this may be done?  You know it may be done if you wish to put special emphasis on it, or if it is very important and necessary to the sentence structure.  

     -In long words, every second syllable away from the stressed syllable in the word may stand where a stressed syllable is expected in the meter.   These syllables simply have an alternating manner which is native to the language.  (less, more, less, more).  Therefore the second one may get by as stress, even though it doesn't have the main stress. Thus in expecTATion, ex the second syllable away from the stress fills a role of stress, even though it is not the main stress.  

  -In familiar verb phrases such as "turn off" "set up", "hold on" the main stress is on "off", "up", "on".


[This message has been edited by Essorant (08-27-2007 10:09 PM).]

moonbeam
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54 posted 2007-08-28 05:23 AM


Like swimming: what you do is learn the strokes,
the way the brain absorbs each element,
each flex, contraction taken and transferred
to sinew, muscle, spine, until you reach
beyond the rule, beyond the math, to find
yourself forgetting all you learned, and in
forgetting, learning all you need.

Essorant
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55 posted 2007-08-28 05:44 PM


If one for hardness of the gates
Turn back for fear it always grates,
He never meets and has denied
The garden on the other side.


moonbeam
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56 posted 2007-08-28 05:54 PM


Iambic tetrameter Ess?

And a very well put sentiment with which I entirely agree.

M

Essorant
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57 posted 2007-08-28 07:39 PM


Yes.  Thanks Moonbeam.  Tetrameter is actually my favourite to write in.
Just for amusement, here is how I scan my own verse.


x   /  x   /   x   x  x    /  
If one for hardness of the gates
x    /    x    /   x  /  x    /
Turn back for fear it always grates,
x   / x   /     x  /   x  /
He never meets and has denied
x    /  x  x  x   / x    /
The garden on the other side.

The red x's indicate where an unstressed syllable is pretending to be a main stress.  And the word "turn" is only unstressed  because it is not acting by itself, but makes one of those special pairs ("turn back" "set up" "hold on" etc.) that takes the main stress on the second element (in this case "back")


Essorant
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58 posted 2007-09-03 12:04 PM


How are your poems going?

I am having difficulty at beginning a poem.      


TomMark
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59 posted 2007-09-03 02:18 PM


I OPENED the GATE to GIVE a PEEK
BeHIND a ROSE out JUMP a SHRIEK

Essorant
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60 posted 2007-09-03 02:59 PM


Almost perfect, except the word opened is two syllables: OPened.


Essorant
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61 posted 2007-09-03 04:18 PM


Behind this rose in secrecy
of many things is kept the key.

Essorant
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62 posted 2007-09-04 01:14 AM


And many farers come to me
And ask the rouns of victory
The rouns of love, the rouns of lore
The rouns of weal, the rouns of war
But nothing from my answerhoard
Shall I uplift to any lord
Or lady come to me in need:
For nothing nothing is the meed.
But whoso gives his hearty cares
To write a poem, whoever dares,
This enterprise of price pursue
His due devoir in deed to do
Whoever seeks, with this in mind,
The answers truly he shall find.
For him that comes with poetry
For him I turn to turn the key.


TomMark
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63 posted 2007-09-04 01:19 AM


His tampting tale has calmed me down
Then silent shadows fly around

Not A Poet
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64 posted 2007-09-04 11:27 AM


Perfect example, Ess, of what you have been trying to explain all along. The rhymes, though not always perfect, are close enough to be unnoticeable. There are points where secondary stress is relied upon. Again, it falls so naturaly as to be unnoticed. Finally, I found one line with an extra syllable (the first whoever). According to Poe, the preceeding syllable, or the two syllable combination, is short enough to be used in the place of a single unstresses syllable. I believe it works very well as such in this case. It is interesting that the same word is used later in a try iambic line. Yep, this is a good example to study. Thanks.

TomMark
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65 posted 2007-09-04 12:44 PM


They shade the flower's smiling scent
They chase the dews and flat their tent
A butterfly with broken wings
is flapping leaves of dying bent

Essorant
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66 posted 2007-09-04 01:31 PM


Thanks Pete.  

Do you mean using the word as if the v is omitted: whoe'er?

Not A Poet
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67 posted 2007-09-04 04:20 PM


Not really as that requires the stress on who instead of ev which I don't like. I'm really looking at the combination of poem whoever and scanning it thus.

To WRITE/ a POEM/, whoEV/er DARES,

I know, poem should be two syllables but the second is really a short one. In fact, I posted one a long time ago using poem as two and about half the readers found it wrong as they read poem as one syllable. Anyway, it just fits well that way, for me anyway.



Essorant
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68 posted 2007-09-04 04:43 PM


I completely forgot that poem has two syllables.  No wonder it seemed off.  

TomMark
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69 posted 2007-09-04 08:46 PM


A single poem blooming red
A single sigh for bleeding thread

Essorant
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70 posted 2007-09-04 09:55 PM


These poematicalities
are dizzying realities.



Essorant
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71 posted 2007-09-05 12:50 PM


By the way, poematicalities may sound very fanciful, but such a word has legitimacy, since the Greek noun that poem comes from is among the neuter nouns that have -t- in some of their cases, as gramma "letter" but grammata "letters", soma "body", but somata "bodies", onoma "name" onomata "names", mathemata "learnings, sciences", dramata "dramas", pragmata "deeds, things". Thus poema "poem", and poemata "poems" etc. The suffix -ic is then added to the form with -t- to make an adjective: grammatic, somatic, onomatic,  mathematic, dramatic, pragmatic, poematic.  The rest is from mixing latin elements -al and -ity.   Thus we have not just grammatic and pragmatic, but grammatical and pragmatical, then may turn them into abstract nouns with -ity as grammaticality and pragmaticality.


TomMark
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72 posted 2007-09-05 01:00 AM


To keep my count in accurate
I struggle quite in desperate

TomMark
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73 posted 2007-09-05 01:16 AM


Thank you Essorant for the little lecture. I indeed saw the fancy part.

moonbeam
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74 posted 2007-09-05 07:35 AM


Poematicalities
May sound very fanciful
But some would say that ok is
Contortions presidential

Essorant
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75 posted 2007-09-06 10:14 PM



But some would say that ok is
Contortions presidential



Unfold the matter that ye speak about
To void from minds the shade of any doubt.


Essorant
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76 posted 2007-09-07 01:13 AM


Now death has numb the forum-room
And silence brushes with her broom.


TomMark
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77 posted 2007-09-07 02:23 AM


Before villainous second touch
A shadow rides to fly away

Yours is beautiful. Mine, not good. I'll try think of something tomorrow.

Essorant
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78 posted 2007-09-07 07:55 AM


I'm not sure about that Tom.  I think yours is almost perfect.  You are proving a good understanding of meter.

TomMark
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79 posted 2007-09-07 11:35 PM


Thank you very much, Sir Essorant, for those nice words. I count the meters more careful than I count my money. I sent each line to the syllable counter to check if I am right and check the tress in dictioanry. (what a struggle!!!)

I felt that the meters and iamb ( or other fixed formular) limited my expression or just becasue my English is too bad? but Still I try to get it becasue it is basic part of poem.


Essorant
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80 posted 2007-10-25 01:19 PM


Jennifer,

How is your triolet coming along?  The contest is almost done!



Essorant
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81 posted 2007-10-25 02:10 PM


For extra honours: write a Halloween poem in meter.
oceanvu2
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82 posted 2007-10-25 06:42 PM


This thread, while serious in intent and occasionally cogent, is one of the funniest things I've read since "Alice's Adventure's in Wonderland."

When does a reader
become engaged by meter?
If there's something to the poem,
Meter can stay ho-em.

Reverentially, Jim

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