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Announcement: Want to be Mentored?
| Critical Analysis #2 |
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Announcement: Want to be Mentored? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I've been having a conversation with Jim (Oceanvu2) and he's interested in helping out a lot more. For the moment, we've decided to try a small mentoring program. Jim is an older chap and he's been through the academic and/or publishing rigamarole more than once. He has quite a background (He can tell you more.), and I think he can certainly give a few pointers here and there if you're just starting out on this thing and actively interested in improving your writing. So, what is a mentor? It's a wonderful little word because it's so darn vague. Essentially, the idea is to move beyond mechanics and metrics and try to see where you can go and what you can do with your writing. The fun stuff if you know what I mean (not that mechanics and metrics aren't fun.). One of the weaknesses of this forum is that it's simply not designed to concentrate on individual poems for very long. Read one, give advice, move on and so on. This is a strength in that it can give you, we hope, a fairly honest reaction to your work, but it limits the amount of quality time we can give to one or two poems. By we here, of course, I mean everybody who participates. Another strength, sometimes, is that we move beyond the poems themselves and discuss more abstract issues with poetry (free verse v. meter being the most obvious and most popular). But, let's face it, that doesn't always help you improve that particular piece of verse. So, with Jim's help here, we're going to try out this mentoring thing. If you're interested please e-mail me or Jim or both (preferably both -- I want to know what's happening) and let's see how it goes. Thanks. [This message has been edited by Brad (07-17-2007 05:17 PM).] |
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| © Copyright 2007 Brad - All Rights Reserved | |||
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Hi there. Thank you Brad for posting this. I'm putting up this response to make email contact easy within the context of this thread. Anyone interested can hit the "envelope" icon in this post and reach me. The mentoring possibility is open to anyone. There is no selection process or criteria. Best, Jim  |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
My email's on it's way. |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
Mine too. “Well all the apostles, they’re sittin’ on the swings, sayin’ I’d sell off my savior for a set of new rings.” |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Brad and Jim what a great idea. M |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Bonam fortunam |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Hi Moonbeam! I think, though I'm not sure, that you have raised this notion of elevating the level of conversation before, and possibly got smacked. Just trying to extrapolate from what I read. I can't email you, and your privacy is fine by me. This might be an appropriate thread for additional comment. You are one very, very bright light on the Christmas tree. Best, Jim |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Please teach Ed Grim to use Meter and Rhyme |
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Tomer Senior Member
since 2002-06-28
Posts 1168Michigan |
Hey Brad- I have sent both you and Jim an e-mail but have yet to hear from either of you. I'm just making sure you got it? I'm not sure if my e-mail's went through. If you could just let me know, I would appreciate it. Thanks! Tomer |
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ChristianSpeaks Member
since 2006-05-18
Posts 396Iowa, USA |
Yeah me too!!! When does the fun begin? Moonbeam - Nice to see you back. Party at my house. Dane |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Hi, Tomer and Dane! My bad! I think I may have lost some emails while trying to set up a group file on Yahoo. This is brand new for me, too. Just sent you both an email. It will come from Debbie Aitken, I think. (returning from Yahoo) Ah, there you are. I sent the both of my original messages to myself, which didn't do you guys much good! I'll get better at it. Apologies. Also, I'll figure out the identities thing so you stop recieving e's from this curious Debbie person. Debbie is my wife. I really am Jim Aitken, though on the internet you never know. Best, Jim Aitken |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
How is the mentoring going? |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Jim seems to be among the missing. Has anyone heard from him recently? I hope he's ok and not sick or anything. Brad, maybe you might know since you were observing the mentoring program? |
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Bronzeage Member
since 2007-07-20
Posts 197 |
If you need an extra hand, I'm in. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Hold on, guys. The response may have a been a little overwhelming so he may be taking a break or he may be busy with family stuff (You guys know) or he may be on a trip or something. This is going to happen when silly, little things like life interfere with the development and honing of poetry. What'cha gonna do? |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
How many people have signed up for mentoring Brad? "There's a blaze of light in every word |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Are there just too many for one person to cope with? If it makes it any easier I don't mind dropping out. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Does anyone know where Not A Poet is been? I haven't seen him around here for a long time. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Hi Essorant. Pete posted in the Evolution haiku thread yesterday. It seems very strange that no one not even the moderators seem to know what happened to Jim. I’m sure everyone is as concerned about him as I am. If anyone should hear from him it would be greatly appreciated by all if you’d just let us know he’s ok. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Last time I checked, he was still sick. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
As a quiet participant of the mentor program--I'd like to think it's going well. For the curious, though, I'd like to say that it does not involve daily contact, but I have found Jim's advice extremely helpful--but I think that perhaps, due to cirucumstance, maybe a "workgroups" room could be established? I know we all want Jim to get better soon--and honestly I don't know the workings of the mentorship program beyond his help thus far--but maybe a yahoo group or msn type thing might be helpful, with a list of volunteer mentors for people to choose from...??? I realize that could be done here, but I think privacy is a great part of the value. I dunno, Brad, I'm blowing bubbles here. Whaddya think?  and Jim? *be well*  |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
I’d like to think it’s going well also, but when some participants don’t receive a response from the mentor or the moderator supervising the program for weeks and are left wondering what’s going on, is the mentor ill, have they’ve been dropped, did they cause an offense, overburden the mentor, etc., then I hardly think one can say the program is going well. A mentoring program is based on trust, mutual respect and open communication. Using those criteria, it seems to me the program has failed. Feel better soon, Jim. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Jennifer and Karen, Why don't you both try it? This is obviously not meant to sidestep Jim -- I have no doubt that he'll do what he can -- but I found these last two posts mildly musing. Put your time where your fingers are. Interested? |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
at MENTORING? I'm not qualified, Brad. (check your e mail) And I've already been mentored by Jim, quite helpfully too. (Now I just have to WRITE it. ARGGGHHH) (I swear, Jim, when the kids start school and get the hell outta my air conditioned study, I'm ON it. Got the outline now, thanks to you!)  Sorry, Brad. But I'm NOT writing bigger books now. *cracking up* |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
No offense, Brad, but I really don’t think you’re the right person to be overseeing this program if it should continue. Your responses come across as flippant, evasive, and condescending. That doesn’t set well with me at all especially when there are young, vulnerable people in the program who could very easily be hurt, mislead or taken advantage of. You may know Karen well, and I’m sure she really is a lovely person, but you sure don’t know me. I could be a 45 year old male pedophile posing as a young woman. Give that some thought before you so casually ask or allow people you really don’t know to become mentors. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
A group e mail would be a safeguard against bad behavior, Jen. My correspondence with Jim was monitored by (or shared with) Brad--and I think it's good plan. The first letter I received from Jim voiced that very concern, so he garnered my immediate respect for that consideration, as I replied that I also had a maternal streak that is fiercely protective of our younger members. The fact that you thought of that just further qualified you for the job! (I'm skittish about trying it myself, because my own style really is very casual, and can be construed as flippant--if not downright loose.) But trust that I do have a more serious side--though I still think that someone who has a better knowledge of formal styles of poetry would make the better mentor. I'm not very reliable either--my online time could be interrupted by health issues as well. But you make a good point about safeguard measures. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I don't see why you don't incorporate this into this forum. To hide it in e-mail or take it to segregation and privacy just seems to avoid undertaking to make this forum much better by incorporating mentoring alongside critique. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Karen, don't sell yourself short. First of all you ARE a wonderful poet. Secondly, you gave me some great suggestions last fall on my work and you did so in a very nurturing way. Maybe mentor is the wrong word for what a lot of us are looking for. It sounds like an intense and long term commitment when perhaps what we really need is just someone to bounce ideas off every once in a while. I know sometimes I'd just like to get another quick point of view on a piece before I post it, find out if there any glaring errors I've missed, silly phrases like my stygian abyss or how I might rephrase I line I'm having trouble with. Maybe that's something you'd like to consider doing at some point? |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
I think that’s a good idea, Essorant. The only drawbacks I see right off might be that those new to the forum might not realize it’s a one on one mentoring situation and post in the thread. And, I know there are some/many who feel more comfortable working on a piece privately. Once you develop a good working relationship with a mentor you’re more open to sharing thoughts and ideas that perhaps you’d rather not post in a public forum. In other words, posting in a public forum might make you feel a little hesitant about revealing what you actually think. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I think the problem with putting it all out in the open is the potential for too much input and a general tendency for the old argument of free verse vs. form. (No offense meant and I hope none is taken.) But as I said to Brad, I've been asking for mentoring for years--and getting it. My entire "method" was simply to study a poet at Pip I admire, and then write them--or if their e mail isn't availabe--ask them to write me and just ask them to take a look at whatever it is I was working on. Balladeer was extremely helpful in that regard (as I said many times) and I blatantly stole some signature moves from Christopher and Michael Anderson. Kamla, for a while, helped me out with great critique (but people do get busy) and then there was the duets--I learned a lot about how someone writes by working with them. That said, I'm not saying I wanna do any of that all over again.  I'm just suggesting that perhaps a more casual approach might work better here. And Jen, you are not only talented, that was really sweet of you to say. (Don't cringe, I'm about to hug you. ) And yes, I agree that there is something about the word "mentor"--it makes me feel old and even more arthritic. (cracking myself up again)Coffeeeeeeeeeeee... You guys stay loose! Ta.  |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
I understand what you’re saying, Karen, about the too much input. I’ve seen instances where people were put on the defensive and raked over the coals simply because of different points of view. Also, as you said, simply asking for help or advice is one way to go. Most people are willing to offer a little input when asked. The only problem is that pm’s from pip are email that reveal the sender’s email address and some of us would prefer not to reveal ours and, of course, it's never a good idea to have younger poets revealing theirs to people they don’t know. Asking permission to email is a courtesy and a safety precaution. Perhaps the system could be modified so that one could send and respond to pm's without revealing their email address unless they choose to do so? |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
You are all right - especially Ess and Jenn .Brad is right about Jenn and Karen being potential mentors. I don’t much like that word either, with its Odysseus connotation and the implication of ancient wisdom! How about “Poetic, Rhythmic And Technical Tutor” - we could simply use the acronym for brevity. Ess has hit the nail on the head with: “I don't see why you don't incorporate this into this forum. To hide it in e-mail or take it to segregation and privacy just seems to avoid undertaking to make this forum much better by incorporating mentoring alongside critique.” And Jenn is quite right to point out one of the hazards of putting relatively unknown “older” mentors, presumably implicitly “vetted and approved” by the moderators of PiP in touch with, say, young teens. Not good, Brad and Pete. E-mail also has other drawbacks: It tends to get lost. It leads to temporal confusion. It encourages possibly distracting chattiness. It prevents interception of crazy advice. It leads to delays, irritation and demotivation when one party doesn’t respond. It prevents other people from learning from watching the mentoring process. It prevents other people from watching and judging the ability/temperament of the mentor to see if they might be interested too. All these shortcomings could be overcome if the exchange of ideas was public. And this is what I assumed might happen when Brad first announced the idea. This thread: /pip/Forum28/HTML/001647-2.html was my feeble attempt to help someone. From my point of view, and the corollary of what Jen was saying, I found that being forced by Pete’s rather confrontational attitude in the thread link above to resort to e-mail, made the process of helping Rhia quite a lot more difficult as I felt uncomfortable corresponding privately with a young teen girl (sorry Rhia you were very professional, but there it is!). Perhaps that’s my fault for being a 50 year old married man. Unfortunately in that thread Pete as good as threw down a gauntlet with his “fair game” comment to the effect that interference and indeed challenge was not only permissible but actually encouraged. My own view at the time was that this was a pretty silly and immature attitude which could have easily been tempered to a “let’s give the two of them a chance guys”. It was a shame, and a missed opportunity. It seems that the opportunity might be returning again which I, for one, applaud. CA is now in the workshop forum section (great step forward Ron) and I personally think that having a few one-to-one private threads where “mentor” and “mentored” interact together in whatever way they choose is entirely consistent with a workshop environment and to the benefit of all who participate in the forum. Could the thread be “locked” to exclude everyone (including interfering moderators  ) else from posting?Monitoring of the thread could still take place by both moderators and, informally by other members, and it would be a condition that the mentor would accept all e-mails from moderators of PiP so that particular idiocies or any obvious abuses could be addressed privately. If the mentor became sick or vanished, there would be the possibility that a new mentor could be found to take over who would have the full history of the exchange, and thus avoid disappointment to the mentored person. Right now I have no idea how Jim is performing as a mentor, or whether I’d feel comfortable working with him. How much better would it be to see him in action and to make that judgement before wasting his time. Just my opinion(s) as always. M PS If, as I suspect, Ron will have technical problems with the concept of barring all but two members from having access to a thread, then surely a subject line such as "Mentor Thread #1 PLEASE DO NOT POST TO THIS THREAD" would deter all but the most determined idiot. And, in the unlikely event that there are in fact such specimens out there in cyberspace , our rapid response moderators would just have to be fast on the delete button.[This message has been edited by moonbeam (08-13-2007 12:48 PM).] |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
quote: I've been talking to Jim ever since he joined and I can tell you that he's a stand-up guy. He helped me out a great deal, so you shouldn't worry about how helpful he is. I think he's a damn good mentor. That's just my opinion though. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Edward With respect that's not the point. He may be what YOU need as a mentor at this stage in your development. YOU may relate to him very well person to person. That doesn't mean to say that I would. So many variables. That's why I said that Jenn and Karen could make excellent mentors, their style and approach might suit someone perfectly, where Jim's might not. I'm glad he's doing it for you Edward. He probably wouldn't for instance do it for Brad - Harold Bloom would suit him perfectly! Heh. M [This message has been edited by moonbeam (08-14-2007 12:21 PM).] |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
quote: Well M, how can I possibly know what you need? I don't really know you or your writing or anything about you. All I can do is offer my opinion and you do with it what you will. And yes, Karen would make an excellent mentor. "Well I wish that you would cheat with someone, 'cause you're like diggin' holes in water and we know that can't be done." |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Why don’t you just run the mentoring scheme the same way Sharon (Poet deVine) did it on the two previous occasions a mentoring scheme was run? It’ll save re-inventing the wheel, overloading one person who was kind enough to give up his time and allows those people being mentored to choose a mentor that they think can help them most in whatever area they’re trying to improve. She even built safeguards into the system so both parties felt secure. /pip/Forum3/HTML/000176.html /pip/Forum3/HTML/000175.html |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
That sounds fine Grinch as a way of selecting mentors and mentored in a program that I assume was conducted by e-mail. It doesn't really address the main issue highlighted above though, which is the potential benefits of conducting mentoring/teaching/mutual development in a public arena as opposed to in private. I'd also suggest that if a mentoring thread was started in public then Sharon's selection process, excellent as it seems, might become redundant. What I have in mind is a meeting place thread, a single thread like a clearing house where people who had seen the (hopefully successful) one-to-one mentoring threads could either offer their services as mentors or ask to be mentored, as the case might be. It would then be a simple matter for people to pair up and contact the moderators in order to start up their own "mentor" thread. After a while no doubt prospective "pupils" would see a mentor who they liked the look of and no doubt either post to ask them to mentor or maybe contact initially by e-mail. I think all this hinges though on getting the program public. M |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Moonbeam, quote: You obviously mean apart from the fact that Ron created a separate forum for it to run in? /main/forumdisplay.cgi?action=displayarchive&number=36&topic=000119 |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Grinch I didn't get that from the links you posted at first. Maybe I missed it. Sorry. A separate forum imho is better than e-mail but not as good as having a few mentoring threads in CA. Tired now. Beddy byes. Will elucidate dans le matin if you desire elucidation. M |
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ChristianSpeaks Member
since 2006-05-18
Posts 396Iowa, USA |
I agree with M. A separate forum would be best. How would it work if the mentor label was relegated as the moderator label is. That way more experienced writers could volunteer and then maybe Ron could assign a certain number of mentee's to that person etc. I just want a little more directed help. I guess there is always the local community college. Dane |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Moonbeam, I understand exactly what you mean, I just don’t think it’s a good idea. For one it would clutter up CA with threads locked for comments apart from the mentor and the one being mentored, which would confuse and annoy the heck out of regular posters. That’s not taking into account the work that Ron would have to do editing the code to lock the threads down. Then you have the fact that some people might not like having their warts and all displayed in a truly public forum, which is perhaps why email mentoring is so popular. The real alternative is to have a public forum hidden to all but the people taking part, if all conversations take place between mentors and mentored in that private\public forum a moderator can easily monitor what’s going on. In such a case everyone who has access is either a mentor or someone being mentored and are less likely to be wart shy and less likely to be disturbed by random posters. So how do you select the mentors? You don’t, in PDV’s scheme people who wanted to get advice and pointers selected mentors based on the body and style of work they’d posted. If you wanted to write like Karen or Brad and they had their names down as possible mentors you selected Karen or Brad (I’ve already pre-booked both btw). The wheel is already there; it’s not a million miles away from what you’re suggesting all you need to do is convince Brad and Ron to start it rolling. If you do get something going give me a shout, I wouldn't mind taking part. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Why not do both? We could have threads for mentoring in this forum, but also have a seperate forum for those that want a more private enviroment. Do you think that may work? |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Yes Ess. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I am glad you believe so, Moonbeam What about Mentoring also in critiques, or rather, trying to mentor someone in a thread that is not specifically set aside for mentoring? Do you think this may be done as well? Why lock this into a "one on one" if it happen that mentoring may be working in the midst of a critique in which other people are posting as well? So it seems there are four kinds of mentoring we may have, and also divide into "private" (or semi-private) and "public"
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Brad, Instead of sending me riddles thro e-mail, may you speak directly to me right here? I think a "poetry contest" is a good idea. But why would you aim this individually at me, instead of collaberatively here at the forum? I would love to share opinions and possibly participate, but I don't feel well enough enough studied and practiced with Sonnets and Triolets to try to steer this myself. Your other e-mail went completly over my head. But I ended up with the feeling you were accusing me of something. Let us deal with it directly right here in the open if we may. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Riddles? Obscure e-mails? That doesn't sound like Brad, lol After all his poetry is always an open book, nest pa? Seriously Brad, what est going on in the corridors of PiP power? Or is it just your mind? M |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
The first was an idea. I wanted to bounce it off you. The second was an attempt to needle you, to get you to respond. Why you? You were the one complaining. Sonnets and triolets were examples. The question at some point has to be: when you talk about form, what the hell are you talking about? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Moon, Actually, nothing's going on. I read Ess's complaints that there wasn't enough formal emphasis. Hey, I thought, what about a regular or semi-regular poetry contest based on this or that particular form. It might be fun, we'd kind of done it before, and it might get a few of the free versers a little more interested in form. At that point, I e-mailed Ess. Ess did not respond. So,at this point, it's all in me head. When did e-mail become synonymous with conspiracy? |
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blister Junior Member
since 2007-08-16
Posts 18here, elsewhere |
Being a free-verser doesn't neccisarily mean you don't know or understand forms. I practice free verse often, but that's just how my poetic path has formed. I used to write solely in sonet form, and I used rhymes and whatnot. I just don't like using forms anymore, because I find them restrictive and they hinder my expressive ability. Free-versers are not neccisarily underdoveloped poets. -mr blister |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I'm not an Instant Messenger, Brad |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: When it was invented. I wasn't meaning that your e-mails were part of a conspiracy, or indeed that there was any "conspiracy" as such. I was just wondering if anyone in the PiP corridors of power was seriously considering the idea of an in-forum mentoring excercise. PiP has a history of "silence followed by announcement" which can be kinda riling to those few humble yet intelligent beings who inhabit the place. Don't forget the discussion stage please. M |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
answer: I don't know. I haven't seen a consensus yet, and, more importantly, I haven't seen anyone volunteer to coordinate it when consensus is reached. Have you talked to anyone outside this thread? |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
If by consensus you mean a unanimous agreement to do something in a particular way, then you know that isn't going to happen, especially if you broaden the constituency to include CA occasionals. Going back to beginning, you, if I remember correctly, suggested mentoring "in CA", or at least coordinated from CA. Maybe I've misunderstood, but it seems that most people would prefer at least the option of public mentoring for the reasons Ess, Jenn and I have cited. It still seems to me an unnecessary administrative burden to start a new forum, at least until demand is tested over a period. And is coordination really such a problem? I suppose it might be if this was all run in e-mail, but in public perhaps not. How about starting a "sticky" thread where people can post a single poem each and then invite offers of help - a kind of meeting place for potential mentors and mentored if you like. Once a match was made the pair would then take the process into a separate thread exclusive to the two of them, and work it through in the forum. Not really talked to anyone in detail about this outside the thread. M |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Why not begin for now somewhere in the middle, that is, between just critique and just mentoring, and try a more mentoring approach to critique itself? |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Yes Ess That's what I had in mind. But at the end of the day it would be for each pair of people to decide what they wanted. For instance if there was a wide disparity in expertise between mentor and mentee (Jenn's word!)then maybe more of a teaching role would evolve. But more nearly matched abilities might produce more of a discussion. That's the beauty of this approach, people aren't hemmed in by expectations or "rules". The critical things here though are that it's in public, and that the "pair" are left alone to get on with it as they wish. Is there a downside to at least trying? M |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I like that. I doubt there would be those kind of "pairs" very often. But if there were more approaches toward teaching and learning going on in critique, I think that would make a much better enviroment, and one in which one-on-one mentoring alongside that would be more likely to come about. Beginners could come here and see someone teaching and explaining things well in a critique and then feel confident enough to seek that person out as a mentor in one way or another, if there were some way to know that person was available as a mentor. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: I've purposely kept my mouth shut 'til now, but I've just got to say, sorry, that just isn't ever going to happen. Pick one, but you can't have both. Not here, at least. It's pretty simple, I think. Cuff someone in your house and it's up to them whether they'll accept such treatment. Do it in my house and it becomes my responsibility to intercede. Give someone bad advice in your house and, again, it's up to them whether they'll blindly follow it. Mislead someone in my house and I have no choice but to accept responsibility for the consequences. That means I will always reserve the right to interfere . . . and encourage others to help me interfere as needed. There is a very strong, and I believe important, tradition in colleges to give a tenured professor immense leeway to teach what and how they want with virtually no interference from either administration or other faculty. I wish I could promise that here, but we don't have any tenured professors at pipTalk, nor do we have the prerequisite vetting necessary to "hire" any. The amount of truly horrid advice offered in this forum is substantial (I'm being kind, I think); it can be tolerated only because there is an expectation others will disagree and, with any luck, some truth will surface in the process. I'm well aware that such a process can be disruptive, especially in a teaching environment, but I consider disruption the lesser of two evils. |
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guyoverthere Member
since 2007-08-12
Posts 58 |
As someone who has just started taking an active interest in learning 'the rules' of poetry, all it's technical terms, the mechanics, etc... It would be nice to have someone available who could answer questions or point out mistakes in structure, grammar and so on. I work more than full time, have a girlfriend, and lots of other obligations. I don't have time to take classes and while I am getting started learning on my own, it's tough to understand how and when rules may be broken, if ever. Not to mention how certain things, meter, scansion, enjambment, pyrrhic substitutions (???) work or don't work in certain poems or whether they're even worth knowing (and if they are, why?). I've been watching you guys debate the pros and cons of setting up an new forum, direct e-mail counseling, and promoting more mentoring directly in CA. While I don't claim to have any answers, I do know, as a total rookie here, what helps me. It is this: 1. Clear explanations of what is good and what is bad about the poems I post. 2. Suggestions on what can be done to make something I write more coherent, structured, or just generally likeable. 3. Follow ups on poems that are posted and 'in the process of critique' What does not help me as a rookie who wants to learn: 1. Short posts saying, 'I like this, it's nice.' 2. Short posts saying, 'This is dribble.' I've been to other poetry forums, like the poetry free-for-all. That place is awful. It's a slam fest. They won't let you post in the C&C galleries while in the General Poetry forums your stuff doesn't get noticed. Noone there seems generally interested in helping people with the urge to learn or improve. I get more feedback here, plus the environment is much more hospitable. I guess what I'm saying is the feel is great here. I get decent feedback, and I'm willing to work to improve because of it (the feedback). I am constantly trying to offer more feedback that is constructive and helpful and in depth. I do like their 1 post per 3 critique rule though. Maybe incorporate something like that here without all the elitist BS they've got going on over there. Finally, I know that a ton of the 'critique' given here isn't especially good or helpful. Honestly, I know the advice I give is probably just downright bad, but even in a bad bunch of apples, one will be good. I say, let the forum continue on as it is but encourage people to learn more on their own and if they need 'mentoring' let it be democratic and within the forum. I agree with Essorant. You guys should try "a more mentoring approach to critique itself". This is the newbie's view. At least the newbie who is REALLY interested in learning but isn't willing to be mentored by someone through e-mail. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: Well I must say Ron, if you've been following this knowing that it was "[n]ever going to happen" I'm mystified as to why you didn't say so earlier. Anyway never mind. Encouraging people to be mentored in e-mail by non-professors, yet banning a private one to one thread in public just because it happens to take place in a site you own strikes me as at best semantics, and, at worst, something rather less savoury. Still, it is your site, you press the buttons and of course what you think is right here, IS right. That goes for teaching methods, advice, poetry forms etc, everything in fact. The bottom line is that you won't allow two people to have an interaction with each other in an exclusive thread in the hope that something good might come out of it because you won't be able to argue over, influence or control that interaction. As a compromise, how about allowing two people to have an exclusive thread to work on a poems or poems on the basis that the thread is opened to public comment after, say, 6 weeks. At that point hopefully there would be something worth critiquing and, if necessary, you could intervene and point out where everything went wrong? M |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
I have stayed out of this thread too because I didn't have anything constructive to add. I'm still not adding anything but do have a question. Why the sudden need to have private threads in a public forum? Wouldn't email serve the purpose just as well or even better? If that's what you want then, by all means, just do it. And, it has the added advantage of not wasting PIP's valuable bandwidth on private matters. If we are to use the forum then let's use it as it is intended to be used. Post a poem and wait for critique, the useful of which certainly can be conducive to learning, the purpose of mentoring in the first place. This is all JMHO, of course. Other's may differ. Pete Never express yourself more clearly than you can think - Niels Bohr |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Pete Ess has hit the nail on the head with: “I don't see why you don't incorporate this into this forum. To hide it in e-mail or take it to segregation and privacy just seems to avoid undertaking to make this forum much better by incorporating mentoring alongside critique.” And Jenn is quite right to point out one of the hazards of putting relatively unknown “older” mentors, presumably implicitly “vetted and approved” by the moderators of PiP in touch with, say, young teens. Not good, Brad and Pete. E-mail also has other drawbacks: It tends to get lost. It leads to temporal confusion. It encourages possibly distracting chattiness. It prevents interception of crazy advice. It leads to delays, irritation and demotivation when one party doesn’t respond. It prevents other people from learning from watching the mentoring process. It prevents other people from watching and judging the ability/temperament of the mentor to see if they might be interested too. All these shortcomings could be overcome if the exchange of ideas was public. And this is what I assumed might happen when Brad first announced the idea. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: That’s true all we have to work with are a bunch of people who write poems with varying degrees of success none of whom are qualified to teach Poetry in general but all of them are experts in one thing – how they write poetry. As far as vetting goes you have the best system available – people who see what other people are doing and want to do it the same way. Is it the right way? Who knows, and more importantly who cares, I don’t want to write perfect iambic pentameter I want to write poems like John X does in open. Why, cause I like them and he writes better poems than I do. Writing like John X is an improvement as far as I’m concerned and the best person to teach me isn’t a tenured professor, luckily there’s an expert on how to write like John X over in Open so why can’t I learn from him if he’s willing? All we need to do is find a way to put the two of us together; you could do it in CA however the other posters are likely to disrupt the process (the place is cluttered with the wrong type of experts). We could do it by email but the risks are too great, not to mention the fact that it pushes people away from PIP or you could do it the same way you did it last time, which seemed to work. /main/forumdisplay.cgi?action=displayarchive&number=36&topic=000119 Doing it the same way you did last time has an added advantage Ron, you must have thought it was a good idea at the time so, unless something drastic has changed, you should be happy to give it another go. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Moonbeam, I agree with all your points from that last post. To an extent, that is. I do have to smile and question at least one though. Do you not feel things get a little "chatty" here? For mentoring to work for the group, it has to be public. It is still not right to allow private conversations or threads in a public forum. If it needs to be private then it has to be email or some other media outside PIP. It is totally unfair to Ron and our members to waste expensive resources on private matters. If we can get around that idea then mentoring through PIP has merit. Otherwise, email has to be the answer. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Grinch is completely right. Also Pete: quote: Thanks Pete. You bolster the point I'm making. Of course things get chatty here, which is generally good, but this is precisely why, just for a change, just as an experiment, just as an interesting exercise, just on the chance that it might be universally useful, I am advocating, for a limited period only (compromise Ron) one to one threads for any pair of people who might care to give it a shot. (E-mail can be chatty in a rather different personal way, which unlike most of the chattiness here ends up having little to do with poetry). quote: Again, precisely so. We must stop agreeing like this Pete .Other people aren't going to derive any benefit from two people exchanging views in e-mail, whereas watching in the forum they just might. On the other hand a free-for-all in a "mentoring" thread effectively prevents a coherent exchange of ideas between two individuals. I'm not suggesting for one moment that such an exchange is "better" than a free-for-all, but it IS different and my hope was that it would be an invigorating change for the forum. quote: "It is still not right ..." the cry of last resort of all reactionaries? Why isn't it right Pete? What harm will a one to one conversation about poetry in a public forum in an effort to improve someone's poetry do? quote: I simply can't understand how allowing a one to one thread in CA for a limited period of 6 weeks or so before it goes public will "waste expensive resources". The whole point is that it ISN'T private. The conversation will hopefully give ideas and stimulus to all those who read it, and at the very least provoke further discussion/argument. While I can see that the idea of a separate forum for mentoring would absorb resources, the in-forum threads would not. I know nothing about these matters, but I'd guess that multi-coloured Christmas trees posted in CA take up far more bandwidth than a regular post. A waste?M [This message has been edited by moonbeam (08-20-2007 05:53 AM).] |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Actually Pete I have no idea why I wrote that last reply, because clearly we are all wasting our time here. Whatever people in this forum might think is a good idea, good for them, good for PiP, Ron has spoken. It's not good for Ron, it's not going to happen. This is entirely reasonable. M |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Why not hold mentoring sessions/threads in the Poetry Workshop? Since that forum is password accessed, it is a little more limited, and not as likely to be interrupted. And if you politely ask others not to post in the thread, declaring the intent of it being a mentoring thread, by courteousy no one shall in any likelihood interrupt, unless of course something is done against the guidelines. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Sigh. I'm not sure what the proper response to that would be? I'd probably lock the thread if you "politely ask others" to in any way circumvent the intent of these forums? You get to advocate traditional form and meter here, Essorant, and soundly dis free verse, only because I know others will quickly set the record straight. I pick on your particular prejudice only because it's so well known, but every writer here has their own prejudices that similarly need to survive the light of public discourse. If you want to tell everyone that slant rhyme is weak, that's fine; others must have the right to tell everyone why you're wrong. With both sides of an issue aired openly, people can then make up their own minds. Silencing others is NOT an option. Nor should it be necessary. It may be a bit more stressful to teach amidst controlled chaos, but it's certainly not impossible. It has to be up to each individual, I guess, whether the potential benefits justify the cost of trying. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: Maybe. Does anyone happen to know if PiP has an "ignore" facility whereby you can block the posts of particular individuals on a temporary basis, so that you don't see their responses? And, Ron, Brad, Pete, if I start a thread as Karen and Ess have done, which wasn't a poem, but something designed to be a one to one discussion, albeit within the "chaos", would you permit the thread to remain? M |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Ron, But I don't believe anyone would be silenced. If they really wished they could interrupt. It would only be a manner of request & courtesy that they not interrupt, not a rule or enforcement. And no one is asking them not to speak out. It is just a request not to speak out in that particular thread. Their would be no obligation not to interrupt, and if they didn't interrupt they could still begin their own thread to discuss anything that is going on in the mentoring. If it is going to help the mentoring process in the thread, why would it be a problem to pursue a request & courtesy manner of seeking a one-on-one thread? No one shall be forced. It shall go as well as the request is respected by the members, which I believe most of the time would be to respect the request. And they may still speak out anywhere else if they do respect the request of letting it be one-on-one. Anyway, that is my last point about this part. I'm willing to let it rest if it is out of question. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Nope. At least, not yet. quote: I'll leave that call up to Brad and Pete, but don't personally have a problem with it. Technically, since CA has been moved out of the Poetry & Prose section and into the Workshop area, there's no reason it needs to adhere to the traditions of our Poetry forums. The rule exists on the supposition that readers come to a poetry forum to read poetry; that doesn't necessarily apply to a workshop on poetry, however. We could also explore the possibility of a CA-type forum devoted entirely to discussion instead of critiques. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Thank you Ron. The thing about yet another forum, is that as well as creating more work for you and the mods presumably, it splits the traffic. People often don't know if that type of mentoring/discussion is likely to be of use to them until they see it in action. Moreover they may just simply want to read. It's not as if CA is exactly overrun by the number of comprehensive and intelligent contributions is it? M |
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