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Critical Analysis #2
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Russell8624
Member
since 2006-11-28
Posts 99
Minnesota

0 posted 2006-12-19 12:59 PM


I hope you don't mind my posting this poem in sections, but it is quite long and it helps keep the editing process down to a human level. Here is the complete first section. Have at it.


This is the Arid Land.
This is the Dead Land.
Alas! There are no Gardens here,
in our Cactus Land,
Only the wilted vines of  valor
Forsaken by the wind.

Pride without shelter, shame without pity,
empty thoughts, desolate beings;

Here we are staked In our dry place,
whispering together in rasped voices.
In a line we are crucified, parched by our fault,
deformed by our chaos.
Our decayed pieces have fallen from our bodies,
and here we are paralyzed,
unable to think with a head full of straw.

Some would glance with eyes of diamond,
Or windows to the soul that seek affliction.
Yet those who have seen us with their own eyes,
remember us not as the Tortured Men,
But only as the Stuffed Men, the Hated Men.

Dreams of redemption dance above our trapped souls,
and we are as children in the waters.
Yet between the reaching of our arms,
And the grasping of our hands,
The shadow falls before us.

We are condemned to the Eternal Midnight,
Without cool breeze or glimmering sky.
We are as wind in dry grass to this barren field,
Empty and meaningless voices.
Spasms to a Saint.

Such is our fantasy,
but not our reality.

© Copyright 2006 Russell - All Rights Reserved
Russell8624
Member
since 2006-11-28
Posts 99
Minnesota
1 posted 2006-12-19 01:24 AM


Remeber this is only the First Section! There are at least four more to come.
Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
2 posted 2006-12-19 01:05 PM


What part is supposed to be the "improvement"?
Russell8624
Member
since 2006-11-28
Posts 99
Minnesota
3 posted 2006-12-19 01:36 PM


I'm not sure how to take that comment but I'm about through with the people on this forum.
ChristianSpeaks
Member
since 2006-05-18
Posts 396
Iowa, USA
4 posted 2006-12-19 01:42 PM


Russel,

I have to say that I just can't buy into it. What is it about? I think the nomadic nature of the piece stems from its lack of clear message. Not that the message must be profound, we've all gone half crazy trying to write something like that, but it must be identifiable even in the scope of our own perception.

Tons of respect however, to seeing this the entire way through.

CS

And a song that I was writing is left undone.
I don't know why I spend my time
writing songs I can't believe
With words that tear and strain to rhy

Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
5 posted 2006-12-19 02:24 PM


Sounds like someone needs a nap. This is your sixth attempt on this. You mentioned earlier that this is your first poem. Maybe you should put it on the shelf for a while and try something a little simpler. I mean, we all have to learn to walk before we can run. The same applies to writing as well as about all of life's worthwhile endeavors.

If one wants to write then it makes sense to begin by learning some of the basics before attempting an epic. One of the primary characteristics of any written word is that it must convey something to a reader. Without that, what is the purpose? Your running complaint throughout this saga has been that none of us seem to understand your purpose. Now I happen to know that most of the members of this forum are pretty intelligent as well as perceptive. Several are even pretty good writers and most are pretty good readers. I submit that the reason none "get it" is that you have failed to present it.

Again, put this one away and try simpler and shorter writing exercises until you gain the chops to tackle a more formidable subject.

ChristianSpeaks
Member
since 2006-05-18
Posts 396
Iowa, USA
6 posted 2006-12-19 02:58 PM


Take Ess' challenge. This is a great place to start honing your delivery. Even if you don't care for formality, it's just a good way to simplify your thinking and clear the clutter out of one's writing.

quote:
Below is a challenge that includes giving some regulation to the structure of your poem and that I think may make a wellseen improvement if it is taken up:

* Rewrite this idea in four or five stanzas.

* Make sure every stanza has only four lines.

* Make sure every line has only eight syllables.

* Make sure every sentence includes more than one line.  

* Rhyme may or may not be included.


I hope this challenge is worthy.  

Bonam Fortunam


Just a thought.

CS

Russell8624
Member
since 2006-11-28
Posts 99
Minnesota
7 posted 2006-12-19 03:51 PM


I do not need to write anything simpler. I am not going to write anything simpler. I like to write about inner emotions, desolate people, and other feelings. Just becuase you don't get what the poem is saying does not mean it is a bad poem. It means that your are not thinking hard enough about what the writer is saying. Everything here is clear cut and understandable. I am talking about empty, desolate people, and using the image of scarecrows hanging in a field to describe them. But no one seems to get that, so here is a simplifed version. Maybe you'll like it.

There once were men who failed at life
They knew nothing but pain and strife
Along came a poet and in his bordem
decided to post a poem on this forum

Maybe it's the way it he decided to write it, But nobody understood so they wanted to fight it.

It was plain to see,
the meaning was crystal,
but the poet went crazy
. . . .[edited by moderator]

Maybe he tried to explain it too much,
but if he posted it anymore he would surely
go nuts.
so here I end this perilous tale
and beware everyone of THE MEN THAT FAIL!!!

[This message has been edited by Brad (12-19-2006 05:26 PM).]

ChristianSpeaks
Member
since 2006-05-18
Posts 396
Iowa, USA
8 posted 2006-12-19 04:06 PM


This forum isn't about wanting to write, it's about how to write. If you are not willing to accept that we don't get what you are trying to say, then fine. If  you don't want to go through the steps to learn a craft then fine. You should go somewhere else.

Ron, you may want to take a look at this one.

FURTHERMORE, there is nothing clear cut OR understandable about empty desolate people. AND, if you want to give us a clue about the scarecrow bit then elude to it.

CS

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
9 posted 2006-12-19 05:46 PM


I've edited the somewhat threatening reference there (not threatening to us, threatening for us), and I'm stuck with a point here.

Poets, don't post rewrites so quickly.

Critics, don't push for rewrites so quickly (see the Fallen Angels poem for clarification here).

Poetry takes time and in many ways the worst thing to do is listen too quickly to what others are saying and then post it (I used to call this color by numbers poetry.). First and foremost, a poem should, at least for the most part, satisfy you, the author. If you get caught up trying to please others, you get caught up, nine times out of ten, pleasing no one.

See Serenity Blaze's response to my recent comment on her latest effort to see what I mean here.

Poetry takes time.

And it takes confidence.

The confidence to stand by what you like and the confidence to change what you don't, and the courage to take the time and figure out what those points are.


Russell8624
Member
since 2006-11-28
Posts 99
Minnesota
10 posted 2006-12-20 01:31 AM


The poem was meant to be humorous, not threatening. I apologize if you took it that way.

I really am listening to everyone, and I am trying very hard. But I don't understand why you have to dismiss this poem simply becuase you don't understand what it means.

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
11 posted 2006-12-20 02:14 AM


Thank you for that.

I don't have time at the moment, but I would point out the number of posts you have on your poems. People aren't dismissing it, they are very interested in it.

There is value in that by itself.




Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
12 posted 2006-12-20 06:40 PM


"There once were men who failed at life
They knew nothing but pain and strife"


That's not too bad as meter and rhyme go.
Almost perfect iambic tetrameter.



rhia_5779
Senior Member
since 2006-06-09
Posts 1334
California
13 posted 2006-12-27 03:04 PM


We aren't dismissing it Russel. Its just if we can't get it and are trying and you can't explain it then maybe you should set it down for awhile. It is not over just you can pause it. Try devoloping your writing skills and your ability to present.

Challenge:
Write a piece medium length,
5 to 9 stanzas long
about a subject matter that is not to complicated. Present it to us, so we can understand the purpose.

Show us that you can write less complicated poems and give a clearer meaning and we have to stop saying that its us who are having trouble.
Or at least I will.

Give this a break, its not improving hugely because you have been working on it tirelessly. TAke a break from it , clear your mind work on my challenge and Christian's and other stuff then come back with a fresh attitude.
Also in the copy of the challenge you posted wasn't it sopposed to be 8 syllables?
if  so that needs work. That I believe was the challenge given.

Russell8624
Member
since 2006-11-28
Posts 99
Minnesota
14 posted 2006-12-27 06:26 PM


I can write anything I want, I am a better writer than most people on this forum, and the only thing wrong here is that no one understands what the poem is saying. I am not going to do anything. If you can't undersand the simple concepts in this poem I don't see how you can read people like T.S Eliot or Edgar Allen and not be able to understand deep poetry.

Forget it.

Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
15 posted 2006-12-27 07:34 PM


Russell, since you are a better writer than anyone else on this forum, I would guess you are wasting your time on us. There surely are other forums out there where you can find writers of your calibre. I can't speak for everyone but I have long since become bored with your antics and sarcasm. The purpose of this forum is for all us us to try to improve our writing skills. Since yours is so good that it can't be improved, or even understood by the PIP folks, why bother? Surely you understand that we are incapable of offering useful critique.

Pete

Never express yourself more clearly than you can think - Niels Bohr

Russell8624
Member
since 2006-11-28
Posts 99
Minnesota
16 posted 2006-12-27 07:40 PM


I am sorry but it is a very frustrating process. I do not know how to make anyone understand what this work is trying to say, so I am giving up.
Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
17 posted 2006-12-28 03:09 AM


Coming back to this thread and this, I think, is a bit of a step backwards.  You already succeeded in writing it much better here.  
rhia_5779
Senior Member
since 2006-06-09
Posts 1334
California
18 posted 2006-12-28 01:11 PM


Russel, you have talent. I believe we already established that. Talent won't get you very far if you are going to be stubborn and you give up writing stuff just because of one poem.

If you are a better writer than everyone on this forum, prove it. Take my challenge or write something different. WE don't understand that one poem. Sorry but I guess that is how the cards are dealt.  Maybe its our fault. Maybe its not. All the same, its one poem. The  concept may have been simple russel but the way you presented it in that was not completely.

No one is saying you have to write something else. Its a suggestion. Get experience writing in other forms and styles , get more familiar with meter and syllable count. Then come back to your current poem.

Personally I am getting fed up with that you come you post in CA , we tell you what we think and you get annoyed at us. No offense but grow up.

I have a question: WHen you first came to pip, WHy did you choose to post in CA?

Did you really want us to crittique you or did you just want us to read what you write?


Btw,if I'm offending you in any way I am really sorry. Why should I bother to read your poem if you just insult me and get mad at me when I tell you what I think?

Russel I like reading your work, its interesting. But takes away the enjoyment by your sarcasm and insults and stuff like that.

Russell8624
Member
since 2006-11-28
Posts 99
Minnesota
19 posted 2006-12-28 01:29 PM


I posted in CA because I wanted to have seasoned writers look at my work and evalute it. So far, the only thing anyone has really done is complain that they didn't understand it, when multiple times it has been explained to them by me personally. This piece deals with emotions that are very deep, and it is by no means easy to present this in a simple way. This has been the case with many other poems I've read, (i.e. "The hollow Men" by T.S Eliot) and it seems I am the only one that is critized for it. But it does not really matter, as I have not given up on poetry itself, only this particular work.
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
20 posted 2006-12-28 08:57 PM


quote:
We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!
Our dried voices, when
We whisper together
Are quiet and meaningless
As wind in dry grass
Or rats' feet over broken glass
In our dry cellar


Shape without form, shade without colour,
Paralysed force, gesture without motion;


Those who have crossed
With direct eyes, to death's other Kingdom
Remember us -- if at all -- not as lost
Violent souls, but only
As the hollow men
The stuffed men.


The first part of Eliot's "The Hollow Men"
(Note: Guys, this is not the full poem, I am not breaking the rules here)

And in the other poem, he follows Poe (which is why it sounds archaic).

Using models is not a bad thing, it might behoove you to get a little farther away from those models in the future.


Russell8624
Member
since 2006-11-28
Posts 99
Minnesota
21 posted 2006-12-29 12:18 PM


Maybe you're right, but I would wager than none of you would dare complain that you didn't understand this poem...seeing as how it's from a famous author and all.
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
22 posted 2006-12-29 01:15 AM


To be honest, one of the reasons I posted it is that I don't think it's one of his strongest works (anyone notice the mistake in the first few lines?). That's not quite true, I used the ending line as an allusion in Mindelay.

But that aside, I thought it might be interesting to compare your version with Eliot's and see what happens.

I don't understand your concern with understanding. It strikes me that everybody 'gets' it -- you've already told us. I do not think Eliot's poem is that difficult (as opposed to say 'Gerontion' or 'Little Gidding' poems I've already a mentioned).

But also, and perhaps more importantly, it gives us a chance to discuss influence and stealing and all the other stuff involved with that.

Oh, and by the way, I can't stand Poe, the poet. (I like the short story writer though).


Russell8624
Member
since 2006-11-28
Posts 99
Minnesota
23 posted 2006-12-29 03:01 AM


I confess I did borrow some of eliots form, but I was in no way trying to counterfeit my own work. The Hollow Men was actually one of the first poems I read, and it has stuck with me for a long time. I love the way it just says what it means and doesn't worry about meter or rhyme or any of that.
As for my poem, it was the first one I have ever written. Perhaps it was mistake to write it. oh well.

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