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serenity blaze
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since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738


0 posted 2006-10-16 07:21 PM


I realize this is a lengthy read, and if there are any who feel compelled to help me out, I thank you in advance. What follows is the result of a previous challenge, and I really need help with it, as I have decided to try to re-work this (and I understand it needs a very critical eye and patience) but I've rendered some drawings to go with it, and I hope to be able to offer it to my family in a vanity press or chapbook type form. (In leather mb---grin?)

What I'm hoping for is help eliminating the allusions to Pip and making it more readily accessible to an ordinary reader. I'd also like help highlighting cliche', problematic metrics, and anything/everything I may have overlooked or taken for granted.

I'm hoping to come up with a slim, one-work volume, generously peppered with my charcoal drawings and some astrology stuff I have gathered.

So...should someone have the time? Help me out. If not, I understand the length of it is daunting. But I do need an outward "critical eye".

So here's my baby--and I already hate the title too, btw:

The Wrath of Mars

I write these words with trembling hand,
remembering times I summoned Gods.
A challenge, now, from ecrivan--
so warily I called Nimrod:
"I pray you grant me cunning, Sir--
the keen of eye and stealth of foot--
lend to me a draught of strength
and courage to do what I should."


"You have the fearlessness of child."
Surprisingly, his voice was mild.
"Tell me then, what is your prey
that makes you carry on this way?"


Defiantly, I raised my chin,
but wavered voice betrayed chagrin.
"I do not know what I long for,
but I must hunt the God of War."


"You must be weary of your life--
it's not enough that you know Strife?,
nurtured by the vile Discord--
you ask for that you ill afford!"


I lowered eyes and studied floor.
"I do not wish to embrace War--
yet should I be denied my stay--
I swear that I'll die anyway!"


"You are brave, but most unwise.
Go then, child, to your demise."
As all the stars of heaven cried,
I shuddered as Orion sighed.
Muttering, he waved one arm,
"Strength can't keep you safe from harm."


*


Thus I withdrew to Hermit's cave.
I fasted there for forty days.
With bloodied hands, I dug my grave,
and prayed my sins would be forgave.


I cleansed myself through salt of tears,
as one by one, I battled fears.
I had to first survive the Hell,
and slay the demons birthed by self.


I watched the sky as planets moved.
I gathered herb. I hummed The Tune
of Summoning--I could not sing--
until I felt the quickening.


*     *


Incantation knows not pen.
Words in whispers must be kept.
but know that some Gods' names are sung,
while other names of Gods are wept.
Forgive the silence of my ink.
I cannot tell you--you must think--
the rule of rite of summoning--
repose~realized~remembering...


*     *     *


Thus came the dusk, night 'thirty-nine,'
I felt the need of fire's heat.
I gathered rowan from the field.
I bundled twigs, encircling me.


Around the raging eye of oak
and sandalwood of heady smoke--
I wailed as labor pain began--
I wept his name in love's recant.


I called him, Ares, of the Greek--
scorned the Roman Mars as meek,
boasting that I danced on grave
and all the world was finally saved
from Panic, Trembling and Terror.
The sons of War, enslaved forever.
His minions now were mine--by whim--
into the night, I laughed at him.


Thereupon, the ground did split,
and I fell deep into the Pit.
Scenes of rape and riotry,
crimes of war and bigotry--
the taste of bile rose in my throat--
and I collapsed before his throne.


*     *


"WHO DOES DARE TO CALL ON ME?
A poet? writing poetry?
She calls herself serenity!
Cute." He snarled derisively.


"Let her burn.
She's a disgrace.
Let her scream
for sin of haste."


*


I did the only thing I knew--
I wailed to him--"But I love you!
I gladly gave up light of stars
to gaze upon the face of Mars.
You are the mighty son of Zeus!
I betrothe myself to you.
I offer love as sacrifice.
I stand before you, trembling bride.
For you, I would die willingly,
but first, I pray, you lay with me..."


*     *

I looked into his blue-flamed eyes--
and he smiled to my surprise.
"What a cunning bit of wile--
you are indeed a wicked child!
How did you know what I long for?
Alas, I can't make love and war.
But would I could, I'd make you wife,
but never shall I betray Strife."


"You've pleased me, so I'll let you go,
but no one else must ever know
that on the Earth was moment's peace
when God of War showed his mercy."


*     *     *


I penned these words
by light of stars:
"serenity
dares wrath of Mars..."


*     *


Orion writes across the sky
in twinkled script--he winks--"nice try."


*



-----------------------------------

And don't hold back, k? If I am gonna put some of my words into print, I want it as good as I can get it.

I'd like particular help either reconciling the "serenity" b.s. alter-ego thing, or doing away with her altogether. Also, the mention of ecrivan should go too (sorry "e", but it won't suit my needs)

and don't be shy--if you think it's unacceptable, I would like to hear so.

Thanks in advance.


© Copyright 2006 serenity blaze - All Rights Reserved
iliana
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1 posted 2006-10-17 12:03 PM


*Broad smiling here* Ser, I just have one suggestion besides what you noted yourself.  It is the line:  "and courage to do what I should" -- for me the rhythm seems a little off; maybe something like:  and courage doing what I should?  Naw...that doesn't work right either.  It's the "to do" part that doesn't work right (two strong accents...I think you need one strong, one soft), but to tell you the truth, I don't know how to fix it.  I'll think on this.

And you know how I hate to pick anything out and chew on it, don't you...so it's really no big deal to me.  But....I love this poem, and you know why.  It held my attention very well and didn't feel that long.  

PS:  I wouldn't change the use of Serenity...but that's me.


rhia_5779
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since 2006-06-09
Posts 1334
California
2 posted 2006-10-17 12:34 PM


Is it all one poem or multiple poems?
Midnitesun
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Gaia
3 posted 2006-10-17 01:04 PM


I'll have to come back and read at least two more times before attempting ANY critique. Meanwhile, I'll just say I love your wickedly charming ways, and each day of Peace on Earth I shall spin into the wind thrice and say:
"Thank you, sister serenity! for bravely stepping onto that lonely pathway to Peace."

serenity blaze
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since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

4 posted 2006-10-17 02:26 PM


rhia--it is an epic poem, which I hope to rework so that each part would stand alone to read as one poem, but tell a story.

And thanks guys, but I'm mulling over the fact, that I may have to add here, and cut there, or get busy sketching a whole lotta stuff, because otherwise, unless I include other works, this will be one very slim tome indeed. I'm not sure if I'll consider that a problem or not.

If anything, it will be cheaper for me to put together.

This is the verse I consider "center" though--


"Incantation knows not pen.
Words in whispers must be kept.
but know that some Gods' names are sung,
while other names of Gods are wept.
Forgive the silence of my ink.
I cannot tell you--you must think--
the rule of rite of summoning--
repose~realized~remembering..."

oh drat--ELLIPSES! whooooooops

Balladeer
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5 posted 2006-10-17 09:02 PM


Impressive, lady! This has the base of a very good piece. It is the lump of clay used to create David....and that's meant as a compliment.

I'll be thrilled to work on this on as time permits because it is worth the effort. Time hasn't been permitting too well lately but I'll make it happen.

If you want to start without me, work on a set rhyme scheme a little. You use a-b-a-b, a-a-b-b-,a-b-c-b,and some free verse. We need a plan to incorporate these rhyme schemes in such a way the reader is not put off by the sudden changes.

Be back later.....

rhia_5779
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since 2006-06-09
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California
6 posted 2006-10-18 09:58 AM


You did a good job of telling a story
serenity blaze
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Posts 27738

7 posted 2006-10-18 10:57 AM


"a-b-a-b, a-a-b-b-,a-b-c-b,and some free verse"

That's about as close to form as I generally get, Mike.

But I'll try to be a little more cooperative than the last time. But you are gonna haveta SHOW me yanno.

I enjoy using that particular scheme, because it sets a quick pace. I'm not convinced that it's working though, and it WILL be hard to break me of that--if I manage to at all. (I'm a teensy bit hard-headed yanno.

There's bound to be a few lines I consider "untouchable"--BUT, I think the fact that I wanted each piece to stand alone should make this less daunting than when you tried to help me with Eye of the Storm (was it that long ago? sheesh

But anyhow, some of the lines I might consider untouchable, but I think I'm more flexible now then I was then. I just don't want anything to sound forced--or superflous to make it fit a scheme. (I'm guilty enough of the latter as it is.) And yes, I realize I mixed mythologies, but I like it that way too. Let me know what you find that "glares" at you first.

(and if Jen is reading this, I swear I'm working on the eki-thing-a-ma-jiggy--but yet AGAIN I chose a subject I thought would be an easy and quick write only to find five hundred allusions to other works in it.---NOTE to others who are trying that form--this can happen if you choose a MOVIE as your art form. )

I'll be around.

JenniferMaxwell
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8 posted 2006-10-18 03:16 PM


This is such a wonderful read, Karen, thoroughly enjoyed it. The mixture of different rhyme schemes with free verse, I think, is a very pleasing touch that adds a musical quality to the piece, sort of like movements in a concerto. Don’t know enough about meter to go into detail, but to me the rhythm and pace is perfect, keeps the reader going at just the right speed to absorb the material without feeling rushed or becoming bored. The language is elegant, witty, coquettish and most of all very, very smart and clever. I hope when you’ve finished this to your liking, perhaps you’ll add one of your drawings. I’d really love to see them.

An eki-thing on a movie, now that sounds fascinating. Can’t wait to read it.


Balladeer
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9 posted 2006-10-18 10:20 PM


The Wrath of Mars

I write these words with trembling hand,
remembering times I summoned Gods.
A challenge, now, from ecrivan--
so warily I called Nimrod:
"I pray you grant me cunning, Sir--
the keen of eye and stealth of foot--
lend to me a draught of strength
and courage to do what I should."................................rhyme


"You have the fearlessness of child."
Surprisingly, his voice was mild.
"Tell me then, what is your prey
that makes you carry on this way?"


Defiantly, I raised my chin,
but wavered voice betrayed chagrin.
"I do not know what I long for,.........................not smooth
but I must hunt the God of War."


"You must be weary of your life--
it's not enough that you know Strife?,
nurtured by the vile Discord--
you ask for that you ill afford!"


I lowered eyes and studied floor.
"I do not wish to embrace War--.............................clumsy
yet should I be denied my stay--
I swear that I'll die anyway!"


"You are brave, but most unwise.
Go then, child, to your demise."
As all the stars of heaven cried,
I shuddered as Orion sighed.
Muttering, he waved one arm,
"Strength can't keep you safe from harm."


*


Thus I withdrew to Hermit's cave.
I fasted there for forty days.
With bloodied hands, I dug my grave,
and prayed my sins would be forgave.............rhyme.....forgave not a wise word


I cleansed myself through salt of tears,
as one by one, I battled fears.
I had to first survive the Hell,
and slay the demons birthed by self..............................rhyme.


I watched the sky as planets moved.
I gathered herb. I hummed The Tune
of Summoning--I could not sing--
until I felt the quickening.


*     *


Incantation knows not pen.
Words in whispers must be kept.
but know that some Gods' names are sung,
while other names of Gods are wept.
Forgive the silence of my ink.
I cannot tell you--you must think--
the rule of rite of summoning--
repose~realized~remembering.................................meter.


*     *     *


Thus came the dusk, night 'thirty-nine,'
I felt the need of fire's heat.
I gathered rowan from the field.
I bundled twigs, encircling me...........................rhyme.
Around the raging eye of oak
and sandalwood of heady smoke--
I wailed as labor pain began--
I wept his name in love's recant.............................rhyme


I called him, Ares, of the Greek--
scorned the Roman Mars as meek,
boasting that I danced on grave
and all the world was finally saved
from Panic, Trembling and Terror............................change for thyme and meter
The sons of War, enslaved forever.
His minions now were mine--by whim--
into the night, I laughed at him.


Thereupon, the ground did split,
and I fell deep into the Pit.
Scenes of rape and riotry,
crimes of war and bigotry--
the taste of bile rose in my throat--
and I collapsed before his throne...............................rhyme


*     *


"WHO DOES DARE TO CALL ON ME?
A poet? writing poetry?
She calls herself serenity!
Cute." He snarled derisively.


"Let her burn.
She's a disgrace.
Let her scream
for sin of haste."


*


I did the only thing I knew--
I wailed to him--"But I love you!
I gladly gave up light of stars
to gaze upon the face of Mars.
You are the mighty son of Zeus!
I betrothe myself to you.
I offer love as sacrifice.
I stand before you, trembling bride.
For you, I would die willingly,
but first, I pray, you lay with me..."


*     *

I looked into his blue-flamed eyes--
and he smiled to my surprise.
"What a cunning bit of wile--
you are indeed a wicked child!
How did you know what I long for?
Alas, I can't make love and war.
But would I could, I'd make you wife,
but never shall I betray Strife."


"You've pleased me, so I'll let you go,
but no one else must ever know
that on the Earth was moment's peace
when God of War showed his mercy.".................................rhyme and meter.


*     *     *


I penned these words
by light of stars:
"serenity
dares wrath of Mars..."


*     *


Orion writes across the sky
in twinkled script--he winks--"nice try."


*
questionable rhymes
-----------------------------

foot - should
began - recant
terror - forever
throat - throne
cave - days
hell - self
sacrifice - bride


rhyme scheme
--------------------

a-b-a-b-c-d-e-d
a-a-b-b-
a-a-b-b-
a-a-b-b-
a-a-b-b-
a-a-b-b-c-c-
a-b-a-b-
a-a-b-b-
a-a-b-b-
a-b-c-b-d-d-e-e-
a-b-c-b-
a-a-b-b-
a-a-b-b-c-c-d-d-
a-a-b-b-c-c-
a-a-a-
a-b-c-b-
a-a-b-b-c-c-d-d-e-e-
a-a-b-b-c-c-d-d-
a-a-b-b-
a-b-c-b-
a-a-


The seventh line in the first stanza needs to rhyme with the fifth to maintain the order. The next four stanzas are excellent. The next six-line stanza is fine also. The next three stanzas should be the same, which means the first of the three should be changed to a-a-b-b. The 16th and 20th stanzas, which are a-b-c-b, are fine because they are basically two two-line stanzas broken up for effect.

Actually it's much better than i thought after the original read. Your meter is awesome, as are the way you express your thoughts.. You make a great mythstress!

serenity blaze
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since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

10 posted 2006-10-19 12:23 PM


Wow.

Now that is some super service! (Ya'll see why I love this guy?)

And I'll save this and see if I can make a go of it, but blush, as always you know I have to have at least ONE loose end.

Can't go through life having fun without at least one loose end, I say.

Thanks so much Mike. And now, this is what I'm talking about, folks.

This gentleman here helped me out in a similar manner a few years back and it was just the way he explained a poem to me, it just, totally changed the way that I write, and I felt a "click" in my head. Like Helen Keller understanding W-A-T-E-R at the pump, I went nuts and started writing like the crazy person I am. And all he had to do was use musical terms with me to discuss meter.

Until then I was deaf.

So thanks for then, Mike, and lemme see if I can make you proud. It might take me a little time, and yes, I may have to struggle with my ego to let go of some lines.

Me and my shadow.

Now there's a fight.

Thanks love. Yer a doll.

Mysteria
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11 posted 2006-10-19 01:08 PM


WOW! (To you both!)  A mythstress LOL.
Balladeer
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12 posted 2006-10-19 04:47 PM


Serenity gal, you made me proud long ago...you go, girl!
Grinch
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Whoville
13 posted 2006-10-19 05:20 PM



I think Mike pretty much picked up all the points, the only comment I have is a lot of the rhymes you did go for seemed a little easy or simple, they don't come across as forced but seemed a little predictable at times. Not quite cat-sat-mat territory but I was expecting more invention knowing how well you can use words.

That's the nit picking out the way.

Overall I thought this was a good piece, definitely worth polishing.

Thanks for the chance to read and reply


serenity blaze
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Posts 27738

14 posted 2006-10-19 05:43 PM


aw...you guys, and great big hugs to you both. And I agree with you both too. "Focus" is difficult for me, but on this piece I did actually lose a few hours, so yep, Grinch, most of it was just off the top of my head, and thus the easy rhyme.

Quite honestly what scares me about the re write is trying to keep the fun and YES, "flow" without sounding forced.

Let me exhale though and see what happens.

(I hardly ever exhale.)

STORMS happen when I do that.

thank you both MUAH

Ron
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15 posted 2006-10-19 06:18 PM


quote:
questionable rhymes
-----------------------------

foot - should
began - recant
terror - forever
throat - throne
cave - days
hell - self
sacrifice - bride


I'm guessing, Mike, that you don't much like Emily Dickinson, the acknowledged mistresss of slant rhyme?

Personally, I don't have a problem with the rhyme scheme, and certainly not with the slant rhymes, and I think the few rough metrical variations depend on what Karen was trying to accomplish in those spots (that should bring Brad into the discussion soon enough). The form, I think, is good, though I personally find the inconsistent transistions (*, **, ***) a little distracting. I suspect I keep looking for a pattern there that probably wasn't intended?



Balladeer
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16 posted 2006-10-19 06:43 PM


Interesting you should say that, Ron. Actually I'm NOT a Dickenson fan for that reason, although I will say that, when she uses slant rhymes, she does it fairly consistently. What I mean is that she doesn't do a lot of  combining slant rhymes with true rhymes. It's the  combining of the two which takes away from the poem and makes the poet look lazy, as if they will use a true rhyme whan it comes to them and a slant when it doesn't.

I have NEVER been a fan of slant rhymes. They should just be called slants, since they don't actually rhyme. I consider them more free verse than rhyme.....just another example of playing tennis without the net.

serenity blaze
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17 posted 2006-10-19 06:59 PM


Is there a difference between a "slant rhyme" and assonance?

Or is assonance simply slant rhymes internalized within the work?

*frown*

Please explain?

(and tsk...you can't dis "emily".

It is really bad karma.

Initials, E.D.

Think about it? )

Grinch
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Whoville
18 posted 2006-10-19 07:08 PM


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slant_rhyme
serenity blaze
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19 posted 2006-10-19 07:14 PM


Thank you.

Although it is still rather foggy to me. Shame on me.

I do not know the difference between my assonance and a hole in the ground.

There.

.

.

.

I said it.



Seriously though, unless I missed something, it is still up to the reader to decide...

hmmmm.

Balladeer
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20 posted 2006-10-19 07:27 PM


Yep, I know...Dissin' Emily is blasphemy in poetic circles. it's good being Queen!

(Won't see many slants with Poe! )

serenity blaze
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21 posted 2006-10-19 07:48 PM


Well, no, you don't.

But um, I don't allow my dates to order for me off the menu, either.

(that's a WARNING--grin)

some days I want a Poe boy?

Other days, a nice light salad'll do.

And none of this explains the nuances of difference between a slant rhyme and assonance. (I'm wondering now if it's like saying, "it tastes like chicken"?) ???

But I am here to learn.

and yikes...I think my son just hot wired the dryer.

Howzzat for reality?

sheesh

I'm slippin'....I'll be around

Grinch
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Whoville
22 posted 2006-10-19 08:26 PM



As I understand it Karen Assonance is the repetition of vowels or the sound of vowels.

Cry at night at this desire

Consonance is the opposite - the sound of consonants is used

And did they build a mind to last (last counts when pronounced lassed)

Both can be used to mimic true rhyme, either internal or at the end of lines

And did you really see me cry
A tear at night
Or was it just a flight of mind
That failed to last


Ron
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23 posted 2006-10-19 08:48 PM


quote:
What I mean is that she doesn't do a lot of  combining slant rhymes with true rhymes. It's the  combining of the two which takes away from the poem and makes the poet look lazy, as if they will use a true rhyme whan it comes to them and a slant when it doesn't.

I don't think that's true, Mike, as probably her most famous poem best exemplifies:

Because I could not stop for Death,
He kindly stopped for me;
The carriage held but just ourselves
And Immortality.

We slowly drove, he knew no haste,
And I had put away
My labour, and my leisure too,
For his civility.

We passed the school where children played,
Their lessons scarcely done;
We passed the fields of gazing grain,
We passed the setting sun.

We paused before a house that seemed
A swelling of the ground;
The roof was scarcely visible,
The cornice but a mound.

Since then 'tis centuries; but each
Feels shorter than the day
I first surmised the horses' heads
Were toward eternity.


I count three perfect rhymes and two slant rhymes, and I don't think that is at all unrepresentative of Dickinson's work.

I think the problem (which is probably too strong a word in this case) with perfect rhyme, especially as it pertains to end rhyme, is that it creates a very predictable pattern. The same, in my opinion, can be said of undeviatingly perfect meter. You mentioned Poe, Mike? I agree, he's a great example of someone with a true mastery of both meter and rhyme (in all its many variations). Read The Raven or, my personal favorite, The Bells, and you can almost hear the metronome tick tick ticking away in the background. The thing is, though, that was his intent. The message in most of his work was secondary to the emotional effect, the content subservient to the simple pleasures of syncopation. Oh, yea, can anyone tell I really LOVE Poe?  

Poe's goals, however, are the not the goals of every writer. Dickinson, especially in her later years, was far more interested in the message. Rhythm, of course, was still important, but only so long as it didn't detract from what she was trying to say. I think metrical variations and slanted rhymes (and internal rhymes and a host of other techniques) can break out of the predictable patterns that too often results in "sing-song" poetry, like Poe's, which can make the message subordinate to the rhythm. Slant rhyme is unpredictable, and when mixed with perfect rhyme, can also be used to draw attention to specific, presumably important, parts of the poem.

Put another way, in most of Poe's poetry, with its slavishly perfect meter and impeccably perfect rhyme, everything is majestically bold and nothing stands out as more important than the rest.  

I don't think slant rhyme is imperfect rhyme, any more than I think a feminine ending (Hypermetrical) is imperfect iambic meter. Both, I believe, are tools.

p.s. Mike, you should read Dream-Land by Poe for a good example, in addition to Dickinson's, of effective slant rhyme (and visual rhyme, too).  

p.p.s. Karen, as Grinch said, assonance centers on vowel sounds, consonance on consonant sounds, but slant rhyme can mix either or both. In your own poem, for example, terror/forever, throat/throne and hell/self repeat both vowel and consonant sounds to create a slant rhyme. Additionally, I think it's pretty typical to think of assonance and consonance (and it's cousin, alliteration) as internal rhymes, rather than end rhymes. There's also visual rhyme, as I mentioned above, which uses words that look like they should rhyme, but actually don't (such as slaughter and laughter or [in the first two lines of Poe's Alone], seen and been).

serenity blaze
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24 posted 2006-10-19 09:48 PM


Ron said:

quote:
p.p.s. Karen, as Grinch said, assonance centers on vowel sounds, consonance on consonant sounds, but slant rhyme can mix either or both. In your own poem, for example, terror/forever, throat/throne and hell/self repeat both vowel and consonant sounds to create a slant rhyme. Additionally, I think it's pretty typical to think of assonance and consonance (and it's cousin, alliteration) as internal rhymes, rather than end rhymes. There's also visual rhyme, as I mentioned above, which uses words that look like they should rhyme, but actually don't (such as slaughter and laughter or [in the first two lines of Poe's Alone], seen and been).


(yeah, I'm proud of the quote thingie, but anyhoo...)

As luck would have it, a musician friend of mine just dropped by, and discussed this thread and pronounciation, because, as he said, justifiably, he can write perfect rhyme into lyric for his music, but unless it is very simple, it can be pronounced right back out again by the interpreting artist.

This Dickinson quote had us at odds for a bit:

"Since then 'tis centuries; but each
Feels shorter than the day
I first surmised the horses' heads
Were toward eternity."

I asked him (because he is indeed a very skilled poet, but I can't prove that because he is also a musician and wants money for his stuff) WHY would she choose

"Since then 'tis centuries;..."

When she could have just said something simpler,

"Since it has been centuries;"
--my friend pointed out her language more aptly defined an end of time. And was better stressed, to boot.

But I argued to him, there are a lot of different ways to say the same thing, why would she, since she seemed to opt for directness and simplicity, choose words like "'tis."

Then I had him read it aloud, and it depends entirely on the pronounciation of "toward" whether or not her choice was the most appropriate.

(He left a bit glum too, noting that most of his best shtuff was destroyed by coverbands.)



All of which left me with the ever prevalent question of this:

How much can writers control the mood, tempo, meter, all of that stuff, via construction? Because as I stated previously (somewhere) my mixtures of rhyme scheme and line breaks are deliberate maneuvers to force the reader to read the words the way I hear them in my head.



I am happy. I feel HEARD in this thread.

Now I just want some gravy.


Ron
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25 posted 2006-10-20 12:11 PM


quote:
"Since then 'tis centuries;..."

When she could have just said something simpler,

"Since it has been centuries;"

Simpler? Yours uses more words than Dickinson's, Karen, not fewer, and in rewording it you left out probably the most important word and concept. The "then" in there that you dropped acts as a transition from all that has come before.

Of course, I'm guessing your real complaint is that 'tis is an archaic contraction? Yes, 'tis true enough.

LOL. Would you perhaps prefer, "It's true enough?" They mean exactly the same thing, though in some ways I think 'tis makes more sense. It would sure avoid a lot of the confusion people have over it's the contraction and its the possessive, don't you think? But, sadly, that's the not the way we actually talk any more, and the written word invariably has to follow the spoken.

So, you want to guess about when 'tis started falling out of literary favor, Karen? Keeping in mind, of course, that Dickinson penned her poetry in the mid- to late-1800's.

You guessed it, I'm sure. When Emily decided on "Since then 'tis centuries" she probably wasn't aware she was using a soon-to-be archaic contraction.

quote:
Then I had him read it aloud, and it depends entirely on the pronounciation of "toward" whether or not her choice was the most appropriate.

When God set Adam the unenviable task of naming the creatures of the Earth, I'll bet He was chuckling, knowing we would never be able to stop with the naming thing. What you're describing, Karen, is called elision.

quote:
How much can writers control the mood, tempo, meter, all of that stuff, via construction? Because as I stated previously (somewhere) my mixtures of rhyme scheme and line breaks are deliberate maneuvers to force the reader to read the words the way I hear them in my head.

That's rhetorical, right? I mean, not only can't anyone here write that multi-volume book any time soon, but I'm guessing (hoping?) no one else here except you knows for certain how you hear them in your head.

That sounds flippant, I know, but it's really not, because how you hear them in your head should only be your goal if it's also the way that will best evoke the emotion or message you are trying to communicate. If the latter is your REAL goal, then yea, I think what you're looking for is called craft (as opposed to art or science). A lot of it has been written down, a lot of it is still waiting to be articulated, and I suspect there's even a small portion of it that is waiting to be discovered.

As best I can tell? There ain't no shortcuts.

p.s. Shouldn't we be talking about your poem? What was the mood, tempo, and "all of that stuff" you were trying to evoke? Even in a very mixed mythology, after all, they still claim the devil is in the details.

serenity blaze
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since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

26 posted 2006-10-20 12:49 PM


quote:
the devil is in the details


and I like to have a LOT of em at my disposal!

But trust I am considering all.

Since I already asked Mike then, perhaps I should ask your advice as well.

Since I decided that I really would like to put this together as a...I dunno...a SOMETHING for my family to keep, do you think I should do an introduction, since my family and friends most certainly don't know me as "Serenity"?

I am always ever, only halfway kidding.

and I felt like that should be both my ending and my beginning, as I typed that.

Balladeer
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27 posted 2006-10-20 02:18 PM


I don't think slant rhyme is imperfect rhyme

My feeling,Ron, is that slant rhymes are not rhyme at all. Please take this as a personal opinion, and not one that I am trying to force on anyone.

Wikipedia has the following definition...

oblique (or slant): a rhyme with an imperfect match in sound. (green, fiend)

Well, what in blazes is that? In my small and imperfect world, a word rhymes or  not. The sounds are similar or not. That's like saying "I look like my brother, only different."

Having said that, what i am basically doing is NOT denigrating it's use but only stating my reasons for not calling it rhymed. That does not take away from it's usefulness at all....and I wholeheartedly agree that Dickenson and others use it exactly for that purpose...their meanings were more important than their desire to stick to a strict adherence to rhyme. Nothing wrong with thtat, either.

Again, personally, I believe that, when a poem is set up beginning with rhyme, the ear, eye or mind of the reader is expecting that to follow through. When it doesn't, it comes across as fudging a little, like the author is taking the easy way out.

In Karen's poem,however, I will retract my "questionable rhymes". If she wants to use slant verse, so be it. If Emily did it, why can't she?   In my opinion, it would be more presentable without it, but I'm the guy who would tell Dickenson "Hey, if you're gonna rhyme....RHYME!"

That's one of the beauties of poetry....there are so many ways to express one's thoughts. My final quideline is....."Does the reader approve?" If the answer is yes, it's good.

(for those who are going to say, "The reader doesn't matter, It's what I feel about it....don't bother 'cause it ain't true)

Ron
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since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669
Michigan, US
28 posted 2006-10-20 06:36 PM


quote:
Since I decided that I really would like to put this together as a...I dunno...a SOMETHING for my family to keep, do you think I should do an introduction, since my family and friends most certainly don't know me as "Serenity"?

Anyone ever mention that you ask hard questions, Karen? Try as I might, I just can't find any way to answer that with a simple yes or no. What I really want to tell you is yes and no. Which, of course, won't make any sense at all.

Let me try to answer your question by asking a few of my own.

Do you agree that what you currently have is a narrative? Essentially, you are telling a story, I think. Right?

A narrative pretty much has to have a beginning, a middle, and an end (even if not necessarily told in that order). Can you tell us which parts of your poem comprise the beginning of your story? The middle? The ending? If this was a three-act play, where would we see the curtains fall and rise?



serenity blaze
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since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

29 posted 2006-10-20 08:34 PM


I can't, at the moment, recall anyone ever telling me I ask hard questions.

But I realize this question is one that is a personal decision, but I'm just hoping for some educated opinions on how to put this together, since I don't really have any practical experience on how to do this--and um, YOU do.

I realize this one work would be a very slim volume, and right there in the opening is where I have to begin my edit, because a general reader unfamiliar with Pip won't know who the heck "ecrivan" is--much less that this was an answer to a challenge of his.

And I have one stanza that I have in mind as the central key, or pivot to the story:


quote:
Incantation knows not pen.
Words in whispers must be kept.
but know that some Gods' names are sung,
while other names of Gods are wept.
Forgive the silence of my ink.
I cannot tell you--you must think--
the rule of rite of summoning--
repose~realized~remembering...

And yes, I would like it to read as a narrative. But I thought that if I did an intro to "Serenity", perhaps even one of my answers to the "I AM" challenges, then I could build a sort "adventures of" serial read. That's one option, as long as I could keep it logically cohesive.

I realized pretty quickly I couldn't kill Serenity altogether, since she is central to the poem, so I thought why not just take it and celebrate her?

I honestly don't know which way would work or if any of it will work.

I do have other poems in the archives which are mythologically oriented, and some are just mystical, but my goal is to keep it an entertaining and fun read, and something that even people who don't normally read poetry might enjoy.

(My family doesn't read my stuff. When they do, they look at me funny. Um, they look at me funny anyway, but that is because I am a changeling and the gypsies stole my mother's real child. )

But anyhow, I'm just asking your opinion, and everyone else, which way to go with it. I have a fine idea of which way to re-write this, thanks to you guys. I also realize it's gonna be a problem in some areas, so Mike, don't get testy if I don't make it all neat rhymes, k?

But there it is, my motivation for the question. I'm really not so complicated Ron.

er...or am I?

I'm afraid at this stage of my life I have come to the conclusion that I don't really know myself very well.

Sunshine
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30 posted 2006-10-20 08:49 PM


quote:
(My family doesn't read my stuff. When they do, they look at me funny. Um, they look at me funny anyway, but that is because I am a changeling and the gypsies stole my mother's real child. )


So, apparently they do read your "stuff" and wonder "where can this be coming from?"

Kudos.

We reside in the world of poetry, or at least, the wanna-be poets.

My only input here, Karen, is that yes, you do indeed ask hard questions; yes, you do demand the best of yourself; and yes, you've got some exceptional people in here working with you.  

I learn a heck of a lot when you ask questions.  An exceptional bunch of stuff that before now, didn't have a name, I just knew it happened.  

One of the reasons I try to follow along and pick up bread crumbs.

to all of you!



Essorant
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since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
31 posted 2006-10-21 12:30 PM


I must agree with Balladeer about the rhyme.  Slant rhyme is much weaker than fullrhyme.  

Use an example of a wellknown nursery rhyme and replace the fullrhyme with slant rhyme, and the difference becomes much more apparant:

Twinkle, twinkle, little star
How I wonder what you (mark)
Up above the world so high,
Like a diamond in (my sight.)


The rhyme and its effect is much weaker in the ear.

The other thing I see in this poem is far too many I's, especially in these lines:

I watched the sky as planets moved.
I gathered herb. I hummed The Tune
of Summoning--I could not sing--
until I felt the quickening.


Five I's in four lines!

"I did the only thing I knew--
I wailed to him--"But I love you!
I gladly gave up light of stars
to gaze upon the face of Mars.
You are the mighty son of Zeus!
I betrothe myself to you.
I offer love as sacrifice.
I stand before you, trembling bride.
For you, I would die willingly,
but first, I pray, you lay with me..."


Ten I's in ten lines!  That was a bit too excessive for me.  I think it may do the poem better to tone those down quite a bit.


serenity blaze
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since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

32 posted 2006-10-21 12:47 PM


Thanks Ess.

I was wondering if anyone was going to point that out.

Now how I'll address that, I dunno.

Even if I change point of view, I'm gonna have to use some kind of pronoun, eh?

Any suggestions?

And just curious, Ess? Did you like it?

Essorant
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since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
33 posted 2006-10-21 05:05 PM


Hi Serenity

Yes, I liked.  I just thought the point of view was a bit overdone, and that usually  brings about using "I" a bit too often as it did here.  

There are some things that may be done to fix that:

-try to describe other things more instead of your own actions.

-your sentences are bit too short, and therefore the tendency in a first person poem to begin a new sentence with the word "I" happens very often.  Using dashes in a first person poem as well, often is given to beginning another phrase with "I". The best way to deal with that may be to lengthen the sentences and keep the I implied. Nothing wrong with using a few and's and but's as well.  Poetry needs them too.

-Don't move from one aspect to another so quick.  Give details about it more.  For example if you are describing something you did, give details about things surrounding that.  If you jump to referring to another thing you so very quickly again, then it doesn't give much depth or expression to thing you just described.  And also brings about the "I" because you will refer to yourself doing something again "I did this" "I did that" "I did this" "I did that" That is boring.

I thought stanza ten was indeed a good example of complimenting actions with descriptiveness.  If that was done more in the rest of the poem, it could read much better.  

I hope that helps.



Brad
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since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
34 posted 2006-12-11 05:16 PM


It took me long enough.

Ares just doesn't ring true to me. Do you really think men are that, what, naive? A few months, years back, there was a controversial book on the empowerment of exotic dancers (I'm not making this up.). The idea was that one dancer felt that she had power over men as a result of dancing for them, she could see it in their eyes.

In truth, Ares would probably make a bunch of promises, sleep with Serenity, and never stop doing all the bad stuff, but plead his eternal weakness and pledge to try again and so on and so on.

I don't have problems with objectification, I don't have problems with male (or in this case female) power fantasies -- one could argue that I've never really grown up.

But I'm left unsatisfied precisely because I think the real story begins after sex.

How do you deal with Ares?

This, of course, is probably a different poem altogether so toss it into the scrap heap.


serenity blaze
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since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738

35 posted 2006-12-11 08:15 PM


I'm not sure if you want a spanking, or details, but either way? It's yer dime lovie!

*laughing*

Seriously though, when summoning demons, it is pretty standard procedure to call them out by mocking them--be they male or female. (See? It worked for YOU, now didn't it?)



Bring on Beo--oh-heh-BRAD-baby!

And I know, I know, I owe YOU a read too, (or three now, huh?) but um, I'm getting a little behind in my work. (start me up, I'll nevah stop)

Even if I weren't a pantheistic oriented pagan--I might point out--it's a POEM.

Ares, Mars--shrug.

After much thought, I decided I rather like my own poem. (Is that against the rules?) That doesn't happen often either. Even with all the self-absorbed pronouns of "I"--I think I'll keep most of it, but more than likely, I'll add to it, druther than subtract.


Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
36 posted 2006-12-15 10:33 PM


Oh, okay.

For the record, I like the slants.

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