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JenniferMaxwell
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0 posted 2006-10-14 04:05 PM


As CS mentioned in “Melencholia” this month’s poetry challenge in the Guardian is to write an ekphrasis.  Thought I’d try one just for fun using the three part requirement of:

Section one: Write as a person within the painting.
Section two: Now write as the painter.
Section three: Now finally write as you, the poet, perceiving the art

Van Gogh’s drawing “Winter Garden”
http://www.artnet.com/Images/magazine/reviews/karlins/karlins11-10-05-3.jpg


Winter Garden

So what shall I be
for you this time, Vincent,
in this colourless season;
the ghost of your brother
wearing your father's grief,
your disappointments and failures
lumpy as coal in your bin of self-pity?
Pose me if you like
as a floundering vicar in drag or inky
freudian slips, drab and dreary
on the crooked path and I shall swoon
from your brooding anger and shake
my fist at mother church and your other demons.
Oh, the drama of it all to be
the model for your sorrows,
veiled in the mantilla
of mystery and madness.

losing time confined
to pencil scrawls
ink blot splotches
tortured shapes
familiar ground
without the palette
the clock's unwound
& night draws down

Vicar in vestments, a widow in weeds,
Christ in Gethsemane, or
a wounded child drawn to a solace
that offers no comfort or warmth?

[This message has been edited by JenniferMaxwell (10-14-2006 08:14 PM).]

© Copyright 2006 JenniferMaxwell - All Rights Reserved
serenity blaze
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1 posted 2006-10-14 06:59 PM


I just can't stand seeing this with no one addressing it.

You deserve better Jen.

I'm pressed for time, but I'll save this for offline reading. I'm not sure if I know enough for an indepth critique, but I'll certainly give it a shot. Perhaps if we all stopped arguing and started doing, this stuff would not happen. (So smack me if I go back to that ridiculous thread, instead of critiquing poetry, as we should be, k? )

Now I'll save this, and think on it while I go do the housewifey gig.

And at the very least, I don't have to look at that nasty zero next to your name in the scroll.

tsk...and?

serenity blaze
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2 posted 2006-10-14 11:00 PM


Okay...

First of all, thank you. I had to look some things up, and I am always glad of an interesting learning experience. And congratulations too, on your choice. I had seen this rendering by Gogh before, but I guess I never really looked at it until now. It is now my background.  

I'm still learning how to do this critique thing, so please know that if I say something wrong, it's certainly not intended as insult.

I loved your opening:

"So what shall I be
for you this time, Vincent, "

I didn't interpret this so much as "eager to please" as it was "frustration"--I probably would have taken the third line as an opportunity to introduce myself as a color though, and continue on to personify the color--but that's my style, not necessarily yours.

"the ghost of your brother
wearing your father's grief"

I'm nodding here, because if you choose to remain in the monochrome, it's best to accentuate and give it emotion and yes, even monochrome has emotions--it's just one colored, layered. So yep, you still had me there.

"your disappointments and failures
lumpy as coal in your bin of self-pity?"

I sighed a bit here, because I think, especially since it is the first stanza, you could have merely alluded to disappointments and failures---I'm not sure if you have ever done work in charcoal or pastels, but part of technique is hard edge, sometimes moistened chalks, sharpened with emery and taking the kneadable eraser and dulling it, even using it as a bit of sponge in places, to "lift" the emphasis in places it is too dark. (sorry, I coudn't help but make the equation)
I tend to think that line is a bit blunt and dark, and the following, and grrrr...I hate critique--

but I have to confess I didn't like

"lumpy as coal in your bin of self pity".

Coals and lumps are a bit cliche',  but I liked the idea that it is fuel in a bin, self pity stokes itself. I'm not sure how I would resolve that, but I believe I would try to avoid simile.

"Pose me if you like"

I like  

it echoes the previous resigned willingness

I did jog again at

"as a floundering vicar in drag or inky"

smile..a vicar in drag. If you are into explaining your visuals, I am interested here.

"or inky
freudian slips, drab and dreary
on the crooked path and I shall swoon
from your brooding anger and shake
my fist at mother church and your other demons. "

That grabbed me. I love freudian slips, inky or otherwise and I especially love it when someone shakes their fists at the "untouchable institution"
of "mother church" or just mother (Hell, even FREUD would smile at that)

"and your other demons"

I swear I had a visual a game of football here, in the huddle, waiting for instructions from the coach, the quarterback, or just SOMEBODY.

"Oh, the drama of it all to be
the model for your sorrows, "

and perhaps that's all we can ever do, as we critique art that critiques art, that critiques....well, you get the idea.

And I'm going to beg your pardon in advance, because the second stanza?

"losing time confined
to pencil scrawls
ink blot splotches
tortured shapes
familiar ground
without the palette
the clock's unwound
& night draws down"

Call me a masochist (spelled with one ell) but I wanted to feel the pain there that I felt while viewing the art. But art is all relative, and I see, "loss with some left over" while looking at the work--you might see something else. But either way, I don't feel the weight of gravity in the verse that I feel in the visual.
*wince*

I really HATE doing critique--but quite honestly, I think you need a better bridge in the middle of this, especially when your final stanza evokes crucifixions of flesh. (And call me picky, but lose the ampersand here, k?)  It doesn't do much to dignify your obvious eye for detail, which I like very much.

To sum it up, my preference would tend to be a shorter, middle stanza, to marry the third and finalize it. Three stanzas, btw, gives you leave to play with trinity metaphor, since you introduce that yourself with the Gethsame'.

I think it's good. I think it could be better though.

The middle is bothersome to me. It seems off balance with the quatrain at the end, which introduced new ideas as I was looking for some reconciliation with the promise of that first verse.

Thanks for allowing me to think on this.

You taught me a few things.

As I said above, if it's a measurement of success, I did indeed set the drawing as my background. So obviously, you did evoke the emotion from me.


moonbeam
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3 posted 2006-10-15 06:00 AM


Jen, there’s not a lot more I want to say about this especially as we are nearly out of time!  Argg, I hate deadlines.

I think Karen has some excellent points and if it weren’t for the strictures imposed by the workshop guidelines I would have been wondering just what the heck you were doing in that second strophe too.  As it is the unnerving leap of syntax, diction etc really helps to convince me we’re suddenly inside the mind of a mad artist.  Glad you reduced L27.

The one thing that might be worth mentioning if you haven’t already sent is Karen’s point:

quote:
I tend to think that line is a bit blunt and dark, and the following, and grrrr...I hate critique--

but I have to confess I didn't like

"lumpy as coal in your bin of self pity".

Coals and lumps are a bit cliche',  but I liked the idea that it is fuel in a bin, self pity stokes itself. I'm not sure how I would resolve that, but I believe I would try to avoid simile.


I was very iffy about that line before but I wasn’t sure why exactly because although lumps and coal are maybe a bit cliche in this case that part works extremely well for me simply because it’s tied to the image in the painting, which makes it entirely new.

The bit that I don’t like so much is:

“In your bin of self pity”

It sounds kinda corny.  The sorta thing Humphrey Littleton would say to bring to an end the hilarious radio prog “I’m sorry I haven’t a Clue” - along the lines of “As the egg timer of destiny tips towards the precipice of fate ... etc etc”.  Incidentally if you don’t know the show and its mythical scorer Samantha this might bring a smile:

I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue Quotes, Series 32 - 35
Samantha Has To Go Now...
BBC Radio 4's I'm Sorry I Haven't Clue scorer Samantha rarely stays until the end of the show. Here's some of her excuses for leaving early:

Samantha has to nip out again to see an elderly lord who regularly complains to Radio 4 about their parliamentary coverage. She says she thinks he's even going to start getting a little hard on Today in parliament.
__________________

Samantha tells me she has to nip off to a rare breeds farm where they still plough with huge beasts of burden. She's become friendly with a couple of farmhands who are going to show her their gigantic ox.
__________________

Samantha has to nip out to take her German Shepherd to the park to give him a stroke while he licks her face and pants.
__________________

Samantha has got to go off early to meet an entymologist friend who's been showing her his collection of winged insects. They've already covered his bees and wasps and tonight she's hoping to go through his flies.
__________________

Samantha tells us she's off to a gourmet evening where her favourite French chef has prepared a nine course dinner. Looking at the menu, she says she's not so keen on some of his traditional dishes, but she spotted something tempting between the frogs legs.
__________________

Samantha has to nip out to the House of Lords with her constituency friend. He's looking for support for his MP who's facing expulsion, and Samantha says it's important to have a good peer if his member's likely to be out.
__________________

Samantha tells me she recently purchased a Tudor tankard bearing an engraved ode, believed to be by Shakespeare himself. This week she's taking it to be valued by the Antiques Roadshow programme. We can't wait to see Hugh Scully examining her jugs on it.
__________________

Samantha tells me she has to nip home as she has a man coming in to start work on her new patio. He's bringing round his cement mixer, and he's promised to layer roughly across the foundations.
__________________

Samantha tells me she has to nip out to greet a gentleman friend who's something of a shoe enthusiast. The last time she met him he was in his plimsoles with the crepe sole and felt upper.
__________________

Samantha has to nip down to the allotment to help a nice gentleman put his new fertilizer on his tomato plants. She's surprisingly keen to see his Grow More in the potting shed.
__________________

So, while Samantha nips out to enjoy a portion of winkles in cider.
__________________

Samantha tells me she's had to nip out to meet a nice chap who's training her in computer skills. Tonight she hopes he's going to show her the 3 1/2 inch floppy he's got in his Mac.
__________________

Samantha tells us she's taking her (driving) test this week. She says she can't wait to climb aboard her little Morris to demonstrate the correct use of the horn in a built-up area.
__________________

Samantha has to nip off to the National Opera where she's been giving private tuition to the singers. Having seen what she did to the baritone, the director is keen to see what she might to for a tenor.
__________________

Samantha tells me she's off with a team of local paramedics this evening. They're so excited at the thought, they just can't wait for her to arrive so they can get their ambulance and stretcher out for the night.

And so on and so on ....

Er ...(well my smutty soh likes it anyway - heh)

Where was I, ahh yes, “bin of self pity” sounds a little corny.  It might almost be better to end on coal, because the image is just so right for the picture.

I’m really sorry I didn’t say this before     .

Best.

M

Brad
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4 posted 2006-10-15 08:30 AM


I liked this one.

Two quick points however:

Though it may only be an idiosyncrasy on my part, I reall think you should cut down the alliteration. It tends to sound too Stan Leeish (Not that I dislike Stan Lee).

the lumpy coal line stands on its own, I don't think you need to talk about self pity.

Definitely liked the 'trick', loved the direct address here.


Not A Poet
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5 posted 2006-10-15 09:42 AM


I'm not familiar with this form but it looks like a pretty fair challenge. After reading a second time, I can only conclude that you absolutely nailed the stated 3 requirements. I almost feel like I could have produced the visual art without ever having seen it, just from your description.

I don't have any problem with part two. To the contrary, it is probably a very good description of the painter and could well be what he was thinking at the time.

I guess the only nit I have is that ampersand mentioned by Karen. That just does not belong in a writing this well constructed.

Thanks,
Pete

JenniferMaxwell
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6 posted 2006-10-15 11:40 AM


Thanks everyone for your very helpful comments.

Karen, thanks so much for your excellent critique. You picked up on the places I forced and really wasn’t too happy with. Lumpy, popped into my mind and wouldn’t let go. I forced the line to include that word. Thought it might work as the “model’s”  analysis of his emotional state.

S2 was based on his letters written during that period. But I made the mistake of trying to analyze the situation instead of following the guidelines and voicing what he was thinking at the time. Perhaps cutting everything except the first three lines, cleaning those up, adding a little might work better? Yes, the drawing is full of anguish and sorrow but I don’t think that was what was going through his head on a conscious level. Drag and inky? Good grief who put that in there? Indeed OTT and cheeky!

Moonbeam, thanks for the Samantha giggles, encouraging me to give this a try and helping me through it.

You’re right, Brad, too much alliteration - an easy trick that’s turned into a bad habit.

Thanks, Pete, good to know, even with all the stumbles, the mood came through.

moonbeam
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7 posted 2006-10-15 02:15 PM


Pete's comments have reminded me to mention that the workshop wasn't about a "form" as such, just a way of developing a particular type of poem i.e. ekphrasis.

Also if you read closely I don't think that she is suggesting that you have to end up with a poem in three parts or three voices, just that you develop it as such, and then go forward with the voice(s) with which you feel most comfortable.

At least I hope I read that right!

M

JenniferMaxwell
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8 posted 2006-10-15 02:40 PM



I was a little confused by part 2 of the guidelines, mb.  Since I wasn’t really planning on submitting anything, just trying it for practice, I stuck with the three part poem. If doing only one part is ok, guess I’d work on part one of this. Seems that’s the voice that works best for me, plus I could add some of what’s in 2 and 3.

A little more about ekphrasis under MIMESIS on this site:
http://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/lit_terms_M.html


moonbeam
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9 posted 2006-10-15 02:49 PM


Jennifer!!

Are you telling me you're not going to submit it!?

Geez!  Get it in girl - you have 4 hours and 10 minutes.

M

PS  Thanks for the interesting link.

PPS  From the Guardian Unlimited site:

"Step One
There are three sections to the poem you are writing.
Section one: Write as a person within the painting. (If the painting is an abstract or a still life, you may write as an object or as the paint.)
Section two: Now write as the painter.
Section three: Now finally write as you, the poet, perceiving the art.

Step Two
Which voice do you like best? Which voice gained the most knowledge, and which voice wonders the most (and do you prefer knowing to wondering)? Is there a subject emerging, one you didn't know about when you began? Determine if all three sections work together, or choose the one(s) that you think are promising, and revise the work to your vision. Sometimes I end up with a three-section poem, and sometimes I end up only focusing on one voice. Whatever is most interesting is the best way to go."

I think the last line there says it all.  Step 1 is merely a step along the route to developing the poem.

rhia_5779
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10 posted 2006-10-16 10:18 AM


What is an ekphrasis? I thought the imagery was good here. I only managed to read the first stanza, and the imagery was vivid in my mind. I read above and read ekphrasis and wanted to know what that was before I went any farther. Soon as I know what that is, I will be sure to crittique and read the rest of your poem.
JenniferMaxwell
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11 posted 2006-10-16 10:24 AM



Hi Rhia. Here's a link to the Guardian site that explains ekphrasis. Hope that helps.

ChristianSpeaks
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12 posted 2006-10-16 11:14 AM


Rhia -

For some reason the link didn't post, or, at least, I didn't see it. So here you go.
http://books.guardian.co.uk/poetryworkshop/

cs

serenity blaze
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13 posted 2006-10-16 03:51 PM


I want to thank you for the link and the invitation too, Jen. (the link is on my desktop too now)

I think I really like this as a personal challenge, and I hope to have something to offer you guys soon.


serenity blaze
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14 posted 2006-10-16 04:27 PM


I find myself stuck already.

I can't seem to decide on a suitable picture.

Any suggestions?


moonbeam
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15 posted 2006-10-16 05:33 PM


Invent one.

Or a sculpture.

Or a movie.

Or any work of art.

JenniferMaxwell
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16 posted 2006-10-16 05:34 PM


Thanks for catching that, CS, can't imagine what happened.

Karen, don't know what type of art you like, but my suggestion based on personal experience would be to pick something that puzzles you a bit maybe or something you've seen a while ago that's stuck quietly in the back of your mind. Good luck, I'm very anxious to see what you come up with.


serenity blaze
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17 posted 2006-10-16 05:39 PM


Hmmm...

the "invent one" idea, that intrigues me-- but not sure how that could be critiqued to the form?

Because if the source is irrelevant, I do indeed owe Jen an apology, as I based my critique on the comparison/contrast aspect.

You guys challenge me, though, I'll give ya that.

ChristianSpeaks
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18 posted 2006-10-16 05:45 PM


Before I landed on the etching I was using I thought about using a Coke can or some advertisement on the side of the road. Doesn't have to be classic art.

CS

serenity blaze
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19 posted 2006-10-16 05:50 PM


"something that puzzles you a bit maybe or something you've seen a while ago that's stuck quietly in the back of your mind."

Now THAT helps.

I usually write the stuff in my head that won't shaddup anyhow.

Now let me turn off this thing, otherwise I won't hear that "whisper shout" I call my "muse". Groan..that sounds so pompous.

sorry. *wince*

and thanks

JenniferMaxwell
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20 posted 2006-10-16 05:57 PM


CS, what a fantastic idea, a coke can or an advertisment! Brilliant! Hope you'll give it a try sometime!
moonbeam
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21 posted 2006-10-16 06:11 PM


quote:
but not sure how that could be critiqued to the form


Ummmm it's not a "form" as such Karen.

Just write a poem, free verse or formal or anything about a piece of "art".

The three voices suggestion is just that particular poet's way of getting your creative thingies flowing.

M


serenity blaze
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22 posted 2006-10-16 07:56 PM


and a "tsk" to me...

I thought I had, but it's been done.

"Strange Fruit"

sigh

but right above my monitor is an original, much cherished photograph sent to me by a Pip member.

I'll try to do her justice.

Essorant
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23 posted 2006-10-17 01:27 AM


Jennifer

This is well written as far as structure goes.  But I found it goes off on its own abstract thing far too much to meet the expression of the artwork very well.  

I think it needs more focus on building on the things that the artwork itself gives most visual emphasis to.  For example the landscape's barrenness, and the twisted-looking aspect of the trees.  How the landscape surrounds and overhangs the figure on the path/journey seeking a distant church-like building; what the surroundings may bode for the figure and his journey.

These are things that really stand out in the drawing, but seem to lack much poetic emphasis in your poem.


JenniferMaxwell
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24 posted 2006-10-17 02:05 AM


Thanks, Ess. My first draft was really very close to what you’re suggesting. Thought that was the only way to go when I started, but when I looked at it later it seemed so stale and predictable. Tried to put a different twist on it when I did the re-write. Perhaps I took it a little too far. I see many flaws in the second version which I will be revising, but honestly, I’m glad I decided to change direction. Forced me to start thinking out of the box. Thanks again for your input, Ess. Maybe on the next revision I should try blending the concrete with the abstract.

moonbeam
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25 posted 2006-10-17 04:28 AM


Actually Ess, given the examples that Amy Newman chose, I think Jen probably did the right thing.  It struck me that a poem simply describing a picture was not what she was looking for.

When she says things like:

"Which voice gained the most knowledge, and which voice wonders the most (and do you prefer knowing to wondering)?"

it makes me feel that she is looking for the poet to go "behind" the mere picture.

Just MHO.

M

ChristianSpeaks
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26 posted 2006-10-17 11:20 AM


Sort of agreeing with M-

I think your point, Ess, is the cool part about the form. Not only is each piece effeced by the writing style of the writer, it is further effected by how the writer sees the art about which they are writing.

(did that make sense)

So your point reflects what you saw in the art as apparent. Not particularly what Jennifer saw.

Kinda confusing - at least to me - but cool all along.

CS

Essorant
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27 posted 2006-10-17 11:22 AM


Hello

I agree.  I didn't mean she should simply describe the picture, but focus more on building upon the visual aspects of the drawing and give more poetic emphasis to the things that have more visual emphasis in the drawing.

Take a look at how important the landscape is in that drawing.  Especially the outstanding aspect and role the trees have in bringing out mood and suggestion.   There is also the aspect of this stark landscape surrounding and overhanging a figure on a specific path/journey to a distant church-like building.  The landscape and the way it surrounds the figure on his way is essential to the drawing, therefore I think it is essential to any good poem about the drawing as well.

If you look at ChristianSpeak's attempt I felt there was a very similar weakness--not enough poetic focus on the elements that are visually given by the artwork itself.

As Jennifer suggested, I think a better balance between concrete and abstract may do much better.  

Take care.


rhia_5779
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28 posted 2006-10-17 12:31 PM


I can't say anything about whether I thought it was an epkrasis or not cause I still don't get that , even though I looked at the site. Is there a simple way someone can explain it to me? Please.

I thought the imagery here was good, as I read I actually pictured an artist , you know how you have to find the picture in some paintings, it could be different thins. I pictured an artist with each stroke of the brush adding possibility to the painting. Having all the little shapes make miniscule pictures and one big one and he was painting it so people could see it. I loved the imagery.

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29 posted 2006-10-25 09:53 PM


Vincent is one of my favorites, and has often inspired me to write. I thoroughly enjoyed this, and learned a new term in the process.
To me, creating word art inspired from visual art is always an adventure in feeling the other artist as well as tapping into yourself. It's a bold attempt to get inside another artist's soul space and then share the experience with your readers.
You did a fine job, and I thank you for sharing with me.

JenniferMaxwell
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30 posted 2006-10-25 10:33 PM


Thanks very much, rhia and Midnitesun. I learned a lot about Van Gogh while doing research for the poem. His letters and bio are almost as fascinating and compelling as his paintings.


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