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Melencholia
| Critical Analysis #2 |
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Melencholia |
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ChristianSpeaks Member
since 2006-05-18
Posts 396Iowa, USA |
Okay, this is my first try at an ekphrasis. There are examples and an explaination at http://books.guardian.co.uk/poetryworkshop/ under the October Workshop. I thought this was interesting because I was reading Charles Bukowsk and he spoke of Melencholia. So I looked it up and found art to go with the term. Please let loose on this one. Pay particualar attention to punctuation and what could be eliminated. Below is the Bukowski piece (credit given) as well as the address of the art and then what I wrote. Cheers CS Melancholia the history of melancholia includes all of us. Charles Bukowski Melancholia I by Albrecht Dürer : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Melencolia_I.jpg ________________________________________________________________ The disease has set in the lighted candle wick where wax is stone and rages rather than burns. Imagine a depression so final and proud, a prohibition on joy where violation sentences you to more of the same. Imagine a vacuum. laughless, where Cupid and Gabriel sit with their faces in their hands wondering how to improve themselves. This is what I see. What drips off me while I stew in that, the bile of men’s emotion. Who am I if I can't love, What am I if I can't hate, and what is the result when I can't tell the difference? Dane Barner [This message has been edited by ChristianSpeaks (10-11-2006 01:40 PM).] |
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| © Copyright 2006 Dane Barner - All Rights Reserved | |||
JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
"Pay particualar attention to punctuation..." Makes it seem like you're testing us. Are you? Have you proofed the work yourself? Have you paid particular attention to punctuation, capitalization, etc.? What areas do you have doubts about? [This message has been edited by JenniferMaxwell (10-10-2006 08:47 PM).] |
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ChristianSpeaks Member
since 2006-05-18
Posts 396Iowa, USA |
Jennifer- Why so confrontational? There have been several conversations about critique messages. I was only trying to be clear that I was asking for a rather heavy hand when taking a look at this. Sometimes my spelling and grammar are not very good. There are those who know much more than I. It is not my job to test anyone in this forum. Nor do I have the clout to begin to think that I can tell you what to do. My request might have come in the form of a statement, and if that offends you I am sorry. I've only been "writing" for about 5 minutes compared to many people here - I did not think my request was confrontational. Maybe look at what was below the request and take the same tact. Love from the PNW CS Who am I if I can't love, What am I if I can't hate, and what is the result when I can't tell the difference? Dane Barner |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
You said let loose and I did, but not as much as I could have. Had I not held back I would have said it looks like you dashed this piece off in about five minutes, never even proof read it and you seemed to be asking us to do the work and clean it up for you. Sorry, but if you’re not going to put a real effort into your work before you post it, like using spell check, grammar check programs and proof reading, then why should I or anyone bother with it? |
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ChristianSpeaks Member
since 2006-05-18
Posts 396Iowa, USA |
I imagine I should be flattered that you have looked at it at all. Pass judgement all you want - I'm just looking for improvements that one can miss after looking at the same thing for quite some time. If you think that it's bad, great. Just tell me why. (Have I offended you in some other life?) CS |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Actually, you may not realize it but your tone is more caustic than mine. No need to worry though, it doesn't upset me in the least. I see you've made an attempt to clean up some of the most glaring errors. Time to move on and check out these lines: - and rages rather than burn. - to more the same. - sit with their face in their hands - wandering how to improve themselves. And please, get rid of these lines before I lose my lunch: - while I stew in that, - the bile of men’s emotion No, not in another life, just this one.  |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Sorry Dane but I have to side, at least somewhat, with Jennifer on this one. You did specifically ask to check punctuation but it really looks like you made no attempt to get it right, almost like you expected the forum to do it all for you. We accept that there are beginners who really don't understand punctuation but still have something to say. Had this been presented as such, I'm sure you would have received a different response. We occassionally have a writer whose English is a second language. They also tend to be excused more for language blunders. There are also those who simply are not good spellers. They should rely heavily on a dictionary. In your case, I know you can do better and I think Jennifer agrees on that. That said, however, I'll take a shot at your request. I won't try to rewrite your words but only copy it here to insert what I think might be reasonable punctuation (and spelling where I catch it). Additions are in () and deletions are in []. The disease has set in( (the) lighted candle wick where wax is stone and rages rather than burn(s). Imagine a depression so final and proud(,) a prohibition on joy where violation sentences you to more (of) the same. Imagine a vacuum(,) [–] laughless(,) where cupid and Gabriel sit with their face(s) in their hands w[a](o)ndering how to improve themselves. This is what I see(,) [–] What drips off me while I stew in that, the bile of men’s emotion(s). Actually, after my rant above, it really wasn't all that bad. But still, you should have caught most of this before posting. I have seen you do better. Thanks, Pete |
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ChristianSpeaks Member
since 2006-05-18
Posts 396Iowa, USA |
Thanks Pete. Changes made. Jennifer - should be cleaner. |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
CS, I appreciated your effort in attempting to put a voice and images to depression, but I feel the imagery was not strong enough. The first stanza confused me a bit...perhaps due to the lack of punctuation. I reread it, and the image of stone raging doesn't truly create a picture of "melancholia". Then the next stanza is more a narrative than imagery, though I did like the third stanza. I do, however, think you should leave out laughless...it is too obvious. Perhaps try to work with the image you create in this stanza, and extend it. Kris "It is wisdom to know others; |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Much better. Thank you. Now work on substance. First question - Are you going to enter this? Because if you are I think you need to rework it to fit the challenge requirements of three parts, object, artist and poet. Briefly, regarding substance, here are the parts that didn't work for me: - lighted candle wick - depression so proud - what do you mean by that? how is depression proud? - a violation sentences you to more - have no idea what you're getting at with that line. - laughless - is that really a word? sticks out like a sore thumb, try to come up with something else - wondering how to improve themselves - nah, don't think so - and the stewing in bile lines really, really make me nauseous. Ever seen a GI drain, the collection container? Trust me, not a pleasant sight. Please, try to express this in a different way. Confrontation isn't a bad thing, if it clears the air. So there! |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Another point. Maybe a little more research might expand your thoughts on the subject and give more depth to your poem. I’m doing my ekphrasis on Van Gogh’s “Winter Garden”. I spent five hours or so last night doing research on Van Gogh, that particular drawing, others he did during that period and reading some of the letters he wrote around that time as well as background on his relations with his family. What I learned from reading gave me a direction and hopefully added depth to my poem. |
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ChristianSpeaks Member
since 2006-05-18
Posts 396Iowa, USA |
quote: No, I was just giving this form a try; seeing of I could get anything out of it(and, for me personally, it was quite challenging) The author said tha she sometimes uses all three parts, and sometimes just a particular section. That was where my thinking was. I am going to work a bit on this using the comments that you and Kris left me. Thank you both. Dane |
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ChristianSpeaks Member
since 2006-05-18
Posts 396Iowa, USA |
Jennifer- Sorry cross post. Here's what I've done for research. -Got the idea from Bukowski - did research on his life and how his overall feeling towards society gave these two lines a lot more meaning. -Researched the meaning of the term in the 5th/4th century BC to the 17th cent. art that I included with the post. - I did not research the artist because my direction had come more from the term and the included piece. I almost wrote about Van Gogh - Corridor in the Asylum - There is a nice collection of images at: http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/gogh/asylum/. Just in case you may be able to use it. Okay, back to work. Dane |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
I hope you'll take the time to research Dürer before you start revising your poem. I'm sure you'll come up with a lot of material that will add depth and substance to your poem. I'm still working on my poem. I'll be posting it first in dark, probably tomorrow, and let it set for a while before I start revising it. Please feel free to let loose on it if you have a mind to. It's really not very good but the subject for me was difficult since I tried to do it in three parts and two of them were really from the the artist's perspective as I saw him as both the veiled figure in the drawing and the artist. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I like the third stanza, but I wonder, if you have the time, try a free association exercise or something -- there's a lot to that painting and I don't think you're fully exploring what it can give you. At least not yet. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
I thought it was an engraving, Brad. |
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ChristianSpeaks Member
since 2006-05-18
Posts 396Iowa, USA |
It is and engraving - 1514. Brad- how do you mean? quote: Do you mean using what I see in the engraving? I like the idea. Help me out if you can. Dane |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
CS I think you need to focus more on the elements that are in the engraving. For example, what about the rainbow, the compass, the balance, the cube, the hourglass, the bell, the chart on the wall, the ladder, the dog, the ball? Without using the elements and symbols that the artwork itself has, I don't think it does the artwork much justice. It is more about your own way of artistically presenting "melancholia" instead of reflecting on the artwork's way of doing so. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
CS Did you find the sonnet by Edward Dowden about Durer's Melencholia? Durer's 'Melencholia' THE bow of promise, this lost flaring star, Terror and hope are in mid-heaven; but She, The mighty-wing'd crown'd Lady Melancholy, Heeds not. O to what vision'd goal afar Does her thought bear those steadfast eyes which are A torch in darkness? There nor shore nor sea, Nor ebbing Time vexes Eternity, Where that lone thought outsoars the mortal bar. Tools of the brain--the globe, the cube--no more She deals with; in her hand the compass stays; Nor those, industrious genius, of her lore Student and scribe, thou gravest of the fays, Expect this secret to enlarge thy store; She moves through incommunicable ways. Edward Dowden From Poet's Corner |
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ChristianSpeaks Member
since 2006-05-18
Posts 396Iowa, USA |
Ess- Thanks for that! I had not read it. I am in the process of doing a major rewrite. There is quite a bit of research on the etching that has been done over the years. I had stayed away from it due to the way I'd come about the etching. Jennifer kinda got me going with the background. Here in the next couple of days I'll go ahead and repost. Thank you for the insight - and thanks to all of you for your intellegent comments. Dane |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I see you are in the process of a major re-write, and I can add here, only emphasis of our friend Pete. Bukowski being a personal favorite of mine, I was glad to see you resisted the urge to mimick, and I have sinned that sin too many times myself. But re-write? Sure. But keep the essence of this. It's solid. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
How is your rewrite coming along? |
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