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UseTheIllusion
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since 2006-02-06
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In a state of limbo

0 posted 2006-09-18 04:06 PM


He hides behind the shadows,
Waiting for the chance to strike,
He makes ready the gallows,
And primes himself for the fight.  

The anonymity of the internet allows him to lurk,
In the dark, so he can do his work,
He has the prerogative to be a jerk,
And while his intentions may be good,
The dulled knife stabbed still hurts.  

His air of superiority,
Combined with innate pomp,
Cause him to judge you and me,
What will make him stop?

His condemnation leads to separation,
A diving line between the poetry nations,
Two opposing parties,
The question of nature or nurture,
The shards of the poetry he has smashed,
Will be walked upon by those whose poetry he has butchered.  

He doesn’t just profane the poem,
He profanes the poet too,
And once you have been subject to his decrees,
You will understand how this effects you.  

If poetry is posted, for others to read,
Than it shows you put your soul into it,
And people should show mercy,
Even if it’s bad or good,
And even if it’s misunderstood,
A poem once posted is a product of the heart,
So show some decency,
And tear it apart gently.  

Do not mistake,
I do not look down upon criticism,
But when not done in a helpful way,
It does nothing more than irritate passions.  


© Copyright 2006 UseTheIllusion - All Rights Reserved
cynicsRus
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1 posted 2006-09-18 04:48 PM


OK, it's obvious this is meant as a poetic rant against critics whose heavy handed approach you, like so many others here, find disagreeable. But after all, it is posted in CA, therefore open to criticism, so:
Your poem is riddled by trite expressions and forced rhyme--which is inconsistent at that.
Your meter has so many bumps it should make the most elementary student of poetry wince.
I'd recommend looking up Metrics and Metric Feet in Bob's Byway
Until you've become sufficiently familiar with those terms, you may want to pursue the Freestyle approach. In which case, you’ll mainly need to improve on metaphors and similes.
I'll leave it for someone else to critique the premise.

I hope this was helpful.

Sid

If you must carp: Carpe diem!
ICSoria
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moonbeam
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2 posted 2006-09-18 05:15 PM


OoopseeDaisy ... there it is:

"SHARDS"

~looks around for "shattered"~

omggg "SMASHED" ...

such fabulous originality.

.......

Pete (as in moderator Pete)

Please check your e-mail shortly.

Thank you.

Moonbeam.

Essorant
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3 posted 2006-09-18 09:23 PM


"tear it apart gently."





kif kif
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4 posted 2006-09-19 04:15 AM


I think this is a question of style. Using someone else's thread to rant on about personal opinion of intent in a forum is bad-mannered...and like begets like, forcing up poets to rant on about personal opinion of another's behaviour, using a thinly-disguised attempt at a poem to do it, which is also bad-mannered.

Sure, there are good questions stumbled on within this malaise, but everyone forgets to answer them as the snide-levels increase.

Bringing me back to my question of style. There's better.

moonbeam
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5 posted 2006-09-19 04:53 AM


Kif-kif

I’ll have to answer you here because I don’t know how to contact you.  I assume when you say “Using someone else's thread to rant on about personal opinion of intent in a forum is bad-mannered ...” you are talking about something I’ve done?

Let’s get this nailed once and for all please.

Could you be specific please.  Are you talking about my comments in Kris’s thread “Decomposition” or something else I’ve done?

Regards.

M

kif kif
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6 posted 2006-09-19 09:07 AM


I'm talking about this poem, and what I think, as as reader, has prompted it. This poem talks of 'other poets' and 'poems' and 'critique'. My comment is on the style of content.

Your coments here, moonbeam, veer off to directly talk to someone else while creating a 'dig' at the author ("check your e-mail") therefore is a bad-mannered style petinient to this write, so I suppose that's why you think it's all about you.

rhia_5779
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7 posted 2006-09-19 09:17 AM


No, actually I think he may have been referring to the poem above. When I read it it may be wrong for me to have thought of this but it seemed like Usetheillusion was almost using this to get at Moonbeam. Moonbeam, well you tend to be alittle harder on people than some others. That isn't really a bad thing, you look deeper than the words, and I at least respect your oppinion highly, but I can understand why some people might think you are being mean.
I do think this poem did have much forced ryming and it didn't flow very smoothly either. It also wasn't very subtle if it was sopposed to be criticism of Moonbeam, nor UsetheIllusion is it your place to be doing that. Don't post in CA if you are not prepared to be mature enough to accept criticism gracefully.

kif kif
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8 posted 2006-09-19 09:19 AM


I agree with Rhia...'all this stuff' should be posted in Feelings or The Alley...that's normally where grace goes out of the window, isn't it?
rhia_5779
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9 posted 2006-09-19 09:20 AM


Moonbeam, do you write poetry? You seem to have a very sophisticated and mature look at poetry, and I searched you and it says you haven't posted any poetry. If you do would you mind posting some of it, I would very much like to see what you write.  
Not A Poet
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10 posted 2006-09-19 09:45 AM


This sort of discussion does more properly belong in teh Alley. But, this technically is poetry and can legitimately be posted here. I don't think it was posted for criticism though and that makes it suspect.

Either way, we can leave it here as long as we try to keep the discussion impersonal.

moonbeam
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11 posted 2006-09-19 09:58 AM


“I'm talking about this poem, and what I think, as as reader, has prompted it. This poem talks of 'other poets' and 'poems' and 'critique'. My comment is on the style of content.

Your coments here, moonbeam, veer off to directly talk to someone else while creating a 'dig' at the author ("check your e-mail") therefore is a bad-mannered style petinient to this write, so I suppose that's why you think it's all about you.”

I don’t THINK it’s about me, I know it.  At least let’s have a bit of honesty here.

Look Kif-kif if people post poems attacking other people in a forum where supposedly attacking other people is the number 1 “no-no” and the moderator does nothing about it two things are gonna happen.  The first is that the person attacked isn’t likely to make constructive comments on the “poem” and the second is that she’s going to try and contact the moderator to ask him to do something about it.  

You have a problem with that?

M


Rhia

It seems you’re forever defending me!  Thanks.

Did you see my long post in your “Empty Corridors” thread?  Do you want to have a go or not?

Yes I do write poems.  I tend to post them when I think that other’s comments can help me improve a poem or when I am trying to teach somebody something and I use one of my own poems to make a point.  I’d be happy to send you a couple in e-mail when I see how things are going to pan out in this forum.  And anyway if we end up doing the workshop thing in your thread you’ll get to see some of my writing.  Don’t get too excited I’m not quite Sharon Olds, Ted Hughes or Dylan Thomas though!

Please let me know what you want to do in the Empty Corridors thread.

Oh and btw good job on your replies on this thread grammatical correct English.  Brilliant, and thanks very much for taking notice of me I’m grateful.

M


moonbeam
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12 posted 2006-09-19 09:58 AM


Ok Pete just cross-posted.  Any chance of your thoughts on this?

M

cynicsRus
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13 posted 2006-09-19 01:07 PM


What a complete waste of time this thread has become. I have nothing against the writer’s original intent to rant about someone’s heavy-handed style, but if he wishes to post a poem in CA, he’d better understand that it will be subject to critique—caustic or otherwise. It’s my opinion the author would have been better off posting a rant in a discussion forum and leaving the poetry alone until he is more adept at crafting it.
However, if comments must be made regarding another post, unrelated to this one, post them there. Why clog this one further.

M,
If your desire is for the subjects of your critiques to grow thicker skin and learn to take a critical thrashing—which I personally feel is needed on occasion—then you will need to begin leading by example. You are indeed becoming overly sensitive regarding negative, rant-laden posts. In CS’s post it was actually a worthwhile poem that could stand on its own and should have been approached as such in criticizing it. Pete was right in not deleting it. In this example however, it’s just terrible poetry, undeserving of Line by Line, much less perfunctory comments regarding the prosaic content. You’re winning arguments, while losing debates and using too broad a brush to define “personal attacks.” You are close to losing what little support you do have on these boards.
My advice, as a non-apple-polishing supporter: Lighten up.

Sid

If you must carp: Carpe diem!
ICSoria

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Not A Poet
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14 posted 2006-09-19 01:36 PM


Sorry M. Not sure what you mean by cross-posted. I must have missed something.

Essorant
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15 posted 2006-09-19 02:24 PM


It seems Moonbeam meant you posted while he/she was posting/writing the post that showed up after yours.    
moonbeam
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16 posted 2006-09-19 03:10 PM


"If your desire is for the subjects of your critiques to grow thicker skin and learn to take a critical thrashing—which I personally feel is needed on occasion—then you will need to begin leading by example. You are indeed becoming overly sensitive regarding negative, rant-laden posts. In CS’s post it was actually a worthwhile poem that could stand on its own and should have been approached as such in criticizing it. Pete was right in not deleting it. In this example however, it’s just terrible poetry, undeserving of Line by Line, much less perfunctory comments regarding the prosaic content. You’re winning arguments, while losing debates and using too broad a brush to define “personal attacks.” You are close to losing what little support you do have on these boards.
My advice, as a non-apple-polishing supporter: Lighten up."


Sorry Sid a workshop is a workshop.  

I am leading by example in confining my criticism to poems.

The mistake here began when Christian's original poem was allowed to stand.  That perhaps made me slightly oversensitive and I misread yours it appears - though I'm still not clear what you are getting at!  

Either you have a rule against personal attacks and derogatory personal comments or you don't.  I don't make personal attacks and I don't expect others to.  Furthermore if I make a mistake I apologise for it.  

Personal comments of an inaccurate or derogatory nature are destructive both on and offline, but are especially damaging in what is meant to be a constructive working place - as we are seeing.

As for the suggestion that Christian's poem should have been allowed to stand because it
had poetic merit I think you'll see if you consider that statement for two seconds how illogical it is.

I can post a vitriolic diatribe in verse about anyone here can I? and as long as it has poetic merit all will be well.

Humm.

And anyway Sid, as you say yourself, this poem is still here and it has no merit.

Pete?

And you didn't answer my e-mail Pete.

Did you get it?

M



moonbeam
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17 posted 2006-09-19 03:45 PM


Look Sid

Maybe I wasn't too clear above.

The nub of this is that in a workshop you either accept negative, even harsh, critque as being constructive or you don't.

I want no part of a workshop that doesn't. And if the moderator of the forum is going to allow people who receive negative critiques to "fight back" by writing poems making personal comments about the person who has spent time reading and commenting on their poems then this place is never going to work as a place to learn how to write poetry.

Bottom line is that you don't throw hissy fits about negative crits - NOT EVER.  Not in prose or poems or song or semaphore.  

Gawd almighty there are some supposed adults on this forum who could take a lesson from the 13 year old Rhia in how to behave in a workshop.

You probably think I'm making an inordinate fuss about this issue.  If I thought it was unimportant or would simply "go away" I’d do as you say Sid and “chill out”.  The fact is though that this won’t go away.  I will continue to say what I think about poems in the way that I think is best for the writer and unless I know where the moderator of the site stands on this it’s pretty pointless for me to continue posting because I’m not going to spend my time here working to help people write to be rewarded with a load of petulant personal poetry.

The issue goes to the heart of why this forum wasn’t working and why Warmhrt wrote her poem.  

So sorry Sid if I disappoint you, I’m ready to “lighten up” on this issue just as soon as it’s dealt with in a way that gives me confidence for the future.

Kind regards

M


Essorant
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18 posted 2006-09-19 04:33 PM


Pete
May you move this poem to the moderators' forum for question?  

Not A Poet
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19 posted 2006-09-19 05:00 PM


Ess, I won't move it yet but I will bring a link to the Mod group for outside opinions.

True enough, the poem could be interpreted as a personal attack but I think just as easily it might not. I have to agree with Sid that is not very good poetry and probably has no hope of ever being so. But that doesn't make it ineligible for the forum. Also, I think it hard to start a personal attack whith nothing more specific than what is here. In fact, I am finding some of the comments closer to being unacceptable. And that is a bad thing since there is also some worthwhile information buried among them.

Maybe we all need to kind of back off an chill out a bit before we lose control. It took a long time for CA to reach its current condition and may take a while to change it so try a little patience and tolerance.

Sorry M. I did not receive an email that I am aware of. Bear in mind that I deal with about 100 or so per day so it could slip through.

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20 posted 2006-09-19 05:19 PM


Pete

I didn't know you were dealing with such a volume.  I apologise.

On whether it's a personal attack or not I think it's very simple.  All you have to do is ask the question:

"Were MY comments in forum the catalyst for this poem or not?"

If anyone is seriously in doubt of the fact that they were then I suppose I give up.

As for the other element i.e. whether it was a personal attack per se - perhaps someone could explain how lines like:

"He has the prerogative to be a jerk,"

and ...

"His air of superiority,
Combined with innate pomp,"

and ...

"He doesn’t just profane the poem,
He profanes the poet too"

are NOT a personal attack?

(The last being particularly aggravating as it is something I take particular care never to do.)

I would really be most grateful Pete if this could be addressed if necessary, as you say, by an external mod.

Thank you.

M

cynicsRus
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21 posted 2006-09-19 05:33 PM


quote:
The nub of this is that in a workshop you either accept negative, even harsh, critque as being constructive or you don't.

Here’s where you misunderstand my stance. If you think I’m against negative or harsh critique, you may want to familiarize yourself with some of my own past comments, back before I got fed up with the same sorts of things that are nagging at you these days. No we mustn’t throw hissy fits regarding negative critique, but we also shouldn’t throw them over negative responses to one’s opinion as you’ve done each time you felt I didn’t sufficiently back you up—well, at least not in semaphore—I’m all for poetic responses. And I stand by my comment that Pete should have let the poem stand. And if you really knew me, you’d realize that it has nothing to do with my personal feelings for Pete either as a person or as a Mod. He and I have had more than one go-round on differences of opinion with more than a few barbs thrown. Ron and I debated many of these same points as well until I finally had to conclude that there are certain aspects of this little PIP utopia that I will never change. It just boils down to plain fact and owner’s prerogative.
quote:
... and unless I know where the moderator of the site stands on this it’s pretty pointless for me to continue posting because I’m not going to spend my time here working to help people write to be rewarded with a load of petulant personal poetry
The issue goes to the heart of why this forum wasn’t working and why Warmhrt wrote her poem.

As long as the more venerated members come out writing their poetic rants, too vague for those for whom the words are really meant, garnering only nods of approval from the mods, such poems will hardly make much of a difference—ever—other than to generate more such poetry, the kind that has become the proverbial burr under your saddle.


If you must carp: Carpe diem!
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ChristianSpeaks
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22 posted 2006-09-19 05:56 PM


Can I add?

"The nub of this is that in a workshop you either accept negative, even harsh, critque as being constructive or you don't."

Do you mean in all workshops? Everywhere? Do you mean the good ones? Which workshops? I have been in workshops, albiet not writing workshops, where I received criticism that was harsh and completely stupid. I want to know where you came up with the idea that criticism has to be so negative and destructive. I ask becuse in the last day or so you have given criticism that was clear, concise, correct, and boardered very nearly on compasionate. I just want to know where you came up with that thinking.

I hate to say it, but your little "whatever you've done" has been rather nice.....[EDIT by moderator], but well, you'll have that. Please answer my question.

CS

An artist's job is not to commentate the truth.
An artist's job is to create it.
-Dane Barner

[This message has been edited by Not A Poet (09-20-2006 09:02 AM).]

Grinch
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23 posted 2006-09-19 06:19 PM



I think the poem needs a lot of work, so much in fact I doubt the end product would look anything like the fist draft. CynicsRus was right about the meter and the forced rhyme, in addition the whole poem lacked any real meat or venom that is essential in this type of poem.

As to whether this poem is a personal attack I’d have to say no, it may have been sparked by an event specific to a person or persons but the target is unclear (in fact I thought it was aimed at someone else the first time I read it, maybe because I was under the impression that Moonbeam was female – sorry Moonbeam).

There have been a few poems of this type lately, some lamenting the standard of posts and some the acidic critiques, all of them have been loose shots in the general direction of their targets, none has been a clear attack upon one specific person. Kris attacked fluff posters in general, she probably had specific people in mind but didn’t name them, CS and UseTheIllusion attacked critics in general in the same way, if one is removed what about the others?


moonbeam
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24 posted 2006-09-19 06:29 PM


Nope Sid don't worry I didn't misunderstand you at all on this occasion.

When I said:

“The nub of this is that in a workshop you either accept negative, even harsh, critique as being constructive or you don't.”

the “you” in that was meant to be generic.  

I didn’t mean “you” as in Sid, I was just making a general statement.

Actually I am rather well aware of your, er, “record” Sid - valiant and deserving of admiration it is too!

M

moonbeam
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25 posted 2006-09-20 03:21 AM


Grinch

I respect your view.  

I still don't agree that posts of this nature should be left on the board.

Perhaps someone should simply ask UseTheIIIusion who this was aimed at.

M

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26 posted 2006-09-20 07:03 AM


Christian

"The nub of this is that in a workshop you either accept negative, even harsh, critque as being constructive or you don't."

I want to know where you came up with the idea that criticism has to be so negative and destructive.

>>>Who said it HAS to be negative and destructive? I certainly didn't.  Criticism can be harsh, negative, very positive, compassionate, clever, witty, informed, banal etc etc  It should never however be "destructive" in the sense that it seeks to deliberately pull apart someone's writing just for the hell of it regardless of the quality of the writing or whether the critic thinks he is helping the poet or not.

>>>What I said was that, IF a critic chooses to make a negative comment because he thinks it will help the poet to say what he belives to be true, THEN the poet should simply accept that opinion gratefully and simply be thankful that someone has been good enough to read his poem and comment.  Whether the poet actually takes any notice of the negative opinion is entirely up to the poet of course.

>>>Now do you understand where I'm coming from?

"boardered"

>>>That should be "bordered" btw.


Not A Poet
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27 posted 2006-09-20 09:07 AM


Just to clear things up Moonbeam, I do handle about 100 emails per day but not from PIP I do have another life on the ourside.

As for removing this thread, please see Grinch's comment a few responses above. That is also how I view the whole thing.

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28 posted 2006-09-20 09:30 AM


Pete

I had assumed that.

Anyway, 100 e-mails from PIP would ensure a very short life-span I would think!

Though I see what Grinch said and respect his opinion I still feel that the post was aimed specifically at me.  It wasn't a generic "they" but a specific "he" that was used.

Anyway whether it was or it wasn't, posts like that IMO should not be allowed to stay on a forum that is supposedly devoted to Critical Analysis and neither should all this nonsense which has followed.

How do you think you'll ever get decent poets and critics to take this place seriously if you allow "poems" like that to stand?  

Sorry to say it Pete but an attitude like that to editing is CERTAINLY a large part of the reason Warmhrt ended up posting her poem complaining about the state of the forum.

Perhaps someone should simply ask UseTheIIIusion who this was aimed at, and if he/she confirms it was me, then presumably you'd have no problem with removing it even by your own (and Grinch's) measure.

M

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29 posted 2006-09-20 09:32 AM


Hey there UseTheIIIusion

Was this poem aimed at me?

Or someone else?

Or was it just a rant against all critics generally where you forgot to use "they" instead of "he"?

Moonbeam

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30 posted 2006-09-20 12:07 PM


Don't you think UsetheIllusion was a bit offended by someone too, Moonbeam?

I think you both exchanged offensive gifts.  And neither of them were especially "appropriate", although after all, we may hopefully learn something from them.

Poetry is taken personally by people, and therefore is something personal, even by people that take it critically.  I admit that I take my poetry somewhat personally.  And this poem suggests UsetheIllusion takes poetry personally as well. If we don't keep that in mind when critiquing and write too harshly, then we are offending someone personally, by the insolance of ignoring that fact.  We need to be more careful about the writer's sensitivies, especially if we never spoke to that person before and don't know anything about his/her experiences.   Whether a critic likes it it or not, Poetry is taken personally; sometimes very personally.

On the other hand, even though someone may take his/her poetry very personally, I don't think it is ever right to make the critic himself the target of negative and somewhat insolant criticism as this poem does.  

But this poem is more of a "wake up pinch" than a hostile punch.  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (09-20-2006 12:46 PM).]

moonbeam
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31 posted 2006-09-20 12:52 PM


Ess

If UsetheIll was "offended" by my negative comments directed at his POEM then really he shouldn't be in a poetry workshop.  

He CERTAINLY shouldn't be in a workshop if he takes it a step further and posts any sort of comment, wake up punch, attack, whatever, back at the critiquer.

I am sure UsetheIll is a very nice guy/gal, none of my comments suggested in any way that he/she wasn't.

Look, to be quite honest, I couldn't care less about whether someone I don't know thinks I'm a jerk and pompous etc etc. That's not what is about.  This is all about Warmhrt's post and part of getting this forum into a state where good poets and critters will want to come and contribute.

As I said above to Pete, respected poets won't touch CA until some sort of control is placed upon this sort of behaviour.

You can't have poets in a workshop taking pot-shots at critters in a personal way.  Sure, have a lively debate about the words and the meter etc but never ever call your critter a pompous jerk simply because he tore your precious poetic baby to pieces.

Allow that to happen in a workshop and you have a recipe for a waste of space, or, if you prefer, a place called CA at PIP.

I hope this explains where I'm coming from better.

M

Essorant
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32 posted 2006-09-20 01:58 PM


I don't think UsetheIllusion was offended by negative criticism, but by the lack of showing much respect for the fact that poets take their poetry personally and become offended if they aren't befriended to such a harsh approach as you seem to take to a universal standard.  Usetheillusion obviously is willing to accept criticism, but he/she doesn't seem willing to accept an approach that makes poetry mere mechanics, pretending that it is not personal, or attached to anything personal.  Critical Analysis isn't even in the "Workshop" section here at Passions, let alone alone a "mechanics" section.  That doesn't mean workshoping and poetic "mechanics" don't belong as a very important part, but I think they must belong without trying exclude or pretend there are no personal attachments and sensitivities to poetry and criticism.  No matter how much you pretend there are no personal attachments and sensitivities, there still always are.


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33 posted 2006-09-20 02:08 PM


Is CA a workshop (or something even more rigorous) or not?

Of course there are always sensitivities but you have to leave them behind when you ask someone to tell you the TRUTH about what they really think of your work.

If you don't like the WAY they tell you that truth - thank them, and go find someone else to tell you.

M

[This message has been edited by moonbeam (09-20-2006 05:43 PM).]

Grinch
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34 posted 2006-09-20 03:12 PM



quote:
Perhaps someone should simply ask UseTheIIIusion who this was aimed at, and if he/she confirms it was me, then presumably you'd have no problem with removing it even by your own (and Grinch's) measure.


You could ask but the very fact that you have to seems to prove that the poem isn’t a clear personal attack.


UseTheIllusion
Member
since 2006-02-06
Posts 223
In a state of limbo
35 posted 2006-09-20 03:17 PM


Ok, it's time to clarify.  This was not written to or for you Moonbeam.  This is a jab (or pinch, in the words of Essorant) in the general direction of critics who are, to use the word I used in the poem, "brutal" in their well-intentioned, yet heavy handed approach to critiquing.  The use of the word "he" could easily be replaced by "they", but I feel that would detract from the personal nature of the thing I was aiming to comment on in the writing.  Essorant is absolutly right.  I DO take my poetry seriously, and, sensitive I may be to criticism, it doesn't mean that I eschew the critical process.  It means that I dissaprove of someone saying a piece of writing has no right to be written in the first place.  I will admit that some of the content of the poem borders on a personal attack, but the attack was indiscriminate to begin with.  That is no excuse for having attacked in the first place.  Before I log off, I would like to add one more thing...IMHO, poetry should not just be criticized or praised for the technicalities of its construction, such as meter, rhyme, etc.  but should also be praised or criticized for its CONTENT.  While this may go without saying or be redundant, I believe it is worth keeping this idea in mind when critiquing a poem.  This will foster debate, much like the kind we have seen in this thread, and, I believe, despite all of the misunderstandings involved, such has been accomplished.

As for the poem itself, I am wondering if it is worth it to write it again, perhaps in free verse, or not, due to the passions it has irritated.      

Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
36 posted 2006-09-20 03:43 PM


Moonbeam


"Is CA a workshop (or something even more rigourous) or not?"

I'm not sure if "no" or "yes" would be the right answer.   I think it is a critical poetry forum that is somewhat between and bit more flexible.  It is not just about the workshop aspect, but about being critical about every aspect of poetry and criticism, including a personal and sensitive side of everything we may do here.  

"Of course there are always sensitivities but you have to leave them behind when you ask someone to tell you the TRUTH about what they really think of your work. "

I always have a head but I need to be beheaded to hear the truth?  Doesn't sound like a very fair bargain          

"If you don't like the WAY they tell you that truth - thank them, and go find someone else to tell you."

I think good relationship comes from mutual argreements, and that includes a relationship among critics.  They may become befriended to a special manner of exchanging critique in their poems, but that is thro encountering each other to an extent and a development between them.  For example you and Sid may share a somewhat mutual agreement about critiquing, because you have more similar developments and agreement in poetry and criticism.  But to suggest that same mutual development and agreement is automatically there among every other member in CA is a mistake.  Because it is not.  And that's why I think it is somewhat inappropriate to treat it as if it is.  You need to have a development in one way or another with someone and someone's poetry before you may know that a more specialized or case-hardened approach to critique and poetry is appropriate in communicating with a poet.  If you don't have any background with that poet thro exchanges here in the forum, then you don't have that development and mutual agreement.  And you especially don't have it if you are new and unknown or critquing the work of someone that is new and unknown.

I hope that makes sense.  



cynicsRus
Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591
So Cal So Cool!
37 posted 2006-09-20 04:40 PM


quote:
I always have a head but I need to be beheaded to hear the truth?


That's a really terrible analogy, and loaded at that since the only answer would be 'no,' because no sane person would purposely harm himself physically. Yet Moonbeam’s statement was in relation to emotions. And it was a fair one, given the number of *poets out there with a martyr complex, who think every critic with an unflattering  critique is out to get them.
quote:
If you don't like the WAY they tell you that truth - thank them, and go find someone else to tell you.

This is also a fair point given the number of forums and poetry sites which hand out patronizing fluff by the truck load. One will always be able to find a critique forum tailored towards one's own emotional needs--and/or insecurities.

Sid

*I always use the term loosely!


moonbeam
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38 posted 2006-09-20 04:54 PM


UsetheIII

Thanks for clarifying - I’m so glad that it’s just aimed at heavy handed critics ...

like me, apparently.


“I always have a head but I need to be beheaded to hear the truth?  Doesn't sound like a very fair bargain”

>>> Essorant for heaven’s sake.  It’s not rocket science,  I’m not suggesting you should die for your art!  All I’m saying is that if you ask someone to read and critique your poem then you shouldn’t then turn around and throw a hissy fit when you hear something you don’t like told in a way you don’t like.  

“I think good relationship comes from mutual argreements, and that includes a relationship among critics.  They may become befriended to a special manner of exchanging critique in their poems, but that is thro encountering each other to an extent and a development between them.  For example you and Sid may share a somewhat mutual agreement about critiquing, because you have more similar developments and agreement in poetry and criticism.  But to suggest that same mutual development and agreement is automatically there among every other member in CA is a mistake.  Because it is not.  And that's why I think it is somewhat in appropriate to treat it as if it is.  You need to have a development in one way or another with someone and someone's poetry before you may know that a more specialized or case-hardened approach to critique and poetry is appropriate in communicating with a poet.  If you don't have any background with that poet thro exchanges here in the forum, then you don't have that development and mutual agreement.  And you especially don't have it if the poet is a new member posting in this forum.  

I hope that makes sense.”  

Perfect sense thank you.  

And thank you for explaining so clearly why this board will never operate as a useful forum for poets to grow.  

What you are talking about here, and what has actually happened over the last few years in CA, is the formation of a cozy little clique.  Basically until you are part of the CA club and you “know” everyone then you don’t know how to structure your critique so as not to offend the sensitivities of the poet in question.  Wonderful!  Let me make a note:

[EDIT]
And lest you forget - “Tread on eggshells until you have that development and mutual agreement with your poet and critic brother.”

I have never heard such utter tosh!

No wonder this forum is a stagnating little backwater.  

No wonder Warmhrt complained of the way the poetry on it had ... what was it, “Decomposed”!  

Good word Kris.  Accurate word.

You just don’t get it do you.  This forum is open to the public.  You clearly have no idea at all how difficult it is to have a USEFUL poetry learning facility which is open to everyone.

There are two extremes in online poetry “forums”:

Open anarchy - everyone does and says what they want.  Hopeless.

Retreat into mediocrity - everyone pretends to be chums, no progress in learning.  No real honesty in exchanges.  As has happen here.

In between those there is a place where, governed by strict rules of behaviour, poets can have a lively and even turbulent interaction over poems and critiques.  In that place it doesn’t matter whether you’re a newbie with or without knowledge or an old timer - all abide by the same rules of conduct and central to that is the fact that the critic is doing the poet a massive favour ALWAYS.

I’ve tried to suggest in Kris’s thread two specific additional rules which could help achieve this.  Here is what I said:

...............................

I think I'd go for tightening the critting rules.

First: "New posters to CA MUST do three crits in reasonably grammatically and syntactically correct English before they can post a poem."

Not long crits, not expert crits, but crits that follow a basic template.  This template should be published prominently as a permanent notice thread at the top of CA.  There are plenty of models for "ideal" crits on the Internet; the usual stuff, say what you like or dislike about the poem say why, etc etc.  I can set one out if anyone is interested.

Second: "At the moderators' discretion after the posting of his/her first poem a poster might be asked to choose a good contemporary poem and to post it and then crit it, this would be compulsory before any further posts could be made"

This would have the dual effect starting the newbie reading other poetry and also making him/her really think about how a good poem works.  This could go on indefinitely until the newbie either gets fed up or starts to learn or show a willingness to really think about other people's poems.  

............................

So far nobody seems to be in the remotest bit interested.

Essorant don’t take my word for it that your portrayal of CA doesn’t work, just look at the evidence of past years.  Writers of some quality coming and going and very very mediocre work as a basic “standard”.

It’s very sad to me that a place that could offer so much has come to this.

............................


A final word to Pete.

You encouraged people to look at Kris’s poem, you said you cared about CA.  You can remember what it was like back when Brad, Trevor, Jim et al were participating.

I know you are busy Pete but do you think you might make a substantial contribution to all this and tell me/us what you really think?  

What I mean to say is - is there any prospect at all for change in this little section of Ronsworld, or shall I now vanish into the ether for another five years or so, like a bad dream?

Bonsoir.

M

[This message has been edited by Not A Poet (09-21-2006 10:07 AM).]

Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
39 posted 2006-09-20 04:59 PM


Sid

I think you missed the importance I was trying to show.

Trying to leave one feelings/sensitivities behind--a natural part of life that every being has in one or another way--is the spiritual equivelent to physically trying to leave one's head behind to hear the truth.   Its contradictory in my opinion.  

Just because you are ready for the harshest kind of critique, doesn't mean that everyone else is or even that they should be.  Feelings, just like everything else, need to evolve and develope.  That takes giving accomodation to the evolving and devoloping process, not trying to enforce an automatic "click" into place.  


cynicsRus
Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591
So Cal So Cool!
40 posted 2006-09-20 05:23 PM


quote:
Trying to leave one feelings/sensitivities behind--a natural part of life that every being has in one or another way--is the spiritual equivelent to physically trying to leave one's head behind to hear the truth.   Its contradictory in my opinion.

It may seem contradictory to you but it’s really not a contradiction in terms to leave one's emotions at the door, so to speak. People do so every day--especially those who can’t afford to allow emotions to cloud their judgment or influence their day to day job.

Sid

ChristianSpeaks
Member
since 2006-05-18
Posts 396
Iowa, USA
41 posted 2006-09-20 05:45 PM


Well my aura feels cleansed. I had my fun, but can we get back to critiquing? I'm ready. I have a post that Ess started to work on and I would like to see what people think. It's just a few posts down. Thanks

CS

Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
42 posted 2006-09-21 10:10 AM


Thbis discussion started out as worthwhile (IMO) but is digressing rapidly to the point of useless agrument and mudslinging. Let's get back to the point or move on.

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