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| Critical Analysis #2 |
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Critical Reading |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
What are the most important works of literature a Poet or Critic should have in his study? |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
No contest, I can't think why you have to even ask. TITLE: Monty Python and the Holy Grail ISBN #: 0-7493-1142-8 PUBLISHER: Mandarin Paperbacks, London (1993) |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
How well does that help people become more critical about poetry? |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
It's an impossible question to answer Ess, so I thought I'd indulge in a little lighthearted banter to enliven our little enclave. I can tell you some of the books I have which have helped me - but no way would I claim they are "the most important". For a start my enthusiasm for classical poetry is very low compared to most writers and that makes my selections contemporarily skewed. M |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
What do you mean by "Classical"? Do you mean from Greek or Rome, or most popular, most traditional, etc? If you mean "traditional", wouldn't you consider, classical poetry if not THE most important, A most important part of poetry? I think one of the problems with poetry today is that it is become hypermodernist in approach, locking itself into modern differences, especially Freeverse, that is still for the most part only recent thing. Hypermodernism weakens our connection with the traditions of the past, and sometimes sends a bias against those ancient traditions, deterring people from participating in them. I don't agree with that hypermodernism. To me Poetry needs its classical/tradition parts just as much as a tree needs its roots. Therefore I would dare to call them most important. Without the traditional parts of poetry, poetry can hardly be recognized anymore. It is like trying to take the trunk and branches from a tree and saying the leaves could still be the tree. But they can't. Without the most important and supporting parts, they don't have anything strong to hang and grow upon. [This message has been edited by Essorant (09-18-2006 02:41 PM).] |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
I agree that the roots of poetry are important in the same way that the roots of all things are important - use trees as your metaphor and you'll take my meaning. Whether they are MOST important to contemporary writing is debatable and I suppose depends to some extend on what type of poetry you are interested in writing. Stephen Fry for instance would certainly agree with you as his interest lies 99% with form and metrical poetry. On the other hand many other contemporary writers, myself included, would probably say that although it is certainly helpful to have a good knowledge of traditions (i.e. on the basis that you can't break rules till you know what they are), it is not necessarily THE most important part of a modern day poet's armoury of skills and knowledge. M |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I will revise my question: What do you think very important works of literature a Poet or Critic should have in his study? I was hoping people may recommend what they think very helpful to learn poetry better and approach it more critically; that is recommend specific titles. Literature about traditions, forms, rhythm and meter, or about poetry in general, and specific examples or collections of poetry that you may think more important to focus on for learning. I hope that makes better sense  |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Here is one I will recommend: An Essay on Criticism by Alexander Pope |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Be Metercræfte A good introduction to rhythm and meter may be found in Poetic Rhythm by Derek Attridge. It deals with these from the point of view of the things we already know about the English language but don't think about very conciously. After acknowledging and becoming more concious of the basics thing about rhythm of the language, it is seen how that rhythm is heightened and sent into Poetic rhythms and meters. I recommend this for anyone looking for a concise and clear explanation. |
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kif kif Member
since 2006-06-01
Posts 439BCN |
'The Critic As An Artist'; Oscar Wilde To be found in the fantastic 'Literature In The Modern World'; Critical Essays and Documents (edited by Dennis Walder) 2nd Edition; Oxford. Everything from T.S.Elliot's 'What Is A Classic' to Teodore Adorno's 'Commitment' can be found in this book, and although I'm completely uneductated to any 'standard', with a little research on my part, the essays are understandable, and very exciting in a wordy way. As for poems...I have a few anthologies...but my favourite poet is Linton Kwesi Johnson, who's a reggae poet, it's work like his that inspires me the most. I know very little about the application of dactyls, ect, but a lot about brown-noise and application of rhythm. Combined with the classic ideas about communication as seen in the book above, it's a heady combination. [This message has been edited by kif kif (09-20-2006 04:12 AM).] |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
For both the beginner and the more experienced alike: Mary Oliver -- A Handbook for Writing and Reading Metrical Verse Steve Kowit--In the Palm of Your Hand: The Poet's Portable Workshop Ted Kooser -- The Poetry Home Repair Manual: Practical Advice for Beginning Poets Mary Oliver--A Poetry Handbook Kim Adonnizio and Dorianne Laux--The Poet's Companion: A Guide to the Pleasures of Writing Poetry Robert Pinsky--The Sounds of Poetry Laurence Perrine--Sound and Sense Mary Kinzie – A Poet's Guide to Poetry The New Bread Loaf Anthology of Contemporary American Poetry, ed. by Michael Collier and Stanley Plumly, New British Poetry edited by Don Paterson and Charles Simic, Poetry 180 A Turning Back to Poetry: An Anthology of Contemporary Poems edited by Billy Collins 180 More: Extraordinary Poems for Every Day edited by Billy Collins The Vintage Book of Contemporary World Poetry edited by J. D. McClatchy. While not many of the text books are slanted towards criticism of poetry as such, they do contain an approach to poetry which, combined with some very basic, almost commonsense advice (to be found on the net), makes it almost inevitable that a person who reads these books will be a close reader of poetry and most likely a competent critic. M |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Bumping up the thread for those like me who missed it. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
I'll add: Staying Alive: Real Poems for Unreal Times by Neil Astley Being Alive: The Sequel to "Staying Alive" by Neil Astley |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Be Grammaticcræfte It is important to learn the earlier spellings and word-endings that were used in English in order to be able to read and understand the poesy of all ages of the English language. Here are a few of the best grammars you may read: Old English The Elements of Old English, by Samuel Moore An Old English Grammar, by Quirk & Wrenn First Steps in Old English, by Stephen Pollington Middle English A Book of Middle English, by Burrow & Turville-Petre Other From Old English to Standard English, by Dennis Freeborn Historical Outlines of English Sounds and Inflections, by Samuel Moore (The title of the on-line edition is a bit different. It is probably a much earlier edition.) |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: Why? |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
...in order to be able to read and understand the poesy of all ages of the English language. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
I didn't ask: "Why is it important to learn the earlier spellings and word-endings that were used in English?" I asked: "Why is it important to learn the earlier spellings and word-endings that were used in English in order to be able to read and understand the poesy of all ages of the English language?" |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
The same answer. The importance is to be able to read and understand the great works of earlier ages instead of just bowing to newfangleness and what is "modern". The rest may only be learned through experiencing and appreciating it in the first place, not truly by some attempt of an explanation that I may give here. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Ok Ess, I am totally confused now. At school I was subjected to, amongst others (whom I have not had to exert effort to forget) Chaucer. Are you saying that I have to "learn the earlier spellings and word-endings" and "read and understand" Chaucer in order to be able to "read and understand" (whatever you may mean by "understand"?) this: Wild Geese by Mary Oliver You do not have to be good. You do not have to walk on your knees for a hundred miles through the desert repenting. You only have to let the soft animal of your body love what it loves. Tell me about despair, yours, and I will tell you mine. Meanwhile the world goes on. Meanwhile the sun and the clear pebbles of the rain are moving across the landscapes, over the prairies and the deep trees, the mountains and the rivers. Meanwhile the wild geese, high in the clean blue air, are heading home again. Whoever you are, no matter how lonely, the world offers itself to your imagination, calls to you like the wild geese, harsh and exciting — over and over announcing your place in the family of things. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
No, I meant by learning Premodern English you get the keys to be able to read and unlock the meaning of Premodern English poetry too, just as you already have the keys to do so with a modern poem such as that. Once you have two more keys, Old English and Middle English, then you have the keys to the whole house so to speak. You may read and understand Beowulf, Chaucer, Shakespeare, as well as a very modern poem such as that. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Ahh misunderstanding. When you said: "It is important to learn the earlier spellings and word-endings that were used in English in order to be able to read and understand the poesy of all ages of the English language" you meant: It is important to learn the earlier spellings and word-endings that were used in English in order to be able to read and understand the poesy of those earlier ages. Yes, I obviously see that. I suppose what I was getting at is the suggestion that was in fact once made to me by my erstwhile learned friend from Uni to the effect that we can only truly appreciate contemporary poetry if we have a knowledge of ancient texts. I struggle with that notion. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I would agree with him in respect to Traditional poetry that participates in long traditions of the past. Studying how those traditions had success in the past certainly helps one cultivate and have success with it in the present. Traditional Poetry cultivates and builds upon what we inherit from the past, but freeverse more or less detaches itself and does not have much connection with it at all. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Yes I see that Ess. Thanks. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Good discussion, don't quite understand it all but it's interesting to think about. And thanks for posting the Oliver, MB. Isn't she just the best! |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Ahhh oui JM. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
I enjoy much of what Essorant does while not entirely going along with his point of view as to what's necessary for a poet to have. Essorant seems to have a scholar's taste in language and linguistics, and feels this is necessary for a poet. I believe that—in pragmatic terms at least—a poet needs to know who his contemporaries are and what and how they're writing. That's bare bones. Without that information, you have no idea of your community, the community of fellow writers and the community of audience members. Without that information you may well be using language when language is dispensable. You're writing notes to yourself. In order to write for an audience, you need to speak "audience," the language. You need to know those books, at a minimum, which will teach you that tongue. Bare bones doesn't require much more than present tense. A lot of poets seem to do well, have an audience, get published, by knowing pretty much the current group of folks. There was a very long time when many or most of the current Greek texts were lost. We can feel what a hole that would leave in the literature from our current perspective. At the same time I don't know that they actually stopped writing because of lost philosophical or poetic works during the periods when the Irish scholar/monks were keeping some sense of history afloat minus most of the Greek anthology. They simply didn't know what they were missing, as we don't when it comes to mourning our own textual losses from the burning of the library at Alexandria. We don't know what texts we're missing from the Babylonian Empire or what they had to keep Gilgamesh company on those balmy middle-eastern nights. He and Enkindu are great to have around, mind you, and they're clearly lonely, so I'm not suggesting we stop looking. I'm saying that in order to produce lively and vital current writing, they aren't needed. What is needed is a group of poets who, again, at a minimum, are reading their contemporaries. More is highly desirable. Less and literature fails to happen. There is no audience for it. Questions beyond that have to do with, How does a poet make his work richer and more interesting? History and literature are important there. There are things you want to add. The things Essorant campaigns for should be on the list, all of them. I think of them as electives, though, since they are useless without a contemporary community. I'd want a couple of dictionaries on my desk. I've come to enjoy what different books they actually are. They say different things when you wouldn't expect them to. I was lucky to get an OED in the microscopic typeface, so that I need to turn on arc lamps and get out the electron microscope to read it, but it was $30.00 very well spent. I've got a Webster's Collegiate so old that it had a hip flask and a raccoon coat that came with it. I stumbled across an absolutely (financially) valueless four volume edition of Johnson's Dictionary that I love, and I use them all. I have others as well, and I use them too. They're all good for different things. But I write poetry that way, and other folks may not. An on-line dictionary or a single old dictionary may be useful for them. I've gone through periods where I've used a thesaurus (It's like a Brontosaurus, except it's less like me and more like Thee). I will again. But I find that I don't use it as a vocabulary expander the way Miss Arnold told me it was supposed to be used. Instead, when I find a place in a poem where I've gotten lost or bogged down, I'll sometimes find a key word or two, figure out its antonym, and look up synonyms for those. If I find interesting words in that list, I'll even look up synonyms for those too. If I get a cluster of three four five or more grouped around a certain kind of exciting feeling in my gut, I'll try following the associations on some of those to get a new turn for the poem. I've had it work a few times. It's generally fun. Louis Turco's book, THE BOOK OF FORMS, is always nice to have available not too far away. I don't use it so much any more to help me figure out forms, but browsing will often give me ideas or get me excited. I also like old travel books, old psychology texts, old theology and old history books because of the distortions and lies and stories you can find in them. Old Natural history, anthropology. I try to get into old bookstores when I can, not to look for the most valued books, but to look for some of the most oddball books. I confess, it's a good match in general. There are other basic writing books I've mentioned to people here and there. I try adding something another time to fill in a few of those. I hope there's something folks find useful here. Don't want to be a bore. Bob K. |
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