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Decomposition
| Critical Analysis #2 |
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Decomposition |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563
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once a shelter for rhapsody, for enlightenment, this space feels strange, awkward. intregal components have vanished, leaving holes filled with dead air, where echoes bounce off broken walls, where strong voices fade away. so disheartening... so many of the lyrical were drawn here, where words lived, were scrutinized, clarified, authentic emotion communicated with practiced artistry, brush strokes of imagery. traditions of language shored this stucture, now straining against sophomoric propencities, unexacting and apathetic, the walls are crumbling, and no one gives a damn. "It is wisdom to know others; |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Thanks Kris. I and a few others do "give a damn."  Pete |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Thanks Pete...so do I. Something's got to be done. Kris "It is wisdom to know others; |
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kif kif Member
since 2006-06-01
Posts 439BCN |
My hero, Linton Kwesi Johnson was on Radio 1 talking about the same thing. He lamented that many people thought and called themselves poets, without ever having read or talked any poetry. Now Linton is a champion of Jamaican Patois, and much of his work has been put to music, but that doesn't prevent him from reading The Classics,eg; Rossetti, Pinter...it compels him to read more! You can be ultra-contemporary, but only after an understanding of word history will your writing be poetry. Without that understanding, it's like picking something off the street, and using it, without knowing where it's been! |
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artexeres Member
since 2006-08-01
Posts 156south africa |
well written, beutifill use of words, sad yet a feeling of truth. |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
kif kif, I am so glad that you chose to read this, understood it, and commented on it. I wish everyone who posts here would do so also. Thank you, Kris artexerex, Some of what I've tried to say in the poem is evident in your reply. I'm a stickler on spelling, which every poet or writer should be. Use spell-check if you're not a good speller. Also, your reply was the same as one would get in Open Poetry, and does not belong here. Comments on structure, meaning, wording...anything else that has to do with the writing of poetry is what CA is all about. We are here to learn to write better poetry, and that is why we encourage constructive commentary. Kris "It is wisdom to know others; |
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kif kif Member
since 2006-06-01
Posts 439BCN |
Yes, replies are only useful if they contain a 'why', you liked, or disliked the poem in question. A reply like "great work" stumps the author, and stops a close-reading. Even if someone is unfamiliar with poetic tools, it's still valid to say something like "I liked the rhythm, as it is slow, pondering, and suits the content." You don't have to be a poet laureate to give constructive critisism. Another point worth mentioning is *hurt feelings. Critical Analysis doesn't always throw up positives in a work. If someone's written an abstract "I love you...I miss you" diary entry, then they shouldn't be so upset when after posting in critical, someone tells them it's not up to the standard. If you're in Critical, then it should go without saying that you're posting to improve, and growing pains are a natural part of improvement. Poetry is an art form, the onus being on form. Even abstract graffiti artists have application rules. *The truth is, we're forgetting the first principle, that everything in life just fights for survival. The fronds of killer vines protect, guard small life forms, so delicate, but yet, important to the whole. When these small life forms of poetic skill are concreted over with the culture of trashy novels, beauty mags and pop music, it's relief to see natural buds forcing through...and once they're through, they'll take over! |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
kif kif, I'm so glad that you mentioned the *hurt feelings. I remember when I first began to post here that my feelings were hurt more than once. I took the advice as best I could, applied it, and continued writing. Some replies may be more harsh than others, as everyone has a different way of saying things, but no unkindness is intended. All constructive replies are meant to be helpful, in whatever way they may be worded. I learned very much here in CA, and if everyone tried to reply in a constructive manner, we all would continue to learn. Thank you for a very insightful reply, Kris "It is wisdom to know others; |
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artexeres Member
since 2006-08-01
Posts 156south africa |
Thank you for explaining, i appolagise, yet i do not feel qualified enough in the use of english to critisise constructively, that does not mean that i will not try and become more usefill and of help once agasin thanks and i really enjoyed your expression of words. |
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kif kif Member
since 2006-06-01
Posts 439BCN |
arte-I'm not qualified either, it's just things I don't know, like spelling, I'll research before using. That should be a pre-requisite to all aspects of writing...research! The fact that there's some here that have English as their second language is brilliant-I can barely write a postcard in Spanish! Kris, yes, people express themselves differently, but there's really no good way to say something's awful, apart from beginning with the good, or ok points. Remembering as well, that even the published poets can only offer their opinion, that's the beauty of art, nothing's set in stone, except sculpture (and fossils). I think your poem, and this forum, is good for pointing people in a creative direction by describing what's important in poetry, and why. Poetry is like a microcosm of a fetishists World; by concentrating on the detail, a whole other vista opens up, revealing the whole. The thing is, I've visited the poetry workshop here, and it's quite advanced. Where would the beginner begin? (by researching!) Books like "In The Palm Of Your Hand" by Steve Kowit are brilliant, because they start at the beginning. An online workshop means that the beginner, like me, has to dive right in at the deep end. Although, if the exersises seem too advanced, perhaps I shouldn't be posting in critical? I'm arguing with myself, now...note to self, enough, already! |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Arte, don't worry. Even though your English skills may not be what you would like, your writing is certainly understandable. Go ahead and give us your "best effort" at critique. The CA forum is not only about learning to write poetry. One can learn a great deal about critique also. By practicing and reading here you skills at all three endeavors will likely improve. As Kif said, a spell checker can certainly help with your spelling. English is a truly crappy language for spelling. I very much sympathize with anyone from another language trying to learn its spelling quirks. It is hard but not impossible. Pete |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
kif kif and Pete, I thank you both for encouraging art to keep trying, and for adding so much to this thread. I would like to suggest that any beginning writer, even of poetry, should read "The Elements of Style" by William Shrunk Jr. and E.B. White. It is little more than a hundred pages, but is excellent in teaching the basics of writing. It would also be of great help those who use our complicated and confusing English as a second language. kif, Anyone who wants an honest critique of his/her poetry should post here, though they should be prepared to recieve some critical comments that are meant to help. You certainly appear to be very well-read, perceptive individual who would be welcome in any poetry forum, especially here in CA. I would like to bring up another point. In fairness, everyone who posts here, no matter how inexperienced or seasoned, should critique at least two or three other poems if they expect their posts to recieve constructive commentary. In doing so, everyone will learn more about poetry. Thanks, Kris "It is wisdom to know others; It is enlightenment to know one's self" - Lao Tzu |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Thanks for the reminders Kris. It is just human nature to respond to those who have responded to us. Commenting on others writing not only will help the entire forum but will also garner more comments on your own. I can't stress enough how valuable "The Elements of Style" is as a writer's aid. The entire book is on the web somplace but everyone should have a personal copy. It can be found in almost any book store or Amazon.com for $10 or less. You should reread the entire book periodically for it has a wealth of useful information. From it, I finally learned how to overcome the ongoing hurdle of knowing when to use effect and affect as well as when to use that or which in descriptive phrases, problems that I had struggled with forever. |
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Beau de L'air Member
since 2006-08-03
Posts 105Middlesex, England |
May as well jump in, everybody else seems to be...! Let's say the poem is elegiac and wistful; possibly about an old school building. You know that almost every school is hugely "haunted"; when I left my last place I stared over an empty quad and literally heard snatches of voice from past students! I almost jumped out of my skin! This poem is in "critical analysis?" OK..... Line 1: Once a shelter for rhapsody & light "Integral components" is prose, and ugly. "Now straining against sophomoric propenSities" doesn't scan.... Nice poem, but old school buildings are much scarier or rather more emotionally charged than this appears to me but I may not be responding properly! When you have verses the number of lines given to each verse is information. Not a random thing. That's it.... x B de L'. |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Beau, Thanks for reading, and for your feedback. Perhaps the poem will make a bit more sense when I tell you it is about "Critical Analysis", and what has happened to it recently. That is the reason it is posted here. Thanks again, Kris "It is wisdom to know others; |
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Beau de L'air Member
since 2006-08-03
Posts 105Middlesex, England |
What happened? |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
It's all in the poem, and in the replies. Please read the entire thread. Thanks, Kris "It is wisdom to know others; |
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Beau de L'air Member
since 2006-08-03
Posts 105Middlesex, England |
What and where is a thread? Is there a button for it somewhere? |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Sorry...a thread is the poem and all the replies to it. I should have clarified that. Kris "It is wisdom to know others; |
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playing.with.crayons Member
since 2006-01-02
Posts 362Neverland |
You know I noticed before I joined, and was kind of ghostreading for a year or so, that I was always drawn to the CA forum because of the writers like jbouder, netsky, Essorant, hush, Spitfire, Brad and of course Warmhrt and Not a Poet. Not to say other members aren't worth the read but its a very different forum nowadays. It seems from the beginning of the year its been a hotspot for first posts. Maybe new members should consider hanging about in other forums until they've developed an understanding of the different forums, forms of poetry and what CA is all about and whether they're in the right place. cheye [This message has been edited by playing.with.crayons (09-02-2006 07:31 AM).] |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
I’m confused, are you lamenting the standard of poems or the standard of replies or both? |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
cheye, Yes, I think you have exactly the right formula for new posters. Thank you so much for contributing to this thread. Grinch, I know if you read the entire thread, you will understand what Pete and I were trying to say. kif kif added good comments, and I feel cheye's comment summed it up. Thanks for reading, Kris "It is wisdom to know others; |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
I read the entire thread – I just wanted to be sure before I put my overly large foot in it. If you’re lamenting the replies I understand what you’re saying but isn’t that simply the nature of this forum – it waxes and wanes with people drifting in and out. Some people post simple replies some post in-depth replies both of which are fine, granted one may be more useful but that isn’t guaranteed. If you’re lamenting the standard of poetry I think you’re missing a couple of points, the first is that CA was created to help poets at all levels to improve not to showcase the output of a supposed poetic elite. The second is that we all have to start somewhere and I can’t think of a better place than this forum where people can get advice on how to improve; I think you should be encouraging people to post both replies and poems in this forum of any standard – given the quantity the quality will follow. BTW I liked your poem. |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Grinch, As I wrote in reply 11 above:"Anyone who wants an honest critique of his/her poetry should post here, though they should be prepared to receive some critical comments that are meant to help." I began posting here (a long time ago) as a novice, and learned very much. I never said anything about the "elite", and I don't think there are any of those here. We all want honest critiques that will help us write better poetry. Glad you liked the poem, but try to tell me why you did. Hope that answered some of your questions, Kris "It is wisdom to know others; It is enlightenment to know one's self" - Lao Tzu |
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Skippyrick Member
since 2006-05-16
Posts 150Rohnert Park |
OK so what are we talking about here? What to post and how to comment on what is posted. That depends on the one posting and commenting. We are all different and that is a good thing. We all do some things well and others not so good. Myself well I don't always spell well in my comments but when I post a poem I try to have it right. It helps when others notice a word that does not seem right. Such as "loose my heart" did I mean "lose"? Or "to let loose"? Such comments help me understand how my work is being interrpeted. I only comment on poems that move me or I find have some eliament in them I find fasanting. If I see that there may be a way to make the poem more powerfull I make that segestion. Last I post here becouse I want to here what other think about my poetry. Each comment is worth the read. Weather I change the poem are not. Rick |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
You have to be kidding. Why should you expect anything different on a site where the main page opens with the statement: "Poetry has magic, especially when it comes from the heart". It's hard to find poetry learning forums on the net that aren't either academically too challenging for ordinary mortals like myself, or else anarchically vicious. I have been lurking around this Critical Analysis forum for a good many months now and at first I thought it seemed like it had possibilities for serious debate and mutual learning. Not any more! This Passions in Poetry site is dominated by the social support it offers. The poetry, if you can call it that, is not the point of the site - the point of the site is the friendship and pleasant human contacts it engenders. Learning about poetry comes wayyyy down the list of priorities for the vast majority of the participants. All too often a poster to the main boards gets an urge to see what the "experts" think of his/her stuff, so in CA you get many annoying one off "vanity posts" with no material follow up and a load of work and disappointment for those regulars who try to give constructive criticism. The moderators in CA try to a good job encouraging discussion and debate and making suggestions for improvement, but they are fighting a losing battle against the conflict between the very ethos of PIP and the concept of trying to critically analyse a poem. The fault isn't with the idea of a critical analysis forum as such or the moderators themselves, but with the idea that you can operate such a forum in an honest way within the PIP umbrella. The dishonesty in this is exhibited in the result that means that well meaning and knowledgeable people try their best to make CA what it should be and instead merely end up by presenting it as something other than what it is - a glorified chat room or vanity board. The notion that poetry comes from the heart is frankly utter rubbish. As all successful poets will acknowledge, poetry is a craft that requires a practitioner to work hard to be proficient. The suggestion that you can somehow write powerful poems simply by letting your innermost soulful heartfelt feelings pour onto the page is very very wrong and for that matter damaging for young aspiring poets to be told. Perhaps the author of the above quote didn't mean that over sentimentalised piece of nonsense to suggest what it does suggest. Perhaps he/she was merely indicating that in the context of an already proficient writer work that is "heartfelt", in the sense that it touches on first hand experiences, is often the best. That is perhaps a debatable argument, but be that as it may, a structure where CA moderators are expected to run an honest and useful forum inside the parameters of a family orientated gossipy social club is a structure which is gonna collapse. Solution: give the moderators autonomy to run the forum independently of some (not all) of the restrictions on the main site. Give them the power to eradicate time-wasters, trolls and self seeking vanity posters, and maybe, just maybe, you might make something worthwhile. As it is, even the regulars such as yourself are "decomposing". "A stickler for spelling" eh? Humm. Check out the two glaring spelling errors in even this piece. Regards. Moonbeam |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
And another thing. It occurs to me that some people might point at the Philosophy forum run by the excellent and estimable Brad. This seems to exist happily within PIP while managing to produce some very worthwhile and intelligent debate. So why can't CA? What's the difference. A minor difference, albeit arguable, is that Brad seems to be given a certain degree of latitude as to the monitoring of the tone and content of replies. By far the most important reason is however that most "one-post" or "fluff" poets have no interest in philosophy and quite frankly if they entered the forum it's unlikely they'd be able to comprehend the discussions let alone participate. So much easier to write a poem from the heart (as encouraged by the PIP portal) and then slap it into CA to have it confirmed that you're the next Whitman; wouldn't you say? M |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
M, Down, girl, down...your fangs are showing! Quite a rant you had going there...can't imagine what got you so riled. That was JYO, of course. In regards to my spelling errors...thanks for pointing them out. Don't know how they slipped by me, but, then, I'm not perfect, and no one is. The only suggestion I have to you is to make rational constuctive comments on how to improve CA, and, if you do not like the forum, then continue to post in the dicussion forums. Thanks for reading, Kris "It is wisdom to know others; It is enlightenment to know one's self" - Lao Tzu |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Yep it sure was a bit of a rant. What gets me riled is seeing wasted effort, I'll try and calm down. And yeah it IS my opinion but it's right. Heh. I am perfect btw, my b/f says so. I already proposed a rational solution I thought: "Solution: give the moderators autonomy to run the forum independently of some (not all) of the restrictions on the main site. Give them the power to eradicate time-wasters, trolls and self seeking vanity posters, and maybe, just maybe, you might make something worthwhile." What's irrational about that? After all, if poetry comes from the heart why the heck are we bothering to trying and learn the craft - just let it all pour out girl. Geez! We'll be talking about flow next. Moonbeam |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
M, Can you imagine a school without a set of rules and expectations for teachers? In my experience, a group of any kind needs a set of ground rules. Facilitators need to let the group know what to expect from them, and also set rules for themselves. Usually, ground rules are also made for facilitators, if they are a part of a larger group. Without any of these, the result is chaos. Brad and Severn are also listed as moderators for CA, but I haven't seen them around for a very long time. It must be a difficult job for Pete, who's specialty is structured verse, to run CA alone, when most of the postings are free verse. I feel this is an issue best addressed by Ron. Kris "It is wisdom to know others; |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Warmhrt You have a strong and faithful standing in CA, and get along well with everyone. Would you like to be a Moderator in CA, if Ron agreed to it? If you would be up to it, you would certainly have my vote. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
You’re missing my point entirely. I agree totally about the need for rules, doubly so in a forum that purports to be a workshop for analysis of poetry but is open to anybody at all. In fact I’m advocating MORE rules not fewer. The credibility of a forum that purports to be a workshop for learning relies on keeping discussions and debates on the matter in hand and not allowing too much extraneous clutter. You use the simile of a school. Well, can you imagine a good teacher allowing a class to have one ear on the math lesson while the other was chatting on a mobile phone to friends? That’s what often happens in CA. You want specifics? The way a poster from the Open forum posts a poem in CA and then all his/her friends follow them in with such marvellous critical gems as: “Oh myyy that is just sooo lovely!” You might say simply ignore it. That misses the point too. Ultimately whether or not a forum can succeed as a workshop depends on the direction the critical mass of postings is taking. Serious workshoppers will soon run disillusioned from a place where fluff comments and inane poems are the norm rather than the exception. I could give many other examples, but the point is that moderators should be given the power and discretion to remove posts and poems that are inappropriate and then they should exercise that power pretty ruthlessly. Does such an approach sit badly with the “kindness” ethos of the main site? I don’t think so. In much the same way as I think it is wrong to tell young poets that poems come “from the heart” or that they should simply “let their feelings flow”, I think it is an unkindness to build up someone’s hopes about their work with platitudes and false praise. The fact is that if a person is serious about writing they will weather most critical storms in their determination to get better, and then go on to learn that sometimes hard, or even harsh, criticism is not by any means necessarily destructive. Regrettably many of the posters to this forum at present have not the slightest intention of putting in the hard work necessary to learn how to write. They merely seek the gratification of instant praise, and then they’ll be away, giving nothing, and leaving their worthless rubbish on the board as a big signpost to future posters saying: “ALL CRAP AND FLUFFY BUNNIES WELCOME HERE (self seeking diary entries especially encouraged”. You talk about logicality Kris. Nothing is more illogical than your surprise and disappointment expressed in your poem that this forum has “decomposed” as you put it. If you bother to stop and think about it for 5 minutes you’ll see that degeneration is, in the present context, a given which follows a perfect logical chain of causation right through from the sentiments expressed in the opening credits of the main site to the moment by moment decisions that Pete has to make when he tries to moderate. Sorry if this seems like another rant. Moonbeam |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
To Essorant, I appreciate your vote of confidence, but I would wish that, at this time, you do not make such a request to Ron. There are many others who would be much more qualified. I thank you kindly. M, In the often cruel mind games of competition and control, I am a gracious loser. For to be a member of humankind, one must possess and excercise kindness; anything less and one is rendered inconsequential. I sincerely hope that other moderators and Ron get in on this discussion, as some of the points you make are valid, and the reason I wrote the poem in the first place. I try, however, not to be quite so brutally frank as you seem to be. That is one reason why I feel I would not be an effective moderator in this type of setting. As I say in the short poem, posted before this comment, I truly feel kindness is one of the most important of virtues. I am not saying that CA needs a moderator with no empathy for others, and do not feel that posts should just be taken off the board if they are "fluff", as you put it. Everyone has to start somewhere. I do feel that every new post should be given a welcome, and a reasonable, but very honest critique. Perhaps then, only those who genuinely want to improve their poetic skills will continue to post. This is the last reply I will make on this thread, and sincerely hope the discussion continues with others who can change the situation here. Kris "It is wisdom to know others; It is enlightenment to know one's self" - Lao Tzu [This message has been edited by warmhrt (09-14-2006 11:57 AM).] |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Thanks for your gracious response. We are not too far apart I think except perhaps on small technicalities. Kind regards. Moonbeam. |
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Marge Tindal
since 1999-11-06
Posts 42384Florida's Foreverly Shores |
To quote our gracious site benefactor, Ron Carnell - quote: |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
"Put more succinctly, there is nothing that doesn't have a place in CA if posting it can help someone learn to do better." That is a really great sentiment with which I agree totally PROVIDED the corollary is also applied: "Anything that doesn't help someone learn to do better doesn't have a place in CA" Then start arbitrating, because "That is soooo beautiful dahhhhlin" appended as a "crit" to a piece that has obvious flaws - not only IMHO is not gonna help someone do better, it's gonna positively harm their chances of doing so. M |
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ChristianSpeaks Member
since 2006-05-18
Posts 396Iowa, USA |
M- You do not get to decide what helps people learn. When you figure that out - you will see your stock rise on this board. CS |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Warmhrt, I don't think anyone else is qualified the same way you are Warmhrt. I hope you and others may consider it further. M, That is why we have the right to criticize critiques as well as poems. Criticizing what is put forth as criticism is an important part of critiquing as well. We had many strong discussions about it in the past. If someone critiques in a way that doesn't seem right or at all helpful, then speak out if you are willing. That stimulates helpful discussions on this board; deleting and eradicating doesn't. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: I prefer the original version posted by Ron, using your definition any advice or critique that was incorrect wouldn’t have a place in CA either. In effect you’d need a moderator of usefulness who would judge the worth of each post and remove any that didn’t help someone learn to do better. That would be a neat trick if you could do it but how would you know the moderator of usefulness was making the right decision? Parsimony suggests that the simplest solution would tend to be the best – I believe the person the post is directed towards should judge usefulness, if they decide it’s useful they’ll listen if not they can simply ignore it. quote: I think you may be overlooking one of the best tools used during learning – simple encouragement. While I agree that the addition of advice or critical opinion is also a prerequisite there’s no reason I can think of why individual responses cannot be either one or the other as long as both are given. |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
quote: CS What a load of horse fluff! Critiquing is all about making decisions; determining what makes someone’s post work or not. And it really takes no special qualifications to recognize what makes a good poem work or not. Often it’s quite obvious. A basic understanding of rhyme and metrics however, surely puts one on a higher level of understanding in judging whether that poem is working or not-as does reading up on all the great works of past poets, mainly the dead ones. quote: All too often, the “rise, in [one’s] stock” on these and similar forums is determined by the quantity of posts. Seldom is any emphasis placed on quality. If you are asking us to pay homage to someone simply because they have thirty thousand posts and a few gold stars by their name, my response is to compare their level of growth since they first started posting. There isn't always much of a difference. There was indeed a time when it seemed that this forum’s main purpose was to offer honest critique. So the title to Kris’s post and the inference therein is indeed apropos, albeit obviously a bit too nebulous for many for whom it was intended. I would submit that she could have added more clarity by simply stating the obvious: Decomposition always leaves a stench! That’s exactly the type of poetry that has been taking over this forum. Some will always wonder why there seem to be fewer and fewer quality critiques, but to me the answer is quite clear: The better critics consider it a waste of time giving a line by line critique to a hopelessly prosaic rant or pubescent soliloquy. And a little honesty would go a long way in cleaning up this place: Why should any critic be required to respect such “outpourings of feelings,” simply because they’re written with line breaks? Why should there be no requirement for members to first post on the open forums, as has been suggested--where respect for another’s sensitive nature is a requisite to any “critiques” offered and s/he can be assured of that ego boost so necessary for the beginning “poet”! When the requirement on CA or any such critique forum is to comment on such tripe before posting, many will simply move on. Sid If you must carp: Carpe diem! ICSoria My Poetry Forum |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
M- You do not get to decide what helps people learn. When you figure that out - you will see your stock rise on this board. CS >>>I KNOW what helps people learn. Whether anyone on this board takes any notice of me is entirely up to them obviously. You seem to be suggesting that I should compromise what I believe to be the truth about learning simply in order to curry favour on this board! Humm. M, That is why we have the right to criticize critiques as well as poems. Criticizing what is put forth as criticism is an important part of critiquing as well. We had many strong discussions about it in the past. If someone critiques in a way that doesn't seem right or at all helpful, then speak out if you are willing. That stimulates helpful discussions on this board; deleting and eradicating doesn't. >>> Yes I know. One of the better things about this board IMO is that comments on the crits ARE allowed - discussion IS encouraged. I don't propose that that should be changed, simply that obvious abusers of that privilege should be "discouraged" from posting. See below for more on this. quote:"Anything that doesn't help someone learn to do better doesn't have a place in CA" I prefer the original version posted by Ron, using your definition any advice or critique that was incorrect wouldn't have a place in CA either. >>>No Grinch - mine and Ron's aren't mutually exclusive. They work together - simply the flipside of each other. You are all interpreting my comments as a broad ranging attack on CA. They are not. I am narrowly focussed on blatant abusers of the public workshop ethic, viz, that participants WANT to learn and should TRY their best to work to do so. I have absolutely no axe to grind with genuine newbies who post "inaccurate" comments as part of a learning process. We all did it when we started out, and in fact there is no conflict with Ron's version because in the act of gently correcting such inaccuracies everyone learns. >>>No, this started out as a response to Wrmhrt complaining about the standards of writing on the board, and I am simply saying that by not maintaining a stricter control over the very obvious liberties that some people take you actually ENCOURAGE standards to fall overall - it kind of seems like no-one cares, and then why would talented critters or poets want to participate? Vicious circle. In effect you'd need a moderator of usefulness who would judge the worth of each post and remove any that didn't help someone learn to do better. >>>This would be the ideal, but as I say it is pretty clear when you lower the bar to REALLY obvious timewasters what needs to go and what doesn't. That would be a neat trick if you could do it but how would you know the moderator of usefulness was making the right decision? >>>Everyone makes mistakes, but you'd have at least 2 experienced mods with an ability to say sorry. Pete is an excellent mod, but at present he works within unrealistic parameters. Parsimony suggests that the simplest solution would tend to be the best – I believe the person the post is directed towards should judge usefulness, if they decide it's useful they'll listen if not they can simply ignore it. >>>This is fine up to a point and I agree with you. The point at which it ceases to be fine, and I'm sorry to harp on about this but the point needs to be rammed home, is where the poet/ "critter" in question clearly has no intention of participating meaningfully in the workshop for one reason or another - usually clear enough to any experienced mod after one or two posts. quote:"That is soooo beautiful dahhhhlin" appended as a "crit" to a piece that has obvious flaws - not only IMHO is not gonna help someone do better, it's gonna positively harm their chances of doing so. I think you may be overlooking one of the best tools used during learning – simple encouragement. While I agree that the addition of advice or critical opinion is also a prerequisite there's no reason I can think of why individual responses cannot be either one or the other as long as both are given. >>>Of course I agree with that totally. I'm certainly not overlooking encouragement - I give it to deserving poets daily. Heh. Seriously though - I'm not talking about genuine encouragement coupled with, say, negative feedback, or for that matter positive feedback - what I'm talking about is the gratuitous one liner as above, or the vanity poster, or the plagiarist. M |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Geez! Why am I bothering, I cross-posted with Sid and he said it all better than me. Will you marry me? M |
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ChristianSpeaks Member
since 2006-05-18
Posts 396Iowa, USA |
How do you know what will help me learn. You do not know my background. You do not know what type of poetry I like. You don't know what I have or have not published. You do not know what my literary influences are. You do not know the contributing factors that meet my learning styles. Hell, I don't even know how you are so qualified. I have a undergraduate and graduate degree in education. I don't think you have any idea what will help people learn. CS |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Because there’s an outside chance that the poster may gain a little knowledge and recognise their mistakes, because they may use that knowledge to improve, because we were all there once and because they shouldn’t be belittled simply because we think we’re better than them. quote: Because, as you said yourself, people can rack up thousands of posts in the Open Forums without improving yet show a vastly greater improvement when they interact in CA. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Hey CS back off will you [EDIT by moderator]. I am here to give my opinion on poetry on this board and on the debate Warmhrt started. What is your problem with me? Practically every post you've made to a thread in which I'm participating has either been a personal attack or a defensive rant. I think it's best if we just ignore each other from here on in. If you have a problem with the way I behave rather than post it into other's threads please e-mail a mod and he/she will no doubt take it up with me. Cheers for now. M [This message has been edited by Not A Poet (09-15-2006 05:56 PM).] |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Moonbeam, Sorry I missed your post while posting mine. I understand what you’re saying, and in a perfect world every post in CA would be a genuine request for comment but even in an imperfect world some of the posts may be new poets who genuinely want to learn and throwing out those babies along with the bathwater doesn’t seem to make any sense. CA has coped until now with the type of posts you’re talking about – they were just ignored – the posters got bored and moved to pastures new. Even in the halcyon days that people keep harping on about those posts existed they were simply less obvious because the forum had more active members who posted and critiqued. I agree that CA needs another moderator, Pete does try to steer new posters towards the preferred input and it can’t be easy doing it pretty much single-handedly. |
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ChristianSpeaks Member
since 2006-05-18
Posts 396Iowa, USA |
You are [EDIT by moderator], walking all over everyone's work without so much as a single post to prove your wisdom. Try answering my questions. cs [This message has been edited by Not A Poet (09-15-2006 05:57 PM).] |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
I understand what you're saying, and in a perfect world every post in CA would be a genuine request for comment but even in an imperfect world some of the posts may be new poets who genuinely want to learn and throwing out those babies along with the bathwater doesn't seem to make any sense. Grinch You are right that such posts always existed - but Warmhrt is also right standards have gradually slipped over the years - I've read back to 1999. Actually when you look at it closely there are few "babies", most genuine learners show a willingness to make insightful comments in a fairly grammatical way within a very very few posts of arriving. Most people who aren't really interested except to showcase, post very short, usually sloppily composed, comments and as you say disappear when they don't get told they are Poe's. There are patterns to this. Then of course there are the "critters" who simply follow a friend's poems into the forum to heap plaudits. Where's the harm you say. It depends what you want. If you want to raise the standard of the workshopping and thereby assist learners more then you need a constant supply of new and fairly experienced blood (because posters get tired, bored, need rest etc). Sid is dead right, for while there are plenty of good people out there willing to give their time to help, there is no way they are going to visit and stay in a forum where they can see such a uniformly low level of writing which is not only tolerated but actually appears to be welcomed! Incidentally the sort of behaviour exhibited by CS towards me is also a big big turn off for poets who simply want to get on with the job - good moderating picks up and cuts off this sort of thing early. I admit that how you actually implement some form of policing when you only have one CA forum is problematic. Other sites I know have at least two forums and timewasters or irredeemably clueless poets are relegated pretty sharpish to the lower forum where they then have to prove themselves before being allowed to move up again. But I'm sure I could think of something! As a final point, I think you'd actually find that if policing was introduced and the level did rise, then at least some of the abusers wouldn't bother to post at all, not many maybe but some. M |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Folks, this truly is a good discussion and one that we probably need and can learn from. But, please try to keep it civil, on topic and avoid personal insults. Thanks all. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Moonbeam, quote: Therein lies your problem, different people have a tendency to want different things, CS doesn’t want totally negative or harsh replies, I want to ensure that the newbies don’t get chewed to bits and kicked into next week and you want something bordering on The Dead Poets Society. (I nearly added that Pete and Ron want a quiet life but they wouldn’t be doing what they do if they wanted that ).What they don’t really want is people telling them what they want, in that respect I think you’ve hit QA like a bit of a whirlwind, you aren’t the first btw and I doubt you’ll be the last – personally I haven’t got a problem with rattling a few cages every once in a while – and I have to admit that part of me is tempted to join the DPS but my worry is the cost. I’ve seen segregated CA forums and forums supposedly dedicated to perfecting the ART of it’s members, they don’t often work. Segregation relies on hard lines drawn between the good and the not so good; on one side you have self-professed experts stroking their egos with their poems and their replies. On the other you have the lesser poets bumbling around trying to prove they’re either good enough to post with the big boys or at least better than the masses in Open. In both the post swing wildly from fawning on a fellow expert to swotting at a perceived underling with a caustic reply neither is conducive to any real improvement. Frankly looking at the alternative our little CA looks pretty damn cosy, so there are a few people posting the wrong thing for the wrong reason in the wrong place, that never stopped the DPS from co-existing in the past and it won’t in the future. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Sorry Pete, I missed your post, I'll crawl back under my rock and let the critiquing of the original post continue. (sorry to you too Kris) |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
quote: That’s all well and good if they do indeed wish to improve. You know as well as I do that many who come on CA these days are simply looking for that ego stroke. It’s especially apparent when several of their apple-polishing friends follow them in. quote: Yes, we were. I certainly was, but as I said in a previous thread, it wasn’t until I began listening to the more in-depth critics—often the most caustic ones, who pull no punches—that I began to show marked improvement in my writing. They were the ones less prone to hand out the gratuitous, fluffy, pat-your-tush kind of comments, but rather backed up their criticisms. Yeah, that was difficult at first. It took swallowing a bit of over-done, overly-bland pride and growing thicker skin scalded by some of the scathing remarks, but I’m much more confident today because I went through that. I doubt very much I would have grown as much had I chosen to post in all the syrupy forums. A good critique shouldn’t come across as condescending. But a really good critic will usually come across as knowing a bit more than the one receiving the criticism. That’s just a fact! Conversely, many good critics will admit to being weak at certain skills. None of us is perfect. We are all at different levels of writing. And, whether you care to accept it or not, some of us are better! So, what’s the big deal? quote: Since you chose to take liberties in paraphrasing my comment, I'll restate my point: Not all will improve, nor will they necessarily improve simply by coming to CA. Especially if they are not open to honest critique. Sid If you must carp: Carpe diem! ICSoria My Poetry Forum [This message has been edited by cynicsRus (09-16-2006 12:17 PM).] |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
To the contrary Grinch, you're comments were spot on as far as I could tell. So, don't crawl back nder that rock yet. We need your participation and guidance. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
"I agree that CA needs another moderator, Pete does try to steer new posters towards the preferred input and it can’t be easy doing it pretty much single-handedly." Fully agree with this. Is there anyone that is brave enough? |
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kif kif Member
since 2006-06-01
Posts 439BCN |
heheh! Oh, great sentiments, people. From my experience here...I came in, and off-handedly rejected 'the fluff' replies (while making some of my own---syncronicity!), and generally kicked up a bit of a fuss about the 'standard' of critique. Personally, I think all the forums should have a 'standard', but as Grinch says...(to paraphrase) Who's The Fat Controller? I've learned by being here---I've learned that it's possible get my message across without getting into a personal argument, although the term still alludes me... Whatever, I've found that like follows like, no matter how cutting. Enjoyed your rant, moonbeam, and warmhrt, there's no doubt where you're coming from, and although you're polite, you pull no punches, either. Both, expressing clearly what's going on, through different 'styles', and poetry's just that (to me.) I feel oppressed...will my last comment be taken as 'fluff'? Yikes...in motion. |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
This forum already has three good moderaters listed. If only Pete chooses to participate, it probably means things are pretty well covered in that department. What CA really needs is to attract the quality critics they once had, posting on a regular basis. Those inclined to speak confidently and frankly in critiquing another’s work. It appears there have been more than a few of them show up in this thread. The trick is in developing this forum so that it induces such people to remain as regular contributors. This means giving them freer rein to speak their minds no matter how vainglorious they may appear to others. It would be incumbent upon them as well to keep their emotions on an even plane regardless of whether they feel personally threatened by less sophisticated comments. And no, they needn’t necessarily be great poets, Senior Members, nor members whose stock has risen or is on the rise according to anyone’s particular standards; just well read and sufficiently articulate to formulate complete, syntactically correct sentences. If you must carp: Carpe diem! ICSoria My Poetry Forum |
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kif kif Member
since 2006-06-01
Posts 439BCN |
"...articulate to formulate complete, syntactically correct sentences." Sounds Like A Plan...oops |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Grinch Now we're getting to the nub of it. As regards Ron and Pete you make it sound like they don't want people telling them what to do. That may be so, but if I thought for one moment that either of them wasn't open to suggestion and argument then I'd not be wasting my time here. Granted Ron seems to have very fixed ideas about the ethos of the site and as you know I have a big issue with some of the main site's pronunciations on where poetry comes from. But yanno even that "from the heart" pronouncement I suppose is ok taken in the context of a certain type of "Hallmark" poetry and in a site where poetry is not so much an art form in itself as a tool with which people communicate and make friendships. Social harmony is important; dare I say it perhaps even more important than poetry itself! I have a lot of time for what Ron seems to have done at PIP in that by and large it's a safe, family friendly place to be, where people aren't flaming or swearing at each other every other line. Having said all that there seems to me to be one area of the site that doesn't sit, I'm going to use the word again, "honestly" with the rest, and that is CA. I suppose it's the name that raises the hopes of people like myself - "CRITICAL" "ANALYSIS". I don't have to define those words for most people to realise that they carry the implication of rigorous, almost forensic, examination coupled with scientific undertones: method, logic, professionalism, hard work, learning. So when a literate newbie arrives all excited to find that what he/or she has entered is actually, as CS said and you implied: "a lovely [cosy] little village" full of fluff there is a feeling of disillusionment which would put many off from even registering - it's only masochists like me who persist. Against that background let's get back to looking at my "It depends what you want" comment. Perhaps it would be better stated as: "It depends on what you are trying to achieve". And the "you" in this case isn't the poster (after all we are assuming that what the participant wants is to learn), no, the "you" is the person or persons running the forum. What is CA trying to achieve with a name like that? I know what the name looks like. I know what it suggests. Right now the name IS dishonest. The promise IS false. It wasn't always like that. Reading back, Brad and others did provide a pretty high quality environment for learning and discussion. But for several years now it appears to me that Pete (not his fault) has had to preside over a rather limp lettuce of a forum. Yes cozy. Yes friendly. But little more than an extension of the rest of PIP, and more important achieving no Critical Analysis, achieving very little in fact. To me a poet who posts in a workshop forum MUST be desiring improvement. Most poets who desire improvement (there are exceptions to this, but few) also want to see their poems published eventually in reputable journals. Maybe even a chapbook or a collection. How great would it be if a poet who started out in CA as a beginner ended up with a collection published by one of the mainstream publishers? To me that really WOULD be something to shoot for, and just think of the spin off in knowledge to all the others in the forum along the way. I'll bet there isn't one beginner who started here in CA who ended up with even a chapbook, perhaps not even one who was published in a good journal. That to me is a waste. A waste of everyones time, but especially a waste of the time of people like Pete and others who have tried to provide a constructive learning environment. One very important aspect of learning is emulation. That's one of the reasons why new poets are advised to read read read good contemporary poetry. So in a workshop - new writers will learn fastest and best if they are in a place where there are good poets and good critters. If the weight of postings in a forum are banal rubbish then they will learn banal rubbish. In CA these days there are perhaps one or two writers who are capable of publishable quality poems, and maybe four or five who can write a reasonably decent crit. When you take into account the waves of newbie and beginner posts combined with the fact that the more adept writers are by no means constantly here, you can see that the learning curve is going to stay at best flat and probably trend gradually down. That balance needs to change, and to do that you really do need some form of active monitoring of standards and powers to deal with substandard performance. On the other hand if you are happy with a forum which is "cosy" and friendly but the quality no better than Open and the learning practically zero, at the very least be honest about it and change the name to "Poetry Chat" or some such. I though you highlighted accurately one hazard when you said: "I've seen segregated CA forums and forums supposedly dedicated to perfecting the ART of it's members, they don't often work. Segregation relies on hard lines drawn between the good and the not so good; on one side you have self-professed experts stroking their egos with their poems and their replies. On the other you have the lesser poets bumbling around trying to prove they're either good enough to post with the big boys or at least better than the masses in Open. In both the post swing wildly from fawning on a fellow expert to swotting at a perceived underling with a caustic reply neither is conducive to any real improvement." This is very true and it's one of the reasons I'm here. I don't like that outcome any more than you apparently do. That's where Ron's overriding ethos at PIP comes into play. Politeness and kindness are both important and the people here are generally that. But you can be polite and kind while also being extremely firm and, yes, sometimes even sometimes hard if circumstances warrant it. So what to do. I have had just a couple of thoughts. If the two forums thing isn't a runner, then Sid's idea seems ok on the face of it except that on reflection I don't really see what it achieves. People who genuinely wanted to learn could easily get "lost" and frustrated in Open and in any event we are looking to attract people who are MORE expert than people here at present. I think I'd go for tightening the critting rules. First: "New posters to CA MUST do three crits in reasonably grammatically and syntactically correct (thanks Sid) English before they can post a poem." Not long crits, not expert crits, but crits that follow a basic template. This template should be published prominently as a permanent notice thread at the top of CA. There are plenty of models for "ideal" crits on the Internet; the usual stuff, say what you like or dislike about the poem say why, etc etc. I can set one out if anyone is interested. Second: "At the moderators' discretion after the posting of his/her first poem a poster might be asked to choose a good contemporary poem and to post it and then crit it, this would be compulsory before any further posts could be made" This would have the dual effect starting the newbie reading other poetry and also making him/her really think about how a good poem works. This could go on indefinitely until the newbie either gets fed up or starts to learn or show a willingness to really think about other people's poems. My final point is back to rules generally. If this forum is to function properly and without the sort of behaviour you mention in the above quote Grinch, then the few overriding rules that Ron insists on MUST be enforced absolutely rigidly by the moderators. Ron's rules: * Personal attacks are absolutely forbidden! * Posts depicting Suicide as a solution to life will be removed! * Posts advocating harm to a human being (including self-harm) will be removed! * Adult Content (including profanity) should be posted only in our Adult forums! * Sensationalistic violence in any forum will be removed! * Everything you post MUST belong to you. Copyright infringements will be removed! So far since I came I've seen an instance of plagiarism (now removed), a borderline poem involving suicide (still there) and a poem designed as a personal attack on me (as well as several comments from the same person) which is apparently absolutely forbidden, but is still there. This issue needs to be addressed too. M [This message has been edited by moonbeam (09-17-2006 01:32 PM).] |
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ChristianSpeaks Member
since 2006-05-18
Posts 396Iowa, USA |
I agree with what you have said M. I just want to reiterate the fact that criticism doesn't have to be destructive. I belive that we as poets (rather young or experienced) have a duty to futher our prefered form of art to others. This is true in performing and visual art as well. If a young artist is taken to task over matters that he or she haven't had the chance to learn or have not been in the culture or situation to assemilate, is it their fault that they still want to write? And it is our duty to tell them they have no business being on a certain forum or board? We're killing our own art by handing down these decrees. Though maybe I haven't shown it in the last few days due to extenuating curcumstances, I agree we need to show a certian sense of civility on the board. Hopefully we can get back to that idea. Lastly, if we are talking rules: I think that if you critique you must post. Just a thought. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
>>>I still don't like the fact that you used a poem to portray me in a very inaccurate light, and I still hope that either you or Pete will remove it as I still believe it infringes the first rule of PIP. >>> Nevertheless as you appear now to want to debate civilly I'll answer: I agree with what you have said M. I just want to reiterate the fact that criticism doesn't have to be destructive. >>>MY criticism is never meant to be destructive and if it ever is then I would be the first to apologise. My criticism is however often negative and in being negative is constructive. I hope you appreciate the difference, but if you don't I'd be happy to explain further. I belive that we as poets (rather young or experienced) have a duty to futher our prefered form of art to others. This is true in performing and visual art as well. If a young artist is taken to task over matters that he or she haven't had the chance to learn or have not been in the culture or situation to assemilate, is it their fault that they still want to write? >>>Of course it's not their fault!! It's that very situation where I love to try and help people. I have no idea why you imply that I might think otherwise. (Btw is it too much to ask that you use a spellchecker, it makes your posts look ever so much more credible if you do, and also stops people thinking that you are too lazy to care). And it is our duty to tell them they have no business being on a certain forum or board? >>>That's a different matter entirely. If you read my post above you'll know that I'm not advocating instant dismissal or anything like that. HOWEVER if a person shows a total disinclination to work to learn, and is, for instance, repeatedly told to spell correctly and doesn't bother, then I think a point comes where, yes, they need to be excluded from participation until they have shown that the attitude has changed. We're killing our own art by handing down these decrees. >>>Rubbish. Though maybe I haven't shown it in the last few days due to extenuating circumstances, I agree we need to show a certain sense of civility on the board. Hopefully we can get back to that idea. >>>Hopefully we can. Deleting your poem might be a good start towards it. Lastly, if we are talking rules: I think that if you critique you must post. Just a thought. >>>You're suggesting a rule that makes it compulsory to post a poem if you want to offer crits? Incredible! Have you any idea how many people there are out there wanting their poems "expertly" critiqued for every one person able and willing to offer helpful critique? In any case you miss the whole point of a workshop, it's a privilege to be able to post your poems for comments but it's a duty to try and offer useful comments on posted poems. People who offer their time and energy to comment on poems are to be thanked by those poets fortunate enough to receive critiques. >>>So what about all those editors, academics, readers of poetry and others who don't actually WRITE poetry - you are gonna ban them from offering insightful advice on the forum? >>>For all you know I might not have written a poem in my life. I am certainly not vain enough to claim to be a poet. >>>And what about all the published poets who might have time to spare to offer a few helpful tips but know damn well this forum has nothing to offer them in terms of help with their own poetry - you gonna ban them too? M |
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ChristianSpeaks Member
since 2006-05-18
Posts 396Iowa, USA |
M- Just a few thoughts and replies to you response: >>>MY criticism is never meant to be destructive and if it ever is then I would be the first to apologise. My criticism is however often negative and in being negative is constructive. I hope you appreciate the difference, but if you don't I'd be happy to explain further. Though your criticism has never been meant to be destructive, I hope you realize the fireworks that it has caused over the last few days. Negativity does not equal criticism. Negativity is only a part of good criticism. Good criticism is meant to guide a person to succeed, not scare them away from a task. >>>If you read my post above you'll know that I'm not advocating instant dismissal or anything like that. HOWEVER if a person shows a total disinclination to work to learn, and is, for instance, repeatedly told to spell correctly and doesn't bother, then I think a point comes where, yes, they need to be excluded from participation until they have shown that the attitude has changed. Spell checking doesn't show the attitude of a writer on this board or serve as the universal sign of disinclination towards anything. >>>So what about all those editors, academics, readers of poetry and others who don't actually WRITE poetry - you are gonna ban them from offering insightful advice on the forum? No, but I would like to know who they are, and why they critique without writing. It would be like having a vocal coach who doesn't sing. I don't get it. >>>For all you know I might not have written a poem in my life. I am certainly not vain enough to claim to be a poet. ok? But you are vain enough to offer what is to be thought if as informed critique? I'm not trying to be abrasive, but I do wonder where you are coming from. In all of the criticism I've received, I have learned the most from those who I have known to struggle through the same things and have been successful. Sometimes teachers, coaches, performers, directors, and in this case writers. Those who show their work on the board as a learning tool; etc. >>>And what about all the published poets who might have time to spare to offer a few helpful tips but know damn well this forum has nothing to offer them in terms of help with their own poetry - you gonna ban them too? no, but it's an awfully lofty opinion that a poet is beyond the place in which they could learn from those less skilled than they. It's like a teacher who can't learn from a student. It happens all the time. At least to me.... cs An artist's job is not to commentate the truth. An artist's job is to create it. -Dane Barner |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Taking your points seriatim CS: Though your criticism has never been meant to be destructive, I hope you realize the fireworks that it has caused over the last few days. Negativity does not equal criticism. Negativity is only a part of good criticism. Good criticism is meant to guide a person to succeed, not scare them away from a task. >>>I am obviously aware of the fireworks. Fireworks can be fatal if aimed incorrectly but absolutely beautiful and vision changing when in the right hands. I hope I end up by getting it right. Spell checking doesn't show the attitude of a writer on this board or serve as the universal sign of disinclination towards anything. >>>Words are a writer’s tools. If you were a carpenter would you use a blunt chisel or the wrong saw? No, but I would like to know who they are, and why they critique without writing. It would be like having a vocal coach who doesn't sing. I don't get it. >>>I don’t mean to be rude, but are you being serious? Harold Bloom - and about a zillion other examples in all walks of life. ok? But you are vain enough to offer what is to be thought if as informed critique? >>>I’m not offering anything of the sort - I don’t call myself a “critic” either, I certainly don’t expect to be thought of as “informed”. Look, I’m simply here to offer my opinion and to try and help anyone who thinks I can help them. If that makes me “vain” in your eyes then tough. I'm not trying to be abrasive, but I do wonder where you are coming from. In all of the criticism I've received, I have learned the most from those who I have known to struggle through the same things and have been successful. Sometimes teachers, coaches, performers, directors, and in this case writers. Those who show their work on the board as a learning tool; etc. >>>Fine. Well perhaps if you quit jumping to conclusions five milliseconds after I arrive here you might find out where I am coming from. Patience and all that. no, but it's an awfully lofty opinion that a poet is beyond the place in which they could learn from those less skilled than they. >>>That’s for each writer to decide for him or herself I think. And quite frankly, in the state this forum has been in for a while, no reasonably experienced writer was going to learn very much. M |
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kif kif Member
since 2006-06-01
Posts 439BCN |
'learning' comes in many forms, but if you think you can't learn anything, then you won't. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Sigh. I was going to shut down the CA forum today, both to provide some distance for emotions to better settle and to give myself some time to read more deeply in here than is my normal practice. Fortunately, the histrionics seemed to have calmed and I was able to do my reading here without too much frustration. Some, but not too much. Then, instead, I was going to write my usual point-by-point treatise, taking each of the issues recently raised and addressing them one by one. (Heck, if nothing else, perhaps an example of our [quote] tag at work would encourage others to start using it so we wouldn't have to read every word of a post to separate out what we've already read in an earlier post. When everyone invents their own system, there is no system. Please, guys, put quotations in quote tags, so others can quickly skim them as reminders, and avoid searching for where the quotation ends and new content begins? It'll take at least a bit of the tedium out of what is growing increasingly tedious.) (While I'm in complaining mode, it would also be helpful if our cut-and-paste participants could configure their word processors to eliminate non-standard characters. Here's a screen shot from just one paragraph from just one post:  I'm not picking on Moonbeam, either, because this thread is rife with similarly difficult to read text. If you're using a Microsoft word processor together with a Microsoft browser, you're probably not even seeing those squiggles, but those using just about any other browser are often struggling to read what you wrote. Arguably, it's little different than careless spelling and certainly has much the same effect. Each of those squiggles are specialized characters, like "smart" quotes or em dashes, that MS Word inserts automatically when you type a regular quote or simple dash. You can take control of your own formatting by going to Tools/Auto Correct/AutoFormat As You Type and removing the check mark next to all of the Replace functions. Click over on the AutoFormat tab and you'll find that the check marks there still remain, so any time you want to bring back smart quotes and nice em dashes you can use Format/AutoFormat from the menu. All you've done is remove the Auto part of the process. Trust me, if you're going to use cut-and-paste, people on the Internet will thank you for it. Back to our regularly scheduled program ... ) I decided against the point-by-point, however, because frankly, I just don't have the time. Lacking that, we'll all just have to settle for a few relatively brief (for me, at least) statements of fact. While I consider the craft of writing important enough to have dedicated more than two score years to studying it, that's not really what this site is about. We certainly don't ignore craft, but neither do we strongly emphasis it. Those with a fervent desire to master our crafts will always be encouraged within these digital walls, and we can all share links to dozens of great web sites about craft, along with recommendations for hundreds of great books about craft, not to mention tens of thousands of novels, stories, and poems that provide great examples of this thing called craft. Personally, I could talk about craft for hours and hours and night after night. It would be fun, too. It just wouldn't be very productive. As previously noted, there are already dozens of web sites, hundreds of books, and tens of thousands of novels, stories and poems. I don't presume I can do better, and honestly see no reason to try. Don't get me wrong. If there weren't already excellent sites expounding on the writing craft, if there weren't already plenty of sites that offered hard-hitting, no-holds-barred critiques of poems and stories, I would probably feel compelled to start one. But hold on to your hats, please -- it wouldn't be THIS site. Poetry has magic, especially when it comes from the heart. Craft is important, but it's also important to remember that craft isn't poetry. It's just craft. It's the little tricks of the trade we've collectively learned over thousands of years of reading and writing good stuff. Craft is important, even vital, but it doesn't necessarily follow that the person who studies craft the hardest is automatically going to become the best poet. It doesn't work that way. It can't work that way, because Art is more than mere craft. It runs more deeply Poetry comes from the heart. Or the soul, or the mind, or perhaps the liver, or whatever other inner organ rings true to you personally. It comes from within. Poetry is merely given substance by craft. We use tools to turn our inner vision into communication, much as a painter uses pigment and brushes to convey his Truths to others. Our tools are important, and they can even sometimes seem beautiful in their cleverness, but they are still only the path to a greater destination. Craft is the means, not the end. Craft is vital to art, but before ever there can be craft, there must be desire. I know little enough about writing, but I know much, I think, about a love for writing. A Passion, one might even say? I could no more not write today than I could not breath today, and I know my tomorrow will be the same, and every tomorrow after that for so many as I draw breath. Writing defines me. In 1998, when I first posted a few crude poems to the Internet and invited others to join me, I certainly didn't do so in hopes of teaching anyone about craft. Others, all better suited, all better qualified, were already doing that. The most I could do, the most I have ever hoped to do, was ignite some small spark of desire in others to explore this thing about which I am so passionate. I was lucky, I know. As a youngster, my teachers didn't discourage writing by placing too high an emphasis on spelling, grammar, or even, I recognize in retrospect, making a hell of a lot of sense. They let writing be fun, rather than making it into work. Instead of insisting I learn, they instilled in me a desire to learn. I know I was lucky because, over the years, with my own children and those of many others, I've seen far too many teachers who get it all wrong. All they can teach are rules (which is a subset of craft, not incidentally), and too often they use those rules to destroy all sense of desire in our children. I think more kids today than ever before walk out of high school with an absolute hatred of reading and writing. Before there is craft, there must be desire. I'm not going to limit the scope of pipTalk.com or netpoets.com by claiming our only objective is to encourage desire by making writing fun again. That wouldn't be fair to the many people, outside myself, who have made it so much more than that. However, while I don't have a problem with more, I will not abide less. Every year or two we get another someone coming into the forums intent on remaking our home in their own image. They make the predictable assumption that everyone wants just what they want, usually predicated on a belief that everyone is running just a few paces behind them on the track (rarely has any of the locals caught up to them yet). They always know best and inevitably predict our "structure ... is gonna collapse." Eight years later, we're still here. In that time, I've even seen some few successes. I've seen people who lacked confidence gain it, and people overflowing with confidence discover they still had some few things to learn. I stopped counting our writers, both in the forums and at the main site, who have been published, though I still have one shelf in my library dedicated to their books and journals and CDs. It's a small shelf, but I know it will continue to grow. I've seen high school kids become college graduates, poets succeed (and poets fail) in relationships developed within these walls, children born, and people die. I've been disappointed, I've been exhilarated, I've been hurt, I've been proud, and through all the "friendship and pleasant human contacts" that have helped make writing fun again, I've even managed to read one or two really good poems along the way. Anyone who thinks they can add to that is more than welcome to try. And God bless them. But change it into something entirely different? Over my dead body. Critical Analysis will be a pleasant environment for everyone at pipTalk or Critical Analysis will cease to be a part of pipTalk. I honestly think there are already more than enough ego-driven, take-no-prisoner web sites out there to keep those so inclined happy, but nonetheless, if everyone here wants to see CA go in that direction, I'll be happy to invest a little time and effort to eventually move it to it's own web server. Or you can find one of those many other ego-driven sites out there. What I won't do is see this forum turn our home into something we've managed to avoid for nearly eight years. I've closed forums before when they stopped serving our mandate and I have no doubt I'll have to do it again someday. Having said that, I want to add that much of what some want is also exactly what I would like to see in the forum. What you want and what I insist upon need not be mutually exclusive. Here's a short quotation from a post I made way back in 1999. quote: Sound familiar? The difference, of course, is in the execution. I can't (and won't!) teach someone how to be courteous, but I might suggest that the foundation for courtesy is empathy. When you find something that troubles you, when it's something that *really* gets under your skin, you might find it useful to step back and examine how your own quirks might compare. For example, Moonbeam has made it clear she doesn't appreciate Internet speak", but nonetheless insists on using it herself. Personally, I think "crits" is probably okay, but find "critters" to be more than a tad bit distasteful. A little empathy might suggest that what she does and what she dislikes are different only in degree, not in kind, and that most people use slang not out of malice but out of habit. Empathy can remove a bit of the sting when otherwise faced with frustration. It seems "I" and "me" shouldn't be used in poems (which is downright silly, btw), but are fine in critiques? It's okay to call a poem rubbish, but any criticism of a critique is instantly a personal attack? The critic is doing the poet a massive favor (which tells us which site moonbeam has been frequenting, I think), while apparently forgetting she's at a poetry site, not a critic's site (which, indeed, can't exist without the poet)? If it seems like I'm picking on moonbeam, it's only because I've already had this discussion (countless times!) with anyone who has been here more than a year or two. It's not really a condemnation of moonbeam because, indeed, the whole point is that we ALL live in glass houses. Start throwing stones and you'll quickly discover that others are similarly armed. Some have pretty deadly aim, too. Harsh and honest are not synonyms. Indeed, if you're looking for a word that more closely aligns with harsh, I think it would be lazy. It's easy to call a work rubbish, it's much more difficult to explain why the treatment of a theme is trite (there is no theme, of itself, which is trite). It's easy to call a work self-centered, it's much more difficult to explain why the best autobiographical poems (and they're ALL autobiographical) are universal. It's so, so, so easy to rely on sarcasm to make a point, but much, much, much more difficult to actually write well enough to be understood. Poets don't face a lot of pressure at pipTalk unless they decide to tackle a theme that demands responsibility. If their theme is going to violence, suicide, cutting, or clinical depression, they damn well better be good enough writers to do it well. Critics, on the other hand, face that pressure all the time. Every post they make matters, and they damn well better be good enough writers to do it well. They don't have to be right, but they do have to write without being lazy. Moonbeam, I have absolutely no problem with someone rocking the boat a little now and then. Personally, I think about half of the advice you've offered has been misguided or wrong, but that's okay because well over ninety percent of the poetry has been equally weak. We all have room to grow, something everyone would be well advised to remember from time to time. There's really only one thing you've said in these forums with which I must take issue. If you want to eject people from your own home you are free to do so. Start your own web site, if you like, and you can kick out anyone who doesn't meet your standards. Please, however, do not ever again tell anyone in my home that they don't belong here. Poets, with all their literary immaturity and weaknesses, are welcome here so long as they follow our few simple rules. I value writers immensely. Critics, on the other hand, I can usually take or leave. Very quickly (because I still want to keep this post brief!), I'd like to address Kris's originating poem and the theme behind it. I don't think quality is something that can simply be wished into existence, and I certainly don't think it can ever be regulated into being with a bunch of rules. It has to be created and the only way to do that is one post at a time. As a group, we have no power. Only as individuals can any of make a difference, again, one post at a time. If there is a lack of quality in this forum, I can do no more than anyone else here can do: post some good stuff. On the other hand, if the real problem is not a lack of quality but rather a quantitative flood in which the quality is being lost, then perhaps there are some steps that can be taken. Indeed, there are a great many potential steps, depending in part on hard some people want to work to implement them. Before a problem can be solved, though, it must first be defined. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Ron I haven't got time this morning for a full reply. I just wanted to say thank you for taking the time to care about replying so comprehensively. I know you are busy. I'll be back later. Oh, and sorry about the formatting; had no idea my naughty wp was doing that! M |
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kif kif Member
since 2006-06-01
Posts 439BCN |
Great post, Ron. I love the points about craft and desire. If a writer comes onto this board, before learning the craft, but already having beautiful thoughts about words, being beaten-down with ascerbic critisism might frighten off the thought of learning how to express them uniquely. I feel an affinity with this argument, (moonbeam, I see a little of my introductory furore in your *inciteful words, although I'm not as academic. I can't help but notice though, you say nothing about strengthening your own learning-curve...you just talk about 'teaching' us) because I've 'just got' the fact that everyone educates differently, and I believe that C.A. is a worthy space for everyone who wishes to grow and train, as long as it remains a pleasure to have discussions here. (*just as people can be incited to action, it can also induce apathy.) This is a matter of empathy, not sympathy, and remembering that all apects of communication are under analysis, ability to understand, that while the want's are collective, the needs are individual. |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
quote:Even more importantly, one should consider that all good poetry, is crafted! Those who learn their craft well and apply it well, certainly have a better chance of writing something notable and memorable for years to come. No, the person who studies craft the hardest may not become the best poet, but s/he’ll still, in most instances be further ahead of those who are too lazy to see the value of such tedious endeavors. A writer who studies from the onset to develop his craft, will definitely be more adept at his craft after one hundred posts than that vaunted Member Rara-whatever will after thirty thousand. quote:Well stated points which help support mine above. The greater desire should be the destination of perfection in that craft. Granted a lofty goal, but one which helps maintain focus. quote:Ron, many of us do indeed empathize and in fact remember how we struggled along, unable to understand what we were doing wrong. Our more critical fellow posters left us wondering why they seemingly hated us, while the ones encouraging us seldom had any substance in their remarks. Yes, I have my quirks—who doesn’t? As you pointed out once before—a point I willingly accept—it’s part of my ego. We all have one. Some are just more pronounced than others. It’s not a bad thing, it’s just a matter of confidence in one’s abilities. You’re another prime example of that fact--what I most respect about you in these debates btw. quote: Having grown up around harsh people, I’d be extremely reluctant to call them lazy. My dad at seventy five years old, can still work circles around me. I know what you’re going for in the analogy, but it’s just not a very good one. Honesty relates to harsh oftentimes, much more closely than does lazy. There are numerous examples in everyday life that one could point to. quote:There are many trite themes proffered daily. If this were not the case, all the PIP writers would be writing masterpieces and you’d need a whole lot more shelves to contain their published works. quote: Another good point and I agree wholeheartedly. As anyone who has opened their own site knows, it’s no easy task. Making it successful by whatever standard you place on its success is even more difficult. You certainly have my respect here. quote: Whether you admit it or not, you have set the rules, thereby setting the level of quality that will pervade. quote:Then please do. And contribute your intellect to the analysis. I’m sure it would be appreciated. I also have lots more good stuff to post as well, (I would challenge anyone to dispute this, based on my previous posts)and I would like it critically analyzed but it simply is no longer worth the bother with the kind of analysis that has been given of late—Pete, moonbeam and a few (damn few nowadays)others notwithstanding. I’ve also realized for some time that I’m in the minority, in my preference of the more honest approach, no matter how harsh it may appear. I’ve learned to glean from the harshest critiques. I’ve gotten quality help here in the past because there were some good, honest and outspoken ones. Several who, as I understand, were regulars for years, simply moved on when they realized their style was not appreciated or perhaps had become less so. quote: I’ve seen some really good poets come and go as well. And I have a pretty good idea why most of them chose to move on: All too often their quality posts--which far too many inexperienced writers are incapable of critiquing--simply become covered by the detritus of inane posts with all its related commentary. quote: I’ve seen this problem addressed time and again—always with the same outcome: PIP shall follow the status quo. The problem has been defined time and again. The problem with the problem however, is it doesn’t meet your standard of definition. As I’ve stated before, that’s fine; you are the owner of this site and you get to set whatever standard will apply. My original problem with the matter was and is today, that you encourage only the fluff laden posts, as they apply to critiques—which is, in the minds of some, contradictory to the very definition of Critical Analysis. If indeed you wish to encourage critical thinking, as the title so implies, then allow the harsh ones to stand as well. Otherwise the very title is merely a hypocritical label—in truth, neither ‘Critical’, nor Analytical. That’s not to say posts need to insult one’s intelligence or even inexperience. But if the inexperienced can’t abide a critique which tells them where and why their poem isn’t working, they really should be encouraged to consider one of the other forums. Ron, without question, you’ve built a very successful site here. It’s also one of the most technically informative on the net as well. Let’s face it though, you still lack a venue that allows for more hard-hitting analysis, if not at least, honest. No it needn’t be caustic, but why allow it to become one more Open forum as well? Encouraging writers is one thing; encouraging them to remain stagnant is quite another. If you must carp: Carpe diem! ICSoria My Poetry Forum [This message has been edited by cynicsRus (09-21-2006 05:23 PM).] |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
I'd endorse just about everything Sid said; put much more eloquently and elegantly than my half done rambling effort. One the point about triteness - (sorry I don't know how to do the blockquote thing) Ron said: "It's easy to call a work rubbish, it's much more difficult to explain why the treatment of a theme is trite (there is no theme, of itself, which is trite)." Sid said: "There are many trite themes proffered daily. If this were not the case, all the PIP writers would be writing masterpieces and you’d need a whole lot more shelves to contain their published works." I guess the point Ron is making Sid is that ANY theme at all (even say something as banal as the serial "Dynasty" - heh) can be made "serious" in the hands of an expert. Which in my view entirely makes the point about the importance and power of good craft. Anyway back later I hope. M quote: Most grateful Pete, sorry to be so technically inept. [This message has been edited by moonbeam (09-21-2006 04:56 PM).] |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Blockquote is done thus. [ quote]the stuff you want to quote[ /quote] but leave out the spaces following the [ characters in the above. They were put in to fool the system into showing it as entered instead of quoting it. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Kif- kif I have always learnt most from reading and commenting on other’s poetry and from trying to show others how I think one should approach writing. I am of course still learning, something I have, incidentally said at least once (Rhia’s thread) since I’ve been here. Ron I’ve tried my best to follow your instructions regarding formatting, but I use wordperfect so I’m not totally sure whether I’ve sorted it or not. I don’t have time for a point-by-point either and anyway it’s probably not appropriate. There are some big issues here like: “What is CA for?” but it’s clear from the way you’re picking me up on issues such as my perceived double standards regarding internet speak that we just need to clear up something that’s my own fault. It’s a matter of degree. The fact is, that although I obviously believe what I’ve been preaching, my presentation has been to date deliberately, er, “forceful”. More forceful that my “usual” style. When I say I won’t tolerate internet speak or spelling errors or grammatical errors I suppose I may have come over as some kind of fanatical academic intent on pinning every slippage. The fact is that I’m not so much interested in what appears on the page as what lies behind it. As you point out I use slang - crit, critter (yes horrid), yanno, ya, lol even! There is a world of difference however between someone who throws in a few slang or shorthand phrases in an otherwise lucid and grammatical paragraph, and someone who through either laziness or disinclination to try writes all their responses in ungrammatical, misspelt internet slang. I choose this example because you’ll have picked up a degree of intransigence in my posts that doesn’t represent my settled view. Like I say, it was my decision to wade in like that and I now have to deal with it. The material point arising out of it is, however, that we probably differ less in fact that you think on some points. ................ On heart. Ok, that’s out of the way, now lets go straight to one of, for me, the main issues, or, pertinently, the “heart” of the matter. Poetry comes from the “heart”. Now re-stated by you as poetry comes from within. This is one of the areas where I think if we sat down over a beer we’d agree pretty much totally. “Poetry” as meant by you here, isn’t the words on the piece of paper so much as “that undefinable “something” that gives a piece of writing its power”. In this respect poetry is no different to any other aspect of human endeavour. I’m not even prepared to single out “art” in this respect. Fact is some people “have it” some people don’t, and a person who can “see” how to design the first steam engine isn’t necessarily the same person who can “see” how to string together a chain of words so as to move millions to tears. There is certainly some “spark” that energises all activities and raises them from the merely excellent to the level of genius. “Below” that however there is a heck of a long long way you can go in any arena without possessing that spark, and “craft” or “learning” can move you rapidly along that track. None of that I hope is too contentious. My problem with the statement “poetry comes from the heart” especially here on the internet or as a portal to a critical analysis forum is that, perhaps unfortunately, most people don’t make the distinctions that you and I make Ron. Many beginners in poetry see that statement and then proceed to waste months, if not years, writing “from the heart” believing that if they pour their innermost feelings onto the page then that is “poetry” that will move or help or entertain others. Regrettably the belief that ONLY sincerity and emotionalism makes poems can become quickly rooted in a “poet’s” mind and then, in some cases, it is very hard to shift. .................. On craft You say PIP isn’t primarily about craft. I know that, and probably if you are saying that that approach is going to apply to the whole of PIP i.e. CA as well, then I guess there’s not much more to discuss. It’s your site and your decision. But for what it’s worth I believe that this forum SHOULD be primarily about craft. CA is the place where, IMO, writers could be given the tools and the critical ability to improve their writing to the point where those gifts from the heart can be expressed with real power. Most tellingly I see absolutely no conflict between that aspiration and your quite understandable insistence that this should be a happy safe place. You might say, what’s the point? Plenty of books, plenty of other “critical” sites. Yes and no Ron. Though it might appear that I do nothing but complain about the site I do have a deep and sincere respect for what you have done here, and for the fact that it’s a safe and happy environment by and large. You can interact in PIP in a way you can’t on other sites and you self evidently can’t from books. You said: “Craft is the means, not the end.” I’d agree but I’d also say: “Craft is a vital part of the means to that end. And without it you’ll not get there.” .................. On desire. And yes, I agree about desire. I agree that desire comes first too. Desire to write, also desire to LEARN to write when you enter a place designed to help you learn. You know Ron, I could “forgive” the most gawdawful poetry in the world on the CA board, maybe even posted over and over by the same person; I could live with any number of spelling errors and grammatical mistakes, PROVIDED I could see or sense that the poster was trying their best to listen and learn. These are judgement calls. Difficult ones too on the Internet, but I’d like to think that over 10 years I’ve gained a feel for when a person has that desire and willingness to work to learn and when not. Sorry if that sounds pompous, it’s not meant to be. I know I make mistakes, I’ve made them since I came here, which is why strict forum rules which would be designed to depersonalise difficult situations would help. I hope by now you might see that I’m not like those teachers who insist on the hors d’oeuvre of grammar and spelling before you can touch the main course. I totally agree with you that writing should be fun and even zany. Hell, you’ve only got to read my exchanges in Rhea’s thread to see that. But when there’s no good reason NOT to be spelling correctly and writing sense, and with minimal effort it can be done, then let’s encourage it too. To finish on this one I’ll use your own words from 1999: “The only way we can hope to follow the path that's evolving, that of giving a more in-depth analysis to the poems posted in the CA forum, is if we refuse to tolerate carelessness. We all misspell words and everyone (except Nan, of course) occasionally makes grammatical mistakes. That's not the same as being careless in our posts, and I think we all recognize the difference. If a poet can't take the time to correct their obvious problems, they shouldn't expect us to take the time to help with the more subtle and meaningful ones.” Ron, that could be me talking! That is PRECISELY my position. ...................... On change - Over my dead body. Point One: You say that eight years later you are still here. Only “you” aren’t. (Where the “you” is CA.) 1999 - 2000 was vastly different to how it is now. Check it out as I have done. The evidence is there. Sure there were problems and tantrums, but overall it was vibrant place with a number of very enthusiastic participants and not a little good poetry and critique. Point Two: You say you get people coming into the forum intent of remaking. I’m not doing that. I’m trying to reawaken. Frankly I couldn’t care a toss if you don’t listen to my ideas. I’m putting them forward in response simply to Warmhrt’s original plea. I think that CA is a wasted resource right now for certain specific reasons. If you don’t want to act on my suggestions that of course is fine. It’s your site and I can move on if I wish, or if you wish me to. Point Three: You say: “But change it into something entirely different? Over my dead body.” Is anybody suggesting that? I’ve suggested a couple of extra rules and a template for model critiques. If that constitutes “entirely different” I’d be surprised. Nor, for the record, is it my intention to threaten the “pleasant environment”. ................................ After that Ron your post gets a mite personal, dare I say it in some places even a little catty. Lest my innate inclination to sarcasm (which by the way I apologise for and promise to try and curtail) comes out, I’ll resist replying each and every one of your comments. I don’t understand how you can say in one breath that you have studied craft and teaching for two decades and then in the next make such a ridiculous comment as: “It seems "I" and "me" shouldn't be used in poems (which is downright silly, btw), but are fine in critiques?”. Come on Ron, please keep the debate sensible. Of course nothing is innately wrong with using I and me in poems, I write them all the time. And I also have no clue as to why it should be ok that half my advice is misguided or wrong apparently (though you don’t specify which half) just so long as ninety percent of the poetry is weak. Why should weak poetry be subjected to wrong advice? There are other points to take issue with but all are trivial beside the accusation that I want to eject people from the site. Where you got that from I have no idea. I’m running out of time here so I’ll be brief(ish). The two extra rules I suggested would effectively mean that people who were not willing to follow them would possibly have posts delete or moved to Open. Of course nobody would be “ejected”. Two issues only really concern me. 1. The way someone can enter the forum and simply post poem after poem of low quality barely responding to efforts to help improve, and in addition contribute virtually nothing in the way of substantive comments on other poems. 2. The way a poster from elsewhere at PIP will post a poem and then receive short one line expressions of great praise from friends who practically never visit CA but who post to that one poem. I can imagine you getting ruffled by my saying that Ron. Please believe me when I say I am not being at all vindictive or petty. There are good reasons for discouraging such behaviour, not the least of which is that such comments are not really “critical analysis”, but more important they foster a certain irritation, even resentment, in the critics who ARE working in CA to provide substantial advice. If you can’t work out why that should be so I’ll explain when I have more time. Unfortunately I’m out of time Ron. I see what Sid means about “harsh” but I’m actually with you on the undesirability of harshness. Yes I have visited on occasions the website you suspect, and no I don’t like the harshness there. I think you and I might disagree a bit on degree here, and I’m looking back at my posts since I came and seeing that perhaps I did overstep the mark on a couple of occasions. I shall apologise sincerely to the poster where I feel I was unwarrantedly rude. I have other stuff to say about your attitude to critics. I agree in part. It will have to wait though. Start a forum of my own? Omg!! (note:internet slang!) Only crazy people do that Ron! People, for example, who can put up with rants and interference like mine, year after year, and still remain reasonably civil! Best. Moonbeam |
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divine chaos Senior Member
since 2006-07-09
Posts 617dancing 'neath the moon |
Perhaps the "fix" to this undying debate is rather simple. A new forum could be created, couldn't it? One for the harsh, in your face, beat you into the ground critiques that some are prone to give (yes moonbeam, that was directed at you, because I've read your critiques, and ... wow! *blinks* ), and another for those that want gentle critiquing on their emotional outpourings without someone telling them in no uncertain terms that it is a pile of rubbish. I have no problem really with harsh, terribly blunt critiquing, if it's requested; however, not everyone appreciates it. For some, the ones that use poetry as a therapeutic outlet, opening up for constructive criticism is like giving someone stick to poke around in their soul .. when you prick (or are one)they bleed, and are likely to respond in kind - harshly. Moonbeam, the first time I read you critiquing someone, my first reaction was not something that I could say here without being censored. After gritting my teeth and reading again, it seems that you might like poetry a bit and that you want to help others achieve more than mediocrity. The thing I see that I dont get is that you seem to be trying to force your critiquing methods on people that do -not- want it, and are condescending to those that disagree with you and the ones that lash out when you verbally stomp them into the ground. Who are you to tell people -how- they will learn best? We all learn differently. Not everyone that writes aspires to be a great poet that will go down in history, some just want a gentle hand to guide them in organizing their thoughts, or perfecting the meter in something they love. Your harsh treatment of those could cause more harm than good. I don't mean to come across as attacking you, Moon, not at all. I'm only trying to explain why it might be that you feel you're being (or are being) attacked by the ones you've critiqued here -- and to suggest perhaps another forum to separate critiques into two categories, if that's feasible. You seem knowledgable, Moon, though I can't really tell since you don't seem to post your own work here to open up for other people to critique, and I admire that you want to help others, even if I don't agree with your methods. I just know I'd never want you ripping into one of mine -- I'm one of the ones that writes for therapy ;-) To have you (or anyone) rip it to shreds would make me stop sharing anything - and it took me too long to get to the point where I'm comfortable letting people see what I do write to let someone convince me that my thoughts, feelings, and opinions are worth nothing because my "craft" is not perfected. ~Sheli By words the mind is winged ~Aristophanes~ [This message has been edited by divine chaos (09-22-2006 10:10 AM).] |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Moonbeam, You've laid out two issues: 1 Some people post lots of poems without attempting to actively engage or participate in any other way 2 Some people post replies that offer no advice or useful information beyond the fact that they like the poem. (or words to that effect )I could offer some reasonable arguments against both but I won't, mainly due to the fact that in essence I believe they're valid points. Now we have some issues to discuss all we need are some possible solutions so we can perhaps offer suggestions for Ron, the Moderators and the rest of the participants in CA to consider. Any ideas? |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Perhaps CA could have a "Critical stats" counter, similar to the "daily stats" but to keep track of the poems/comments here in CA? The poet could be free to post his first poem, without needing to give any critique. But in order to post another poem, his "critical stats" must have at least one comment/critique in its count. After he has that one count he may post another poem. But until his number of comment/critique has one more the system won't allow another poem to be posted by that person in CA. I know that may sound a bit cold, being based on numbers. But perhaps it may help stop people from posting here so loosely, without minding how important participation in critiquing is to this forum. Is that a sound idea? [This message has been edited by Essorant (09-23-2006 12:57 AM).] |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
::: Double sigh ::: quote: You SHOULD be censored for that Sheli. Perhaps you’d like it if I sailed into Open and suggested that I can’t understand why you feel the need to come off as a overwrought head-case? I’m not going to do that, even if I think it, because it breaks Ron’s Rule 1 and is also destructive balanced and logical argument. If you read more widely and carefully, I have already suggested another forum. quote: Simple then - don’t post poems where people are going to give CRITICAL ANALYSIS. I think the rest of your points have been answered or explained elsewhere. Also, perhaps you could explain how your reply on Tina’s post helped to “advance learning in CA”? M |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: Cold is what is needed Ess. |
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divine chaos Senior Member
since 2006-07-09
Posts 617dancing 'neath the moon |
Moon, quote: You're right, and I do apologize - I should have chosen a less offensive word. I have edited that line out of my previous post. It's terribly difficult for me to admire someone's knowledge, while, at the same time, being so completely taken aback by their attitude towards the people they claim to want to help -- it's mind boggling  quote: Simple question to answer, if you'd asked it because as I said, I write for therapy -- so mostly I -am- an overwrought head-case when writing poetry, :-p but the writing is how I work through it and if it touches one heart, or helps one person to know they're not alone, it's worth it for me to let it be seen. quote: I'd have emailed you privately, but there's no email listed to do such. I responded here where I knew that you'd see it, in the hopes that you might see why you are the recipient of venomous attacks by other users of this forum (which would further -your- learning). I do love how you only pull out the quotes that will make it look like a full on attack, but leave out that I said I admired you for the help you try to give, even if I don't agree with your methods. I have noticed that you've apologized for your barbed words to some that you've critiqued ... and I admire that as well. It takes a big person to admit they were wrong. Even if the thoughts behind the critique are sound, the delivery of those suggestions is a determining factor in what makes one either accept or ignore the help -- and yes, I realize my previous post is my own perfect example of the delivery being lacking, and I'll apologize again for that. I should have cooled off a bit more before writing it. I did also make my suggestion to help "advance learning," i.e., another forum, so that debates like the one that has hijacked this thread would not be necessary. I know that you've suggested it already, but is there some harm in making it known that someone besides you would be in favor of a new forum? Essorant quote: It sounds like a sound idea to me. I do agree with the suggestion of set rules, i.e., number of posts allowed at one time, in a forum such as this - if one posts a slew of poems, but never bothers to read and implement the suggestions made, it does become a waste of time, as well as a source of frustration, for those attempting to help -- and the participation dwindles to nearly nothing. The onslaught of poems posted may also be a result of the dwindling participation, with the poster thinking that perhaps what they wrote wasn't good enough to be helped, so they try posting another and another to garner a response .. turning it into a vicious cycle, and ultimately bringing this debate back around time and time again My suggestions would be: 1. Two separate forums - one for CRITICAL analysis, and one for gentle constructive criticism. 2. Set posting rules for both forums, to allow for working on one poem at a time. 3. Maybe move the more hard hitting CA board into the workshop category to further separate the two, if a second is made? (I know these suggestions have already been made, just raising my hand to say I'm another in favor of them, if you're ticking them off somewhere) 4. People skills lessons for Moon (kidding! I'm just kidding, don't hang me! *grins*) ~Sheli |
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ChristianSpeaks Member
since 2006-05-18
Posts 396Iowa, USA |
CAUTION SLIPPERY SLOPE AHEAD Hey guys- We've done the "he said/she said" thing already. Let's not fall back into the middle elementary banter eqivalent to "Teacher, she hit me!" in this thread again. Breathe, smile. I think the dual CA forum is a great idea. We could have gentle crit board, and then a harder board - it would be like extreme poetry. You would have to sign a waiver say that if you were injured while participating in the CA the board would not be responsible for your injuries or doctor bills. Then people wouldn't be surprised if they were smacked around a bit. I'm game. What do you think Ron? CS |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
I don't speak for Ron but I don't think he will ever create a "brutally honest" forum. Afterall, there are plenty of those already all over the internet. As for a "Gentle Critical Analysis," that really is already available. In everyone's personal profile there is the option to request critique or not. This applies to any forum in PIP. Any poem posted by a poet requesting critique can be analyzed in any forum. Those critiques are expected to be less hard-hitting that what one expects here. What would be the purpose of simply duplicating Open but restricted to only those who request critique? So not only do I not expect to see Ron create another forum, I also fail to see how it would have any worthwhile effect on the problems we are discussing here. Some people post poem after poem without any attempt to comment on others is a true statement. The group figures that out pretty quickly and either reminds the offender or just ignores their poems and they usually go away. That reminder was part of my welcoming to new members in CA. I have been pretty lacking on that recently. I will correct my behavior on that matter. Too often a seriously flawed poem appears in CA, followed shortly by exhuberant, unwarranted praise. These are pretty obvious and I think the praise comes from friends in another forum. I guess I shouldn't speculate as to why they do it. It certainly does nothing to help the poet improve. It does not contribute to the stated goals of CA. And it is irritating to those who sincerely try to critique and help others improve their writing skills as well as to those who post in hopes of actually improving. Unfortunately, I don't see any practical solution within the PIP philosophy. I don't expect to ever see and really don't want to see hard rules for entering CA. I think the members, backed by the moderators, are the best solution for maintaining an improving the quality of CA. We will likely always have new posters who hope to stroke their egos by receiving rave reviews after posting in CA. I started here the same way. I had written a couple of things and felt surely about ready for publication. It didn't take long for that 1999-2000 group of excellent critics mentioned to set me straight on my shortcomings. Today, it seems that we are more likely to just ignore those vanity posters and they go away. Actually, I don't think I was a vanity poster but just uninformed and unaware of my lack of skill. Otherwise, I would have gone away too like most of the others. It doesn't take long to determine who wants to improve and is worth the effort to critique and who is just looking for praise and will never listen to advice. And I'll add one more point here. How many times have we read, after a less than glowing critique, "I only write for myself or for therapy?" But you posted it in CA where critique is expected. That is an oxymoron. If you only write for yourself and don't care what others think, why post here? That is the height of rude IMHO. I won't say how tempting it is to just delete the entire thread every time I see this. But that would be a rule violation. The rest of you can qwuickly learn to just ignore these posters (not writers) but I still have to at least read every post, regardless of how banal I might know it is going to be. Ok, end of rant. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Creating two forums isn't the answer, for a whole bunch of reasons the main one being that you aren't solving the problems you're just creating a whole new set of problems. A new forum requires Moderators for a start; we all pretty much agree that people aren't exactly falling over themselves to be Mods of this Forum. Who the heck would want to moderate what would in effect be a second-class version of this one? Another problem is that you still have to have a mechanism to avoid the unwanted posts in this forum, simply creating another forum isn't going to guarantee that the members are going to post in the place you want them to with the type of posts you want to see. If you have to put the mechanism in place anyway why do we need to create more problems on top of that by creating a second forum with another set of rules? That brings me neatly on to the mechanism itself, I was very careful not to call them rules because rules have a tendency to multiply and turn something fairly simple into a minefield of red tape and confusion. I think the number of poems posted should be regulated, the method of regulation in a perfect world would be automated, the software would only allow one original post per person during an agreed period. Tying the number of critiques to the number of originating posts, as has been suggested, would be nice but if that's likely to drive down the quality of replies if used on its own, if I can post only post a poem after three replies I may be tempted to cut and paste "Nice Poem" three times on any poem at random creating a whole new problem. Which brings me nicely onto the fluff posts issue, unfortunately this can only be dealt with by the introduction of a rule and a fairly rigorous one at that, any post that does not include at least one piece of useful advice should be removed or the poster informed that such posts are unhelpful. This would allow posts such as: Nice poem but the rhyme seemed a little forced I couldn't understand it, it was a little vague I think this would work better in free verse The only problem with such a rule is that it's impossible to write software to enforce it; this has to be done manually by either a moderator or the members themselves. If the moderators take on the role we're going to need more, Pete can't be expected to handle the work on his own. If the Moderators are take on the job I think they should remove the post and email the poster with a set script explaining why it was removed. If the Moderators don't do it I think the members should post an agreed script informing the poster of the rule and asking them to edit the post accordingly, in this way we all police the forum and we all speak with one voice, preferably a polite one. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Grinch I agree two forums is totally out. It doesn’t sort the problem and quite rightly Ron wouldn’t do it. That’s why I dropped it in favour of my two rules. I think you’ve effectively covered those with your ideas which in my view are pretty much spot on. A limit on the number of poems within a set period ought to be easily capable of being incorporated into a software monitoring system as it’s so simple. I thought at first that this might be unfair on people who wanted to post revisions, but I guess these could be posted in the original thread, and anyway there are far too many knee jerk revisions imo. Slowing them up would be good. Of course you’d have to have a one poem per thread rule, if it doesn’t exist already. On critiques (unlike poems) at beginner level especially you CAN have a pretty well mapped out template that novice critics should be STRONGLY encouraged (perhaps compelled) follow. You might have a rule for instance that for the first 20 crits the poster should at the very minimum cover certain set down points. (Sid has recently posted a link to a very good crit template I think). The template and clear instructions and rules need to be permanently posted prominently at the top of the CA board - I think moderators can do “sticky” notices, no? I am probably going to be rather more demanding than most people in what should be expected of new posters as regards critiques. I know people are shy sometimes of commenting on others’ poems but I honestly think: 1 A clear template would give them more confidence. In my experience that reticence to comment often comes because people genuinely have no clue as to where to start. 2 That, despite what Ron seemed to imply in his post above, critiquing and really thinking about another’s poetry is an extremely valuable discipline in learning to write well yourself. Doing the above would hopefully satisfy your other EXCELLENT point that all “senior” members of the board should speak with one voice, and ideally be able to refer newbies to clearly set out guidelines. M |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Pete I have immense sympathy for you. I think what you said, far more politely and calmly than I, is that sometimes you have difficulty reconciling the overall PIP guidelines with what might be expected in a rigorous critical analysis forum. I guess that’s where I came in on this and it’s probably where I’ll go out!! Still, the point is that everything I have said and done has been directed at trying to make small changes which might alleviate that perceived conflict. Ron asked for a definition of the “problem” above. That’s the problem. Whether he accepts that it’s a problem is a different matter of course. Cheers. M PS “Wanderd Soul” vanished. I’d be interested to know if you deleted it? moved it? And why? Request of poster? |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: Thank you. But just to be pedantically accurate about this ANY derogatory word directed at my character rather than at what I said would be out of order IMHO. quote: You obviously don’t know many politicians! Heh. quote: Please don’t patronise Sheli. I’m perfectly well aware of why I’m attacked. I don’t like being attacked. I think some of the attacks broke the “rules”, but then an omelette was never made ... etc etc quote: Geez sarcasm now! Look Sheli you attacked my character I pointed it out to you, you apologised. I said thank you. Let’s just drop it now, ok? quote: I agree. You’ll have to read my comments elsewhere to see exactly where I’m coming from. Negative, harsh, positive, when, how etc. It’s a judgement you make in all the particular circumstances. I’m not gonna dissect coming on for a decade of experience critiquing on the net to try and convince you that most of the time I think I get it right with always the end goal of trying to help someone write publishable quality poetry. I’ve already said I was perhaps harder than I usually am when I entered the forum, but I doubt that you and I will ever agree about the utility of negative critiques and degree. quote: [Removed] Heh. (Er, can I say that here?) (Nope, you can't. And, had you actually said it instead of trying for a lesser euphemism, the software would have answered your question first. Ron)M PS In all that you never answered my question about how your post to Tina’s poem promoted learning in CA? [This message has been edited by Ron (09-22-2006 05:16 PM).] |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: Sorry Pete I missed the significance of this. It encompasses the point I was going to make to Ron when I ran out of time. It’s actually MORE than irritating. I’d argue strongly it’s actually: 1 Damaging to CA’s aims, and 2 Damaging to the poet, and 3 Damaging to the social harmony that Ron seeks to engender in PIP. It damages CA’s aims because as well as making for completely useless posts it frightens off experienced poets looking in from outside who might join. It in fact makes the forum look very silly. It’s damaging to the poet because quite often he/she receives comments that are so widely different as to render the result either very confusing or completely meaningless or both. It damages social harmony because it tends to pit “Open poets” against “CA poets”, it irritates (as you have said) and it actually makes the critics in CA who bother to reply to such a thread potentially look like the villains of the piece and the advice that they try and give seem churlish. Fine thanks for the hard work they put in. M |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Moonbeam quote: I think a template is probably too demanding, offering a critique may not seem a big thing but for some people it could be downright daunting I think as long as a comment contains at least an attempt to offer helpful advice it should be allowed. After all we should be trying to attract new critics as well as new poets. I believe in this regard common sense should prevail, having a caveat that at least some attempt to critique should be included is simple to understand and simple to police and above a reasonable compromise. Has anyone any opinions either way (I don't bite and though moonbeam may bark every now and again I think he's in a good mood ) |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
I agree Grinch. Critique is a skill possibly as difficult to master as poetry. Most of us had no idea how to do it right when we cam here. Obviously some exceptions do apply. Where better to learn than right here where ir is done all the time (well, most of the time). It has always been true in CA the critiques are just as subject to further criticism as an original poem, with the same guidelines and goals. I thinks any comment such as you point out is subject to criticism by other members. We have moved away from that to some extent, probably out of a feeling of futility. Maybe it's time we all got back in that mode. As for Wandered Soul, I moved it to the moderators forum for evaluation of likely suicide content. I expect a resolution, one way or the other, soon. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
I wish you'd stop agreeing with me Pete, my image as a maverick outsider ranting at the world from his own private world is taking a hell of a beating. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
quote: (I just wanted to try the quote thingie.)  I love this thread. Thank you, Ron, for clarifying your objectives for this forum. Your post cleared up a lot of confusion for me. I may even try writing again!  |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
and whoooooooooopeeeeeeeeeeeee the quote thingie worked! yay! and um, Ronnie Baby? Off topic, I know, but I chose to quote you there to point out that you and I are not so far apart in our philosophies.  |
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divine chaos Senior Member
since 2006-07-09
Posts 617dancing 'neath the moon |
Moon -- quote: Learning, for any student, starts with the teacher and their methods, Moon. If the teacher is presenting themselves as being on some lofty pedestal, looking down upon the world in general, ready to smash to pieces any effort that the student makes, more often than not the student will stop trying to reach the seemingly unattainable goal of producing something worthwhile. My apparently badly made point was that if the 'teachers' stop bashing the 'students' over the head, it may better create an atmosphere more conducive to learning. There is no reason that one cannot give constructive criticism without beating the poster into the ground while doing it. I do understand the frustration caused by the ones that make post after post without even an attempt to follow suggestions given (I have an 8 year old, trust me I -know- frustration), but why slam them? Why not just ignore them if you don't feel it worth your time to help - or make one post that says -nicely- "When you have implemented suggestions made to your last attempt, we'll move on" .. or some such? Think of the new ones entering that haven't read years worth of critiques here, the ones that haven't seen that one person has posted 10 gazillion poems and has never even given the smallest suggestion a try. For those new guys coming in, to read a critique that tells the poster "This is complete and utter rubbish and you should scrap it and stop writing" ... well, it might scare them into never asking for help here. Does that promote learning? It is possible to be constructive, and yes -critical- without being offensive and destructive. (lookie there, Moon .. no sarcasm or anything that could be considered patronizing -- I've gone against my whole personality and warped sense of humor just for you ... do you have a Tylenol handy?) ~Sheli |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I think we have some good timber beginning here. These really stick out for me as three very important points brought up: 1. Better regulation of quantity (hopefully automated). 2. A rule to help remove or better minimize "fluff" comments. 3. A template (to be encouraged, not enforced!) so people have an outline or reference to help guide them with writing a critique. I think these three points may be the secret to helping create a much better and more critical enviroment for CA. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Sorry Grinch but I'm afraid I just agreed with you again on another thread. I really don't want to sully your reputation or anything like that. I'll try to be less agreeable next time you post something  Karen, glad to see you got the quote thingie working. Did you get it from Ron's post or from my example? If the latter, I wish you had given me a little credit |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Pete? YOU, dawlin', get the kiss.  howzzat? The best vigilance is an appearance of oblivion yanno. *chuckle* |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Awwww...   |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
[Sorry, made a mistake] |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: Thank you Essorant - perfect. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: Grrrrr I know all about frustration. You aren’t listening to me or reading what I’ve posted before. You’re confusing two different issues here - teaching a willing pupil is one thing, controlling and deciphering the intentions and aspirations of posters to a public critical analysis board on the wild wild internet is quite another. If I can get the permission of one of the people who I’m working with in an online workshop I’ll post an extract here, which will hopefully once and for all convince you that you’re preaching your teaching mantra to someone who was converted long ago. Running a CA board requires a different approach. I’ve already covered elsewhere why you can’t just ignore and often polite suggestions simply don’t work. Sigh - I’ll try again: You’re a teacher in a poetry class. The sun is shining through the classroom window the birds are singing outside and the class are sitting obediently wanting to learn, listening and contributing in a constructive manner. Sure, there are some off-the-wall guys in there, even provocative, but everyone there WANTS to learn. Suddenly ... the door to the class flies open and a punk high on something perhaps flies in, yells a “poem” and stands looking slightly aggressive, or is it shyness? Immediately you have decisions to make. You can’t do nothing - you need to establish where this guy is coming from. Before you can react another door slams open. One you didn’t notice before. And suddenly there are doors all round the room opening and shutting and poems and quick one line throw away comments buzzing the air. You’ve no real game plan to deal with this, your own class is becoming unsettled. Then again some of them try to take matters into their own hands and yell at or remonstrate with the visitors. Some of these newcomers are great talkers, some seem willing to sit with the class, others just pace up and down firing poem after poem - looking expectant but never listening. Funny thing is that all the doors are glass. A professor of literature walks by outside. You gesture frantically to him to come in and help you, but he peers at the melee and simply walks on shaking his head. The frustration builds, you want to be firm, you want to take control, but the head teacher has decreed a regime of absolute freedom for all to do just as they wish at all times. Teaching and learning suddenly go out the window. Your own class, seeing what other people can get away with join the “fun”, and soon it’s not a class at all anymore. You sit back resignedly and watch as the situation crescendoes and then tails off into a rather sad group of confused people with no direction and no longer any will to work to learn. ............ Ok, I did that quickly. The analogy’s not perfect but it’s near. M PS The "teacher" here of course is poor Pete - the mod! |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: I don't think so, moonbeam. The flaw in your analogy is likening this forum with a classroom, when I think, if we stay with your educational metaphor, it's much more like a school building. Personally, I think I'd eliminate all references to formal education entirely and suggest it's much more like a brothel, although money obviously isn't what's being exchanged. The distractions you lament aren't intruding on a classroom of other people, but rather are patrons entering small, empty rooms of their own making. The doors are, indeed, glass, but the glass is frosted and provides only limited visibility. Entering is always a risk, but no one is ever forced to take the risk. They do so of their own choosing. Clearly, in my analogy, there are no formal teachers, though I suppose there are always going to be a few Madams loitering in the halls, just to insure no one is mistreated. At least one of those Madams is hoary (pun fully intended) and rarely leaves the confines of the front door. She's much too old to make it up several flights of stairs to the more interesting rooms. The patrons of the brothel come for many different, sometimes even contradictory, reasons. Fortunately, that's true, too, for the working girls. Some come searching for intimacy and the illusion of love, while others are there for more mundane, no-nonsense exchanges. All, I think, are open to fresh experiences, open to at least the possibility of learning something new. Even if some of them don't know it yet. Matching patron to working girl would be a huge challenge already, but the challenge is exponentially compounded in our little brothel because the patrons are expected to take their turn wandering the rooms and most of the working girls are equally likely to be patrons at some point. It's a true ménage à foule. The only system that seems to work even reasonably well is trial and error. The girls choose a room based on what little they can see through the frosted glass, then quietly enter to see who's inside. If they like what they see and feel they can contribute, they're welcome to stay. If not, they're expected to tip-toe out and move on to the next room. There's plenty of rooms, although admittedly, not always plenty of variety. Sadly, some girls find too little of what they seek, or become frustrated by seeing too much of what they don't seek, and decide to stop visiting, moving on to brothels where the clientele more closely meets their own needs. Similarly, some few patrons find themselves sitting in interminably empty rooms and they, too, move on. The Madams know the system isn't perfect, so they're willing to entertain change. Some change. They can't afford to rebuild the house (it's a very old house), but will accept some minor renovations. They admit it would be nice if the underage boy scouts and bored housewives would stop wandering into rooms oblivious to where they are, and think that can probably be managed (if not ever eliminated). They're willing to try. What the Madams won't do is take down the big sign over the front door that says, "No S&M." |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Ron My bad. I thought that might happen. I was following up specifically on Sheli's focus on how to teach and things kind of progressed in a disorderly fashion from there. When I start to write like that it means I need to write a poem! Trying to use analogies quickly to make specific points among a load of poets never works anyway - all it does is open pandora's box as everyone's imagination gets going. I actually agree with most of YOUR parallels too but they are not necessarily incompatible with mine. It’s just that my effort was too narrow. Did you have any thoughts on Essorant’s summary? quote: M PS No “S & M”? Omg! That rules out Serenity then! Heh. |
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divine chaos Senior Member
since 2006-07-09
Posts 617dancing 'neath the moon |
Madam Ron *grins* I love your analogy! I hope you don't ever hang that "No S&M" sign Essorant did have some sound suggestions for upgrading the cat house to a proper brothel, as Moonbeam pointed out (Is it wrong that I love your analogy so much, Ron? ... maybe it's from years of people calling me Mistress, who knows? *grins*) Moonbeam, As frightening as it may sound, it would seem that, though we're coming at this debate from different sides, we do mostly agree. Perhaps the frustration on both sides is merely due to personality differences. I -can- ignore the "underage boyscouts and housewives" wandering through Madam Ron's brothel while you want to keep them out of a specific room entirely, because the other "working girls" are too distracted by them I get that, I do -- my argument has never been against keeping them out, only the way in which you were trying to do it, because that too becomes a distraction (not to mention a little scary) for both the current and potential new "working girls" within that room. So, maybe we can agree to disagree on which whip is the best size to wield, and work together with everyone to find a happy medium?*fluffy hugs!* ('cause I know how you love fluff) Ya know, I kinda like you -- even if I am an overwrought headcase (or maybe because I am, hehe) :p ~Sheli |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: I should jolly well hope you do like me. After all I am a very loveable jackass as many will testify! |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
quote: I was under the impression that the actual “room” being addressed within this particular thread had only one designer and builder. The best any of the rest of us can ever really hope to contribute are pleasingly defined lines and splashes of paint—hopefully composed within an enhancive frame. quote: The only real “working girl” I’ve seen around here on a daily basis has been, Pete. Frankly, he seems a bit worn out at times. quote: You give everyone too much credit here, (no pun intended). There are also those who frequent such establishments to simply watch, while still others want nothing more than to let someone else take control of their “instrument” and “play” it for them. quote: Thanks for finally defining what you expect this site to be, Ron. I was obviously wrong in stating that you wish only to encourage the fluff laden posts here. I was obviously delusional in hoping you were inclined to encourage the “teachers” within your "frosted-glass-house". Further, I had prejudged you in postulating at one time that you desired your own little utopia within CA—when all along it was simply a brothel. I’m now convinced by the very premise of this latest reply of yours that you are intent on encouraging any and all masturbatory offerings as well—considering your post was nothing more than one more self-gratifying piece which did nothing but feed the prurient interests of your own personal, apple-polishing groupies. I expect they will all start appearing in short order, to lay down their freshly polished tokens to the head madam. (puns not necessarily, though more than likely, intended) If you must carp: Carpe diem! ICSoria My Poetry Forum |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Yike! Er, Sid, the script is going wrong here - I am meant to be Beelzebub. M |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Sid As you said to moonbeam, lighten up! |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Just wanted to keep Essorant's suggestions to the fore: quote: |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
So far, at the suggestion of Ron, we've outlined some problems; Essorant seems to have provided some solutions however these need to be expanded to define the method by which each solution can be delivered. Definitions like the ones below: Poems should be limited to one per day, unfortunately that would require a software change. Posts that don't contain an element of critique should be removed by the moderators, unfortunately that would require at least one perhaps two additional moderators. A template or guide should be available via a link on every page, unfortunately that would require the creation of a template (using an existing source raises copyright issues and isn't likely to be exactly what we need). Has anyone any suggestions? |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: Grinch I have suggestions - but they need some work and before I invest any time into it I'd really like to hear from Ron that there is at least a reasonable prospect that he'll go along with this; subject to seeing the suggestions of course. Ron? M |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Maybe, but we haven't really agreed on them. In the final paragraph of this post, Sid seems to define the problem as "you (meaning me) encourage only the fluff laden posts." I don't see that as usefully defining a problem, but more importantly, I don't see it as true. It should be clear to even a casual observer that I encourage ALL posts/poems (within our Guidelines), so the word "only" is out of place. In this post, Moonbeam implied the problem was "reconciling the overall PIP guidelines with what might be expected in a rigorous critical analysis forum." Again, I think that's too vague to be a useful definition of a problem, although I do think it touches on an important issue that might be a stumbling block for agreement (expectations are unlikely to be the same for everyone). In this post, Grinch summarizes Moonbeam and, perhaps, comes the closest to actually trying to define the problem. Unfortunately, "the" problem is now summarized as two distinct and different problems, and neither of those addresses the continuing complaints about "bad poetry" that began this thread. Still, let's explore those two issues more directly in hopes we can perhaps move beyond them to a better definition of "the" problem. quote: This is certainly true, but it isn't just true of CA. It's true of all forums, and not just at pipTalk, but in one sense or another, all forums across the Internet. There are always people who take and give nothing in return. I've been, and continue to be, active in a lot of other communities besides this one, and I even Moderate and Administer a couple of web development forums, and in over ten years of watching, I've yet to see this problem solved by anyone. I don't think it has a solution, not on the Internet and, indeed, not in real life. The takers will never go away. My own personal answer to the problem has always been to try to set an example for the takers and then simply ignore them. I will not allow their selfishness to make me selfish in return, nor will I go through life feeling frustrated because I can't change them. The Serenity Prayer immediately comes to mind. quote: I suspect this "problem" is an aspect of the as yet undefined problem, in that it is either caused by "bad poetry" finding its way into CA or is perhaps caused by the people who bring in said poetry. We have to determine, I think, whether it's a problem or just a symptom. It does, however, raise another issue that will eventually have to be addressed. Is it even possible for all of us to agree on what constitutes "useful information?" *** Finally, while I think it's premature to consider answers to undefined problems, I'm going to quickly give some feedback on Essorant's summary (if only because Moonbeam should be reward for her persistence ).quote: Assuming that is referencing poetry, not posts, we already have software-regulated control on a forum-wide basis. People can post no more than three poems a day. I fought against this change for years, but finally surrendered. I still believe that regulating courtesy is both impossible and defeats the whole purpose of courtesy, and wish we could have found another way. Be that as it may, however, it would be extremely difficult to introduce more granularity to our existing software without slowing the system to an unacceptable crawl. Our database simply doesn't support tying originating post counts to specific forums. quote: I don't much like rules in general, and I especially don't like rules that are too subjective, but I recognize they are sometimes necessary. How are we going to define this to make it work, and even more importantly, how are we going to consistently enforce it? A rule that isn't (or can't be) enforced simply tells people that it's okay to break the rules. quote: I agree in principle, but with a couple of caveats. Unless everyone is ready to accept "something is better than nothing" I question whether we'll ever be able to reach an agreement on what constitutes a good critique. Just as importantly, I think it's vital to remember what anyone involved in scientific surveys already knows: The answer is always going to be colored by the context of the question. How, when, where, and who you ask is just as important as what you ask. A template can probably help shape positive feedback, but it inevitably is also going to limit feedback. I think there is a very real danger that everyone's critiques will all begin to look the same. Beyond establishing a template, there still exists the problem of getting people to read it. Everyone here should go through the first few steps of registering a new username (you don't have to finish) just so you can see the lengths I've gone to in hopes of getting people to read our (incredibly simplified!) rules. Many still don't. You can lead a horse to water, but there's often no point in it unless you intend to drown the poor brute. However, while we are considering templates, I'd like to throw another link into the ring, one I found and liked (mostly) several years ago. How to give and receive criticism by Scott Berkun. *** Again, before rules and templates, we need to exactly define THE problem. I think I could do that, and I might even have some suggestions on how to partially solve it, but I would much prefer it if others here reached their own conclusions. After all, isn't that, in large part, what a Critical Analysis forum should be doing? |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Thanks again Ron for investing your time in this. Ron said: quote: Let’s look at what Grinch said: quote: Actually Ron when you say: quote: I think you’re wrong. Or maybe not so much wrong as making a bit of an issue of something that isn’t an issue. All of the above are simply statements of different facets of the same problem or its roots. Which is quite simply that the standard of poetry, critique and learning in CA is at best indifferent. If you’re happy with that state of affairs then clearly there isn’t a problem, because as owner of the site, only you ultimately define problems. (As an aside here I see nothing incompatible as between Sid complaining about fluff laden posts, me, rather grandiosely, referring to clashes of ethos, and Grinch’s two facets). So, assuming that you agree at least in part that the problem as stated by me above actually exists, let’s now look briefly at those FACETS of the problem that Grinch mentions and that you address: quote: quote: In the normal course of life, or in a forum dedicated to mirroring the “normal course of life”, I’d agree with you Ron. In fact as a guiding philosophy I’d agree with you period. However, I know I keep on banging on about this, but I’ll repeat again that in a public internet CA forum you can’t allow this problem to develop if you want to meet the aspirations of good poetry, good debate and good learning. I’ve already set out time and time again why this is so. It’s also my personal experience over several years and, I’d submit, evidenced by this forum. It’s surely not selfish to, perhaps gently, point out to someone that they aren’t contributing and aren’t posting within the rules and then to move their contribution to a more appropriate forum. There’s no need to delete the poem(s) at all, simply move them expeditiously to Open with a standard polite note explaining why. Moreover I’d be the first to agree that it’s pointless to get worked up over not being able to change people. With you there totally. quote: quote: It’s both. It’s a symptom of a regime that allows people to post anything whatsoever. Let’s face it people are busy and sometimes lazy - it’s so darned easy to just make a “nice comment” - it makes you look good and makes the poster happy. The situation feeds on itself. People see other people getting away with it and soon the symptom becomes a sub-problem within the main problem if you see what I mean. Hey, this is semantics. Stop it Moonbeam ::smacks hand:: quote: No, not precisely, of course not. If it were, CA probably wouldn’t exist at all. Where’s the fun in agreeing! But, being sensible, it’s possible to agree broad parameters. ....................................... Essorant’s suggestions. Quickly here because I need a coffee: Ron you seem to be saying that you MIGHT be reconciled to some form of post count monitoring and some form of “fluff” control (my Gran used to have a little gadget that she would run over sweaters to remove the wooly balls, heh), BUT you see obstacles regarding definition and enforcement. Enforcement simply needs more woman/manpower and quick solutions. On definition, I entirely understand your, er, paran ... I mean concern! I mean, if you have people like me and Sid floating round the forum who knows how high we might try to set the bar. But seriously, I think this is less scary than you might imagine. After all you have total control of the site so you can quickly clamp down on anything you don’t like. I think it’s a case of “suck it-and-see” (I really wish you hadn’t used that brothel metaphor). The best parallel I can think of is the legal world. You have Statute to set out broadish principles, but it never covers every situation, which is where Case law comes in. In theory the more test cases pass through the mods the better the system should get. Above all Ron remember that frustration and uncertainly are major contributors to bad behaviour. You might not be a great fan of rules, but sometimes they are necessary to obviate those. The critique template would solve a lot of the above problems I think especially if it was linked to an absolute requirement to post three critiques either before any poem or at the very least before the second poem. By definition such a rule would slow up and probably stop many multiple poem posters. Once again, on breach of the rule, poems would simply be transferred to Open. quote: I think we need to get away from the idea that the main reason for the “template” is to shape debate, or, in itself, add to learning. It’s a very simple tool to help identify the aspirations of new posters. To gather information quickly to enable those difficult judgements, referred to above, to be made, and to start to build “case law”. Above all it mustn’t be an academically based or pretentious model. God knows I don’t want to discourage ANYONE from learning about poetry. It’s got to be simple lay guidelines that give people new to critiquing some idea of how to start. It’s meant to HELP them, but in attempting to help it will also determine those people who can’t be bothered or, as you say, simply won’t read the instructions. Again, no-one I hope, is suggesting that posts should be moved after one mistake, or maybe even two, but if the offence is persistent then I think it would be fairly clear what the course of action should be. And of course there is no question of critiques looking the same. After an active month in the forum any newbie will develop her own style and meet the template by default. As for experienced critics coming in from new, it goes without saying that they will comply by default in any case whatever their style. Incidentally I’m not suggesting that a new poster should be somehow FORCED to comment on every aspect the template mentions. It may be that just a single acute observation in relation to the sound of a single passage in the poem would show that the reader had read and thought about the poem in depth. THAT is what we’re after here. Not some kind of regimented formulaic: “You WILL comment on meter, tone, sound, line breaks, structure, syntax, diction, meaning, grammar, spelling, punctuation, scope, pace, line length etc etc and if you miss any of them you will be instantly expelled!” Not that at all! And actually, because of the fact that the template would be SO accessible, contrary to Essorant’s note, I think that, on reflection, it should be mandatory for the first few critiques. quote: I know this is problematic but again it’s part of the way of separating the sheep. A mod will have to tell them to read it. Once, twice - then all further fluff posts get deleted with a polite note asking them to read and comply with the guidelines. And while I’m on this Ron, sorry to raise it again, but I was wondering how most people come into PIP? If it’s straight into the forums that’s fine. But if they enter via the main site with the “poetry from the heart” statement and no reference to CA at all I honestly think that might dissuade some people from going further. You may have the stats on this? Would it be possible, say, to put a fairly prominent notice on the main site indicating that there IS a place on the boards where discussion of the CRAFT is encouraged? Or some such. quote: I think this is (mostly) great. It’s far too “wide” of course to use as our template, but as a guiding principle I think it’s good. When I’m critting (sorry Ron!), as opposed to, er, hinting that someone is being a little rude!, I try to follow Berkun’s advice I hope. M [This message has been edited by moonbeam (09-24-2006 08:03 AM).] |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
A quick stab at some draft guidelines. ...................................... Why critique a poem? To help the poet! In commenting on a poem you are trying to help the writer decide whether he/she has succeeded in what he/she set out to do in the poem. It’s therefore important not only to say whether you like or dislike something but also to say specifically WHY. However, sometimes it’s not always easy for people doing their first critiques to identify precisely WHY they like or dislike a poem, so below are some elements of poems that you might like to think about together with suggestions that you should follow for your first few critiques: 1 Read the poem aloud several times, at least three, and try and focus on what you thing the overall message or meaning is. Write this down as your “Poem Summary” 2 Don’t just type your message straight into the reply window. Preferably print out the poem and carry it with you for a few hours (or even days!), making annotations as ideas about it come to you. In other words - DON’T RUSH! 3 Now, bearing in mind your “Poem Summary”, work through the poem starting to try to identify the individual elements of the piece that stand out for you. You could think about: a. Sound, Syntax and Diction - In reading the poem aloud hopefully you will have formed some idea of whether you like the way it sounds. How easily it trips off the tongue. Are the sentences awkwardly or elegantly constructed (syntax). Do the individual words used (diction) seem to “fit”. b. Voice - Quite often poems have a specific speaker or “voice”. It may be an old man from Burma or a child or no specific person, just a genderless voice, yet still one which is important to the poem. Listen for the “voice” and see if you think it is convincing in the context of your Poem Summary. c. Action - Think about the action in the poem. Is it clear to you what’s happening, and how it’s happening. d. Things! - This may seem like an odd heading, but poems can often be a bit like paintings. It’s quite a rare poem that is successful by being vague, so look for clear descriptions of objects and people. Look for clear IMAGES. Beware abstract concepts. If someone says in a poem, “I loved him”, look to see if the poet is showing you a PARTICULAR KIND of “love”. If he/she isn’t, then ask yourself if that’s good enough for you in the context of the poem. e. Metaphors and similes - See if you can identify any places where a poet is saying such and such is “like” something else e.g. “She was like a beautiful swan” or “He’s tall as a beanstalk”. Those are similes. Tell the poet if they work for you or not. Metaphor can be an even stronger way to show characteristics; the poet transfers the actual identity of something on to something else, as in: “The surface of the water was slate”. Obviously the water isn’t real slate, but by stating it like that the poet immediately transfers a picture of the water to the reader. Does that work for you? Let the poet know. f. Lines - Look at the way the poet has arranged the lines of the poem. Short lines usually slow up reading speed, long lines often speed it up. Is that working? What about the places that the lines break onto the next line. You may think that lines that keep ending on “weak” words like “a” and “but” disrupt the poem, but then again there may be good reasons for it. Think about it in context. g. Conciseness - Poems often benefit from cutting down the word count. If there are lots of “filler” words such as “the”, “a”, and “because” for example it may be that some can be removed with no loss of meaning. Look out for this. h. Cliches - You will often hear people saying that a poem is no good because it contains clichés. Clichés are phrases or words which have been used so often that there is a danger that they have lost their original force or meaning. There are of course times when it’s appropriate to use a well known phrase, and probably, unless the poem is overwhelmed with clichés, you’ll be able to find more interesting, but perhaps less obvious, problems with the poem. Remember, anyone can spot a cliché, but it takes a close and observant reader to pick out the more subtle problems with a poem. 4 Now write out your critique starting with your Poem Summary - what you think the poem is about. Go on to say whether you think that the poet has succeeded in your opinion in achieving what you think he/she set out to do. Then the important part: say WHY you liked or disliked it, or part of it, and pick out at least one or two of the headings (a-h) above to comment on or support your statements. If you don’t understand bits of the poem then ASK the poet what was intended. 5 ABOVE ALL be absolutely honest. People in this forum want the truth about their poems. If you like something, say so, but equally, if you find an aspect that really doesn’t work for you, you should point this out too. It is not helpful to be harsh or cruel, but saying you don’t like something will assist a poet in improving a poem just as much as making positive comments. Finally, remember that your comments are just your opinion. Not one of us here knows everything - we are all here to help each other learn. Reading and commenting on other people’s poetry can help you write better too, so have fun and good luck! |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
quote: I’m willing to agree that it’s out of place. If you’re willing to go back a little further to grasp what originally inspired this comment and what the comment means today: This response is based on points made in previous threads how I was simply put off by the often clichéd responses to a poorly constructed and equally clichéd poem. Your rule for “Appropriate Forums” offers a guide in encouraging folks to use the forum most appropriate for the tone of their work.” But it is only a basic guide. The words encompass a lot. I feel any first-time visitor to PIP should be able to differentiate between CA and Open as easily as with any other forum As it stands, CA is at times no better than many common open forums on so many sites, given the amount of insincere commentary, vapid responses and gratuitous flattery One of my earliest arguments about this place had to do with allowing critics the freedom to call a really bad poem, A BAD POEM. Or at the very least in need of a lot more work before being posted on CA. You yourself in answering one of my earliest comments admitted to being able to recognize such a poem. What’s wrong with such a comment when it can be proven logically point by point? No one’s asking for a license to go on Open and begin critiquing the same way. Nor to have the right to attack anyone personally which you’ve clearly forbidden in your rules. My point, once again, is simply that, It’s disingenuous to attempt to answer every poem in a positive way. While many poems show promise and others may display a hopeful line or two, all too many others are just terribly written and one should be allowed to say so in critique, as long as it’s done in a straightforward, non-condescending manner with facts to back it up—always backing it up. This really is possible. Sure we could ignore them, but all too often this simply spawns more of the same, and causes the standards to fall. Regarding one suggestion offered; I feel there is no need for added software when a simple Sticky Post or two explaining a few directly worded standards in the Template would suffice. BTW, Ron, thanks for your personal concern in this matter. Sid |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
quote: This is a key point. Many of us will admit to being strong on some forms while weak on others. I would freely admit to being less strong on free verse than fixed form, but that doesn’t exclude me from critiquing a particular use of metaphor, simile, punctuation, sytax, etc. We should each be able to contribute according to our particular—if not, all encompassing— abilities. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Moonbeam There may not be too many changes we need to make to that template. That is an excellent beginning. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
It's rather longer than I thought it would be Ess and also more of a Guideline than a template. But there ya go. And ty for the vote of confidence. M |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
That is true. Perhaps some others may help better this. Should we add something about rhyme and meter? |
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divine chaos Senior Member
since 2006-07-09
Posts 617dancing 'neath the moon |
I think Moon did a great job on the guidelines, and the suggestion of a sticky post (from Sid?) to keep them visible is also good. Having something like this readily available would let people know that these are some of the areas that should be commented on, and that they can pick one or mix and match, whatever they are comfortable with. It may also encourage those who, like me, are -not- experts, by any stretch of the imagination, in the technicalese of poetry, but can hear the clunky bits that flaw the lyrical flow, to bring helpful suggestions to the table as well, without feeling that their lack of expertise should keep them silent. ~Sheli PS: I know, Moon, flow is a bad word, but I can't help myself! |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Flow is so universally used in the sense that you used it above that, even though it may not be technically correct, I suspect we all understand and appreciate what you meant. I wouldn't worry too much over a substitute. |
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