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The Church Under the Streetlight
| Critical Analysis #2 |
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The Church Under the Streetlight |
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yv Senior Member
since 2003-05-30
Posts 574 |
So... Under my porch Swings your savoir faire You stand legs opened To whatever Silver dollar rolls your way Walk with a stutter and a Dip in your hip you Grab at the lights in Complete yellow-stained darkness The lamp is your crusader The street your blazing saddle Streetlight serpentine Sex-stained imperfections of Your crawling flesh Yet You still stand Bowing to the bulb-ous King of Nickel and Dime Juke Joints and Fatties rolled on Your tip’s dashboard Under my porch Thighs a mile wide Breasts sky high With the wine-stamped breath of A night of $20 merriment and Your business card Tattooed to the Porcelain nightlight Your sanctuary and Homemade temple of Nightly worship Waiting for the next Late night Lonelies to Bring forth their Tithes and offerings Yv~Seeing eternal Sunshine Still shrouded in blinding Darkness [This message has been edited by yv (10-01-2005 03:27 AM).] |
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| © Copyright 2005 Camiele - All Rights Reserved | |||
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
I basically scanned this as two complete stanzas with an ending quatrain. The single word, "So", at the beginning is purposeful, in that it brings the reader slowly into the rest of the piece, the next line is two feet, followed by a three foot line, from there the reader is propelled along on a sort of roller-coaster cadence with uneven dips and peaks, but flowing relatively smoothly nonetheless. The remainder of the stanza could have been written in paragraph form and not lost anything. By the time you come to, what I see as the second stanza, the word, "Yet" brings you to a sudden stop again. Again a two beat line followed by a three. Then you're propelled once again, until slowed at the final quatrain, which like a sonnet, is somewhat epigrammatic. I’m not sure how much of this was intentional, but it works--for me anyway.I personally get so caught up in such metric flow at times, that I tend to overlook other problems, i.e. "Walk with a stutter," is a borrowed phrase and probably should be in quotes. I could be wrong though. It may be just another hackneyed term that I’m unfamiliar with. I happened to see it on an MP3 title after Googling it. The various clichés and hyperboles: In my opinion though, these simply help to reinforce the cheap setting for the, "$20...business" in question--being “spoken,” like so many colorful Southern conversations that I've heard before. Perhaps someone else would like to nit-pick the form or structure. Personally, other than to close the spaces in what I see as the first stanza, I’d leave this one alone. But that’s just me and I’ve been known to have quirky tastes at times. Sid If you must carp: Carpe diem! ICSoria My poetry forum. |
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yv Senior Member
since 2003-05-30
Posts 574 |
Thank you for your critique...I had no idea that "Walk with a Stutter" was actually a title or any sort of phrase...it just came to me. That's very interesting...no matter. Thank you again! Yv~Seeing eternal Sunshine |
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Marge Tindal 
since 1999-11-06
Posts 42384Florida's Foreverly Shores |
Camiele~ You already know that I like everything about this piece~ You took a subject matter and made it come alive with metaphorical imagery for me~ As I told you earlier, I'm not a 'critiquer' ... but I do know talent when I read it ... and you've got it ! That you had the foresight to agree to place it here tells me that you want to learn even more~ There are some fine people here who will help you do just that~ It will be rewarding to watch your poetic progression~ *Huglets*  ~*Marge*~ ~*No matter what I search for ... |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
Yv, I really liked the phrase as well. It really adds to the piece. The only reason I ever Google anyone's write before a critique, is because a phrase stood out from the rest. I just like to make sure I'm not going to give someone a critique, only to find out the whole thing was plagiarized. This was the only example I could find of it though and I began wondering if it may not be a phrase common with gen-X’ers, (or whatever letter we’re on now). Maybe I should have asked my son. Anyway, thanks for posting. Sid If you must carp: Carpe diem! ICSoria My poetry forum. |
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yv Senior Member
since 2003-05-30
Posts 574 |
I truly appreciate your critiques...I am all about bettering my craft...thank you again! Yv~Seeing eternal Sunshine |
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CrAzI_bAbI_cHiKa Member
since 2003-07-16
Posts 248 |
I really, really liked this, but this post is actually more to say Happy Birthday to you. I dont usually do this, but my birthday was yesterday as well, and i like to pass along the happiness. i hope your day was better than mine was(my wallet got stolen  )I really liked this entire piece...and i agree with you, Walk with a Stutter isn't anything I've ever heard of either, I like it though. I'll keep an eye out for more of your poetry, and I'm sorry I'm not in a more indepth-critiquing mode tonight... happy bday again(a day late) <3Ker I might have messy hair, runny makeup and a tear-steaked face, but at least I know I have loved. |
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yv Senior Member
since 2003-05-30
Posts 574 |
Well...thank you! I appreciate the b~day wisdhes...belated or not it's the thought that counts! I'm sorry your special day wasn't as good as you wanted it to be...mine started as a minor disaster...but ended pretty well. I hope you found your wallet...and thanks for reading my poem! Yv~Seeing eternal Sunshine |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
I like this. My only suggestions are: I think that possibly not having every line capitalized might lend to what seems like a harsh scene and a modern setting- to me, the capitalization of every line is more traditional, whereas minimal and/or purposeful capitalization is more modern and might fit the topic and language better. JMO. The phrase "late night Lonelies" I think (sorry, my topic review won't load) seems a little too cutesy to me for this poem, but then again tha might just be my personal bias/reaction. It just stuck out to me like it didn't quite fit with the rest of the poem. Hope this helped. |
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yv Senior Member
since 2003-05-30
Posts 574 |
Thank you for your comments hush. About the caps...that's just how I always write...I need to find a different formula...but...what can ya do? As for the "late night lonies..." I'd never actually thought about it that way...thanks for the insight! Yv~Seeing eternal Sunshine |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
This seemed somewhat ignorantly farfetched to me. What is the virtue in trying to liken prostitution to church? Why is prostitution like a church? It seems the reader here is just to accept a provoking idea as if it is based on something that is casual and obvious. But I failed to find out what is so casual and obvious or the strength to make it a worthy or poetic suggestion. |
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Marge Tindal
since 1999-11-06
Posts 42384Florida's Foreverly Shores |
Essorant~ I find your comment to be quite rude~ quote: If you want to state that it is poetically farfetched ... fine ... but don't insult the writers or the readers here with your rudeness. I find the metaphor of the church and the prostitute to be quite believable. This writer seeks critique to grow in her writing ... she's gotten some helpful critique from the others here. If you don't buy into the subject matter, so be it ... but let's extend all writers some courtesy please. [This message has been edited by Marge Tindal (11-05-2005 02:03 PM).] |
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yv Senior Member
since 2003-05-30
Posts 574 |
Thank you for your help Madame Marge...but I don't mind defending my work to someone! I made the symbolism of a church simply because it's the same conscious idea of paying tithes and offerings to get a result from some entity {as is noted in the last stanza of the poem}. Also...the persona's sanctuary...her life...the way in which she is able to live her life...is under this streetlight...waiting for her clock to start. As far as ignorantly farfetched...explain to me exactly what was so ignorant about my piece...other than the fact that I tried to redeem an act that many would crucify by showing the nobility in living one's life? Not only are you completely off base in your so-called "critique" of my poem...your inference that the reader is just blindly following my work based on...I suppose a flowery idea...makes a mockery of the subject matter and the readers themselves. Whether you get it or not is your business...and that's fine. I suppose my real problem here is the fact that you completely avoided making any sort of critique. So my question is if my piece is so "ignorant" why did you take so much time out of your busy schedule to talk about it? Is that what you do...you go into critiquing boards to tear down another's work because you don't like it...or do you just not take the time to actually read it and understand it? What is your basis for anything that you say...is your work so profound that you can take someone else's and...I suppose...put it on blast? Do you just go around doing what you call "critiquing" in order to get some attention for yourself? I'm really interested in knowing what it is that you wanted to prove by talking about my poem. As far as your “farfetched” assumptions about my piece…I think you failed to note that this board is for constructive criticism…which you neglected entirely to make. What gives you any authority to say what is a “poetic suggestion” or not? Do you make the rules for how poetry works…or do you liken yourself to someone who has every right in the world to misjudge someone else’s work? My dear Essorant…I believe that makes you dangerously close to being arrogant. But…I suppose I am to accept everyone’s opinion of my work. Not everybody is going to like it and that’s fine. However…the next time you feel like posting a “critique” on this board…make gravely sure that a critique is exactly what it is…also…try to find someone who can’t go heels with you and isn’t afraid to defend his/her work. OKay. Have a fine and wonderful day…and thank you for your…er…response. Yv~Seeing eternal Sunshine |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Sorry Marge but I didn't see that as rude or personal at all. It is simply an honest statement of opinion although a negative one. Without expressing my own opinion, I can still understand why Ess may have a problem with the metaphor. Some may like the write and some may not. And it's not necessary (and not necessarily productive) to defend our writing. No matter how vigorously one may do so, it is unlikely to change the opinion of any critic, whether positive or negative. Of course, there is nothing wrong with defending it either.  We just take each comment for what it is worth, in our own humble opinion, and treat it appropriately. Pete |
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Marge Tindal
since 1999-11-06
Posts 42384Florida's Foreverly Shores |
Camiele~  You're right sweetie ... you are not only a dynamic writer ... you can sure-fire hold your own ... and come out a WINNER in both respects~ I'm so proud of you for showing more maturity than some others~ ***edited by Marge*** Pete seems to think I was rude to personally attack Essorant's maturity ... so bowing to his long-standing expertise on the subject, I have willingly removed my original comment ... (Thank you for pointing it out to me, Pete) I am learning to 'listen' ... and temper my thoughts~  Let me just say, Camiele, I'm SO proud of YOU for the maturity you've shown and continue to show~ You rock, poetess~ *Huglets* ~*Marge*~ [This message has been edited by Marge Tindal (11-06-2005 11:22 AM).] |
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yv Senior Member
since 2003-05-30
Posts 574 |
Not a Poet...I understand that what this person was saying was an opinion...and believe me...that's completely okay! But when someone invites him/herself into a critiquing board and actually neglects to do so without having anything constructive to say...that's a problem. I...on the other hand...believe a writer has ever right to defend his/her work...and should defend 'til the last breath. I think it's completely necessary to defend what’s yours…no one else in this world is going to. Whether one likes the metaphor…gets the metaphor…or not…I have the right to defend what I got out of it. Has nothing to do with liking something. If it’s so fine and dandy for we as poets to accept opinions…I believe we have just as much right and more to defend why we did what we did. I don’t have to change anyone’s opinions…but I do want to explain why I did what I did…just so that that person may gain an understanding. And if they still don’t get it…or refuse to…I’ve at least given him/her a reason with some foundation to like it or dislike it. So it’s all well and good for someone to want to express an opinion. I’ll stand by that and defend that all day and all night. My cause in life is to defend…‘til the death someone’s right to express an opinion. But if I’m not allowed to defend myself…then I wonder how it’s fair for someone else to bring me down? And…I did notice you said it’s not a bad idea to defend our opinions…but almost as a side comment…and I took that for all it was worth…in my humble opinion. So…I took his personal opinion and treated it as appropriately as I knew how…first and foremost with the intention of explaining and answering some of the “questions” he seemed to have…but without apologizing for anything I did and without feeling sad that someone didn’t like my work…always with the thought of explaining my work and allowing his opinions to be his opinions…but now he’s got something to base them on. So there we go! And again...Madame Marge...thank you always for your support and kindess. Thank you Not a Poet for your response as well. All opinions are more than welcome...but what I asked for was a critique...that's all my position is at the moment. Yv~Seeing eternal Sunshine Still shrouded in blinding Darkness [This message has been edited by yv (11-06-2005 12:46 AM).] |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Sorry for causing a misunderstanding, yv. By "defending" I was referring to your opening statement above. Of course you were not actually defending but explaining. As you said, you are perfectly right in doing so. Just don't expect it to always make a difference. It is not important that everyone in the forum likes everything anyone writes. That is not likely to happen anyway. What is important is that we all try to contribute to the forum, in both original writing and in critique. Many of those critiques will be positive and many will be negative. It would be ideal if they all were constructive but sometimes a person just can't find anything constructive to say. Still though, a critique that simply states dissatisfaction with certain elements or even the whole thing can be useful. Finally, I don't want to start a fight here because I don't think anyone has been offended or should have been but just express another "opinion." quote: This is much closer to a personal remark than Essorant's was. |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
I have to add that Pete is spot on, on every point. Yy, The very title of this forum suggests criticism, but not even in the sub-heading does it imply “constructive,” which at best, is subjective anyway. The response here: quote: was no more constructive than was Essorant’s. For you responded in your own condescending manner. Yet, each was a critique of the other and that’s what adds to the compelling format of the board. The fact is I myself, was at first inclined, to echo Ess’s opinion. If you’ll re-read my critique, you’ll find that I never stated agreement with the basic premise of your piece--in fact, it happens to conflict with my own ideas of faith and religion. I simply happened to see a few things within it worth “criticizing” positively, if you will. You could easily confirm that I’m not otherwise so kind, with similar use of clichés in a piece--but they seemed to add to this particular one--I’m even less patient with those who offer gratuitously patronizing comments on this forum But, Ess did give an opinion, which is the very thing that should continue to be encouraged on these forums.. If you must carp: Carpe diem! ICSoria My poetry forum. |
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yv Senior Member
since 2003-05-30
Posts 574 |
Thank you Cynics and Not a Poet {again for your comment}. But...I never once alluded to the idea that anyone had to like my piece...or understand why I used the metaphor...that is why I explained myself. Even if one doesn't like it...that's fine...but I asked for constructive criticism...something that I could grasp onto to help my writing further...that's all I am trying to say. And Cynics...I realize that some of my response back to Essorant may have been a bit scathing...but while I write it may begin emotional...but will always end with something constructive...for that...I apologize...that's just the way I am. I understand what all of you are saying...my only problem is that I didn't get anything constructive in Essorant's response...that's my only problem. As I've said many times...I will defend 'til my dying days someone's right to express his/her opinion...I just wanted something deeper than that...something that would actually help me...that's all. Yv~Seeing eternal Sunshine Still shrouded in blinding Darkness |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Hello yv. quote: Read this with interest..and will just posit a thought to ponder. Having 'known' Ess through these boards for sometime now I'd be willing to bet that, as far as Ess is concerned, that comment was meant to be constructive. In Ess's own way. Dare I say it, even when we don't get what we want out of someone's post/comment it doesn't make it any less valid.  As for your poem: for the most part I like the use of your language, although I think in some places it's a little overdone - like you're trying to hound your imagery instead of letting it speak itself. The abundance of initial capitals has a stultifying effect - and heightens the overdone feeling. I really believe that this poem needs to relax. Breathe. I like that you've explored a concept with thought, and the poem itself is convincing in its passion. Cheers K |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
While we could certainly deconstruct Essorant's post and agree it's fine to question the effectiveness of a metaphor, I think when his comments are taken as a whole it's clear the intent wasn't to question its effectiveness but rather its appropriateness. The metaphor offended him, pure and simple. We have plenty of forums around here where people can argue their own sense of morality, but CA shouldn't be one of them. Opinions about how one should communicate are, indeed, welcome in this forum. Opinions about what one should communicate are best left at the front door. Content that falls within site guidelines, i.e., doesn't advocate harm to another, should be free from attacks posted under the guise of critique. It's perhaps a little ironic that the one forum at pipTalk where the participants are frequently known to decry vapid "butterfly" poetry should find themselves feeling a little uncomfortable. |
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yv Senior Member
since 2003-05-30
Posts 574 |
Thank you Ron and Severn... Severn...I realize the caps were kinda over done...but...I've stated that that's just the way I write...do you have any suggestion for helping me break this habit? It'd be greatly appreciated! And...also...could you point out to me where the imagery is overdone...so mayhaps I can remedy the problem in the future...if I decide to enter it somewhere maybe? Yv~Seeing eternal Sunshine |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
quote: No more Ironic perhaps, than seeing those most often espousing greater “tolerance” and benign comments, on that same forum, would take the opportunity to thrust their own cynical little jab, at the expense of said participants. If you must carp: Carpe diem! ICSoria My poetry forum. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I'm sorry if you found my saying to this poem rude. I can't really enjoy or critique physical/structural things in a poem if I have strong problems or misunderstandings with the spiritual meaning or intention. That's why I said my misgivings and questions about the virtue of the idea/theme. The poem seems to try to make the same idea out of two very conflicting and contraversial things by ignoring the differences in what is being payed for, who is the entity, what the conditions are, and the nature and quality of those. And doesn't give any ground for trying to do that. It seems we are just supposed to accept it based on something unsaid. I find prostitution far from being any "sanctuary" or "ability" to live one's life. It is abusive, and harmful. And that's why it is a crime. No one deserves to be treated as as an object or means to sex, and deceived into believing they are saved, or being treated well, when they are being used and abused. Such a thing likened or made out as something for spiritual enlightenment a means to God, and salvation, seems ignorant to the truth. My point of critique or for critical discussion here is the the reason and virtue of an idea/suggestion in a poem . If that is not within the guidelines of the forum to question/discuss such thing, then I will make an end of my words here. |
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yv Senior Member
since 2003-05-30
Posts 574 |
Okay...I see... Accept it or not...I used the juxtaposition of the two themes not to offend anyone...but to express how people who are in their situations are in their situations and make the best of what they are. The two ideals are not the same...true enough...but the idea of paying for some sort of "salvation" if you will...or some sort of result for your "tithes" is pretty much the basis. I will admit that I hadn't much time to think about how much controversy this poem would cause. It was just something my friend asked me to do...she picked an object and told me to write a poem about it. And this is what came out of it...something that could be shown in a different light than most people would want or ever have seen it in. I'm sorry if I've offended you...but I'm not apologetic for the two opposing themes in the poem by any means. You are no doubt free to feel how you do about anything...your opinions are your opinions...so I'm sorry that my thematic elements don’t agree with you. But...that's all I can say about it...I don't feel the need to change how I write or what I write about. I'm not ashamed for what I said or how I said it. But...I do apologize for offending you...making you uncomfortable...or whatever it is I did. Yv~Seeing eternal Sunshine |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Hey again. Helping you break the habit eh? I know what it's like to have a 'way' in which you write, and feel like you can't change it. So, if you want to you just do it. Force yourself to step out of the comfort zone. My suggestion: Take your poem/s into a Word document and copy them as they are Like so: So... Under my porch Swings your savoir faire You stand legs opened To whatever silver dollar rolls your way Walk with a stutter and a Dip in your hip you Grab at the lights in Complete yellow-stained darkness The lamp is your crusader The street your blazing saddle Streetlight serpentine Sex-stained imperfections of Your crawling flesh Yet You still stand Bowing to the bulb-ous King of Nickel and Dime Juke Joints and Fatties rolled on Your tip’s dashboard Under my porch Thighs a mile wide Breasts sky high With the wine-stamped breath of A night of $20 merriment and Your business card Tattooed to the Porcelain nightlight Your sanctuary and Homemade temple of Nightly worship Waiting for the next Late night Lonelies to Bring forth their Tithes and offerings ________ First thing: Ignore the words themselves, and just look at it - get yourself accustomed to looking at the space, shape, format, white space of and around the poem. If you're writing freeverse all of those things are just as important as the words themselves. How it looks, affects how it sounds. So in the case of this poem at the start of every line it's like a small hiccup: In the English language an initial cap at the start of a new line signifies the beginning of a new sentence yes? We visually read that - so if you have a poem with initial caps at the beginning of every line there's a good chance our brains are going to interpret the end of the line before as having an invisible fullstop/period. Hence the first verse of your poems reads something like this: So... Under my porch. Swings your savoir faire. You stand legs opened. To whatever. Silver dollar rolls your way. Mini-hiccups. In your mind though you've written the poem so you 'hear' it differently - able to overcome those invisible periods. Try overcoming the invisible periods in another way by removing them visually: so... under my porch swings your savoir faire you stand legs opened to whatever silver dollar rolls your way This removes ALL invisibles periods and you have a space of unrestrained words, blending together. The reader will find their own way to 'hear' this piece, without the guide of punctuation or initial caps. If I look at that, I read it with space and sound - it's breathing. Or: so... under my porch swings your savoir faire You stand legs opened to whatever silver dollar rolls your way One initial cap here creates a definite sound in this stanza. An invisible period after the 'faire'. Guidance from you as the author as to how you want your poem to sound. It's about control. Why don't you try that with the whole poem - experimenting with creating sound gaps in different places throughout the piece. Read it aloud as you go. Next - imagery. Imagery is over-rated. I get flayed for saying things like that - isn't imagery what poetry is all about? No, not entirely. Like I said before it's about space and other things as well - like using language effectively. In some places you've crammed your space so completely with images you can't see the wood for the trees. The best verse to me is this: 'Walk with a stutter and a Dip in your hip you Grab at the lights in Complete yellow-stained darkness' The weakest is this: The lamp is your crusader The street your blazing saddle Streetlight serpentine Sex-stained imperfections of Your crawling flesh The first is strong. You've used one image here. 'Complete yellow-stained darkness.' The rest describes action. This is a very clear stanza ~punch punch punch: simple, concise, I can 'see' the subject of the poem, out in the night and then bam I'm hit with the 'complete yellow-stained visual' which gives me a concise visual locale and an aura of threat. Very nice. However, I do recommend that you change it to just 'yellow-stained darkness.' Why? 'Complete yellow-stained darkness' doesn't make sense really. It's either yellow-stained, or it's complete yes? 'Walk with a stutter and a Dip in your hip you Grab at the lights in yellow-stained darkness' Without the initial caps: 'Walk with a stutter and a dip in your hip you grab at the lights in yellow-stained darkness' Wonderful. Now, the weaker verse. 'The lamp is your crusader The street your blazing saddle Streetlight serpentine Sex-stained imperfections of Your crawling flesh' 4 images in 5 lines. This has several, negative effects. You've undermined any strength you might have had in the stanza. This is just a confused huddled of image. All of a sudden we shift from a powerful image of threat in yellow-stained darkness to cliched medieval tournament imagery - very very weak. For no explicable reason this then shifts to snakelike streetlight, which undermines your previous threatening yellow-stained darkness, which needs no metaphor to deliver it's power - it just is what it is. Finally we have crawling flesh. What a confused jumble! The images don't have any resonance, or even any meaning when placed together in the stanza. It's like you have your powerful darkness image and then you feel like you need to back it up with MORE images. You don't. I'd consider losing that stanza entirely - it really isn't necessary, you've already communicated the environment in a much stronger way. Does that make sense? The next part is again reasonably strong - imagery without embellishment, without meaningless metaphor - except at the end where you have your key metaphor: the temple of nightly worship. It works because you have only one metaphor, placed strategically after a string of concrete images - this gives the concrete images power, and also empowers that metaphor. If you had 5-6 other metaphors that didn't link to the worship metaphor you'd undermine it. The concrete images show the reader your poetic environment; the metaphor shows the reader your point, your drive. You've carried that worship metaphor on in the next stanza, which backs it up. Nothing in there about unnecessary snakes, crawling flesh or tournaments. Also, because you have a combination of concrete imagery, and a themed metaphor, if you lose that middle jumble of imagery then the plethora of concrete imagery in the second to last stanza doesn't seem so overwhelming. Again this links to the visual format of the poem, letting it breathe. Hope that makes some sense to you - if you need clarification let me know. Cheers K |
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yv Senior Member
since 2003-05-30
Posts 574 |
Thank you very much! Everything you said made perfect sense. I'll work with the stanza that I saw you mentioned...with the overabundance of images. I even have argued that details can ruin a piece...I just failed to realize that is exactly what I was trying to stop people from doing...over embellishing an idea! So...thanks again. If I can't make it work better...I'll definitely consider dropping it...I like the image of sex-stained imperfections...but I see now that the rest of the image is overworked. I’ll also work on the use of caps. I’ve tried maybe once to break the habit…I don’t remember how it worked out…but I do believe that I need to work on it! So…thank you for the suggestions. Thanks for the help! Truly appreciate it! Yv~Seeing eternal Sunshine |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
You're very welcome. Haven't done this for awhile - it was good to again. K |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Hi Severn. Long time no see. Good to have you back. BTW, yv, Severn was largely responsible for making me learn to not cap every line. And that was no small trick as I am pretty mired in tradition. |
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yv Senior Member
since 2003-05-30
Posts 574 |
Grand! It's great to know I'm not the only one trying to break an old habit... Thanks very much you guys!! It's greatly appreciated! Yv~Seeing eternal Sunshine |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Heya Pete. Did I really? I didn't know that! Wow, that's cool.  |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
What is being judged when we critique here in the forums, the poet, the poem, or both? It doesn't feel like I'm judging the poet, when I judge the poem. Even when I know that those may be what he or she believes. If that's what he or she believes, am I not just judging his or her belief therewith? Is it possible for me at all to judge the poet? Is it possible to judge any poet as wrong? Even though some writing or idea may be faulty, how is it possible for any poet to be faulty? Even though some saying is faulty, how is it possible for the sayer to be faulty? If some deed is faulty, how is the doer faulty? It seems to me when people refer to someone as being wrong, or right, etc, that they are still really referring more or less closely or vaguely to things known that were expressed, or things done, by that. They still can't have a judgement upon the person himself. For the soul is the soul, it is not good or evil. And it is also too wide for us to judge all the content that the soul surrounds itself with. But we do have within our own "sphere" the ability to send judgement on things people bring forth to say, express as thought, or do in such a way that we may acknowledge it. I think almost inevitablly we fall sometimes into the habit of saying someone herself or himself is "mistaken" "wrong" "evil" etc But we must remember that truly we are not referring to the person himself, but we are referring to his sayings, thoughts, or deeds, so far as we know them. Therefore please know I didn't judge yv as a Poet. I judged her idea. And hope she knows I didn't mean she herself offended me. But just wished to express my feelings against the idea in in her poem for the things I mentioned earlier. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Essorant, you should post your thoughts, both on prostitution and right and wrong, over in the Philosophy forum. I'll be happy to explain over there why you are wrong on both counts. Over here, however, it's not very polite to hijack someone else's critique so you can get on a soapbox. Better yet, write your own poem on those subjects, expressing your own views. |
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yv Senior Member
since 2003-05-30
Posts 574 |
My Dear Essorant...I never thought that you were judging me...and I've always said one's thoughts and opinions are his own...and I respect them. But this poem wasn't meant to get people even remotely riled up over a religious belief...I was making an image that I thought {and still do think} fit. So...as far as thinking that you were attacking me...that's not even the case...I don't know you...you don't know me. But...my poem is my work and what I write is what I feel. And I don't feel sorry for it or apologize for content because it may run the risk of making people uneasy. Ron...thank you for your comment... Essorant...be free to state whatever opinion...that's fine. Just know all I wanted was someone to help me better my writing...not change what I write about. That's all. Yv~Seeing eternal Sunshine |
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Dominique-Simone Senior Member
since 2005-11-12
Posts 643 |
I am new to the site and I would have to say that you are a very great writer.. You show clear images in your writing and radiate immense sensations... Good Work! |
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yv Senior Member
since 2003-05-30
Posts 574 |
Thank you very much for your comment Madame Simone... And welcome to Passions!! Yv~Seeing eternal Sunshine |
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