»
Archives
»
Critical Analysis #2
»
The Edge
| Critical Analysis #2 |
|
The Edge |
|
|
SimplyGold Senior Member
since 2002-07-10
Posts 1453 |
The Edge A tiny figure stood on the edge of night While moon beams and stars danced on the water No ghostly ships could be seen nor did the evenings mist lend itself to shelter Sounds are too few Just the gentle caress of the tides hitting the beach and foaming away The sea gulls calling to reassure each other of their presence In the solitude of this timeless moment The world seems made for giants Dreams only limited by the thoughts of a tiny figure standing against the edge of the universe How often does the night question the day? Is there ever any doubt that day will arrive? Millions and millions of stars blinking in the black To the eye remnants of yesterday One tiny figure balanced on the circle of now Walking the perimeter of a black hole where the past is a consequence of today and tomorrow is already to late There with the moon, the stars and the water's song You can hear the singing The haunting echo of one human beings voice Falling into the darkness Praying to come out the other side c2002SimplyGold |
||
| © Copyright 2002 SimplyGold - All Rights Reserved | |||
|
Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
SG Thanks for posting this. The best thing to say about it is that you have managed to maintain a consistent tone throughout the piece. The next best thing is the ending which has distinct possibilities. Unfortunately I don't think the rest of the poem lives up to the closure, the centered text is a distraction moving the eye all over the place and making it seem disjointed, there are plenty of typos, missing punctuation and an discomfiting change of tense at the start of S2. Also you have lots of nights, moonbeams, mists, beaches, stars and dreams - all dangerous words SG! All potentially very cliche! And the message? The insignificance of humanity set against the magnitude of the universe! A theme that's been covered a few million times already. There were a few interesting lines: " where the past is a consequence of today" is a possibly a poem in itself, and I might be fascinated to hear your thoughts on that line, and moreover your effort to move away from writing introspectively and abstractly is a great credit to you. I would like to suggest something. No problems if you don't want to do it, or you haven't got time, but how about if we were to start from scratch and you were to try and write something new here in this thread. Taking it in stages. (Sorry Christopher this is definitely going to be a case of getting the grip and stance right first!) . If you are interested, the first thing I would ask you to do is come up with a couple of personal experiences that you've had from the past that have affected you deeply. Maybe an incident - preferably something that actually happened rather than just a description of a feeling you had. Maybe something that happened in an elevator Or while you were on a boat Or while you were cooking a meal Or when a relative or friend died Or when you got a pet animal Or during a sports event Anything, as long as it made an impression on you, which has left clear images of the incident and clear remembrance of the feelings you experienced. If you don't want to do this in the forum I will do it by e-mail, but I would prefer here, as I think this sort of thing might help others. As I say, if you can, write just a very few lines two or three (in ordinary prose) about each incident - the more the better up to say five, in a reply to this thread. Then we will see where we go from there. And if you don't feel like doing it that's fine as well. Regards Rob |
||
|
SimplyGold Senior Member
since 2002-07-10
Posts 1453 |
Hi Rob, Thank you very much. I had the feeling and I agree -- full of cliches. The middle is as you say. I can see this now. I will take you up on your offer. Will resond later today with material for the first lesson. Anxious to learn and write better! SG |
||
|
SimplyGold Senior Member
since 2002-07-10
Posts 1453 |
Rob, Here it goes: Excercise l. She lay in my arms The time had come Labored breathing in sink with my own She had spent her will to go on but, I just could not let go Exercise 2. Behind this wheel I find my freedom I pass the hills and streams Breathing in a mixture of burning leaves and fresh air Time is no boundary and change is just a matter of left and right Excercise 3. The Lama pushes laying on her side Her baby struggles as she works her way legs first Experienced hands reach out to assist this new begining First contact has been made |
||
|
Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Ok SG (or Electra?) I have spent an hour or so reading all your poems in Open 21 and 22 so I know a little more about you and your writing. Not as much as I ought to though after reading 30 poems or so! I asked you for two or three scenarios because I wanted to be able to pick one - the one that seemed most promising. From what I have just read I suspect that you have already “written out” #1. What I mean is that it might be difficult to steer you away from lines that you have created in the past. #2 is a little vague, and the direction it’s going is flagged up so clearly that it might not be too productive. Sooooooo one left ... #3. This has definite promise - straightaway you have a compelling scene in my head (and besides I am very biassed as I like animals and poetry which includes them). So we will do #3. Now then first off I would like you to write just a short piece expanding on the scene. What you need to do is concentrate and maybe even close your eyes and go back to the incident. Relive it in your head trying to “see” the images clearly and sharply again. Don’t restrict yourself. Try and see the WHOLE scene, the people there, the colors, the immediate location and the wider scene, the sounds, the smells, the weather, anything at all that contributes to the experience however insignificant it might appear right now. For instance, what were these experienced hands like? Were they cut, rough, dirty, large, did they have rings, did the rings have stones, did the sun glint on the rings? What were the Lama’s eyes doing? The faces of the onlookers? Try and see the scene like a movie in your head and then write it all down. Every detail. DON’T try to analyse the experience or set out your feelings or jump ahead planning a poem - just simply record on paper or the screen all the sensory experiences of that moment, and in no particular order. Try and write at least 15 lines but preferably not more than 200! And just write in note form, rough jottings like a diary - don’t try to be poetic. If you feel comfortable with posting your notes on the experience in this thread please go ahead, and then we will move on to the next stage (by the way this is going to take several days, possibly weeks!). If you at any stage you feel like you don’t want to post publicly then let me know, but as I say I would prefer to work in this thread if you are ok with it. If any of the above is not clear then please hollah! Regards Rob [This message has been edited by Robtm1965 (10-14-2002 03:01 PM).] |
||
|
Radrook Senior Member
since 2002-08-09
Posts 648 |
Hi! I enjoyed the imagery of your poem. Here are my suggestions to improve it: The Edge A tiny figure stood on the edge of night While moon beams and stars danced on the water No ghostly ships could be seen nor did the evening[] mist lend itself to shelter Sounds are too few [You shift from the past tense "stood" and "danced" "could be seen" to present tense "are". If you begin in past tense, then you must consistently use past tense.] Just the gentle caress of the tides hitting the beach and foaming away The sea gulls calling to reassure each other of their presence In the solitude [Make us feel the timelessness via the description. No need to tell us. Neither do you have to tell us it is a moment. That is assumed.] The world seems made for giants Dreams only limited by the thoughts of a tiny figure standing against the edge of the universe [Perhaps "child" is better here. It avoids repeating "tiny figure."] How often does the night question the day? Is there ever any doubt that day will arrive? Millions and millions of stars [The reader knows that stars are set against a black background. He also knows that we see them with our eyes.] remnants of yesterday One [] figure balanced on the circle of now Walking the perimeter of a black hole where the past is a consequence of today and tomorrow is already [too] late. [Deep stuff!] There with the moon, the stars and the water's song[,] [resounds the] singing [Shifting to the second person singular [you] introduces a disruptive element since it hasn't been used at the outset. It is also unnecessary and weakens the poem's dramatic effect.] The haunting echo of a [] voice Falling into the darkness Praying to come out the other side. [You have shifted from calling the child a tiny figure to calling him a human being. That is distracting. The reader will assume that the voice mentioned is that of a human being since animals don't pray and since the only one mentioned capable of this is the tiny figure.] [Hope that this along with the other advice proves useful.] |
||
|
SimplyGold Senior Member
since 2002-07-10
Posts 1453 |
Rad, Thanks for these ideas. Yes, I agree with Rob that this is a spent topic but, still one that is worth feeling and writing about. Here is my rewrite based upon your observations. Stash or trash?? A tiny figure stands on the edge of night While moon beams and stars dance on the water No ghostly ships can be seen nor does the evening mist lend itself to shelter Sounds are too few Just the gentle caress of the tide hitting the beach and foaming away The sea gulls calling to reassure each other of their presence This world seems made for giants Dreams only limited by the submission of defeat Here stands one child balanced on the center of now Walking the perimeter of a black hole Where the past is a consequence of today and tomorrow is already too late Here with the moon, the stars and the water's song Is the haunting echo of a distant voice falling into the darkness praying to come out the other side |
||
|
SimplyGold Senior Member
since 2002-07-10
Posts 1453 |
Hi Rob, Part 2 per your instruction: l. Anxious faces of people 2. Small guteral sounds from the Mama Lama 3. The earthy odor of hay and animals 4. People kneeling, anticipating and watching in stunned silence 5. The long lama legs protuding from between the legs of the mama 6. The slow exit of the baby lama and the final push and sigh from the mama 7. Other Lama's lingering around outside the shelter/barn 8. Flies 9. The placenta and the mama cleaning her baby 10. The happiness of the couple who owned her 11. The baby trying to stand 12 How beautiful this new life was 13. The affection or what I perceived to be the mama's affection 14. The gently licking and cleansing of the baby 15. The vets satisfaction with himself and how proud and amazed he seemed. 16. My own surprise at the experience of this birthing. Is this enough to work with and is this what you were looking for? SG |
||
|
Radrook Senior Member
since 2002-08-09
Posts 648 |
Rad, Thanks for these ideas. Yes, I agree with Rob that this is a spent topic but, still one that is worth feeling and writing about. Here is my rewrite based upon your observations. You are welcomed. The poem is better now. There are other ways you can use to make it more descriptive if you wish. The use of adjectives is one. So I will concentrate on that for now. A tiny figure stands on the edge of night While moon beams and stars dance on the water ["moonlight and starlight dance" can also be used.] No ghostly ships can be seen nor does the evening mist lend itself to shelter. [What color is the evening mist? or What is its texture? dense? Perhaps "fog" is better?] [Silence] Just the gentle caress of the tide [against] beach and foaming. [] Sea gulls call [] reassuring each other. [How do these seagulls feel? "frightened seagulls call?" The world seems made for giants Dreams limited only by the submission [to] defeat [The child balances] [Try modifying the "child with an adjective.] on the center of now Walking the perimeter of a black hole Where the past is a consequence of today and tomorrow is already too late. Here, with the moon the stars and the water's song [reverberates] the haunting echo of a distant voice falling into the darkness [Example of how adjectives can add to the descriptive power of a poem: "deep darkness" "profound darkness" "infinite darkness" "dense darkness" "swirling darkness" "ravenous darkness" "awaiting darkness" "malevolent darkness" "growing darkness" "deepening darkness" "intimidating darkness "ink-black darkness" Always search for adjectives my friend. This is also applicable to "moon" "stars" "water" "child" "perimeter" and any other noun which might be used in a poem.] praying to [emerge] on the other side. ["infinite side" "distant side" "receding side" "Godforsaken side" adjectives! ] [Always try to find ways to say the same thing with less words. Or with more descriptive words. For example, "emerge" replaces "come out" One word replaces two. Also, "reverberates" is more descriptive than "is." Just some rules to keep in mind as you attempt to write other poems or if you wish to continue to polish this one.] BTW The subjects of love, hatred, hope, devotion, loyalty, jealousy, determination, worship, freedom, anger at tyranny, frustration with inept rulers, humor, and so on, are timeless subjects which poets will always write about. Why? Because they are inseparable from our humanity. [This message has been edited by Radrook (10-15-2002 04:13 AM).] |
||
|
Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Good start Electra but before we move on lets see if you can’t do a little better on the detail. The power of this poem is going to be in the detail, so we need to do as well as we can right now at this early stage in development to acquire as much as we can. 1. Anxious faces of people Anxious? In what way, how could you tell they were anxious? Tight lips? Pale? Skin tone and color? Nail biting? Other nervous gestures? Biting lips? Fidgeting? Perspiring? Was it hot cold humid? Culture of the people you were with? 2. Small guteral sounds from the Mama Lama From her mouth? What sort of sounds? Squeaks like a rusty hinge? Coughs like someone with a bad chest? Shore sounds? Long sounds? High pitched low pitched? Other noises from her? Teeth grinding? Bowel sounds, womb sounds? 3. The earthy odor of hay and animals Ok earthy, but can you be more specific? Like? - any similies you can think of? 4. People kneeling, anticipating and watching in stunned silence Kneeling? How? On both knees like praying? Or one knee? Hands on hips ..on resting on flexed knee? Men and women kneeling differently? Silence? Was it really? Was nobody making any noise at all? No gasps? No encouragement? No advice? Language spoken? 5. The long lama legs protuding from between the legs of the mama What do you see when you see this? How long ...inches ..feet?...Color? Texture? Was there any fur? Slime? Smell? Could you see hooves? Were the legs straight or bent? Thin or thick... size? 6. The slow exit of the baby lama and the final push and sigh from the mama How slow? How long did it all take? Dis the mother need help from someone? If so what did he or she do? How much did the mama push? Was she in apparent pain? After the legs what did you see? More detail on the body, the head , the ears , the eyes? Open or shut? 7. Other Lama's lingering around outside the shelter/barn Restless? Interested? Noise? How many? How close? 8. Flies Noise? How many? What type of fly? Where did they land if they did? Did they bother the llama? Did they annoy the humans? People flicking at them? 9. The placenta and the mama cleaning her baby Describe. Color texture, noises from baby? Did it stand? Curl up? How big? Much more detail here. 10. The happiness of the couple who owned her Names? Married? Clothes? Is there any significance to the fact they owned llamas? 11. The baby trying to stand See above. 12 How beautiful this new life was [That is more of a feeling] 13. The affection or what I perceived to be the mama's affection What made you perceive it? Describe what it was you saw that made you think there was affection present. 14. The gently licking and cleansing of the baby see above. 15. The vets satisfaction with himself and how proud and amazed he seemed. See above. More detail on this vet, Age, did he help birth? See above comments about “people”. 16. My own surprise at the experience of this birthing. That is more a feeling - we will come to those next! After we have pinned down some more detail on the scene. Also I think we should start spelling llama correctly before we get sued by some religious outfit in Tibet!! Best regards Rob |
||
|
Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
SG and Radrook I said: "And the message? The insignificance of humanity set against the magnitude of the universe! A theme that's been covered a few million times already." SG said: “Yes, I agree with Rob that this is a spent topic but, still one that is worth feeling and writing about.” Radrook said: “The subjects of love, hatred, hope, devotion, loyalty, jealousy, determination, worship, freedom, anger at tyranny, frustration with inept rulers, humor, and so on, are timeless subjects which poets will always write about. Why? Because they are inseparable from our humanity.” I just wanted to make it clear that I entirely agree with both of you. These themes will always be a major part of a poet’s concerns. What is important is not whether you write about them but HOW! And the point I was making was that because the HUGE themes have been explored so much and in so great a depth already, it is hard to write overtly about them in an original way. You start with a handicap. Rob |
||
|
SimplyGold Senior Member
since 2002-07-10
Posts 1453 |
Rob, Just got your instuctions and will proceed to work on it. Thanks, this is going to require some recall. I hope to have more indepth adjectives hopefully, by Thursday, Friday. In the meantime, I'll be thinking about it. SG |
||
|
SimplyGold Senior Member
since 2002-07-10
Posts 1453 |
Rad, Thank you. I have noticed that both you and Rob have pointed out that I'm not using enough adjectives to describe nouns. I just realized that I have been using a lot of adjectives to describe feelings. Perhaps, this is part of my weakness and causing me to be too abstract. Both of you have given me pause to T h i n k analyically about the structure of what I'm putting on paper as opposed to just writing what comes. This is proving to be very valuable. I look forward to being able to put this, at some given point, into action for better results. I'll keep working at it. Appreciate the guidance from you both. Repectfully, SG |
||
|
Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Electra I missed your reply because for some reason my browser is not updating this thread - it still says that the last post was on Oct 15 and it’s way down the message board. Anyway no matter. Take your time if you need to, there’s no hurry with this, however just a few points: 1 I am certainly NOT advocating the use of more adjectives! Adjectivitis is a major contributor to bad poetry whether they are used to describe “feelings” or “things”. Overuse of adjectives waters down a good poem [administrative edit - subjective opinion] On the other hand I am not saying “never use adjectives and adverbs”. Radrook is quite right, sometimes they can add essential information to a noun or verb. But be sparing! 2 BTW regarding my post asking you for more detail, I am NOT asking you to write flowery language, simply a prose statement at this stage - so for instance instead of saying “people were kneeling” you say: “The men knelt on two knees as if praying, the women bend over at the waist clothes hanging, a guy on one knee his maroon pants scuffed and holed on the other knee, a little boy eyes peering intently crouched balanced on the balls of his feet, a young girl hiding her face in her moms skirt” get the idea? Also you haven’t said whether this was all taking place inside or out? If inside describe the building, if out describe the scene. 3 One thing that really distinguishes good poets from ordinary mortals is their power of observation. Poets see and hear things that others don’t. I mean ordinary things - material things: A dog with a one eye blue the other brown Gum stuck to the sidewalk in a heart shape The color of rust on a can A phone ringing once as you pass an open window in a city The way every 5th wave is bigger The crack sound as you open the spine of a new book Crazing of old plastic A lady at checkout with large hands And so on ... The fruits of acute observation are simultaneously the springboard for ideas and the raw material to create the imagery to project those ideas. Ideally you should keep a notebook with you at all times and record what you see and any thoughts that the observations trigger there and then - one word of caution, I would recommend that you don’t do what I once did and try handling a pencil and notebook while driving at speed! And certainly you should be “planning” poems. i.e. you should have some idea of what you want to do before you start writing. This is NOT however to say that the poem won’t take on a life of its own or go off in an unexpected direction. 4 Have you read any Sharon Olds? 5 On a practical matter, this thread was started by a poem posted by you. If others continue to comment on that poem it will become confusing. For instance I was unsure whether you were saying above that you should have used more adjectives in that particular poem or just generally. So if we get too many comments interleaving the ongoing dialogue about the “llama poem” if it is ok with you I might ask Pete (moderator) to set up a new thread and transfer across just the replies that are relevant to the llama thread, if he will do it of course! Anyway we’ll see how we go. Regards Rob [This message has been edited by Nan (10-23-2002 12:27 AM).] |
||
|
SimplyGold Senior Member
since 2002-07-10
Posts 1453 |
Rob, Yes, I have a better understanding of what you are conveying. I have not read any of Sharon Olds work but, will look for her writng at the book store. I assume that is where I can find her? FYI, I appreciated your response to Ethel. It was a benefit to me as well. SG |
||
|
Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Electra If you find Sharon Olds at a bookstore mail me quick! No, being serious the collection you need to get is: The Wellspring: Poems by Sharon Olds Look inside this book List Price:$15.00 Price:$10.50 You Save:$4.50 (30%) You can buy it at the Amazon.com site or Barnes and Noble or most good bookstores I would imagine. Also if you go into Amazon and find the book you can follow the links to look inside and have a preview of about 13 of the poems. Which may be enough for you as Olds is VERY graphic. That’s why I was suggesting that you read her poetry. It is about as far away as you can get from abstract airy fairy poetry, and yet incredibly beautiful for all that. Be warned though she tells it as it is! One reviewer wrote with some accuracy: The most honest poet alive., April 19, 2001 Reviewer: A reader from Boston, MA, USA "This is the most straightforward, urgent, honest poetry I have ever read. Not for fans of pretentious flowery language, for the squeamish, or for simpletons who don't see that there is beauty in complexity. I have yet to find another poet who can write with the clarity of Sharon Olds." The following link may take you directly to the pages where you can “look inside” her book The Wellsprings (but from past experience the link may not work). If it works it will take you to her poem "The Lisp", you can then scroll back through about 12 of her poems using the little red back arrow on the left of the page: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/deta il/-/0679765603/ref=lib_rd_prev_14/002-3021578-7019211?v=glance&vi=reader&img=14#reader-link However the main reason I wanted you to read Wellsprings is that it contains a poem called “First Birth” which is about childbirth. And given the way our discussion about llamas has been developing I thought it might be helpful for you to read a poem about birth which illustrates what I mean about imagery conveying feelings. Regards Rob [This message has been edited by Robtm1965 (10-17-2002 01:57 PM).] |
||
|
SimplyGold Senior Member
since 2002-07-10
Posts 1453 |
Hi Rob, You make me laugh. I will forever more be cognisant of what I write and how I write it. FYI, I want you to know just how much I appreciate your mentorship. I know that I speak for many when I say, as my little nephew would express with arms wide open, this much  etc...................................................... and  SG |
||
|
Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
We all need mentoring I guess Electra, and nobody ever stops learning, and I'm sure my way of doing things isn't the only way. But thanks anyway for the appreciation. (If I could bring myself to do one of those smiley things I would at this point - so please assume a virtual smiley!) Now then down to business: you have all weekend to read some Sharon Olds and to get working on providing more detail about your llama. No excuses! Best regards Rob PS Also you really should try your hand at critiquing someone elses poem. It not as hard as it looks, and the worst that can happen is that you can make a fool of yourself like I just did in Hush's thread! |
||
|
SimplyGold Senior Member
since 2002-07-10
Posts 1453 |
Hi Rob, I started a new thread for our Llama lesson. Please see "Llama Lesson Thread" posted today, Saturday. SG aka/Electra |
||
|
Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
oops ..deleted [This message has been edited by Robtm1965 (10-19-2002 03:15 PM).] |
||
|
Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
THIS REPLY FROM SIMPLY GOLD: Hi Rob, I don't know if this is how it is done but, I just decided to start this as you suggested to continue our lesson. Now I must confess, I'm starting all over because I emblished and was not being focused or totally honest with the examples of the Llama experience. So I will attempt again. 1. Hands without gloves, no rings or polish femine hands, seasoned, tan with long fingers, nails trimmed close, no signs of beauty palor care. 2. A small slender woman wearing jeans, hair dirty blond. No neighbors to help, just she and I. A vet by virtue of experience. 3. We are outside the birthing barn. The other animals, llamas, are not too far separated by a fence. They are standing clear leaving the mama llama to her task. 4. Around us there is lot's of llama poop, it smells of a lite mixture of grass and walnuts. The rotting casing of the walnuts lay on the ground around us. 5.The mother altenately lays down and then stands again. As she stands she turns her head and looks at her side. She begins to squat spardically trying to push out her baby. Then finally, she squats slightly and the tiny feet of the baby appear with the nose peeking out of the cervix. The legs being longer, the head appears and then the shoulders clear. Out drops the baby to be caught by Judy. 6. She lays it on the ground and on bended knees removes the membrane. 7. The membrane is very smooth and once removed leaves the baby wet. Judy carries him into the birthing barn, lays him on a towel over the straw and begins to rub him down. 8. The mama llama is making small talking sounds as Judy picks him up and follows us into the barn. 9. She attends the llama with a cup of iodine placed under the protruding cord pressed against the belly. She then ties off the cord to prevent any germs from entering. 10. The baby begins to try and stand, it falls and crashes to the ground several times before succeeding. Front legs closer together, back legs spread like a tri-pod. Once standing he begins to nurse. This lasts for about 10 minutes. 11. The baby is a "paint" with white and black spots Red head from ears to face to neck. Two distinct black spots. One over the right eye, one under the left. The one over the left looks like half a star burst. The other like an criss cross. He has long curly hair and it is super soft. Two little toes on each hoof and pads tender without calouse. 12. Judy is attentive as the it begins to rain lightly outside. 13. She opens the barn door Mama exits followed by baby "Masallama" --meaning may God go with you. When the "girls" (other llamas) see him they coming running over to the fence, heads reach over to smell him. 14. While this is happening I am standing and feeling helpless and amazed. I'm asked to do little things like close the door, move the towel and take the cup. Rob, is this any better? Am I ready for lesson #3? Oh, I chuckled at your suggestion that I attempt to critique. Not ready to look foolish on that front quite yet. Maybe, after I rewrite "The Edge" still working on it and produce results from our excercise. Perhaps, then I will have learned something that will be benefical and make a contribution that will be worthwhile. I have read Sharon Old's excerpts and I see what you mean. Thank you so much. You and Rad are very much appreciated. You make learning fun! Respectfully, SG aka/Electra ROB'S REPLY TO SIMPLY GOLD: Electra this is much better. Much much better. We can move on now. The next stage might be a little more difficult. Now that you have listed the factual points about the incident please could you think carefully and deeply about the impact that it might have had on you personally. What is it about this particular incident that made it memorable i.e. that made you choose it as one of three memorable incidents? I know this could be hard for you, as it might be that you simply remember it because of the vividness of the images, but possibly it was very different from anything else that was going on in your life at the time? Maybe it is associated with other events that were going on at that time? Maybe it impacted on friendships? Made friendships? Maybe it made you think about birth generally and then more particularly? Maybe it made you think about your own children or if you haven’t any, your lack of them. Your own mother? Other animals you have know? I apologise if I am touching on private things or painful things Electra but this is what writing about “feelings” is all about - and it is important for the power of the poem that you try to honestly dig into those feelings and uncover anything that is lurking there! Don’t worry if its hard right now because if nothing comes to you we can move on to the actual writing of the poem when quite often the theme of the poem i.e. what we are going to produce from the llama incident will develop as you actually start constructing the poem. Nevertheless if you can it is better to have at least SOME idea about where we are heading from the beginning because your feelings about the incident or the way you were changed by it or the way people around you were changed may well form the core of what the poem will be about i.e. what it says about your life or maybe the world and humanity in general. As always if you want me to clarify, just yell! And if you want to revert to e-mail at this stage that’s fine as well. Regards Rob PS I was dead serious about the critique thing. You are CERTAINLY ready to have a go at commenting on others poems, and the exercise can only help you. All you have to do is say whether you liked a poem or not and try and pin down what it was you liked about it. I may be able to find some further tips on that later. But seriously please have a go, you need only write a few lines. Poets are always grateful for ANYONE’S opinion it helps them decided what is working and what isn’t, and quite often the less experienced critics provide the rawest, clearest and maybe even sometimes the most honest assessments. |
||
|
Radrook Senior Member
since 2002-08-09
Posts 648 |
Hi! Glad to be of help. No, I am definitely not advocating an overuse of adjectives. I only suggest an increase in the use of adjectives if a poem seems in need of these. Writers which describe scenery, whether in a novel, or short story, or poem, always make generous use of adjectives. Otherwise the reader will not see specifically what the writer wants him to see but will create a completely different scenario via his imagination. Words are the colors writers use to stimulate visual imagery in the reader. A writer refusing to make a generous use of adjectives while describing a scene is actually being required to work with one creative hand tied behind his back. It isn't practical nor recommended. In fact, all writing manuals encourage the APPROPRIATE use of adjectives In order to enhance what would otherwise be a very dull depiction of a scene. Of course, the use of adjectives can be overdone. In fact, it can be used to pad a poem and in that way compensate for lack of true substance. It can also be used to fill out meter. In obvious cases, adjectives are to be condemned since their purpose is warped. Such a misuse of adjectives was NOT what I was recommending as you properly understood. God bless! Adjectives - ... Of importance, is the notion that we teach single adjectives initially and then start combining strings of adjectives in utterances. ... http://newton.uor.edu/facultyfolder/rider/adj Since all links I attempt to place on here are not working, perhaps placing the url in the slot next to "go" will work? [This message has been edited by Radrook (10-19-2002 04:50 PM).] |
||
|
Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Critiquing A few pointers: Rather than just saying “this is great” or “wow”, try and find something specifically about the poem that you liked. Maybe it will be a particular sound, or possibly one of the images or metaphors or similes that the author used appealed to you. Secondly try and find something, again specific, that you didn’t like about the poem. Maybe a line break was odd, or the punctuation didn’t make sense, or a word sounded “clunky” to your ear. I know in the past I have implied that I think “meaning” is less important than other aspects of a poem, but nevertheless if you can’t understand a word the poet is saying then say so! Finally keep in mind that you are trying to assist the poet to improve the poem (or in extreme cases imply that you think a re-write might be necessary!) Also here is a useful link: http://www.wildpoetryforum.com/critips.html (Pete, I hope it is ok to post this link here, I know it is to another forum but I am unaware of anything similar here in Passions. If you don't like please feel free to delete.) Rob |
||
|
Radrook Senior Member
since 2002-08-09
Posts 648 |
Edited by moderator. Irrelevant discussion. [This message has been edited by Radrook (10-21-2002 06:02 PM).] |
||
|
Crazy Eddie Member
since 2002-09-14
Posts 178 |
Edited by moderator. Irrelevant discussion. [This message has been edited by Not A Poet (10-21-2002 01:45 PM).] |
||
|
Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Edited by moderator. Irrelevant discussion. [This message has been edited by Not A Poet (10-21-2002 01:46 PM).] |
||
|
SimplyGold Senior Member
since 2002-07-10
Posts 1453 |
Rad, This is the rewrite of the original poem, I cleaned it up and tried to use other words based on suggestions. Here goes: A tiny figure stands on the edge of night While moon beams and stars dance on the water No ghostly ships can be seen nor does the evenings salty mist lend itself to shelter Sounds are too few Just the gentle caress of the tide Hitting the beach and foaming away Sea gulls dip to the wind calling to assure each other of their presence This world seems made for giants Dreams limited only by the submission of defeat Here stands one child balanced on the center of now Walking the jagged perimeter of a black hole Where the past is a consequence of today and tomorrow is already too late Here with the moon, the stars and the water's song The resounding echo of a distant voice recedes into the darkness Praying to come out the other side SG [This message has been edited by SimplyGold (10-20-2002 11:40 PM).] |
||
|
SimplyGold Senior Member
since 2002-07-10
Posts 1453 |
Rob, I have ready Sharon Old's excerps and like her. She is very much a realist and her writing is very unpretentious. Excercise 3, I hope to have something on Monday. My writing has already begun to change. SG |
||
|
Radrook Senior Member
since 2002-08-09
Posts 648 |
Edited by moderator. Irrelevant discussion. [This message has been edited by Not A Poet (10-21-2002 01:46 PM).] |
||
|
Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Edited by moderator. Irrelevant discussion. [This message has been edited by Not A Poet (10-21-2002 01:46 PM).] |
||
|
Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Gentlemen, gentlemen, gentlemen. You have gone over the top this time. I am closing this thread until I have time to make it acceptable to the other members of the forum. We are not discussing poetry or even criticism of it anymore. This is not only a waste of time and effort, it is extremely unfair to SimplyGold, whose only interest was improving this particular poem. If I can make the thread acceptable, I will consider reopening it later. Now, everyone cool off a minute. Meanwhile, you might consider emailing SimplyGold to apologize for hyjacking her thread for your personal use. Pete |
||
|
Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
OK, we're back open again. Please check out SimplyGold's opinions in the Announcements forum here Thanks all, Pete |
||
|
Radrook Senior Member
since 2002-08-09
Posts 648 |
Critiquing: A few pointers |
||
|
Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
As this is likely to be my denouement i thought it would be suitably ironic to make the post in the thread which caused all the problems so that other members, if they have the time!! can read and judge for themselves. Unfortunately many of the replies were edited out but fortuitously i kept a copy of the thread having updated it on my WP every day in order to keep track of the teaching process with Simply Gold. I reproduce below the full thread and i'd be happy to hear from any of you especially if you think i was unreasonable in all the circumstances. Regards to all the regulars and happy critiquing in the future. Take care Rob [Edit Comments that have been removed by a Moderator will STAY removed. Ron] [This message has been edited by Ron (10-27-2003 04:48 PM).] |
||
|
|
⇧ top of page ⇧ |
|
| All times are ET (US). All dates are in Year-Month-Day format. | ||
