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Critical Analysis #2
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In regards to recent threads here...
| Critical Analysis #2 |
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In regards to recent threads here... |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
I ran into a situation tonight that reminded me of the debates that have taken place here recently. I work in bars… I’m a DJ and we travel to different bars nightly. There’s a lady who always comes to this bar that I work in on thursdays. She doesn’t drink alcohol, she only drinks coke. She’s a very nice woman, but when you talk to her, it’s very obvious that she has some sort of a cognitive impediment or deficiency. She’s just generally slow-witted, to the point that I imagine it affecting her social interactions and work. I also imagine that she’s very lonely, because I know she works at home, and she’s always there alone… and barstaff aside, I don’t much care for the clientele. To put it bluntly, they’re jerks, and I don’t imagine them being too friendly to her because in general, unless it’s some dirty old man trying to paw me, they aren’t very friendly to us, and we’re there to give them money off their booze! So, tonight she comes up to me and asks if I would be her critic, because she’s her own worst critic. I wasn’t sure what she wanted me to be critical about until she handed me a small, pocket-sized notebook with a small poem in it about her grandmother. It was an obviously novice poem with, and to be quite honest, I normally don’t have much patience for that type of poetry, full of generalities and cliches. However, her poem did touch me… not just because I know her, but because it verbalized her emotions directly, and some of her phrasing struck me as a unique point of view. She showed me another one, and asked which I liked better, and I told her the first one, which is true. But she had asked me to be her critic, and honestly? I couldn’t find something to critique in the type and level of poem she showed me. A few questions, though. When someone asks you to critique them, should you just let them have it? Do you think everyone who posts in CA understands its nature when they do so? To clarify… if I had told this woman there was no imagery in her poem and that she needs to make it more detailed and descriptive, I don’t think she really even would have known what to say, because I don’t think she would have anticipated that sort of thing in a response. I don’t even know if it was in her realm of thought. Does she understand what those things are? With that in mind, is it fair to dismantle a beginner for, say, terrible meter, if they are so novice (and perhaps so young and/or uneducated [I use that word without any stigma attached]) that they don’t even know there is such a thing as meter? And… I’m not saying this to single anybody out, just hopefully to make people think. Think about the woman I described above. Consider how she would feel if someone made a harsh, not even necessarily sarcastic reply to her, in regards to concepts she doesn’t even have any knowledge of. How do you think she would feel? (not a rhetorical question, please feel free to answer that.) And, considering how she might feel, would you want to be the one to make her feel that way? In the required reading thread, Rob equated not working with a novice to improve their work to a bird being hit by a car and left to die, injured… and an athlete abusing performance-enhancing drugs. Really? I’m not so sure… I’d like to think that smiling, and telling this woman I enjoyed her poetry was a lesser evil than either of those two things… and a lesser evil than sending her self-esteem plummeting. But… I’m just wondering what everyone thinks of this? [This message has been edited by hush (10-24-2003 12:54 AM).] |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Hush, you an entirely lovely person and poet. I realize my lack of previous participation in this forum may give me the perception of feeding opportunistically on the discord here; but please trust that my lack of participation is because I am simply insecure in my work--and like your friend, I write from a personal level. Unlike your friend (mehopes) I also have a flashpoint temper and a kick-ass defensive mechanism. When you critiqued your friend's poem though, you had the edge of sensitivity. You knew her in the flesh. You could gauge her mood, her eyes, her sincerity. Here on the blue pages that is infinitely more difficult if not impossible. Forgive me for migrating in here once again to offer up an opinion (but from your post I see that you, too, tend to be nomadic--"I’m a DJ and we travel to different bars nightly"--smile?) But--I have been following these discussions a bit, and I wanted to offer up something I found at another forum I joined some time ago. I confess I haven't been there in awhile and was surprised to find the rules had changed a bit. When I joined you could not post UNTIL you had critiqued five poems--OF THEIR CHOICE. These choices were generated in favor of those most in need of feedback. (number of replies) But upon joining this forum, should you try a fly-by post--here is the message you now receive: "The following are some basic guidelines for participating in the workshop: Written critiques are intended primarily for the writer. Therefore, reviews should address him/her directly and should contain helpful feedback. All criticism should be supported with direct examples from the work. This workshop is designed to give participants thoughtful feedback on their works while protecting their dignity. Criticism should be directed at the work, as opposed to the creator. When you first join the Poetry wing, we will "front" you 5 review credits, so you can submit immediately. After your first submission, however, you must meet the review-to-submit ratio before you can submit (e.g., to submit a second poem, you must have reviewed 10 works)." I think that could work here, don't you? And hush. Point well taken. Every poem critiqued should be handled with the sensitivity that you described in your particular situation. (As for emotion vs. skill in art critique? grin--that has been debated since the first cave paintings.) Thank you much lady. [This message has been edited by serenity blaze (10-24-2003 03:41 AM).] |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
“I’’m a DJ and we travel to different bars nightly” And I was sooo convinced you were a classical literature tutor!  .Regarding your story, I’m totally in agreement with what I think Serenity is saying. As I’ve tried to say in previous replies I think there is a vital distinction between what happens here and what happens in face to face interactions in everyday social situations. I sincerely hope that nobody here would have the insensitivity to do other than you did faced with that situation - even Sid!! To expand a little on what Serenity said though; surely the point is that not only can we not see or hear the person in question, it’s that they have chosen to come here specifically to post a poem for comment. I don’t I’m afraid buy the argument that new people don’t know what they are doing. For a start the net is littered with potential posting places that don’t bear the title CRITICAL ANALYSIS in large letters, they have lots of choice. Also on the net you are not pressured. You aren’t squeezing between gyrating dancers in a dim club trying desperately to reach your DJ friend between numbers to ask a critiquing favour. You have plenty of time to browse, consider, read, decide. Nope, I’m clear on this (though it IS only an opinion), I think people post in CA to hear what “experts” think as opposed to the “non-experts” in Open and all the other Open’s on the net (and geez - I sincerely hope no-one is gonna jump on me for that comment again, anyone who IS considering it PLEASE note the inverted commas.) Thirdly the description of the forum is clear enough I think to enable people to realise they are entering something akin to a real life poetry workshop. Tell me honestly Hush, if you and your friend had enrolled at the local writer’s centre on the creative writing poetry course and she produced the same poem, what would you then have done? “With that in mind, is it fair to dismantle a beginner for, say, terrible meter, if they are so novice (and perhaps so young and/or uneducated [I use that word without any stigma attached]) that they don’’t even know there is such a thing as meter?” It’s all in the attitude Hush which again, as I’ve said before you can usually pick up after only one response to a reply. If the attitude of a newbie is silence or petulance or sulking I think it’s perfectly reasonable to assume that the person isn’t overly open to being taught. If on the other hand they say: “Well wow that was a little harsh, I’m terribly hurt and I have no idea what your on about with this “meter” thingy, but maybe you could help me make it better and explain” then that’s different entirely. All I’m about is trying to separate the time wasters, posers and accolade seekers and for that matter those who ONLY want to “support” a friend or have a little chat, from the people who seriously want to participate to grow. The bird and drug stories were a direct response to Pete suggesting that, as it doesn’t harm me, why should I care if I do someone the disservice of staying silent or giving platitudes when I have to assume they came to hear truth and honesty. But as I say above your real life example was, for the reasons I’ve stated, entirely different. Serenity Why should I forgive you for migrating ? Btw, you are not a migrant any more you are and Occasional Visitor (because you don’t stay)  . Anyway personally I’ve never had a problem with migrants who contribute as much colour and intelligence as you do!There nothing in your reply that I disagree with. You don’t fancy pointing me in the direction of that other site do ya? ... lol. R |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Hush, what a wonderful thing to do - offer criticism edged with sensitivity. While not an expert in anything, when people know you like to write, yourself, they sometimes automatically [especially novices] believe you must be "better than" them, in a lot of instances. I never claim to be an expert, yet I'm willing to give assistance to others until we can find someone who knows better than either of us - and thereby learning more, myself. But when asked to critique, and I can see that it truly is a novice poem, or prose, one of my questions is, "What do you want to say with this piece?" Sometimes in the rephrasing of their desire that hasn't yet reached the paper, they find their own answer. Thank you for sharing this, Hush. It gives all of us a uniquely different insight into your world. And your many kindnesses. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Rob: quote: You're not taking into consideration that what you perceive as a silent, petulant, or sulking response may be a natural reaction to the manner of a critic's critique. It's too easy to label the novice as uneducable, and most of the time I believe the label is unwarranted. Hush's approach with the woman in the bar is commendable. Perhaps next Thursday, the woman will be open to more guidance, and given time, I'm pretty sure that the guidance will be tailored to the woman's pace. quote: And my point in the Persona thread when I used the word "sabotaged" is that the manner of several of the critics in Persona's post more often results in chasing away novices interested in learning along with "time wasters, posers and accolade seekers." Strikes me as being nothing short of poetic bigotry. Jim [This message has been edited by jbouder (10-24-2003 10:03 AM).] |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Thank you Amy, Karen, Karilea and Jim.  |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Okay... before I reply to this, I HAVE to KNOW. WHY do I keep getting these little rectangle things where there should be commas and dashes--- even in MY OWN POST? I've been trying to figure it out for months now, I've fiddled with all the fonts in my browser settings... and I'm afraid I've just made things worse? If anyone can help me, it would be much appreciated. Now, first, I'd like to say that I didn't really critique anything. I told her I liked it, and I told her which I liked more. In my judgement, what she was asking me for wasn't what she was prepared to get. And my point was that maybe that's the case here sometimes, too? 'And I was sooo convinced you were a classical literature tutor!' *chuckle* right, Rob... no, nothing so high-brow. And I'm afraid you glorify even my paltry position... it wasn't some booty-shaking, dimly lit club... it was me and another guy tapping our feet at some bar with like, 4 people in it waiting for some customers to show up. It didn't happen. 'For a start the net is littered with potential posting places that don't bear the title CRITICAL ANALYSIS in large letters' You're right... and I agree with your assertion that people come here seeking more serious advice, or at least a response aimed directly at the poem's quality rather than its emotional content. 'You have plenty of time to browse, consider, read, decide. Nope, I'm clear on this (though it IS only an opinion), I think people post in CA to hear what 'experts' think as opposed to the 'non-experts' in Open' And here's where I think some people run into a bit of trouble. Younger or newer poets may be in such a hurry to post, and be so anxious for feedback (and I think you may be right, at least in some cases, about the assurance-seeking... it's what I was doing when I first started, and to a degree, what I do now. Heh.. you should have seen how pissed I was when they shredded something I posted at pffa a couple years ago... and I didn't even post it in the 'high' critique area... but I digress) that they don't pay as much attention to forum description and the nature of the posts going on? And, I daresay, it's easy to spot these people. I also say that it's important to, at the very least, give them a gentle introduction and especially to refer them to reading other posts, maybe give them particular links to a post you think is very demonstrative of the types of interaction that usually go on here? 'Tell me honestly Hush, if you and your friend had enrolled at the local writer's centre on the creative writing poetry course and she produced the same poem, what would you then have done?' Worked with her more thoroughly, but, gauging her skill level and ability to learn, take on a teaching rather than critic role. 'If the attitude of a newbie is silence or petulance or sulking' But if they've just recieved a harsh and what they regard as devaluing reply, isn't that reaction, at the very least, understandable? Interestingly enough, I never used to reply to my own threads because I thought it was considered rude to come back and thank people, thus 'bump' the piece. I read the advice and, if I felt strongly ewnough about the poem, rewrote it. If not, I saved the advice for future writings, becaus enot every poem is a winner, and not every one, in my opinion, can be fixed. But anyway, my point here is that maybe the silence isn't always just them being sullen? ', why should I care if I do someone the disservice of staying silent or giving platitudes when I have to assume they came to hear truth and honesty. But as I say above your real life example was, for the reasons I've stated, entirely different.' How is it different? Do you mean that it's okay to be harsh to people when you're not looking at them? I don't mean that rhetorically either... one of the reasons I like to post ehre is that I find it easier to be more blunt and honest in on online format than I do face-to-face... but I think it's fair to say that we should at least consider evaluating this before we go ahead an assume it's something everyone expects. Sunshine: 'But when asked to critique, and I can see that it truly is a novice poem, or prose, one of my questions is, "What do you want to say with this piece?"' I think that's excellent advice. |
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Janet Marie Member Laureate
since 2000-01-22
Posts 18554 |
About the quotations and so on looking like rectangles (it also happens with ellipses) Somewhere in here a long time ago I read that happens when the post has been cut and pasted from Word Pad or similar programs... I've seen commas and apostrophes convert into question marks too. But recently I've had some tell me it did to them and they weren't pasting from Word Pad. I bet the Wizard knows why. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Rob--feel free to e mail me. (soliwitch@yahoo) and thanks, you. and if you should join that other forum? smiling wide, you'll not find any of my work there--I'm too intimidated to post THERE too. But I enjoy the lurking... |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
quote: When CA was first opened, I read. And read. And felt very glad I didn't offer up any sacrificial poems. I felt the shred of them even before starting to think I might offer up. Education, even self-education, is an amazing phenomenon. Sometimes we are teachers, sometimes we are students. It was when others started to say "let them have a look at it in CA - get their advice" that I finally gave in to the shredding monster [in my head] and let you folks have a whack at me. It was a kind whack. I believe my first attempt was generally shredded - nicely - and yes, because each writing is so personal to me, I took it personally. Then I learned that if I'm going to expect assistance, even if you all proclaim that you are not experts, then I have to be willing to meet you all half-way. I don't want to take it personally when you examine the poem. But as the poet, there has to be a connection to why or how the poem came about. Either through a personal experience or observation. I'll be the first one to say my education isn't over. And the first thing I learned about CA is that most of the folks here are going to give honest, forthright, feedback. I've seen the sites where they slam, ridicule, belittle, and generally tear a person apart in thinking "this is a critique, dang it, and you're going to listen!!" Click. I think we all learn better by example. Hush, I'm glad you liked my idea of putting the onus back on the poet to find out what their feelings are about their own work. Sometimes that self-examination goes a long way in bettering a person, let alone a poet. There's always a need to guage, not only the poem, but the poet. Perhaps that is why Open is so popular. We pay attention to the writers, as well as the write. I think that can be done here, as well. We don't have to gush here as can sometimes be seen in Open - that's a given. But we can understand that for most poets, what they write is sometimes a very intrical part, and inasmuch, who they are. Thank you for allowing my two cents. Your meandering alien. [This message has been edited by Sunshine (10-24-2003 01:52 PM).] |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
"How is it different? Do you mean that it's okay to be harsh to people when you're not looking at them?" Hush (and Jim) I don't have too much time right now but just to cover the point about petulance or sulking following a harsh critique, and at the same time answer the above question. The point is that I'm speaking from experience here, not theorising (when I have more time I’ll dig out some example threads). What I’m saying is that having posted many replies (or watched other people do so) to poems where the originator had no interest in participating (which only became apparent later) i’m inclined to think that a blunter (not sarcastic or even necessarily harsh) reply would weed such people out quickly before I, or anyone else for that matter, wasted too much time on them. Generally I think people who are really wanting to improve their writing won’t be put off by the type of replies I was making about a year ago. SimplyGold was a good example. She came right back at me and we ended up having a good dialogue. I do agree totally that biting sarcasm and personal attacks are totally out of order and when someone, without provocation, does that he/she should be immediately censored by a moderator. (Sorry Pete but that’s just what YOU didn’t do  ). Of course it would be preferable imo to adopt something akin to Serenity's (or my) ideas for certain criteria to be fulfilled before full participation. But in PIP i am told that this isn't likely to happen, as you say over there, "anytime soon". Not ok to be harsh Hush but maybe, as i say, rather blunter and shorter than you'd be in real life where you presumably have some social intercourse with the other person before getting down to critiques ... lol. Sorry not to cover your other points right now Hush - “I'll be back” - as a current Governor once said. Serenity Karen, i of course know your e-mail having "chatted" to you before . I'll be right back to you in a couple of hours or less.Later R |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
“ In my judgement, what she was asking me for wasn't what she was prepared to get.” And that surely is the point Hush. In real life because you knew her and because you were standing there face to face you could MAKE that judgement. All I have to go off online is 4 years experience of dealing with first time posters in critical forums. “And my point was that maybe that's the case here sometimes, too?” Possibly sometimes. But I think people like your friend are a tiny minority. I simply can’t accept that people don’t have any inkling what they are letting themselves into when they post at a CRITICAL ANALYSIS forum. “*chuckle* right, Rob... no, nothing so high-brow. And I'm afraid you glorify even my paltry position... it wasn't some booty-shaking, dimly lit club... it was me and another guy tapping our feet at some bar with like, 4 people in it waiting for some customers to show up. It didn't happen.” Awww and there was I thinking that you were the new female version of Tony Blackburn (lol.. that dates and locates me all in one. I bet you have no idea who he is?) “And here's where I think some people run into a bit of trouble. Younger or newer poets may be in such a hurry to post, and be so anxious for feedback (and I think you may be right, at least in some cases, about the assurance-seeking... it's what I was doing when I first started, and to a degree, what I do now. Heh.. you should have seen how pissed I was when they shredded something I posted at pffa a couple years ago... and I didn't even post it in the 'high' critique area... but I digress) that they don't pay as much attention to forum description and the nature of the posts going on?” Maybe maybe .. but still I think in the vast majority of cases they post here because they really WANT to test their poetic skill. They know darned well that they are not posting to an Open type forum. Can I digress? Being a fool the only poem I ever posted in pffa was in Merciless - it wasn’t particularly good and I think I got off lightly because I’d posted a few ok’ish crits including one for the great Garyg - wow that sounds like a swear word here! Kinda like invoking lucifer in a monastery ... lol) “And, I daresay, it's easy to spot these people. I also say that it's important to, at the very least, give them a gentle introduction and especially to refer them to reading other posts, maybe give them particular links to a post you think is very demonstrative of the types of interaction that usually go on here?” Again you might be right, but more times than not you do all that and they either don’t respond or they just aren’t interested. I’d really like to see people have a go at a few comments themselves and then RESPOND to the ones they get. Nothing hacks me off more than writing a long crit and then silence! Just a “thank you” is a start. For a great example of how to behave as a newcomer see Merc. “Worked with her more thoroughly, but, gauging her skill level and ability to learn, take on a teaching rather than critic role.” Well that’s not exactly what I meant. You and she are sitting in a circle of eight students with the teacher in the middle. The teacher turns to you and says “So Hush, what did you think of Linda’s poem?”. I don’t think you just reply, “I liked it” do you? Surely you wade on in there and say what you think about it. The teaching bit comes when it then becomes apparent from her response that she is clueless. And if her response is simply petulance in that environment then she was wrong to enrol and the sooner she leaves the better. Some people think they ARE poets, and when they discover other people don’t think so they then have no real interest in working to BECOME poets. R |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Hush, Poetically, critique her on the level she is at. How would you critique a child? I would imagine that your praise would be heavy and your correction light, because you recognize a different level of ability. This is dealing with people as people, not the typical knee-jerk response that we often find on forums like this. (I'm not referring to you here, or any individual, it's just easier to have an "across the board" approach when there are no faces to see). She is more important than her poetry ... and your service to her will be rewarding if looked at in that way. Though I'm not saying you can't be honest too. Stephen. |
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Magnus
since 2001-10-10
Posts 14135South Carolina, USA |
I came into this late....you will also see that I don't frequent CA very often... I started writing poetry approx 3 years ago. I have written a few Sestinas, Villanelles, a Haiku and Senryu a few times.... A number of sonnets that I feel were very very close to being correct as the rules of sonnets go. Free verse or prose....rhyming poetry with 8/8 8/6 and 10/10 meter ... I sometimes forget what a Quatrain is.... I have to think hard about what Iambic Pentameter is sometimes... Basically, even I still have a long way to go before I feel the least bit qualified to be a critic of poetry... I am not hurt by comments regarding my poems because the first thing I will do is break out my poetry gouge, an Anthology book which talks about various types of poetry...and read.... When I first started posting, I thought to myself...."Mannn, I am really doing great at writing poetry, I should go get myself published"...or words to that effect... For the record, I am still writing, I have never been published....and I am still open to criticism....but I assure you of this... if you desire to be a critic....be certain that you understand the dynamics before you start telling someone of their technical inaccuracies... And for the record...none of what I am speaking is directed toward anyone or any commment herein.... I submitted a poem for critique about the time I started writing....(another forum) It was a poem called "A Child Is"... I think it is inthe archives... as one of my first posts ever... I review it periodically... It shows me how much I have grown as a poet. Additionally, a very cynical person sat down and dissected that poem... He pointed out every meter problem....4 lines of verse might have a count of 9,12,8,10...or something along those lines... It was a brutal critique, very unemotional on his part....but, it served a very useful purpose.... I went out, bought books and started learning early... and that helped.... And I still won't critique poetry in depth...(I am not qualified to do so)... and I feel that some poets that are new...are looking for that magic number...or pot of gold, so to speak and sometimes think they are gonna get all sorts of accolades for their new poems because they feel so confident... CA is a very useful tool, but people have to be ready for critique...and not be looking for all sorts of great words about their poem... Until they have done the work and have learned a lot....a great amount... Thanx...and as I said...this is just my own opinion....directed nowhere, and toward no one. Barry....AKA Magnus... [This message has been edited by Magnus (10-26-2003 08:56 PM).] |
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colifer Junior Member
since 2003-09-20
Posts 37Ohio |
i just joined the critical analysis list and have gotten just one reply...is it because you guys are still talking about whether to be nice or not???? is that why you guys are afraid to critique the new guys,including me? C'mon!!!! someone critique us instead of talkign abut critiquing us!!! i'm begging for feedback here! |
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Temptress
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-06-15
Posts 7136Mobile, AL |
Hush.. I just want to say thank you for bringing this up for discussion. I think you have some very healthy points and questions. by the way...I love your critique request. I always wonder how to get into it deeply without trying to rewrite the whole thing.  I don't post in here. I'm terrified of putting my work in here, but I do think that the feedback I've gotten in other parts of the forum has helped my poetry grow over the years I have been here. colifer, Be calm. I believe this forum isn't as fast paced as some of our other forums here. Actually, I think a discussion on critique is very healthy for a Critical Analysis forum. Laters all! I LOVE YOU! I LOVE YOU! I LOVE YOU! |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Colifer - please check your email. Thank you. |
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Magnus
since 2001-10-10
Posts 14135South Carolina, USA |
I would be interested in knowing if there are any poets at PiP who have the technical ability to properly critique a poem that is written to be Celtic verse? Personally, I am not...therefore I shall not do an injustice to the author by pretending to be knowledgeable enough to offer a critical review that would be justified... Now, if the desire is for one to dissect the poem and make critical remarks regarding the layout of the poem....the interest that the lines draw/does not draw...the correctness of basic grammatical construction, whether or not the ending lines carry power and leave the reader in interest...then I think those issues can be addressed...beyond that, I will defer to someone that carries the credentials to be of merit in the critique process.. |
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Joyce Johnson
since 2001-03-10
Posts 9912Washington State |
In this case where she is obviously never going to be accomplished no matter what you say, the only thing to do is to find some nice thing to truthfully say about it. If it touched you, say so. Were she a talented peson who could use little help then you would be kind to give her some even though you might have to say some negative things. Your example just needs friendly interst. Joyce |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
quote: Joyce, I understand where that comes from but I don't believe you could reasonably say never. The rest of your comments do seem appropriate enough though. |
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merlynh Member
since 1999-09-26
Posts 411deer park, wa |
Your a kind person Hush beyond your years, bless you. |
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