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merc
Junior Member

since 2003-10-15

Posts 35

0 posted 2003-10-21 05:55 PM

The formatting was a little hard to get on the forum post, but I think I've finally done it. I hope that anyone who reads this, will, with great ferocity, tear it to pieces.

Praying for Bastards

Born and bred
an atheists son
with atheist feelings
and atheist fun
Reared and read
of atheist schemes
by atheist kings
with atheist dreams

What of fathers golden touches
hardened by heathens and holding crutches
What if the father is actually true
what if he's trying to guide us all through

Then you shall see
a litter of sinners
pushing each other
through thicker and thinner
Then you shall see
with bibles and guns
the daughters of winter

the bastard sons

peaceful_dreamer
Member

since 2003-04-25

Posts 159
SoMeWhErE oVeR tHe RaInBoW

1 posted 2003-10-21 08:34 PM

Wow. This is really good. I love how it begins. I got of confused toward the end...
very well done!

there are 2 ways of spreading light: to be the candle, or the mirror that reflects it. -unknown

Essorant
Member Elite

since 2002-08-10

Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada

2 posted 2003-10-22 02:33 PM

I deleted I'm sorry

[This message has been edited by Essorant (10-22-2003 02:34 PM).]

hush
Senior Member

since 2001-05-27

Posts 1653
Ohio, USA

3 posted 2003-10-22 03:59 PM

I think this is a little better than most 'praying for the godless' types of poems... a little less bible-thumpin, and, actually, a little more subtle.

But not by much.

Now, your repetition in the first two verses works for me... usually I don't care for so much repetition, but it seems to create a good cadence here.

An issue with possesives... should be: 'an atheist's son'

Now, the problem I have is this. What are an atheist's feelings? An atheist's fun? I know atheists, and I'm an agnostic, and are we really so different from die-hard believers? I mean, I like roller-coasters... and so people who believe in God. What's the big difference? Is my love different from that of a theist's love?

More importantly that all that... how?

I mean, you could argue that the love of someone who believes in God is more fleshed out than that of someone who doesn't, right? Or, conversely, I could argue that I love my family and friends more fiercely than a theist, because I don't subordinate my love of other poeple to my love of God. There are specific and pointed issues here that you completely overlook when you subsume them in 'atheist feelings.'

What atheist schemes, what atheist kings?

Now this stanza:

'What of fathers golden touches
          hardened by heathens and holding crutches
            What if the father is actually true
       what if he's trying to guide us all through'

I feel is very cliche, especially the last two lines. Your other rhymes worked much better than this.

'Then you shall see
                            a litter of sinners
                                          pushing each other
                        through thicker and thinner'

A litter? Try not to alienate the reading audience so much. I prefer not to be lumped together with animals in my offspring status, thank-you-very-much.

Thicker and thinner? Seems like you've added the -er just to have something rhyme. Doesn't really mean anything to me here, and it seems forced.

'Then you shall see
          with bibles and guns
    the daughters of winter

                   the bastard sons'

I don't understand this... do "I" (since you chose to use 'you' in the poem, asserting something that "I" may not necessarily see...) see with bibles and guns (that sounds kinda scary, don't it?) or are the daughters and sons with bibles and guns?

I would suggest that you amplify what you mean in the first half, by not generalizing.

I would then suggest that you seriously edit the middle part (maybe expand on the idea that 'heathens' -but not necessarily using such a negative word- hurt God by starying away from his loving touches) while slicing down on the sentimental mish-mash of the 'guide us through' bit.

And in the last part, tone down your accusatory tone. Do you think poeple like to be called a 'litter of sinners?' It's not very conducive to getting them to hear your point of view, really. I think focusing in on the bastard sons bit might work, but you should flesh out the idea of having no father... why is being fatherless such a bad thing? Don't think it's understood... your ideas may be very different than mine.

And, one last thing... while I really appreciate your inclusiveness of women in the daughter's line... it seems so out of place here, in a poem of primarily male imagery. This really strikes me as a father (God) and son poem... and I suprise myself by encouraging you to keep it that way, since I'm all in favor of gender-inclusive religious language (in fact, I think it's necessary) but I also don't think that men retaining special relationships between themselves is a bad thing, and here, it seems very appropriate.

Hope I've helped.

Essorant
Member Elite

since 2002-08-10

Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada

4 posted 2003-10-22 04:52 PM

Merc,

I enjoyed the rhyme and rhythm of your piece.  But everything else was unpleasant to my poetic taste.   It seemed you were striving more for an effect rather than a sense and meaning with the overall piece.

         "with bibles and guns
    the daughters of winter

                   the bastard sons"

That sounds like something one may hear being sung in a modern music video; vain coupling of very contrary symbols to give a stroke of eloquence but no direct sense to hold onto as far as reason and purpose that I may clearly wit.

In other words I just don't see the matter through the art.

           "Then you shall see
                a litter of sinners"

So we are blind otherwise?  Atheists and bastard don't see what sin is?
Who are the sinners?  The Atheists for being atheists?  The bastards for being bastards and or atheists too?   I am a bastard by the way I was born so am I a sinner because of that?  There are some atheists at this forum, are they sinners?  I don't know what you are calling negative and what you are postive, actually.  It strikes me confused.

"daughters of winter"

Again, this is artful, but what does it mean?

If you are going to use fair and lightsome cadence, a casual gait, why choose such an unpleasant charge to bear?  I don't think you carry the charge here to any light.

Essorant

[This message has been edited by Essorant (10-22-2003 05:49 PM).]

merc
Junior Member

since 2003-10-15

Posts 35

5 posted 2003-10-22 06:23 PM

Wow, amazing feedback on this.  I was beginning to think no one was going to comment on it.

Few things I'd like to say quickly, The title "praying for bastards" is actually the title of a book of poetry that one of my old english professors published.  Though I was never able to read the book the title always intrigued me and I tried to write this to focus my thoughts.

As is evident in your critiques it comes off as if the author doesn't know what he thinks.  Which is exactly true.  But your critiques actually gave me great insight into the effect some lines have, the effectiveness of some of the technicalities, and what lines were just crap.

I was really at a dead end with this just based on my confusion, but i'm starting to develop some more concrete ideas now that I've studied your feedback a bit more.

I'll post a revision as soon as I find the time to devote to rewriting it.

Also, I always try to be very conscious of gender inclusion/exclusion within my writing and I find it rather difficult to be fair all the time.  Anyone else have a comment as to wether the female references are suited to this poem or not?

Thanks again to everyone who posted on this piece, I appreciate it. By the way, I am and atheist and a bastard-child.

merc

hush
Senior Member

since 2001-05-27

Posts 1653
Ohio, USA

6 posted 2003-10-23 01:08 PM

That's interesting, because when I read the first stanzas, I was wondering if this was written from the atheist perspective. Now, the shift of tone in the second and third parts here led me to believe it was a born-again sort of poem, and the atheist's father was doomed for being an atheist, and all atheists without their proper father (God) were inherently sinners...

Is this a sarcastic commentary, or an honest attempt to write from the other point of view?

merc
Junior Member

since 2003-10-15

Posts 35

7 posted 2003-10-23 02:13 PM

I'll try to explain what I think as best as I can.

As I said before I'm an athiest but wether god is real or not has no bearing on the fact that his influence, in any particular form, has shaped the world.  Further, religeous belief will most likely be the driving factor in the next hundred years of history; as ideology was the driving factor in the last hundred.

I think it was the pythagorans who drew it like this.  They made a chart that listed wether or not god was real and wether or not your believe in god.  If you follow god and he's real then your in heaven.  If you follow him and he's fake then no big deal. If you don't follow god and he's real then your in hell, and if you don't believe and he's fake then no difference.

So, mathematically it's much better to believe in god, you either get heaven or nothing as opposed to hell or nothing.

This always struck me as funny, and I guess that's what I'm trying to say here in a certain sense.  I don't believe in god, and I know if he does exist I'll probably end up in hell, but I'm not going to believe out of fear.

Now once religeous wars enter into the picture it's a whole differant story so I won't get into that.

I'm still playing with my views on this though.

merc
Junior Member

since 2003-10-15

Posts 35

8 posted 2003-10-23 03:42 PM

I have posted a revision of this poem, please close this thread.

Not A Poet
Member Elite

since 1999-11-03

Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA

9 posted 2003-10-23 05:12 PM

Closed at author's request.

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