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Critical Analysis #2
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Reasons to Keep Walking
| Critical Analysis #2 |
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Reasons to Keep Walking |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart 
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Reasons to Keep Walking…  October is like this when a late afternoon walk makes you appreciate the half-warm, half-cool sides of you, dependent [already] on which is sun-side up, when turning in circles is the only answer. Somewhere out there, a train runs through the town, marking time in miles. I still find me stepping to miss sidewalk cracks, even though that back is no longer here to bear any burden I might lay upon it, so these still in need thoughts, well, I keep them to myself for this is October readying me when a day in November will hold me quiet, like clichéd fine crystal framing that green glint from her eyes I remember so well… In this week’s end, a fall into autumn will expect me to find that in nine, I shall still be here, in health, expecting even more years to greet me, and I won’t fear any familial predisposition or a too-early demise… so, I will wander my week’s end in reds and golds, wave goodbye to green and pull grains of life to me, not in fear of anything, just sorry she’s not here to count the growing smiles she left behind. |
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| © Copyright 2003 Karilea Rilling Jungel - All Rights Reserved | |||
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Nice tribute. Although unstated, the object was clear. I also saw an extended metaphor in relating October to aging. Sometimes it feels more like November already though. It may just be me but I thought "familial predisposition" was a bit unpoetic, felt too big and scientific. Thanks, Pete |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
overall.. nicely written, though I find my own nits to pick with certain wording and with the beginning in particular. I agree with Pete as well about that particular phrasing being too scientific and not as poetic perhaps as the rest. I may visit this again..when I have a bit more time and be specific with the nits..lol.. you know me weel enough to know me and my nits.... so we shall see. |
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Local Parasite
since 2001-11-05
Posts 2527Transylconia, Winnipeg |
I think it's funny that you posted something in Critical Analysis with a photo in it. How very open-poetry of you.  Sure, I'll critique, but don't get mad. quote: This is common language. I'd advise against overusing it in poetry, as it seems like you have, in this part of the poem. I'm not biased against free-versists---it's perfectly possible to write free verse without the use of common language. To me it just adds a bit of a casual quality, which should never be welcome in poetry which wishes to be taken seriously. quote: That's the kind of thing I wish you had more of in this poem---specific, concrete imagery. If you would have described more about the "town," instead of using less concrete phrases, I think I would have found this poem to be more effective. You also used a lot of ellipsis. Those can seem like kind of a juvenile attempt at adding depth to your poetry---kind of a blatant way of saying "there's words behind the words." I think that your words themselves should be trusted to have that effect without the use of ellipsis. Just my opinion, though. Overall, this is rather well-written, I'd just wish a shift in language and more concretization in order to improve it. This would have been very effective if you built your setting, and used that to tell your feelings, instead of laying them out flat. Just my opinion--- Brian Faith is a fine invention |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
Brian.... would you expand on this for me? it's perfectly possible to write free verse without the use of common language. To me it just adds a bit of a casual quality, which should never be welcome in poetry which wishes to be taken seriously. |
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Local Parasite
since 2001-11-05
Posts 2527Transylconia, Winnipeg |
Sure, Ron.  Of course this is just my opinion, but there's a very distinct difference between conversational language and poetic language. William Wordsworth would have disagreed with me, he tried very hard to assert the idea that poetry should be written in the "language of men," and yet, he still didn't even do it himself. The furthest he ever got was the "vocab of men." The purpose of poetry, at least "poetry which is meant to be taken seriously," as I've called it (maybe wrongly), is different from that of common conversation and as such, the language must differ. I'm sure we've all done it, as poets... used some strange poetic phrase in common conversation, and gotten a very weird look for it. If I said to you, "Somewhere out there, a train runs through the town, marking time in miles," you'd look at me strangely---because my eye here is not on conveying an immediate and practical understanding to you, but rather, asking you to think in a different way in order to understand what it is that I am saying. I am directing you not only at the meaning of my words but, at an image, which doesn't wholly answer its own meaning. Poetry is not a practical means of communication. But that doesn't mean it is useless. The language of poetry differs from conversation in its goal, and therefore its structure... I hope that's clearer, feel free to argue with me. |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
Actually Brian... you could say to me "Somewhere out there, a train runs through the town, marking time in miles," and I wouldn't look at you funny at all but then again..who said I was normal. I do tend to disagree with you in part, because I think life is poetry..and life happens in common language and in common terms as well as in the educated and the more obscure. Common language... even the term seems to denote some sort of placing poetry above the common man, which I tend to have an issue with on several levels. LOL... I personally love words... and love the ways they can be used to convey any number of things depending on how they are ordered or structured in a phrase, yet, I find that if the goal of the poet..is art for arts sake, that only the few ( relative term) who study art for arts sake may get it or benefit from it. If the goal of a poet is to reach an audience and to perhaps help the audience on a broader sense not only appreciate words and poetry..then a common language approach may make more sense. By your definitions..as I understand them.. then the poets of the Western United States, who might write of life on the ranch or of everyday occurances and use the common language to convey the impressions are not poets who write"poetry which is meant to be taken seriously,". Hmmmm... ... [This message has been edited by Cpat Hair (10-15-2003 12:51 PM).] |
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Local Parasite
since 2001-11-05
Posts 2527Transylconia, Winnipeg |
That's correct. Then again, I think that most contemporary "art" has taken a serious plunge ever since someone came along with the "art for art's sake" philosophy (wasn't it Walter Pater?) The word "poetry" has likewise been subject to some serious mistreatment. Be it meaningless post-modernist crap or inapplicable this-is-how-I-feel free verse, it's really tragic that "individual" and "universal" so seldom find each other in poetry anymore. I'm sorry if this sounds hostile. I think there's some wonderful poetry at piptalk, as well as some very talented writers. It just bothers me how liberal people are about the word "poetry" nowadays. [This message has been edited by Local Parasite (10-15-2003 01:09 PM).] |
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Marty Baird Member
since 2003-09-20
Posts 90Georgia, U.S. |
For what its worth I enjoyed your poem and felt the picture added to it. I have a lot to learn about what makes a good poem. However believe any aide that adds depth to a work is positive. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Sunshine, Hi there. This worked for me very well. You've captured the mood of many things all at once. And as a freevers it does feel "free" in movement unlike many freeverses out there. May I suggest doing away with the elipsis in the title, as the title to my thinking, draws the reader very well on its own. Also I'm not sure about "cliched" before "crystal" How about "common" or "quaint" or "curious" (to keep the alliteration too). Just a suggestion. A pleasure to read. [This message has been edited by Essorant (10-15-2003 03:19 PM).] |
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Sudhir Iyer Member Ascendant
since 2000-04-26
Posts 6943Mumbai, India : now in Belgium |
Hi Karilea, Firstly let me reiterate this is a fine write... much enjoyed reading this ... but since I am here and have some time in hand (which is rare) I would like to pass my sincere remarks/opinions/suggestions... that is, if you don't mind so here we go... quote: I like the start very much; it filled me with anticipation of what was to follow. but I would change a few things - you know my line breaks and word choices are different … also the [already] didn’t actually appeal to me too much… and I can’t decide whether to keep the “turning in circles is the only answer” part or not … so I would still keep it but repeat the first two lines … My version of the stanza might be: October is like this when a late afternoon walk makes you welcome the half-warm, half-cool sides of you dependent on which feels light October is like this when turning in circles is the only answer quote: great metaphor … the train.. the town… the travelling, the growing, the counting, the marking again my stanza might be: Somewhere out there a train runs through the town marking time in miles chiefly because I felt the need to pause between ‘runs’ and ‘through’ ... like pausing during long leisurely late afternoon walks quote: I think I would rewrite this part, for though LP says the language seems simplistic, (atleast to me) the message is a bit confusing. It needed you to use the bold typeface to point the reader (don’t you think so?)… a question: does ‘back’ intend to mean ‘the past’ and ‘strength’ at the same time? also, the ‘it’ after upon seems unnecessary: as you can see between the words between the commas “even though that back is no longer here to bear any burden I might lay upon it” also what about using "steering clear of sidewalk cracks" (to me) steer and clear sounds nicer … quote: I thought first “emerald” and then esmeralda and then beyond with mind holding great images… maybe, I can see the green glint far too well… Changing not much at all, I might write this as: for this is October readying me for a November day that will hold me quiet like clichéd fine crystal framing that green glint from her eyes I remember so well… quote: I think I agree with Pete about ‘familial predisposition’… for the rest, I won’t change much at all… I think the ellipsis here is perhaps not warranted… also, I find too many commas in this stanza… quote: liked the ending just as liked the start… very much… wouldn’t change much at all (except line breaks, alternative words etc.. – knowing me!!!) Many thanks for the pleasure of reading you and a chance to opine Regards, Sudhir [This message has been edited by Sudhir Iyer (10-15-2003 03:30 PM).] |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
LP, quote:was that intended to be a "smart-ass" remark or did it just come over that way?  Pete |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Well as a matter of fact I thought it was rather "Open Poetry" as well, but then it was a nice pic and a pretty good poem so I decided not to make any sarcastic remarks. Which must be a first for me. |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
First, let me thank you all for coming in, and for those of you who kept parallel conversations on the subject at hand. I'll do my best to provide responses to all of you. Pete, yes, this was a tribute. Happens this time of year, for very personal reasons. I wondered about the use of "familial disposition" but at the time the sound of it felt good as it came off my tongue. However, it does stick out, doesn't it? I'll work on that. ~*~ Cpat, waiting for your nits. And picks. And points.  ~*~ Brian, I know when you are kidding, as I've been around you long enough to know when you want to pull Mom's leg. So I didn't take your point on "open-poetry" personally, although you probably remember a discussion where I told you that was a big hurdle for me to get over - taking things personally. I must be learning something, yes? Common language. Now, while I appreciate this comment, I have also been told by others to "not write over the heads" of readers. What a conundrum. How best to attack and keep from writing "common language" while not going over heads? A thought to ponder. I'll work on the imagery. I liked that train line, myself. As for the ellipsis, you should get inside my head sometime. Talk about leaving threads of discussion inside there and coming back to pick them up again. Ellipsis, while not "poetically correct" [or is that grammatically correct?] personally leave me with a good feeling - like I've invited someone into my poem and they know I'll come back to converse with them. However, I can also see where that can be quite irritating to others. Tell me, please, when it is appropriate to use ellipsis? Or, should I avoid them like a bad cliche? Thanks for your valuable input. ~*~ Marty, thank you for reading, and for your comment. I know we should not rely on visual photographic images to write a poem; rather, I guess I should say, we should write the poem as if the photo could disappear and the poem would still be seen in its entirety. But I have to admit, I enjoy the fact that Ron has given us the ability to put both arts together.  ~*~ Essorant, thank you for your input. I purposely wanted the poem to include the word cliched before "fine crystal" as I seem to find those two words together in a lot of modern poetry, and I personally recognize it as a cliche. If I were to change it, I would probably use your suggestion of "quaint". Thank you! ~*~ Sudhir, my friend, thank you for taking so much time to break apart the poem. I appreciate all of your comments. I agree, I could use some help on line breaks. In the first stanza, the use of [already] is used to pinpoint how fast time goes. [Didn't we just celebrate New Years? Seems like it. Didn't we just pass into the new century. Thought so. Didn't she just leave me? Eleven years ago. Seems like yesterday.] However, your comment is good. A poem shouldn't need an explanation, which, in essence, you may be saying it needs in order to explain [already]. The line with the train is purposeful in two ways - to visually give one the length of the train. When I look at those lines, I can visualize the train passing through the town. I personally wouldn't want to have to change those lines. The sidewalk stanza, as both you and LP point out, IS simplistic in nature. In referring to the childhood rhyme of not stepping on a crack or you'll break your mother's back. So, again, perhaps simple is best for this stanza. I'll work on familial disposition. I'm glad you enjoyed the last stanza. Wonder what would happen to this poem if I left just the first and last stanzas and scrapped everything else? Thanks, Sudhir!~*~ Pete, see above. ~*~ Robtm1965 - if you do have some input, I'd very much appreciate reading your thoughts. Thanks! |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
I fully understand the "time of year thing." My time was a couple of months ago. A wise friend told me, "no matter how old or sophisticated you may become, you're never quite ready to become an orphan." Having come from a spit family, I have now experienced that 3 times and it never gets easy. With all that said, I think it would be very easy to let such a poem slip into syrupy sweetness and thus mediocrity. To your credit, you have kept this one well above that level. I think it is something almost anyone could appreciate, especially those in similar circumstances. BTW, I was not offended or put off at all by the photo. To the contrary, I rather enjoyed it as it helped to set the mood for the writing. And I never thought LP's jab was at you but at this forum instead. Pete |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
From: [http://www.sinc-ic.org/workshop/grammar.shtml] Ellipses They are valid punctuation marks used to indicate the omission of a word or the interruption of a sentence. Always make sure it is an ellipse you need and not a dash and please don’t overuse them. Don Marquis once wrote about ellipses in this fashion: "When you see . . . three little dots . . . such as these . . . in the stuff of a modern versifier . . . even in our stuff . . . it means that the writer is trying to suggest something rather . . . well, elusive, if you get what we mean . . . and the reason he suggests it instead of expressing it . . . is . . . very often . . . because it is an almost idea . . . instead of a real idea." -- Auriel Douglas and Michael Strumpf, Webster’s New World Guide to Punctuation, Prentice-Hall, 1988. |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Pete, spot on. We're orphans. Not fun. As for LP, he was just jabbing me because I Mom him a lot. He loves this Forum. I know, because he dragged my reluctant self in here.  ~*~ That would do it, Essorant. Either I have an idea, or I don't. This is going to be a terrible habit to break! ACK! Thanks! |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
I do understand what Essy is saying about the elipses. I suppose the statement probably contains a lot of truth. I happen to like the little things and do use them often. I agree the advice to do so sparingly is exceptionally good advice though. The reasons I use them are 1) to indicate that more was to be said but was not for whatever reason or a stop in mid-thought(that one is valid) and 2) to indicate a longer pause than can be forced otherwise (I don't think that is a proper use but, sue me )Pete |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
ROFL...Pete, I wouldn't sue you [even though I could...for what? Illegal and unconscionable use of an ellipsis? "Your Honor, the damage that he incurred upon my poetic soul was to leave my thought of his poem and its intent hanging in mid-air..."] So I PROMISE I will TRY to use them with discretion. Maybe. Possibly. ACK |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Well, like I said, I use the darn little things because, I like 'em. Looks like something we have in common |
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Local Parasite
since 2001-11-05
Posts 2527Transylconia, Winnipeg |
I'll cure the mystery for all of you and explain my own remark a little bit. It wasn't a jab at anything. It's just that, I get the idea that people use pictures to add to the reader's experience, and fluff up their poetry a little bit. You see it a lot in Open Poetry. But having it in Critical Analysis is kind of pointless unless you drew the picture or something. It's kind of implying that you intend to simply allow the reader to enjoy your writing (as Open Poetry tends to go for), instead of asking for critical insight. The picture isn't something I think you could really critique, and even if you did, it wouldn't be at all helpful to do so, would it? That's why I found it kind of funny. I also half-thought it to be an intended irony, adding the open-poetry element to her own post in Critical Analysis. I certainly never meant it to be taken as a shot at anyone, or any forum... just that the nature of CA doesn't seem to be such that you'd add a lot of tinsel to your writing, and I've never seen it before in here, is all... whereas it's rampant in Open. Wow, even reading over what I just wrote, it's hard for me not to sound rude. Hope I'm not taken as intending to offend anyone, that's just a clearing-up of a remark that seems to have been taken in the way I never intended it to be. No wonder I'm a poet.  No worries---I love Mom, she knows it. And don't I look cute in her new picture? Aww...Faith is a fine invention When gentlemen can see But microscopes are prudent In an emergency. ~~~Emily Dickinson [This message has been edited by Local Parasite (10-16-2003 12:30 AM).] |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
No offense taken |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
Well Pete said I could come visit and leave a footprint as it were, so here I am. I wanted to say I loved the image this poem left me with and loved how I felt it related the month to aging. For what it's worth I love "openish poetry with pretty pictures" but Brian is right - that is exactly why I use them - to fluff up my fluff that is not as good as some. Really enjoyed this one Karilea. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Thanks for coming Mysteria |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
ah.. I believe my nits have been addressed with the other's comments and my points..lol.. would be of little value. The use of more concrete imagery would be my largest "critique" of the piece as with just a few changes to wording and adding I think it would indeed be strengthened. |
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emancipated1 Junior Member
since 2006-01-08
Posts 16 |
enjoyed the write and TY 4 the welcome to Passions in Poetry |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Emancipated, thank you for your comment. I was supprised to see this very old...poem {smiling at Pete] pop back to the top. |
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Kathy Member
since 2006-02-10
Posts 153 |
Ah...Autumn, my favorite time of year! what a loely poem you have written about it. And...as, I regress: "Autumn" Now the night-time steals away, as timid morning swirls the floating mists, the ripened corn, the chimney smoke in curls. Dew-covered grass asparkle in the infant light. Golden leaves glide softly toward the ground, in silent flight. The Maple and the Blackoak, each catch a yellow ray... their tops explode in red and orange and shout out, "Autumn Day". |
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Martie
Moderator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-09-21
Posts 28049California |
Now, how did I miss this?? Sissie, I just wanted to say to you what you said to me about a certain poem of mine. I hope you don't mind me quoting you: "...if I were forced to find one poem of yours that speaks of determination, strength purpose you this is it."  |
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