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merlynh
Member
since 1999-09-26
Posts 411
deer park, wa

0 posted 2003-09-27 05:22 PM



Who's crying th..ah got a du..dp in life.
Ah they saying cows fly.
I got hit- the- hardest.

I tell them we are
v.e.r.y s.m.a.l.l
in the stream of life.
Who's to make scene of all?

Oh's to say they say
I can n.o.t. breath because of what is happening to me.
Can't you hear?
They scream!

I h.e.a.r.
I can re-late
I just jump out of the same lake.

I don't know if?
I like the water many ever more.
Or even anymore.

It's time to take a waking look around
Change my way of thinking.

"Goin change my way of thinking.   Can't take it anymore"--Bob Daylan

"When writing the English language correctly, how implicty even the learned obey, I think
'Any fool can make a rule,
And every fool will mind it.'"--Henry Thoreau

Edited, mistakes were done intentionally.



© Copyright 2003 merlynh - All Rights Reserved
Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
1 posted 2003-09-27 11:54 PM


Coloring outside the lines is one thing. Writing an incomprehensible stream of unrelated words is quite another. I can understand this:
quote:
'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.


"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!"

but I'm afraid yours is beyond hope. I don't think it will ever sell


Pete

Never express yourself more clearly than you can think - Niels Bohr

Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704

2 posted 2003-09-28 07:01 AM


'The skill of writing is to create a context in which other people can think.'

So said Edwin Schlossberg  - who's he? I have no idea. However, I just grabbed a quote out of structural context to counter your quote from Mr Thoreau.

It's dangerous doing that sometimes - taking things out of context and applying them as golden rools...or should that be rules

My questions to you - what are you trying to achieve with this piece? Is there anything you are saying?

(Or have you perhaps had a run-in with Gertrude Stein?)

K

Midnitesun
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Empyrean
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647
Gaia
3 posted 2003-09-28 10:49 AM


me understandeth

wishing you safe passage through the changes

merlynh
Member
since 1999-09-26
Posts 411
deer park, wa
4 posted 2003-09-30 03:25 PM


Thoreau's Jornal Feb. 3, 1860.  Thoreau is one of my favorite authors.

I didn't write this piece of work to publish. The work is the example of the crap people complain about trying to get you to understand their way of thinking.  I know it is a bit extreme, but so is their fixed intention that they are not aware of.

Thank you for you replies.

Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704

5 posted 2003-10-01 08:04 AM


Read Walden? I just love Walden...

As to the rest - let me rephrase you and see if I get this correct. The poem expresses what you see as the way other people convey how they are thinking? And how their intent is extreme, just as the poem is?

You might need to elaborate on that one for me...

K


Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
6 posted 2003-10-01 09:54 AM


That is what happens when you avoid the rules too much!  You see, the rules are there so that an impression may be at least generally an outwardly understandable expression. But when people decide they may do whatever they please with grammar,  meaning, and structure, by their own arbitration, then their expressions soon become only understandable to themselves.  There are traditions and rules that have remained with us for the more part because they are wise, not because they are foolish, either follow them and most likely find more wisdom, or avoid them and fall into doubt and folly.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (10-01-2003 09:57 AM).]

Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704

7 posted 2003-10-01 11:46 PM


Ess - 'fall into doubt and folly.' Doubt and folly? OMG I'm so laughing so hard, I'm sorry - I've just had a terrible image of a word-sinner falling into the pit of ungrammatical hell...

A deep voice intones: 'You will suffer forever for your sins against grammar! Now you will think for all eternity about your doubt and folly!'

Flashes of lightning, booming thunder etc...

We really do need to have a chat about how a lack of grammar and punctuation can actually work sometimes.

Really, it can - I promise.

(shoot me later hon)

K


merlynh
Member
since 1999-09-26
Posts 411
deer park, wa
8 posted 2003-10-02 01:47 PM


Essorant, I would rather fall into doubt and folly and let my creavtive mind work.

"The grammarian is often one who can neither cry nor laugh, yet thinks he can express human emotions"--From the journal of Henry Thoreau.


Severn, I find Walden not anywhere near the transcendentalist Thoreau was by his writings.  I feel you may have been blessed with character given to great writer.

"Essentially, your truest poetic sentence is as free and lawless as a lamb's bleat."--From the journal of Henry Thoreau.


Essorant
Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada
9 posted 2003-10-02 02:11 PM


Lol
I still think it is more mind over matter.
One has knowledge of  Grammar and punctuation, at least in a sense enough, so that when it is small there that is why it seems to work sometimes freely.  So it is still working in that way from grammar to work more without grammar.
But Most of the time it is just one of those things that works right in theory but shall not well in the practice.  For example, consider merlynh's poem.  Does it fare well as poetry?  I appreciate it seeking to make a statement but that statement does not come out very well because the expression is not well-timbered. Merlynh had to write a coherent response and quote Thoreau to try to make up for incoherence of the piece.  That in my opinion is a bit of a poetic weakness.


[This message has been edited by Essorant (10-02-2003 02:14 PM).]

Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704

10 posted 2003-10-02 07:46 PM


Merlynh forgive me for chatting over your head as it were...

Ess - that may well be the case in terms of Merlynh's poem. But is this a reflection that all poetry without grammar is non-successful? Is this even a reflection that as a general rule only some poetry without grammar can be successful?

If I said: 'hill there cat mine on it' you'd understand what I was saying certainly - but it wouldn't make for good poetry (unless you were four maybe, then it could be a work of genius hmmm).

If I said 'hill many black duped cat the' that would make less sense. That's really just a collection of words. Isn't it?


/pip/Forum46/HTML/000719.html

Have a look at that poem I wrote 2 years ago.

Merlynh's taken some whole sentences and completely mixed them up - if not always successfully. The technique used is not new actually - the periods\fullstops breaking words, mispellings, perverting of correct whole sentences etc. It has been done before. Many times. Entire poetic styles are based around it.

If you have the time I have a couple of links Ess:


http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poets/s_z/stein/patriarchal.htm

That's a link to several essays on Gertrude Stein's manner of writing. It is a little heavy going but worth it if you can churn through it - even just one of the essays, or parts of them.


http://www.alb-neckar-schwarzwald.de/surrealism/surrealism.html

A collection of French Surrealist poetry. Good stuff.


http://www.sidereality.com/

A journal of contemporary 'experimental' poetry. Not that scary lol.

And Merlynh if you said what I think you did..that's a big thing to say.    

K

[This message has been edited by Severn (10-02-2003 07:59 PM).]

hush
Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653
Ohio, USA
11 posted 2003-10-03 01:55 AM


While this confused me some, I don't think it is entirely incomprehensible. Now, the first stanza, in my opinion, should go and be replaced with something that fits the context of the rest of the poem a little better...

I like the second stanza. It works for me.

Third stanza... I like:

'Oh's to say they say
I can n.o.t. breath because of what is happening to me.'  

although I don't see the point in using breath over breathe.... what about 'breath e' since you're going for a structural experiment... the 'e' as an afterthought?

'Can't you hear?
They scream!'

Now, this bit seemed out of place... and nevermind my personal peeve about exclamation points in poetry.

'I h.e.a.r.
I can re-late
I just jump out of the same lake.'

Thise is my favorite stanza. The way you've staggered spellings creates a flow I really like... one minor nit. Read it out loud... last line clunks a little... maybe you'd consider omitting 'of'? It reads fine (better) without it.

'I don't know if?
I like the water many ever more.
Or even anymore.'

Makes me think E.E. Cumings. Neat phrasing.

'It's time to take a waking look around
Change my way of thinking.'

Um, feels kind of forced... it's almos too normal in light of the rest of the poem.

I enjoyed... hope I've helped.

Persona
New Member
since 2003-10-03
Posts 9

12 posted 2003-10-03 02:44 AM


Nice, great flow, needs better vocab, but I think the simplness of the vocab fits the style.
merlynh
Member
since 1999-09-26
Posts 411
deer park, wa
13 posted 2003-10-11 06:15 AM


Severn, I truely believe you can hear the characteristic cry of the sheep, the whining, the feeble complaint down in your soul.  It's refreshing to know someone out there also listens with bare feet. I loved your links.  An open mind never runs down, merely gets blocked, than runs faster.

Essorant, The cat jumped on the wall!  Why it fell on it's back and did not laid on it's feet?  Know one will really know.  When it came slapping on it's head, when it came on it's back. Know one will really know. It merely said, "Hey, that's a nice change?"

Take a look at my next post!



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