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Critical Analysis #2
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Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

0 posted 2003-08-18 07:45 PM


My grandfather and I
Searched for arrowheads
And searched for blackberries
Near Mojave riverbeds,
And when the water flowed enough,
And the fish hadn't yet been fished,
We watched the water flow enough
And waited for a line tug.

By that wading line of the pole,
Far from a rail depot,
I found a coin, a buffalo
Coin, smooth and oval,
And we laughed at the man
Who mentioned Nevada or Idaho
And watched the river flow well enough
To be in Nevada or Idaho.

© Copyright 2003 Brad - All Rights Reserved
Legion
Member
since 2003-07-20
Posts 54

1 posted 2003-09-08 04:29 PM



"We are fighting for the inalienable right of humankind -- black or white; Christian or not; left, right or merely indifferent -- to be free -- free to raise a family in love and hope; free to earn a living and be rewarded by your own efforts; free not to bend your knee to any man in fear; free to be you, so long as being you does not impair the freedom of others. That's what we're fighting for, and it's a battle worth fighting. And I know it's hard on America. And in some small corner of this vast country, out in Nevada or Idaho or these places I've never been to but always wanted to go -- (laughter) -- I know out there, there's a guy getting on with his life, perfectly happily, minding his own business, saying to you, the political leaders of this country, "Why me, and why us, and why America?" And the only answer is because destiny put you in this place in history in this moment in time, and the task is yours to do. And our job -- my nation, that watched you grow, that you fought alongside and now fights alongside you, that takes enormous pride in our alliance and great affection in our common bond -- our job is to be there with you. You're not going to be alone. We will be with you in this fight for liberty. We will be with you in this fight for liberty. And if our spirit is right and our courage firm, the world will be with us."

Tony Blair addresses congress.

Is this the man Brad?

I was reading your poem and the speech jumped up and bit me, along with the fact that your poem had zero replies.

I'll try to get back to it when I've taken it all in.

Sunshine
Administrator
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since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354
Listening to every heart
2 posted 2003-09-08 05:08 PM



No critique.  Just awe.
And thanks.

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
3 posted 2003-09-08 07:31 PM


Legion,

As usual, you see where I'm going.

I thought it was a great speech though I was shooting for a bit more than simple agreement.

Sunshine,

Thanks. You know, Michael once accused me of writing an anti-American poem (I was innocent, I tell you, innocent) but I've never written anything about America as such.

Until now.


jbouder
Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash
4 posted 2003-09-09 01:52 PM


Legion:

Thanks for the text of the speech.  I hadn't seen or heard it before and admit that, before reading it, the meaning of the two lines alluding to it escaped me.

Brad:

I liked the poem, but think you should do more to expand on "And we laughed at the man / Who mentioned Nevada or Idaho ..."  I suppose the finding of the buffalo coin (with the profile of a Native American) gives me the sense that the two fisherman are laughing at the irony they hear in Mr. Blair's words.

The problem I'm having with the poem is that I don't believe the effect of the "irony" doesn't make me laugh as much as it makes me feel badly for past wrongs.  I suppose I can see the contrast between what I think the buffalo coin represents and the speech, but I'm not sure I see such a strong connection between the two that would be ironic in my mind.

Maybe I just haven't read the poem in the right light yet.  Dunno.  I don't think I'd characterize it as anti-American though.  What characterizes the American spirit better than the right to have differing opinions ... and to laugh at our statesmen (and others)?

Jim

Legion
Member
since 2003-07-20
Posts 54

5 posted 2003-09-09 01:57 PM


Let me see where to begin….

The arrowheads are a symbol of an earlier native American civilisation, blackberries are synonymous with wilderness along with good fish stocks and high water levels.

Telegraph poles and the railroad are symbols of encroaching civilisation (modern America) along with the coin (the buffalo was a good touch btw ).

America has decimated the native Americans, destroyed the environment with bad land management, bad water management, over fishing and pollution. America hasn’t managed to do anything right so far according to the speaker  in this poem – so what the hell makes Blair believe they’re going to get it right this time.

Well that’s how I read it anyway.

As to the poems structure I have only a couple of minor niggles, the biggest being the fact that water flowing image seemed to be a little overused. It may be that it stands for more than I’m reading into it, it may even be that it’s pivotal to the poem – either way I didn’t read it that way so either my interpretation is at fault or you’ve failed to get the meaning across.

My second niggle is more of a missed opportunity, I would have liked to have seen Blair’s admission that he’d never been to Nevada or Idaho punished with more than a little laughter, I’m sure you could have muddied his slippers a little more than that Brad.

I wish he was in Kansas  

Darn it Jim beat me to it!

[This message has been edited by Legion (09-09-2003 01:59 PM).]

jbouder
Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash
6 posted 2003-09-09 02:08 PM


Legion:

But clearly you (or all of you?) should get credit for the assist.

Jim

P.S. Niggles?

Legion
Member
since 2003-07-20
Posts 54

7 posted 2003-09-09 03:08 PM



It’s a Lancastrian word Jim.

A niggle is a small irritation, similar to a nit without the socially unacceptable undertones - a nit demands to be picked a  niggle on the other hand can be tolerated.

jbouder
Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash
8 posted 2003-09-09 04:22 PM


Ahhh ... I get it.  Nit is to niggle as quip is to quibble (we continental Lancastrians prefer the latter two).

So Brad, please understand that my comments were more quibbles than quips.  I'll stop there before the temptation to type an apalling pun becomes too great.  Better to spend my time trying to write something worthy of this forum.

Jim

Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
9 posted 2003-09-09 04:59 PM


Well, I have to admit that the allusion escaped me too although I had heard Mr Blair's speech. I must say that was a near brilliant analysis, both Legion and Jim.

Good poem too Brad, now that I have their insight. It was interesting and well worded before but now takes on a whole new importance. I can't say that I completely agree but I did enjoy anyway.

BTW, it is really good to see all you guys back. Maybe this tired old forum will start to wake up again  

Pete

Oh, I had to come back because I forgot to say the Mr. Blair is a brilliant orator. He even lends a sense of credibility to Mr. Bush.

[This message has been edited by Not A Poet (09-09-2003 05:00 PM).]

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767
Southern Abstentia
10 posted 2003-09-10 12:46 PM


It's very Brad

which is good  

oh.. um.. not open huh?  

okay, okay... I know I'm going to lose this battle but, why the heck is the first letter of every line capitalized?  Shouldn't we save that for the begining of a thought or to emphasize something?  why do it just willy nilly?

I have a few more things to look at too but right now I feel the overwhelming desire to see the inside of my eyelids...tis late... manyana

[This message has been edited by Local Rebel (09-10-2003 12:51 AM).]

Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354
Listening to every heart
11 posted 2003-09-10 04:59 PM


quote:
okay, okay... I know I'm going to lose this battle but, why the heck is the first letter of every line capitalized?  Shouldn't we save that for the begining of a thought or to emphasize something?  why do it just willy nilly?


Because quite probably he worked it up in a Word Program, which irritatingly CAPS every line when a hard break has been given.  You can turn it off, or you USE to be able to turn it off, but I haven't found the switch yet, and I have to go through my own poems and uncap each capped word.  The only time it stops doing that is when you start a line,

Like this
then uncap the second line
and after that, the remainder
of the lines should be fine,
until!

A dreaded exclamation point,
period, or question mark come into play.

Go figure.

SPUD
Junior Member
since 2003-09-10
Posts 12

12 posted 2003-09-10 06:02 PM


I quite like the way the first letter of each line is capitalised, it reminds me of how they taught us at school. I grew up thinking poetry was always supposed to look like that and its taken me quite a while to grow out of it.

Spud.

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
13 posted 2003-09-10 06:12 PM


You know, I keep wondering if I've misled everybody by that first comment. I never intended for this to be a deep symbolist tract on American policy or anything else for that matter. I can't say that the interpretations are wrong, because the poem, if it's about anything, is about recognition and responsibility.

LR is right, they are constant concerns of mine.

I really did search for arrowheads and blackberries (pick, put some sugar on them, freeze) and my grandfather really did teach me how to fish. Am I dating myself here? Actually, though I was trying to show that history is all around us, even Americans, who seem determined to forget and forget again that much of what we do, if not determined by the past, is certainly contingent on what has been done before.

So, when Pete says, "I'm not sure I agree with the sentiment," I'm not sure what he agrees or disagrees with. I suppose my memory could be faulty, but as far as I know these things really happened. The fish hadn't been fished line, for example, is a reference to the fact that at times we had to wait for the guy from fish, wildlife, and game to restock the streams which had already been fished out. So much for keeping the government out of our lives in order to live the American lifestyle.

The buffalo is actually a twentieth century success story. We've brought it back from the brink of extinction. But the main point of that part was to show the connection that all or most Americans have with each other. It's a big country but astonishingly similar all across the country (perhaps the result of also being the most mobile society in the world). Jim has problems with the 'laughed at the man who mentioned Nevada or Idaho', but if you look at the speech transcript again, you'll notice that Congress laughed at that and the next line as well. It is the laughter of recognition, not the laughter of irony. He's talking about us (the US) regardless of where we live.

The last part was an attempt to bring all this together with the recognition that Blair was right and that that recognition carries with it a responsibility for no other reason than the fact that we are American (though I would put the same responsibility on any country that expouses liberal values. I don't believe that they are natural values, but I believe they should be universal, and I have yet to meet anyone from any country who disagrees -- though I admit many could just be telling me what I want to hear).

As far as the caps and the water imagery goes, all I can say is that this is somewhat loosely modeled on a Yeats poem and he used caps and a similar type of recognition. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work of course and that's my fault, not Yeats, but the caps are his as well.

Though Sunshine is right, I did at first transcribe my script to a Word program. I put the last one (the Dixie chicks poem) on a Korean writing program and given some of the reactions, I wasn't sure if the formatting had gotten through correctly.





cynicsRus
Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591
So Cal So Cool!
14 posted 2003-09-10 11:04 PM


quote:
As far as the caps and the water imagery goes, all I can say is that this is somewhat loosely modeled on a Yeats poem and he used caps and a similar type of recognition.


So did most poets during and before that time: http://www.public.asu.edu/~aarios/resourcebank/capitalizing/

Sid @ www.cynicsRus.com

Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
15 posted 2003-09-11 12:10 PM


OK, Sid beat me to it. All poetry was written that way at that time. I am not put off by the caps. I too have had a hard time readjusting my thinking to accept poetry that does not capitalize every line. I still think there are some traditional forms that should be, such as sonnets, but I have come to accept and even prefer less structured forms to only capitalize where the language rules so dictate. I don't think I will ever accept the concept on not capitalizing anything or omitting punctuation entirely. No, I'm certain I'll never do that  

[This message has been edited by Not A Poet (09-11-2003 12:11 AM).]

Craw
Member
since 2003-09-11
Posts 73
Scotland
16 posted 2003-09-11 10:26 AM




Tough and taut wee poem and hugely evocative.
There are some things about the rhythm that jar a bit with me. You've got little rhymes playing about in stanza 2, pole/buffalo/depot/Idaho and you've obviously got the deliberate repetition of the two key lines..flow enough and ...Nevada or Idaho, but that somehow makes you search for a pattern that's absent elsewhere and makes lines like 'waited for a line tug' (which is a perfectly fine line) seem almost limp and unsatisfactory.

I wonder if your last line is a strong enough finish as well. I don't know why I think 'Nevada, Idaho' rather than the simple repetition of 'Nevada or Idaho' would give a better sense of completion, but I do.

Enjoyed the poem a lot.

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
17 posted 2003-09-12 06:57 PM


Good point on the line tug line. Definitely something to think about.
TomMark
Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133
LA,CA
18 posted 2007-12-08 02:37 PM


I am going to write my words on this.  I think that this is only poem that Sir Brad let his nature feeling out.
Grinch
Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929
Whoville
19 posted 2007-12-08 05:15 PM



I think Legion is so far off he’s not even wrong, how did he get what he saw from what Brad wrote! I’m so glad he’s not posting anymore.


Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
20 posted 2007-12-08 05:24 PM


Don't be too hard on the guy.

He was talking to a lot of other people at the time.


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