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| Critical Analysis #2 |
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Government? |
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kadafi09 Member
since 2003-06-17
Posts 143California, United States |
please! somebody help me the C.I.A. is out to get me the government is crazy claiming that i'm a criminal saying that to the public i cause panic baseless accusations all because i'm hispanic they'd rather see me in chains want to see me insane they don't care about helping we're just stuck in this dirty game they see us as just another nuisance get out of america they tell us man, we built america when we leave, and your economy is crumbling, remember us we did all the dirty work got all the blue collar jobs now you're all saying you're better than us call us filthy mexican slobs now tell me, who would of done all of that for this country? no, not you and still you disrespect us we're nothing to you claiming that we're all drug dealers with empty souls saying that we've nothing in our hearts we just fiend for money, then are prompted to roll you don't see all of our accomplishments you don't see the greatness you just see the negativity thinking that it's a streak that's endless tell me, when will this country change? when will you white supremacists control your rage? will you rather burn your country down than recognize us? will you stop making threats, telling us to leave the country, saying we're not americans well do whatever you want us blacks, hispanics, arabs, all the minorities, we don't care just treat us as equals, that's all i ask, that's my prayer. |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
My question is simply: When will we stop feeling sorry for ourselves and simply act as equals, instead of victims? The whiney thinking that you've outlined here is simply pathetic. And, line breaks alone won't magically turn it into poetry. ICSoria |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
I have to agree. This is simply a rant and not a very good one at that too "whiney" and too much "oh poor me" as Sid said. It may be possible to write a poetic rant and make it worthwhile but you have to be damn good to do it. This one does not fall into that category. I have seen you do much better. Pete |
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kadafi09 Member
since 2003-06-17
Posts 143California, United States |
thankyou for your comments. they are greatly appreciated. i respect your opinions as they all help me grow. |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Well... without condemning you for expressing a feeling, or pretending that prejudice no longer exists, I'd say you could do a lot more with this, as far as focus. I, personally, have split feelings on the whole Mexican illegal immigration situation. On the one hand, it's really tragic that some people have to have a lower standard of living just because they were born on one side of a border, that they can gaze across at forbidden and comparatively rich land... but I also feel that it's unfair to allow whoever to come over and benefit from our stable economy, without paying taxes or being subject to the other responsibilities a citizen has. This, I think, would work better as a personal account. What experience of discrimination has the narrator encountered... are you a mexican immigrant, an American citizen... what's the story? Where do you work, who do you know, and why should I listen to this... if there's a sympatheic story to hear, you'll probably get a more open audience. |
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rose Member
since 2003-08-02
Posts 53 |
i think that maybe you have a point with this poem BUT it seems to me that you are complaining about huge generalizations, stereotypes, and prejudices made against minorities in this country but at the same time you are making huge generalizations about all of white america. stereotypes on both ends are completely unfair; i admit that minorities get the shaft in this country but i think that you need to consider that ALL white people arent responsible for this. i consider myself pretty open minded and i dont fel that all mexicans are "just another nuisance" or "drug dealers with empty souls." so please, i'd like you to not be prejudiced against whites in the same way that you claim they are prejudiced against you. two wrongs don't make a rioght, and even if minorities are being wronged, everyone involved needs to keep an open mind in order to remedy the discrimination situation. not only white people are responsible here: you need to consider that. sorry, i dont mean to turn this into a rant, but i thought i'd tell you my opinion. in terms of the poetic value of the piece, i think that the rhyming is forced; the poem starts out with something that might resemble a rhyme scheme, but even that seems jerky. later on, you lose all rhyming altogether because you seem to get caught up in the emotion of the poem: it becomes more like a paragraphs of accusations with line breaks. again, i dont mean to be too harsh here: i think that this poem has merit and you do definitely have a point and an important message to communicate, i just think you could communicate it alot more clearly and effectively. ~rose |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
I have to disagree here; This is not a poem and has no hope of ever being one. It's better suited on a discussion forum. But, the author should prepare him/herself for even more scathing criticism, since not all "so-called" minorities are given to the same sort of whiney ranting. |
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MsSouthernOrchid Member
since 2003-07-12
Posts 192 |
Interesting. |
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kadafi09 Member
since 2003-06-17
Posts 143California, United States |
everyone here is entitled to their opinion. that is why we have forums as these. in this case, people do it in the form of poetry. hey cynicsrus, you can call what i wrote whatever you want, i don't care. as for the others, thank you for your comments. to answer your questions, i am a mexican-american who immigrated here. i know that what i say about white america is pretty much making generalizations, and that isn't fair to everyone, but the thing is, discrimination still goes on. another thing, cynic, i'm not whining, maybe it is you who is whining about the people in this country that you want gone. enough said. peace. |
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kadafi09 Member
since 2003-06-17
Posts 143California, United States |
"The american dream wasn't meant for me, cause lady liberty's a hypocrite she lied to me, promised me freedom, education, and equality never gave me nothing but slavery but now look at how dangerous you made me callin me a mad man because im strong and bold." Tupac Amaru Shakur |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
Just so you know where I’m coming from; I’m from a family of immigrants—my paternal grandparents came here to escape the poverty and brewing conflict during Pancho Villa’s “reign”. Granpa Soria built houses in New Mexico out of Adobe that he himself made. Some of those houses are still standing. He and my grandmother never complained about the hard work. They were happy for the opportunities afforded them. They were grateful enough that they became citizens, though many years later. But they proudly raised all their family here and never looked back with regrets. My maternal grandparents’ family had been in this country for several generations. And while my grandpa was very “guero” (fair skinned) due to a strong streak of Irish blood, he still had a very strong Spanish accent, which I’m sure at times held him back from even more opportunities. For, although neither of them was an immigrant to this land, they still were often treated as such. They began as migrant farm workers, always on the move following one harvest after the other. They eventually were able to aquire a piece of land when the local government was giving some away on the outskirts of town, near the city dump. They simply had to homestead it. So, they pitched their tent and did just that, until they were able to build their house on it within a few months. Many years later, when the city wanted to use that land for some municipal purpose, they had to buy my grandparents out. But, this was a step up for them, for they were now able to move to a better area. Mom, while having grown up “following the harvest,” never allowed it to embitter her--even though she had to turn her earnings over to her parents. She simply kept working hard, and little by little got out of that life as each new job would take her in a different direction. She found her niche in the food service industry—as a waitress—and eventually went on to manage a very nice restaurant in the heart of the city, even though she never graduated from grade school. Dad, grew up rather quickly, managing a farm while he was just a teenager. Picking up new skills along the way, he used them to his advantage to take on highway construction jobs, which eventually led him into home construction. He eventually learned enough to set out on his own. He got his contractor’s license and set up a very successful remodeling business, which grew from advertising by word of mouth. I was very fortunate to have grown up having my parents and both sets of grandparents around. In all my years growing up though, I never once heard any of them speak bitterly about how they’d been treated unfairly or made to suffer--if they suffered, they never let on. They taught us by example that there is always much to be grateful to the Good Lord for. They always had food on the table to feed a very large family. I never realized we actually fell somewhere near the poverty level, until I was much older. Besides feeding their large families, they always seemed to have enough on hand to entertain the Pastors and a few of their friends from church on a regular basis. Yet, they never allowed their children to talk bad about this country. They worked hard all their lives, paid their taxes and voted. They took what opportunities were available without griping about how sub-standard those opportunities were. Most importantly, they taught us that although we take great pride in our ancestry—without apology—we are Americans! American History is OUR history; The American flag is OUR flag! I’m grateful today for the attitudes I learned from my parents and grandparents. They never allowed any of us to make excuses for the “lot we’d been cast”. They showed us by example that if you can’t make it in this land of so much opportunity, it’s your own damn fault—don’t whine and never blame anyone else! Now that you know me, perhaps you’ll think twice before misjudging me again. And as Rose has already pointed out—quite fairly—generalizations and stereotypes are often made on both sides. It’s up to us to decide where they will end. Isidro C. Soria Jr. Sid@cynicsRus.com [This message has been edited by cynicsRus (08-17-2003 10:23 PM).] |
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rose Member
since 2003-08-02
Posts 53 |
damn straight, cynicsRus. kadafi09, i respect you and your opinions, i just don't think you're keeping an open mind about this. ~rose |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Folks, let's try to get back to the point here, poetry critique, before things get uncomfortably personal. Actually, this is a pretty slow forum and we have only a small number of participants so a little off subject discussion is always welcome. In this case though, I foresee more personal comments and feelings getting hurt unnecessarily.I hope to avoid that. Sid, I appreciate your history lesson but would rather it not be presented defensively. Kadafi, sometimes criticism will be negative and one has to accept it as such. You are free to ignore it if you choose but little is ever gained by taking a defensive stance. |
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kadafi09 Member
since 2003-06-17
Posts 143California, United States |
more power to you cynic for coming up from such a humble upbringing. but the fact is, i would of more than accepted your opinion about my poem if it was only that, an opinion about my poem, but you had to go and call my people whiny. remember start beef with me, im at you, but just remember the purpose of all of this here and we're cool. so, stay friendly and i'll stay friendly. peace. |
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kadafi09 Member
since 2003-06-17
Posts 143California, United States |
Que viva Pancho Villa!!! |
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gringakiwi Member
since 2003-08-05
Posts 189 |
After reading your poem I think it is great that you are feeling so strongly about such an intense issue- such feelings ought to produce wonderful poems! I agree with the others about the fact that some sentences could have been worded better, in order to get your point accross more effectively. I think that with a bit of "chopping and changing" and maybe reshuffling a bit, this has potential to become a masterpiece of political poetry. (I am not an expert, but this is what "critique and analysis" is for right!?) May peace be with you all........... el pueblo unido jamas sera vencido! |
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kadafi09 Member
since 2003-06-17
Posts 143California, United States |
you're right. thankyou for your comments. |
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Always Lisa Member
since 2003-06-08
Posts 133 |
What makes this a poem... Beats? A poetic form? Puns/figure of speech? Crafty/crafted ways of saying something? Assonance, imagery? The lack of these tools is evident in this rant filled wonder. What you've written is a poorly written speech on poor Hispanic me. Unjust has no one race. It is felt by the whole human race... Women, children. And some even say affirmative action has to go. The white man has stories to tell. We all do. Injustices has been around since the beginning of time. You have every right to feel the way that you do And just as free to say it in the USA. And I must not lose sight that the trouble in your work has nothing to do the topic and more to do with -- if you're going to write it in a poem, by all means, write a poem. Still, the point must again be made... Your work doesn't come close to poetry nor does it give hint to the author knowing much of anything about poetry. I don't see any way for you to reshape what you call "a poem" until you employ some basic poetic tools to your writing. Even free verse holds true to each line; fluid with no set versification, still it employs, caesura, imagery, figures of speech and so on. Your writing took no poetic effort to write. It's as much a poem as what I've written here. Next, a bit of advice. Consider all of the things that are afforded you in this great country. Things that you and I (and so on) gave this country. One being your public library. There you'll find books of poetry and books that aid with the art of poetry and so much more. It's all for the taking. On a side note: I don't believe that this country would fall without the Hispanic race or as you imply... The Hispanic race that does all the blue collar work/dirty work. History has shown that in times of need, women have done their share (and still do) of the dirtiest, hardest work of all and for less pay. Women have held the work force together in times of war then put food on the table when they got home. Blacks have towed the line. White men have towed the line and the list goes on. Today, blue collar work is shared and it has no race or sex. And every worker can be replace, Hispanic, white or black, male or female. If we lost the Hispanic race...I do believe that we would be missing out on a richness of a culture and less a race towing and less the book read; bought by a free people. We'd be less of inventions and less of hope to make this world a better place where we can live side by side. Lastly, less a human race to give and receive love. Though are roads are different, we're in this together. We can freely rant all we like or we can take the best of it, embrace it, run with it (or the rant) and write in the form of a poem. Regards, Always Lisa |
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Always Lisa Member
since 2003-06-08
Posts 133 |
>cynic, i'm not whining, maybe it is you who is whining about the people in this country that you want gone. enough said. peace. Here you imply that Sid has a race issue. To shame. Regards again, Lisa |
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kadafi09 Member
since 2003-06-17
Posts 143California, United States |
truth be told, i put no thought into this "poem". i put no thought into a rhyme scheme or whatever. say what you may, i no longer care about what you say. cynic was beefin with me, i would of respected his opinion if his attack didn't turn personal. i respect your opinion, don't make this personal, or i will retaliate. |
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Always Lisa Member
since 2003-06-08
Posts 133 |
>truth be told, i put no thought into this "poem". That's the trouble. Perhaps if you did, I would have read a poem but I didn't read a poem. >i put no thought into a rhyme scheme or whatever. By whatever, you mean poetic devices to aid in calling something a poem. >say what you may, i no longer care about what you say. Yes, I will say what I may. It's becoming of me when I know a thing or two about this art, poetry. >cynic was beefin with me, Funny, that's not what I saw. If one puts out a message, one must expect not all responses will be to their liking. Sid didn't agree with your message and had one of his own, that simple. >i would of respected his opinion if his attack didn't turn personal. It seems that your writing was a personal attack on everyone that lives and breaths in the US. What reaction did you expect? >i respect your opinion, don't make this personal, or i will retaliate. You could do that but know that I am a woman loaded with ammunition. I fire at whim. Grins* Your writing was a direct hit. Expect others to see that what you hit was a lot of people wrongly in your effort at calling it a poem. You generalized a country with a lot of bad stuff. A country that has done more to help others than all others. It's not a perfect country (Bad apples can be found in any country) but it holds with it an opportunity for greatness. All that live here have that opportunity but one alone has to get there despite any adversity. I wish you well. And yet more regards, Lisa [This message has been edited by Always Lisa (08-19-2003 10:31 PM).] |
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kadafi09 Member
since 2003-06-17
Posts 143California, United States |
i wish you well too. peace. |
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kadafi09 Member
since 2003-06-17
Posts 143California, United States |
hey, i had fun. thanks for the lively discussion. let's do this again sometime. until then, peace. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
You know what, I didn't like this poem at first, but I do now (the controversy helps). The dilemma is that the speaker places himself in an inferior position, he cries for help, he prays, and, at the same time, calls for a position of equality. Nice paradox. Though I'd like to know more about the CIA thing.  Oh, and it is a poem. Anyone who thinks differently, hasn't read enough poetry yet.  |
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Toad Member
since 2002-06-16
Posts 161 |
I didn’t like this poem much when I first read it either and to tell the truth I still don’t, it’s not the subject matter, it’s not the lack or ill use of standard poetic devices, it’s the obvious lack of care or thought that went into it. My advice would be to take what you have as a rough draft and go through it line by line and correct all the grammatical errors, remove all the redundancies and hone or accentuate the venom to a sharp edge. If you tighten it up without losing the depth of angst that shows through in places you may end up with something worth reading more than once. [This message has been edited by Toad (08-20-2003 05:26 AM).] |
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Always Lisa Member
since 2003-06-08
Posts 133 |
>Oh, and it is a poem. Anyone who thinks differently, hasn't read enough poetry yet. A speech, sermon, poor is me with line breaks does not make a poem so yes, I think differently. As for your statement that if anyone thinks differently, hasn't read enough poetry yet... How much would you suppose is enough to change my view? How about 10-years worth or 20-years or 30+ or perhaps from the time I could read? If I worked with other writers on poetic forms or the basics in poetry or poetic tools, might I recognize a poem then? Other than the author saying that he wrote a poem, I read nothing in his writing to suggest I was reading a poem and so I ask you, what makes his writing a poem? Is it because he wrote it and says it's a poem; that makes it a poem? Where is the skill and where does the words "art of poetry" come to play? To perceive a difference is clear. What I read was ordinary rant and to be a "Prose Poem," it must be without line breaks. The author failed that too. Anyway, these are my thoughts. Take them or leave them. One thing's for sure, my view won't change. I'm well seasoned and confident in what I perceive is or isn't poetry. I believe that I know the difference between just writing, and writing poetry. The author himself admitted to the fact that he put no thought into what he called "a poem." Lastly, maybe it is you who needs to read more poetry. Besides me, two others who responded saying that they read a bunch of rant... They clearly know a great deal about poetry. I've read many of their works filled with skill. I guess they too haven't read enough in your view. I beg to differ when reading the skill they hold to strong. They're awesome writers in my book. Writers who have clearly studied the art of poetry at some depth. Regards, Always Lisa |
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kadafi09 Member
since 2003-06-17
Posts 143California, United States |
hey, i gotta say, i think you're all cool. you too lisa. like i've said, i've enjoyed all of this discussion on my "poem". that's a good idea, revising my "poem", thanks for the idea. |
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kadafi09 Member
since 2003-06-17
Posts 143California, United States |
hey, lisa, just out of curiosity, what do you work in? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: I guess the wink didn't work for you, did it? This, however, completely misses the point. Poetic devices don't define poetry, poetry defines poetic devices. Poetic devices are a description of the poem, not a prescription for defining a poem. You talk about time, but it won't matter how long you take if you don't take a look at the tradition as a whole. From automatic writing to the Beats to L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E poets to feminist rants to postmodern index poems, the tradition is simply too big to exclude this one. You don't have to like it of course, and I suppose its okay to define poetry anyway you want, but the price of idiosyncrasy is irrelevancy -- unless you are in a position to assert your own definition onto others. You aren't here. quote: If you spend the time worrying about whether a piece of writing is poetry or not, my criticism stands, you aren't reading the poem, you are labeling. The very act of reading should not be fettered by things like, "Is this a poem or not?" but by questions like, "What does this do, if anything, for me." The reason I grew interested in this poem is the reaction that it created among you and others. This poem did something, it made people angry, and even though I think a lot of what has been written here is based on reading too much into the poem -- it doesn't generalize about white people for example -- and I doubt if the author really understands what the thing says (he wrote it automatically, he himself admits -- his comments after the writing are far too influenced by the reactions themselves to be useful). A poem's value should never be equated with the time or effort that was put into it, the only thing that matters should be your reaction to the language. It's funny that you talk about the prose poem as if it had some kind of stable definition. Baudelaire's Flowers of Evil has linebreaks and yet he himself called it a book of prose poems. Whitman's "The Song of Myself" does not technically use linebreaks, but I've never heard it called a prose poem. Poetry is fun like that. quote: Should I read more poetry? Sure, why would I stop? I like it. I do find it difficult to put anyone in this forum or any other in the awesome writers category -- including myself. An awesome writer is someone who can read repeatedly with satisfaction and insight. Does this poem measure up? Of course not. Does any on this page? Nope. But you see, I'm not saying you can't dislike the poem, The only thing I'm questioning is a useless rhetorical manuever designed to belittle the author. Why not just call it a bad poem? Did any of the three commentors complain to the moderators? For you see,I may not change your mind, but you've put me in a bit of a dilemma. If it's not a poem, it should be removed. |
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kadafi09 Member
since 2003-06-17
Posts 143California, United States |
its been fun. reading all of the responses. thanks to everyone for responding. [This message has been edited by kadafi09 (08-20-2003 12:55 PM).] |
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kadafi09 Member
since 2003-06-17
Posts 143California, United States |
hey, whoever made this website, thankyou. |
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Always Lisa Member
since 2003-06-08
Posts 133 |
>hey, lisa, just out of curiosity, what do you work in? Are you asking as in job or as in types of writing? My guess is that you're asking about writing but thought I'd better make sure to not to answer wrong. Lisa |
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kadafi09 Member
since 2003-06-17
Posts 143California, United States |
i'm asking as in a job, what you do for a living, you know. |
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Always Lisa Member
since 2003-06-08
Posts 133 |
Brad, may I call you Brad? Sir seems too formal at this point. "WOW" a long response and I told myself that this thread didn't merit any more of my time so I'll end with this...My idea of poetry isn't as limited as your response implies, however, there comes a point where I cannot call a snake a cat. Nor can I call the ingredients on a soup can or a road sign a poem. It may inspire a poem but that's about it for this end. Next, not once (do I feel) that I belittled the author in any way. And, it's a far stretch to surmise as much. You're far-reaching but you cannot touch. My use of this forum has been (as always) filled with the utmost respect to those around my words. Words that may or may not be liked; fair and respectful in nature but also my blunt self. Now, you asked... "Why not just call it a bad poem?" The author will have to settle for me calling it just bad rant and so will you. Lastly, you ask..."Did any of the three commentors complain to the moderators?" [I can only speak for myself and the answer is no. I don't have a problem with someone's freedom to express ones self in any form]. And more... I believe that one of the moderators was one of the three responding to rant. >For you see,I may not change your mind, but you've put me in a bit of a dilemma. >If it's not a poem, it should be removed. Nice try but see above in brackets. Next, I think that censorship has more important uses and this isn't one of them. Leaving the beaten to death path,  Lisa |
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Always Lisa Member
since 2003-06-08
Posts 133 |
>i'm asking as in a job, what you do for a living, you know. In short: Office administration/managment, boss and part owner of machine repair incorporated. I'm a mean boss kicking the blue collar around in machine grease but they seem to like it. Go figure. Now, how about you? Lisa |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: So your ideas are irrelevant? |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
quote: I’m very sorry you couldn’t decipher the intentions of my reply. I exposed my family history simply to let you know that—coming from a Hispanic family, with English being my second language—I have every right to criticize someone such as yourself. Yes, I admit, I did call it whiney. But, anyone who comes to this country to take advantage of better opportunities then swiftly loses sight of his original vision, only to carp about how this country’s holding him back, should know there will be plenty of Americans who still disagree with him/her. And as far as my critique is concerned; I believe I came across quite clearly that it was indeed an opinion. I stated, I didn’t think it to be a poem. I stand by that original statement. I never said you had no right to post it. That’s for the monitors to decide. I just think it would have been better suited on a discussion forum. Judging from the replies the thread has gotten, it seems my assessment was accurate. Anyone who thinks that I don’t know what I’m talking about would do well to simply look at a simple definition of Poetry. I’ll quote you one from Bob’s Byway—which most every online poet knows is an indispensable source of information: POEM: A rhythmic expression of feelings or ideas, often using metaphor, meter and rhyme. Your so called poem—which you yourself admitted took very little time to write—contained no rhythm; no metaphor; no meter and no rhyme. If you’re not already aware of Bob’s Byway; here’s the link, I’m sure you’ll find it very helpful: http://www.poeticbyway.com/glossary.html Forgive the lateness of this reply: I’ve been out of town. |
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Toad Member
since 2002-06-16
Posts 161 |
In my opinion this is definitely a poem just not a very good one in its present form. |
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Always Lisa Member
since 2003-06-08
Posts 133 |
>So your ideas are irrelevant? Professor Brad, may I call you that? It seems you think so. I should warn you about something though... You can twist but so can I twist and bend in all the right places. I won't be bending here; hard as you try. Leaving little room for tripping serves me well. Think of me as an enigma and leave it at that. Regards, Lisa |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
I cannot say that this definately is a poem. Neither can I say that it definately is not a poem. I won't pretend to be knowledgeable enough to make that determination. The definition of poetry has become so loosely interpreted that I don't know anyone who is actually qualified to make that judgement. I am willing to accept than kadafi can call it a poem if he wants to. That simple fact does not make me enjoy it any more or any less than if no such claim had been made. I already expressed an abbreviated opinion some time back. IMO, it is completely uninteresting. There is some well established poetry out there that falls within the same category. So that doesn't even make any different in the grand scheme of things. I can add another thought now, after reading some of the above replies, the most disturbing thing I find. Kadafi stated that he really didn't give any thought to this in writing. Why would anyone post anything, poetry or not, in CA without giving it some thought. If it is not worth that much effort to the author then it damn sure is not important enough for me, or anyone else for that matter, to waste our time even reading, much less critiquing. Pete |
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Toad Member
since 2002-06-16
Posts 161 |
Pete, If this poem was, in your opinion, definitely good and the author insisted that he/she had expended no thought or time on its construction would reading it be a similar waste of time? I only ask because my earlier correlation between the obvious fact that this poem was written without much thought and my opinion that in its present form I didn’t like it is a pivotal point. A bad poem (or even a non-poem) can become a good poem with time and thought, either the poets own or with a little help from some of the people in here who kindly give their time and opinions. This forum is supposed to be a place where a complete novice like me can come and get advice like “spend a little more time thinking about what you want to say; check your grammar; concentrate on the CIA angle; smooth out your line breaks”. What we don’t need is people telling us we’re wasting their time or that what we’re writing isn’t even a poem. Go back and read the first poem you ever posted Pete and look at some of the names wasting their time with opinions and advice. As I recall it was A Sonnet. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Certainly my first attempts were not good. I can't even say that they are much better today although you are right, many of the good folks here did their best to help me. Regardless of the quality of my writing and any talent and skill or lack thereof, I never posted anything without giving it my best effort. I simply would not throw a few words together and post, asking others to invest their time and talent in making my writing better when I was not willing to give my best to begin with. My other point was, I don't believe we can adequately define what is or is not poetry. All we can do is look at a piece and say it is or is not poetry, "to me." Pete Good memory. It was a sonnet, more or less |
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kadafi09 Member
since 2003-06-17
Posts 143California, United States |
to respond to your question Lisa, I am 17 yrs old, i've recently graduated from high school, and i will begin college september the fourth as a freshman of course. hey cynic, you're forgiven. to respond to everyone else's question, first, take a look at all of the things that i've written, none of them took any amount of thought, another thing that they have in common is that they're poetry, if i may call them, and that i put my heart into them. remember, i don't care if you like my writing, all i care about is...well that's irrelevant, anyway that's all i have to say. peace. [This message has been edited by kadafi09 (08-21-2003 11:16 AM).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Pete, but what about quote: Toad, I think you're right. If I can find the time, I'll give this a serious run though. I really do think there's something to be considered here -- the damn thing has two voices and that should be capitalized on, not burned in back of the library. Lisa, Uh, okay. But honestly the only thing I can glean from that last post is the idea that you're a Bender fan too. Maybe? Cynicsrus, You've neglected concrete poetry in using Bob's byway, haven't you? |
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grassy ninja Junior Member
since 2003-07-20
Posts 41Kentucky |
why is it that this poem, that the author admits he put little thought into, gets more serious critique than the many other poems on here posted by people who actually put a lot of thought into their poems? i'm not just talking about number of posts, but the thought and effort put into critiquing it. any thoughts? |
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kadafi09 Member
since 2003-06-17
Posts 143California, United States |
everyone's comments here have been most helpful. thanks to everyone. [This message has been edited by kadafi09 (08-21-2003 03:32 PM).] |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
quote: I didn’t realize I needed it. Nor did I ask for it. I made my case—I’m still waiting for you to make yours. quote: Yes, but if you’ll show me how this has any similarity to Concrete Poetry, I’ll certainly reconsider my argument. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
I think the poem has potential (and I agree with Brad and Toad that it is one). Sure, some of it may be construed as overstated stereotypes, but stereotypes don't seem much like stereotypes when you are in a victim's shoes. I like the realist/idealist struggle in the poem, but think it still needs some work. Not much more I can add. This offering looks more like a rough draft. Kadafi09, I'd recommend that you sit down with a pad of paper and do some rewrites, read it aloud until it strikes a better cord with the ear, and play around with the format a little bit. Hope you repost a final product. Jim P.S. Grassy ninja - I think this poem got more treatment because it sparked interest, in spite if its being hastily written. [This message has been edited by jbouder (08-22-2003 12:53 PM).] |
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