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Critical Analysis #2
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My Apologies - In Regards to Vare Tomir
| Critical Analysis #2 |
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My Apologies - In Regards to Vare Tomir |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hello, I'm Vare Tomir, First, please all accept my public apologies for my display of rudeness and disrespect towards not only those poets who were unfortunate enough to recieve a critique from Vare but also to the owner and administrators of this site. Secondly, I have sent each person directly involved with Vare a personal letter apologizing, explaining my actions and included proper critique of their poems that I slandered. For the onlookers - it was nothing more than research into a story idea, with unfortunate consequences. I think it was foolish of me to assume that people wouldn't get as upset as they did and naive to think that it would be easy to make ammends to those I hurt with my words. I acted impulsively, innappropriately and maybe if I had worried as much about people's feelings as I did developing a story, which ironically I probably won't end up writing, then none of this would happen. As a writer I think it is important to continue experimenting with techniques both new and old, both in terms of oneself and the art as well. This being important because I believe it allows a person to find their own voice and evolve that voice. However, I do feel that there are lines that a person should not cross, these lines are based upon ones own personal beliefs and I did cross a line unknowingly. Truth be known I was saddened and guilt ridden by the amount of hurt feelings I caused and because of this I know that I would never be able to develop the story that I had so thoughtlessly persued. The story being Vare, living as a failure and the antogonized in "real" life versus the antagonist and egomanical person in his internet life. Feeling like an ant and a king. I wanted to do this by interjecting real conversations I would have as Vare on the internet divided by a ficticious story line. Becoming Vare would not only help the believability of the story but also I thought it would be interesting to personally explore, as a writer and a person, a hidden darker side within me, within us all. I say within us all because after reading the responses to Vare, I see how easily it is for people to lower their standards when they encounter something they hate. Now if it is alright to express your hate towards someone that you detest in a rude manner, then shouldn't it be alright to express your hate towards a poem that you detest in a rude manner? Is it alright to hate the hateful but not alright for the hateful to hate? Now I'm not trying to justify the critiques I made as Vare, I do retract all critiques and comments made by him, but nonetheless, I find that to be an interesting question. It's ironic that the majority preaching politeness, tolerance and respect dealt with Vare in a somewhat rude manner. Not only that but those who accused Vare of acting superior seemed to do so from a soap box. I too have done all this many times, my guess is its an instinctive trait found within most people. It's a natural reflex to punch back when hit, part of our survival makeup. I found it kind of ironic as well that the moderator of this forum spent the time to warn Vare of his infractions then banned him before he wrote anything else, the final warning being on July 8th at 8:15pm and Vare's final post being hours earlier on the same day. "My advice to you is short and simple. Start now treating all or members with the proper respect or you will quickly find yourself gone." Then after the banning, the same moderator has allowed the continuation of action similar to that of Vare by others, not that I blame anyone for getting or allowing some payback on Vare. I guess I'm bringing it up because I just find human nature interesting. "mr. tomir, you have our interest. you also have, however, our disgust." Which is interesting because it is alright to be disgusted by a person but not alright to be disgusted by this particular person's poem. "well, as a professional and published novelest, I face your kind every day in this field that I work in. You may think you have your flawless techniques down to a science, but I am here to tell you now that no editor or puiblisher in their right mind would want you under a contract because of such unprofessional attitude and lol forgive me, egomanic trip." I found this one interesting because she insults Vare by claiming he is an egomaniac, yet she has opened her arguement by letting everyone know she is a "professional and published novelest" thereby immediately attempting to let it be known what level or calibre writer she is in comparison to Vare...trying to achieve a pecking order by dismissing his opinions with status, thereby doing something very similar to what Vare did. Yet oddly enough this published novelist in this brief response goes on to spell publisher and novelist incorrectly. Thank Christ for editors  And I apologize to Gina if that last bit sounded insulting, I was only kidding."So sorry Mr. Tomir, but there is nothing new or original in this composition. I don't see what "dark clouds," "pain," or "horse" add to the piece. They add nothing and the whole macabre writer wallowing in a violent and disturbing past and using words like "carrion," "burn," and "bones" schtick has been beaten to death with a dripping black candle. All this leaves me wondering is why, after reading this, a reader would care about your poem. Regards." Which throws Vare's words right back at him, which seems to fall into the old, if you can't beat them, join them, category, or I the "I know you are but what am I", train of retribution. "I trust you'll soon feel compelled to honor us with your own poetic samples--something we can all reference, as we strive to become skilled poets--as you already seem to be." I think the snide tone really comes out well in this one. It would have been interesting if I was a good enough poet to blow the socks off everyone, sad truth be known, that is the best poem I have come up with in a long while. I say it would have been interesting because if I were more talented it somehow seems that I would be allowed a wider girth by this person...say if I were Allan Ginsberg or Sylvia Plath and had said the exact same thing, that somehow because of my level of talent, my actions would be more excusable. "Certain others however, derive their pleasure by finding any soap box (even one considerably inferior to their normal tastes) from which to spew their superfluously, acrimonious drivel." I really enjoyed this part because it seems someone is telling Vare how it is about people who tell people how it is. Interesting Catch 22, kinda like how to you tell someone not to lecture people without lecturing to them yourself. But this same gentleman, I cannot help but admire because throughout the whole thing he wanted to beat the turd out of Vare's words with logic thereby showing what most of Vare's comments were, completely unsubstantiated, (A quality that I wished I so readily possessed). Where as the vast majority acted on emotion and seemed more comfortable addressing the situation by hopping in the mud with Vare. "Stop trying to be something your not. Try listening to Fionna Apple for a change and give your cd player a break from TOOL. Your not Maynard though wish you were and you dont show the talent to be so critical. As I said, I dont expect to see you here much longer...I remember meeting people like you, but I havent seen them since the sixth grade..... disregards," And the gloves come off and the mudslinging begins. Again it seems that to another individual, if I were a more talented poet that somehow my insults would be more tolerable and perhaps be more justified....either that or listening to Fionna Apple will somehow make me a better writer, kidding of course. Anyways I found all this interesting, the responses of people - not the hurt feelings that I have caused. I also found it interesting that out of the eight or so personal apology letters I wrote in which I admit my wrongs, tried to make pennance and asked for their forgiveness, that only one person responded and he said he would only forgive me conditionally - that is if I would do something for him then I would be forgiven in turn. Which kind of sounds like I have to buy his forgiveness. As to which I responded - Although a patient man I can only apologize so many times, I've already said I'm sorry, the forgiveness part is up to you. However his request was that I retract my comments and offer a public apology to himself. Funny thing though, he didn't care less that I insulted many others, only that he was wronged. So I hope this qualifies as a retraction of past comments and as a public apology so that my tab is all squared up with this person. This again is kinda interesting to me because everyone is going around talking respect, tolerance and trying to exemplify the better qualities of people, yet none of these people have the kindness within them to accept my apologies, let alone even acknowledge my apology. One last thing before I finish with this post. I wondered if I was more well liked would my poem have been more well recieved, that is, I have to question the validity of the majority's critiques at this forum since it seems to be largely motivated by popularity, likability and forum status. Which in turn makes me question how helpful this forum really is to writers if the majority of advice is so easily influenced by popularity. That is not to say all the advice given here is bad, just perhaps that maybe a lot of it is based more on who you are than on what is written which may actually prove to be very bad advice. That is to say if someone states a poem is good only because they are friendly with a particular person when in fact the poem may have a lot of "flaws" within it, then other poets reading the critique might get the wrong impression of what is truly considered "good and bad" writing thereby wrongly influencing their own work. I say this only after reading other critiques and poems besides the ones I had responded to. That is about all I have to say right now. Again I do offer my sincerest apologies to all who were hurt or angered by my words and of course to the fine moderator/s and owner/s of this website. My only excuses are ignorance, which I am told is no excuse at all and my attempt at exploring the creative process, which I think we all do in our own unique way. Best Regards to all, Vare Tomir's personal trainer (Had to edit the title because people are still responding to the Vare Tomir comments) [This message has been edited by Trevor (06-10-2003 03:42 PM).] |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Trevor, It is good to hear from you again, even under these strained circumstances. Your apology is accepted. We all make mistakes and need forgivness sometimes. I had a gut feel that Mr Tomir was really another member. I never suspected and I am disappointed that it was you, however. But, that was then and you have apologized to everyone concerned. I suspect all will have forgiven you after this. You have, I think, pointed out one of the basic flaws of human nature. We all assume, valid or not, that it is of little use dealing with a personality as vile as Tomir with undeserved kindness. Yes, we did lower ourselves in response, not to the level of Tomir, but lower than we should have anyway. This is unfortunate but almost inevitable. In my lifetime, I could count on the fingers of one hand the number of people I have known who would have been able to maintain their high standards under those circumstances, well, surely both hands. I want to address one other point you brought up. Had Tomir been a little easier to get along with, I'm sure his poem would have been received better. But, that is also human nature. As you are well aware, we are not professional writers, editors or publishers. We write because we enjoy it but we also enjoy the interaction with our peers here in the forum. That part of it only works when we can all get along or at least tolerate one another. If this were a professional forum then most of the writing found here would get little or no notice, as Tomir so indelicately indicated. His poem did have some important flaws as referenced by the one or two who actually gave a partial critique. It was not particularly original and that part about the horse ... well?? Finally, for the record, I do not have the authority to ban any member. Had the diatribe continued much longer, I would have requested a ban, as I alluded to in the thread. Instead, I was gone most of the day and after seeing Tomir's reply to me, Ron elected to ban him without further discussion. I only found out about it after posting my second and stronger comment. So, I was robbed of that pleasure. Ok, enough of that. Although even as Trevor, you can be a bit acidic at times, we still miss you around here. Why not stick around for a while, as your own loveable self of course, and share some of your knowledge of writing? You were always one of our best critics. Pete |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
I didn't take the time to know you as Trevor, and I'm not even sure if I ever read anything you wrote. I rarely spend time in this forum, for my own reasons. But I don't think anything I said in my reply to your post as Vare is out of line, mean spirited, nor unjustified. Guess I don't like the GAME you played, as it did indeed needlessly cause many hurt feelings, no matter what your intent was. It's not up to me to decide your fate at this board, as it IS Ron's decision. It is Carnell's castle, he holds the key to the door, and rightly so. It's an interesting 'research concept' you described, but a method I doubt you'll want to sink your teeth into again in the future, at least not here. I can't speak to your previous critiques, as I've not read any except for the ones you posted as Vare. But irregardless, critical analysis DOES NOT not mean being critical, and when you piss everyone off? you usually end up alone, no matter whether or not your own posts are any good. You are right, your style and quality are, in the long run, irrelevent to the issue. But then, you already have that truth figured out. Keep writing, it is a great form of catharsis, if nothing else. |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hi Pete, Thanks for your kind words and understanding, they are most welcomed after not only dishing out insults as Vare but recieving them as well. I will say this, it was difficult staying in character, being meanspirited especially when someone raised a valid point that I wanted to respond to as myself.... and also trying to alter how I usually write and respond to others...especially denying myself the old cut and paste that I really like to use. I was going to remain incognito and tried to create another profile to post my apology but the system wouldn't let me and I was forced to post under my true identity. Which is probably a good thing because I think its best that I own up to my own mistake rather than stay anonamous. I really hadn't ever posted under another name, nor acted the way I did when I was Tomir and for as much harm as it caused it was also a terrific learning experience. I completely agree with you in regards to what you've said about human nature, it does seem to be almost ineviatable for most, myself included, to lower our standards when dealing with rude people. I think this behaviour unfortunately carries on far past the realms of the internet world and into our everyday living. Such as in the workplace, dating, friendships, promotions, business dealings. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that perhaps there is a constant element of unjust within our society. Perhaps a large majority do not treat each other based upon how people should be treated but rather based upon how they "feel" about someone. And I suspect that line of thinking also carries over unto physical appearances. "As you are well aware, we are not professional writers, editors or publishers. We write because we enjoy it but we also enjoy the interaction with our peers here in the forum." Most definetly and I just want to say that for those who don't know me, I've always supported any and all levels of writing though I still maintain a stance on the importance of critiquing, which in my opinion is essential in the growth of a writer. And I've always tried to do this in a positive manner of course. I'm not a professional writer either, nor have I ever claimed to be, I too write because I enjoy it. "His poem did have some important flaws as referenced by the one or two who actually gave a partial critique. It was not particularly original and that part about the horse ... well??" Not being able to properly respond to a poem written by Trevor but post by Vare was a difficult part of maintaining the character. Actually the partial critiques were very helpful and I think I smoothed out the meter in a couple of the stanzas. Or at least I tried to. As far as it being original, I dunno, personally when no one understood the horse part I have to think that maybe it had at least some originality to it. I do agree that the opening is pretty standard but I was hoping that my description of the clouds would help eleviate this, not in words - ash, etc is pretty common but in idea that the cloud above is not made of rain. The first half of the poem is meant to read literally and the second metaphorically. The furnace is one that is located in a concentration camp and the man is one who is forced to burn bodies, even that of his own deceased brother. He can not cry out loud, for to do so might mean his own death. There is a paticular name the Nazis gave to these workers, I've searched for it but have been able to find out what it is. Which is a shame because I would like to have it as my title. Anyways, this man who is forced to watch his brother burn, sees the clouds from the dead rise into the sky and form shapes and he imagines that his brother's cloud is shaped like a horse and is finally free of the horrible oppression. Then because he can not cry aloud, he reflects upon his youth when his brother used to run off without him, leaving him all alone and cries on the inside once again. I hope that if I can find a better title than The Furnace that it might help allude to something more than a man regretting his past and some kookey horses running in the sky without being overly obvious. I think that's an important point in writing a good poem, getting a poem across without it being too obvious to a reader. Show instead of tell. But hey, that's just my opinion. And again, as far as being original is concerned I agree with a lot of what has been said recently in discussion forums about it being near impossible to create something truly original, however a good reproduction of a Van Gogh is still a good painting. Not that I'm saying its a good poem that I've written, that is quite subjective, but I do think its a decent poem with enough good qualities that one day I may be able to work it into a better poem. Anyways enough of me trying to justify my half-assed poetry. But thanks to the people who offered some good advice on the poem. "Finally, for the record, I do not have the authority to ban any member." Then what the hell's the good in having you around Pete? A gun without bullets? Teasing of course. "Instead, I was gone most of the day and after seeing Tomir's reply to me, Ron elected to ban him without further discussion." Darn that Ron, no matter what I've ever done he's always stayed on step ahead of me "Ok, enough of that. Although even as Trevor, you can be a bit acidic at times, we still miss you around here." Me, acidic, surely you jest Pete. And how come I get the feeling that "we" may only constitute you. But thank you for the kind words. And rest assured that I won't conduct such research here again, or anywhere else for that matter. Not to say I'm not a bit curious exploring that and other mind frames a little more closely, just that its probably healthier for all that I, or anyone else whose interested, do it in a different manner. "Why not stick around for a while, as your own loveable self of course, and share some of your knowledge of writing? You were always one of our best critics." Well to be honest I really don't know how much I have to offer these days. I really haven't progressed much as a writer since I last posted here, only changed genres from poetry to concentrating more on short stories, etc. so I don't know how much new "wisdom" I can offer anyone. But who knows, maybe the majority will not want me around after the stunt I just pulled. It was good talking to you Pete, I hope all is well. Take care, Trevor [This message has been edited by Trevor (06-10-2003 03:08 PM).] |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Trevor- 'Perhaps a large majority do not treat each other based upon how people should be treated but rather based upon how they "feel" about someone.' Don't you think that should be a factor? I don't treat my boyfriend and my father in the same manner... because I feel differently about each of them. In a perfect world, I would have e-mailed you and asked why you felt so angry, what compelled you to write people off, don't you think it might be more constructive to help rather than rip apart, etc? Instead I chose to respond with a cut-and0paste and a 'heh heh,' and why? Because I felt like it. Because I didn't feel like Tomir deserved any kind of in-depth reply to either his person or his poem. Because I hate it when people tout their own opinion as if it's the only one around (I've done that before, and also received appropriate rebuttals) when, really, I read their poem and think to myself "Hey, I could do at least this good" or "Hey, look at all the thyings I thnk are wrong here." It's not necessarily right, but this isn't a perfet world. I wish I could find a soure of more unconditional love for others, but the proud part of me always wants the last word... always wants to point out "Hey, you screwed up too!" Anyway, if it means anything, I didn't really think your poem sucked that bad, and, truth be told, I did a bit of proof-texting so I could say "Oooh, the word 'dark.' How fantastically original!" I like a high horse, and on occasion, I even like a little drama. I suspect I'm not the only one who thought "Heh, what's the cleverest and most sardonic reply I can muster?" Well, maybe I am...  Oh well. You didn't rip anything of mine apart... since I haven't been writing anything of any value for months... so I didn't take any personal offense. If you had, I'm sure the offense would have been more along the lines of "That pretentious jerk didn't even bother to point out what was wrong!" because I really don't see that point of replying to something if you're just going to say "this sucks," any more than I see the point of saying "this is good." So, anyway, I guess this just proves that people are willing to jump on any bandwagon, even if they have no personal stake in it. That's just the way we are. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: So do I, Trevor. If you poke a dog with a stick and he bites you, does the bite make it all right to poke a dog with a stick? Hate, anger, and rudeness are rarely if ever justified. Sometime, though, they can certainly be understandable. It seems to me the one thing missing from your question is the issue of provocation. In our world, there will never be a justifiable reason for a dog to sink its teeth into human flesh, and in most instances, the owner will suffer and the dog will likely be put to death. Still, I suspect more than a few people will feel the guy with a stick got just what he deserved. Biting is retaliation. Poking is just plain meanness. Your experiment wasn't just ill-considered, Trevor, it was reprehensible. You intentionally set out to hurt others for your own gain, and I honestly can't think of a better definition for meanness than that. To try to ennoble your reasons only overshadows your contriteness. To suggest everyone should share in your guilt only mocks your guilt. To return as Trevor just moments after failing to gain entrance as "alteredvare" only makes suspect your sincerity. Apologies prefaced with excuses and immediately followed with "but" have a tendency to ring hollow. I didn't respond to Vare, beyond banning him, because I recognized it was a battle that couldn't be won and wasn't worth fighting. I'm responding to Trevor, however, in hopes something can yet be learned. I accept your apology, as I suspect will most others, and we'll call it all one crazy, stupid mistake. But understand, please, that the acceptance is in spite of the presentation of the apology, not because of it. You might find people are a little more gracious if the apology is a little less conditional? [edit] I just read your response to Pete, so wanted to add a few thoughts. You are welcome here and have been missed by more than just Pete. There's nothing to say the CA forum is only for poetry and absolutely no reason why short stories can't be posted in this room, too. Unless you're writing experimental, nonplot-driven stories, I suspect you'll find fiction is much more easily (and profitably) critiqued than poetry. The "rules" are much more structured and generally more universal. We used to have a Fiction Workshop at pipTalk, before my lack of time killed it, and I've been know to add a few pennies to the pot from time to time. Uh, but, Trevor. Should you decide you want to write a story about a serial killer ... DON'T. (p.s. No Moderator has ever used it, so I suspect Pete has forgotten, but they do have the option to suspend posting privileges for up to 30 days on their own authority. I never hand a man an unloaded gun.) |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hi Midnitesun, "But I don't think anything I said in my reply to your post as Vare is out of line, mean spirited, nor unjustified. Guess I don't like the GAME you played, as it did indeed needlessly cause many hurt feelings, no matter what your intent was." I don't think anything you said was out of line either, in fact I think you had some really helpful comments about the flow of the poem. Thank-you for that. As far as it being a GAME, I'm guessing you are capitalizing this because you feel that such action is nothing more than some Tom foolery yet I assure you that I didn't treat it as such otherwise I would never have taken the time to apologize to everyone. I was most serious in exploring this character. "It's not up to me to decide your fate at this board, as it IS Ron's decision. It is Carnell's castle, he holds the key to the door, and rightly so." I'm not particularly worried about my fate here. I can do no more than apologize and I'm quickly running out of feeling the constant need to continue to do so. I may not actually be Vare but I have my limits as well. I didn't experiment with Vare as a game, just as I didn't apologize in any way to ensure I always have a home at PIP. I apologized because I was wrong to do what I did and I felt regret over hurting people's feelings for my own self-indulgent exercise. If Ron thinks its best for PIP that I not be allowed to post, then of course I will respect his judgement call. I hope that he does not make such a decision but nonetheless I can do no more than I have already done to try and right my wrongs. "It's an interesting 'research concept' you described, but a method I doubt you'll want to sink your teeth into again in the future, at least not here." Actually I'd love to do it again except for a longer period of time, however I think the repercussions are more than I'd like to see so the chances are I won't. I might however try it with another character in the future, one far less abrasive than Vare or myself. "But irregardless, critical analysis DOES NOT not mean being critical," I'm not trying to be a smartass but critical analysis does exactly imply being critical. However, and I think this is what you intended with your words, it does not mean being rude. I used to fight tooth and nail on this board to encourage critiquing by all. In fact I used to be one of the moderators here a few years ago and the lack of effort by posters to offer each other any real help via critiques really burned me out for awhile. So I completely agree with what you are saying, in fact I believe I have already explained and apologized many times for my insensitive critiques while acting as Vare in my post above. Anyways, thank you for taking the time to respond, Trevor |
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Gina Culliney Member
since 2003-03-08
Posts 170 |
yes, thank God for the editor's, when they do their jobs right. Can't live with them and you can't live without them. But there is a right way and a wrong way to do research for a story, an article, a research paper, and a professional way to conduct one's self when going about doing it. I am appalled still with your weak apology and lame excuse's. There is a professional pecking order, which you are so right about, and when every writer reaches that developmental stage in his or her career, they do not tolerate slashing out at other fellow writer's in any shape form or fashion, no matter the reasons behind it. As a young writer, I wished I had known about pip and the wonderful opportunities it provides for developmental growth and creativity. Unfortunately, I have turned out to be quite the rogue in this field due to circumstances, situations, and lol forgive me, people like you. Experiments + human guinea pigs = one bad story. Something I hope you will sincerely remember in the near future. (Geeze, did I spell Guinea pig right, quick get my editor!lol!) |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hi Hush, "'Perhaps a large majority do not treat each other based upon how people should be treated but rather based upon how they "feel" about someone.' Don't you think that should be a factor? I don't treat my boyfriend and my father in the same manner... because I feel differently about each of them. I don't know, I mean Hitler treated the Jews based upon his feelings of them so I don't know if I agree with your statement. I think people do treat each other based upon emotions, which I guess can often be as helpful as it is harmful. Not to treat people with emotions would mean that no one would love one another, but at the same time, no one would hate either. "I wish I could find a soure of more unconditional love for others, but the proud part of me always wants the last word... always wants to point out "Hey, you screwed up too!" Oh Jeeze, I know that feeling...at least I don't think we are alone with it at this place Thanks for taking the time to respond. Take Care, Trevor |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hi Ron, I totally agree with what you said with your stick poke - dog bite analogy. However how many times should the dog be allowed to bite back before the roles are reversed. When does defending oneself become an attack? "Your experiment wasn't just ill-considered, Trevor, it was reprehensible. You intentionally set out to hurt others for your own gain, and I honestly can't think of a better definition for meanness than that." And I also completely agree with you on this point as well. It was a mean thing to do and because it was ill-concieved I didn't see it as such. Obviously I did not think it through enough or reach a better conclusion before embarking on this course, and I say obviously because why on earth would I spend all this time trying to make ammends for the wrongs I have commited. If I was as truly detestable and my apologies as hollow as you go on to say than why would I waste hours trying to heal any hurt that I have caused. "Apologies prefaced with excuses and immediately followed with "but" have a tendency to ring hollow." That is only if you feel there be no explanation for why a person does what they do. I have not once tried to excuse my behaviour or justify it in any way or to anyone,...only explain it. What I did was wrong and I don't know how many more times I can say this. I think I have already admitted to this but it was extremely naive of me to think that it would be easy to mend what I did as Vare. Again, if I had thought otherwise I would not have done such. If people knew when they would make mistakes there would be no mistakes. But since we all faulter sometimes, and since I am not around PIP in person to make ammends all I can offer is numerous apologies...publicly and in private. I don't know about you but I can't think of a single person that I've ever encountered that has never intentionally hurt someone for some reason or another. Money, relationships, work, power...hell, just because you were having a bad day. I'm not saying this as an excuse, there is no good excuse for such actions and I take full blame for my actions, as should everyone regarding everything they do but look deep at yourself and what you know of me and then question how bad of a person am I and then decide if I should be forgiven. I think it unfair to base the sincerity of my words on one gross error. "To suggest everyone should share in your guilt only mocks your guilt." I'm not asking for people to share my guilt but when is the point where I have to say enough is enough, there is no more I can do or say to mend what I have done, the rest is up to them and if people continue a stance of attacking rather than forgiveness then I will feel like I have no other option but to defend myself. There is no more reason for people to attack me, they have won, I am defeated, the war is over, the outcome is settled and I am a fool. I even have no problem with people venting their frustration with me, even in a harsh manner as a form of retribution but again I ask, how many times should I let the dog bite me for poking it with a stick? I have unfortunately earned and am reaping what I have sown and I can accept that and will allow it to happen for a period of time, but as you recently told another member when inquiring about the fate of another member - there is often much going on that you don't see. Not only am I dealing with this, trying to fix all this publicly, but privately as well. How many times do I have to repeat myself before my words become redundant? And to be honest apologies will only mean so much when one feels forced to continually repeat them. I did not apologize because I felt forced to. I don't have a gun to my head and I could have easily slipped away without anyone knowing that it was me. In fact as we speak I am not even at liberty to continue this conversation. There is nothing that binds me here except wanting to mend hurt feelings. There is no law stating that I have to keep making ammends. To be honest there is little at stake for me because even if all is forgiven I don't know if I will stick around to post and critique. That is not a knock against this site, it is by far the best writing site I have ever come across and the people here are wonderful...all except that damn Vare But I always found that when I do get involved here that my time becomes consumed by it and I get no writing for myself done. The only reason I posted an apology was because I feel that people deserve better than the way I treated them. No one here deserved to be used in my experiment and although too late, I did finally realize that. And regardless of what you think about me initially wanting to post as someone else the fact remains that I did post my apology as myself and did own up to my wrongdoings when I could have easily avoided doing so. I did not have to apologize and if that doesn't validate my sincerity along with the other hoops I've been jumping through than I don't know what will. And for the record I'm not saying all this for sympathy or reverse guilt thingy, I'm just trying to inform everyone, much like everyone else, I too have limits on verbal abuse and I too have feelings. Also the reality is that I have always wanted to help make PIP a good place to visit (that is why I'm shocked at my own conduct), I think the many, many postings, critiques etc and the nature of such can attest to the truth of that statement, however...again..that does not excuse me from my actions but I hope people will take that into consideration when questioning how sincere and serious I am with my apologies. One more point on this subject, like others, I too often act from emotions so how can I not be offended by someone saying that my efforts to mend hurt feelings are insincere when throughout the time that I have been here I have shown so many examples of how much I care about the development of other writers, not just with my time and effort but also by doing my best to respect everyone's feelings and really have only one poorly developed day to contridict this. I can not recall, though there may be, a time where you have ever had to reprimand me for anything I've done here. In fact I believed so much in your vision to have a near perfect writing site where there is a place for everyone that I volunteered my time to moderate. So again, its not meant to deflect or cause any guilt but I can not help feel offended when you accuse me of being insincere with my apologies."Uh, but, Trevor. Should you decide you want to write a story about a serial killer ... DON'T." To be honest, I don't know if I'm completely done with experimenting this way. However I won't try to delve into a first person perspective of a character unless I am sure that no one other than myself would suffer. I have in fact considered shaving my head, wearing glasses, minimalizing talking (which for me would be the hard part), and being meek in order to explore another character for a screenplay I am writing. I don't mean this in an insensitive way to the feelings I've hurt but being Vare for a day was a very important learining experience in both my writing and life. Anyways, I have to go now, once again my apologies. Take care, Trevor There was one more thing I did want to say and that is, after what I have done and said, I appreciate you still allowing me to post here. [This message has been edited by Trevor (06-10-2003 07:26 PM).] |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hi Gina, "But there is a right way and a wrong way to do research for a story, an article, a research paper, and a professional way to conduct one's self when going about doing it." But who decides this, you? If every writer was forced to strictly follow all the rules than the literary world would be quite a dull place. I however, again will say this, I acknowledge that I did cross a line and most certainly discovered a way not to research something. "I am appalled still with your weak apology and lame excuse's." Again this is the frustrating part of it all for me. I have feelings too so I can not help but react to your words. I can offer no more reasons for my actions and no more apologies to make ammends to anyone here. Either people can practise what they preach and eventually except my heartfelt apologies or they can be upset with me till the end of time. I'm not asking for anyone to like me, befriend me and come over to dinner on Sunday but I am asking for those I hurt for forgiveness. And although I completely understand why you would be bothered by my postings at Vare, and understand why you would stick up for fellow members, I do not see your point in continuing your attack other than adding fuel to a fire that some are trying to extinguish. It is the continued aggravation of the situation by those who will not allow me to, in any way, make ammends for my wrongful actions that are beginning to make me slide to the defensive. If it continues this way then I will have no other alternative but to become defensive. One of the reasons I felt so awful about what I had done is because I suspect one of the individuals I had insulted was of a fairly young age and I was worried that such an experience might dissuade her from continuing her studies in this art (I think a personal letter to Pete or Ratleader can attest that this was a concern of mine). And since you don't know me I will explain that I have always tried to encourage writing and the growth of such at this forum and with everyone I have encountered. My ways have often differed and conflicted with others here but I believe I have always treated these differences with respect....that is until Vare. "There is a professional pecking order, which you are so right about, and when every writer reaches that developmental stage in his or her career, they do not tolerate slashing out at other fellow writer's in any shape form or fashion, no matter the reasons behind it." No offense but I don't see how a pecking order is relevant to giving anyone the respect they deserve or tolerating bad behaviour. Regardless of ability or stature in the writing field everyone is entitled to respect until they prove otherwise, (as I have lately been deserved of some disrespect), and I can not see how being a "professional" should differ this. Not to mention that I feel your statement is false considering the countless examples of widely revered artists who were also notoriously abusive. So again, talent, ablility, career in my opinion, has little to do with fair practise of basic human dignities or ones ability to stand up for these. "As a young writer, I wished I had known about pip and the wonderful opportunities it provides for developmental growth and creativity. Unfortunately, I have turned out to be quite the rogue in this field due to circumstances, situations, and lol forgive me, people like you." Again you try to add fuel to the fire and attack someone you don't even know. Though I'm not really Vare, I am known to be able to verbally defend myself in quite a mean fashion so if you want push to grow into shove then by all means laugh at me again. I said earlier I found it interesting that people will drop their standards to suit the mood, however I did not I was not the type to do such as well. In fact I readily admited to have been drawn into a mudslinging match. I'm not trying to continue this arguement but I urge you to re-examine what you have said about someone acting superior and consider this if you choose to respond to me again. For to laugh at me, when I'm not telling a joke, is to try and place me below you and I am no one's lesser just as I am no one's better regardless of the grave mistake I have commited here. "Experiments + human guinea pigs = one bad story. Something I hope you will sincerely remember in the near future." Again I have to disagree with you here. The quality of the story, if I chose to write it, would probably be vastly improved by experimenting with people. However the quality of someone else's writing, like a person whom I've insulted, might decrease due to a lack of confidence for fear of harsh and abusive criticism when they publicly show their work. I think this fear rages in every inspiring writer and does not need extra prodding to be detrimental. This is my belief, therefore I am attempting to ensure this doesn't happen despite my previous foolishness. "(Geeze, did I spell Guinea pig right, quick get my editor!lol!)" Yes but proper english dictates that you should have used the word "correctly", instead of "right", followed immediately by a question mark. I'm getting the impression that you felt my use of your response in my public apology was perhaps a knock towards you. I sincerely don't and didn't mean it as such if that is how it was interpreted. I was only using it as another example of what I see as the duality of the whole situation. In no way do I think that dissecting this experience in my life and looking at it from a personal growth point of view, should detract from the sincerity of my apology. And again, if you feel that it was an insult, I do apologize and will try to choose my words more carefully. Thanks for your time, take care, Trevor |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Aha! I got bullets!  |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Pete, can I borrow a few? Ron has asked me to do some research on serial killers? |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Hey Trevor, you know I almost asked Tomir if he was a drifter from the 'Poetry Free For All' forum? Seemed appropriate. |
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cynicsRus Senior Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 591So Cal So Cool! |
Trevor, In all sincerity, I will be looking forward to your critiques. No, I didn't care for Vare's condescending, acrimonious tones as you have already reasoned. Yet, I've learned in the last few years of posting poetry, that the most honest--albeit brutal critics--have often been the most helpful to me. I readily admit that I have much less knowledge of poetry than most here, but I have a desire to learn. It won't bother me if you tell me exactly what you think of my poetry. I may not necessarily agree with your suggestions or I may end up going in another direction altogether, but I promise to respect your right to state your opinion about it. Sid (cynicsRus) |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
Just don't let it happen again, or we'll be forced to  take that Vare out behind the rat infested wood pile and teach him some manners! LOL. Now, what was that you said about our collective human inclination to retaliation?  Since Ron said you can stay, maybe it's time to put this thread to bed. G'nite. |
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Seth Member
since 2003-04-13
Posts 74Arizona |
I want you to know that I am writing this without reading what others have said. I am at work and have been for days and the chance to "catch up" on things has been slim to none. I want you to know that I found your poem interesting but needing work, thus right for this forum. I did however note that you misspelled at least one word in your critique of my poem whether or not that was intentional is known only to you. I do not recal receiving a letter of appology although this post more than makes up for it. Ethical questions aside, my first reaction to what you have done is to cheer. Had I read this in a book or seen this in a film I would have laughed, so why should I not when it has happend to me? You were infact, "toying" with others emotions and that is grey, at best. Being that it took place on a critique forum...I think it history will forget the matter unless of course it winds up on the best seller list and then only two or three of us will have any idea what went on. Not to reduce your little experament to a joke, but having just read this for the first time, I am still laughing. I am wondering, how did you choose whom to attack? Was it random, or did you find things in the poetry that you felt truely lacked and then comment in a less than tactfull way? I will end first draft and get back to work. jdh aka Mr. Seth |
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raevynsbreath Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 64Mi, USA |
people, people! must we continue to dwell on what trevor said and didn't say? does it really matter here? he did, afterall, say something to what happened here. he's a courageous man for doing so. i think people who were affected and those who were not should just get over all this. vare was not real, therefore, most of the comments were coming from a character. in a book. can we all be adults here again? these childish ways have gone on far too long. trevor, you've done more, apologizing, than you did as vare! lol. all of the standards and bickerings of these people have hit rock hard bottom. and i laugh heartily at such. we are online. this is a forum. opinions don't have to be taken to heart, especially if they're not being shouted in your face. move on. i did. good day. _rae |
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Seth Member
since 2003-04-13
Posts 74Arizona |
Have you read any of the posts _rae? It seems everyone has moved on...glad to hear you have been able to put the past behind you and move forward with your life. Miracles still happen! Who knew? Seth |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Yes, it seems to me that everyone has gotten over it. I don't see any reason we can't have a little fun over it now. Whatever damage was done has been explained if not corrected, sincere apoligies have been made and accepted and I believe Trevor has been welcomed back. So let's move on. But, if you still want to take a friendly jab ... well, this thread is still open. Be nice though and make it friendly. Pete |
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raevynsbreath Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 64Mi, USA |
ahahaha. better late then never i suppose! oh well. good day then. _rae |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
Anyone up for hide and seek? Hey, Trev, I have a second pen name here at Pips, but only used it three or four times. Since I forgot my second password, I can't sign in anyway. That muse was a dud anyway.  |
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raevynsbreath Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 64Mi, USA |
hide and seek? please, continue to explain. i'm interested! |
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Justin Sayne Member
since 1999-10-09
Posts 53 |
Play Hide & Seek.. It's Justin Sayne; For after all, what's in a name? Who'd ever guess if we're disguised? Our other selves might be apprised. We've cloaked ourselves so Justin Kace You try to glimpse a hidden face We'll hide Justin the Nick of Thyme To pen more Hide & Seeking rhyme...  |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Well, it seems I missed out here. The 'crisis' may be over but the discussion is not finished. It never is. What perhaps needs to be explained is what CA has been about in the first place. If I have had any influence at all on the 'feel' of this place (and I'm just arrogant enough to think I have), then it's really only based on two or three assumptions about commenting, assumptions that Trevor and I worked out a few years ago when we frequented another place. The first assumption: 1. This is great. This poem really touched me = I liked it. 2. This is crap. This is the most worthless piece of drivel I have ever read = I disliked it. Once we figured that out, it was pretty easy to realize that neither comment was helpful, neither critical, nor analytical. What we wanted was to talk about the poetry because, amazingly enough, we actually believed that was important. Early on, though, our attempts to attack the 'this is great' comments meant with an argument that really coudn't be countered: time. How could we honestly tell people to give us more, to be more analytical (Whatever that means.) -- as opposed to more critical -- if they said, "I don't have the time to do that," but still wanted to comment on the poem? Did we really want to say, "Then say nothing at all"? Of course not. So we realized that while we couldn't get rid of the nice comments, we did have a way to push the negative comments to the background. If you're going to say, "This poem is crap" then explain to the author why it is crap and once you do that there is no reason to say, "This poem is crap". Anyone who has ever taken the time to explain what it is you don't like about a poem, knows what I'm talking about. The amazing thing, however, is that when pushed, many (but sadly not all) people will take up the challenge and try to explain what it is they don't like a poem. If they don't, it's because they have made certain assumptions about what good poetry is and are unwilling to state them explicitly. For if they are made explicit, they are shown to be what they are: Personal opinions that have no basis in the tradition of poetry. I have called these people the intermediate bunch, but what I mean by that is that they are sophmoric (in the literal sense of the term) in that they attempt to reduce the tradition of poetry to rules. When someone does this, it is easy to show their mistake because one can refute any rule about poetry by quoting a poem that is generally recognized as part of the tradition. But that led us to the second assumption: It makes no sense to assert that one aspect of a poem is more important than another. We may not have said it quite like that back then, but the point was to let the reader decide what he or she thought was important and then let the author decide if that was important. But we never fooled ourselves into thinking that what we said was better or worse, more objective or not, than something somebody else said. It's all opinion. Now, that conclusion is problematic, but not for the reason most people think (that one can ignore it because it's not fact for example -- what we want when showing a poem is just that, an opinion). The problem is that most people are uncomfortable stating their opinion and most people state their opinions as fact. If you want an example of this, just look at the phrasing of those who have criticized Trevor here. And this leads us to a third assumption: No one is in authority What I mean by that is that no one can always be right or always be wrong. Each point must be judged on its own merit regardless of who said it. Any claim to being a published writer or editor or professor is just so much hot air, there are no authorities here. We are not a teaching forum, we are a forum of peers. If teaching (or more importantly learning) happens, great. But that has never been the goal of this forum. The goal has always been to talk about the poetry. With all that said, I think that the whole problem was either Trevor didn't accept these assumptions (didn't back up his criticism and therefore weaken the punch of saying, "This is crap" to the point when it no longer need be said or the readers of Trevor didn't take these factors into consideration. I don't know, I haven't read all the comments, but what I have read seems to me to be two or three people telling other people what to do. And that misses the whole point of this forum. By the way, Trevor, I read "the Furnace". It's a piece of crap. [This message has been edited by Brad (06-13-2003 11:00 PM).] |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
Brad, I beg to differ with you about 'The Furnace' being crap. It reads more like half rotted steaming compost. In other words, it's not quite there yet, but is well on its way to being SOMETHING. OK, so now it's time for all of us to go back to our individual drawing boards and pen something original and worthy of taking up valuable blue space. Or at least, have some creative fun. I think we all take ourselves too seriously. Justin Sayne, LOL, love your name and your sense of humor. [This message has been edited by Midnitesun (06-14-2003 12:05 AM).] |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hello to all, I've returned to comment after some pondering, thought maybe I could share my thoughts. First, thanks to everyone for, well everything, such as participating - albiet unknowingly for the first half of this matter and secondly - for your patience, forgiveness and understanding (at least some of you And one last apology, I'm sorry if I seemed if I was a bit defensive in my apologies. I had literally been writing hours and hours worth of emails apologizing for what happen, then of course posting another one here and responding to it as well. So I started to get fatigued from saying sorry. Anyways, I'll move on.Sid: If I do critique more of your work, don't fret about me being honest. Other than as Vare, I don't think I've ever fabricated my opinions on people's work here. There's no real point, I mean, why ask someone their opinion if you aren't looking for a truth. People who want immediate accolades regardless of the quality of their work should probably just cut to the chase when asking for a critique and just say, "Love me.", instead. But I've always found that honesty is probably the most sincere form of respect...Yeah, I know, big words from a guy who's doofy enough to live as a ficticious character and wreck havoc as such. I'm a hypocrite, what can I say, but that doesn't mean those words have no merit. Thanks for taking the time to respond. Take care. Kacy: Hide and Seek? What a great idea, you hide and I'll count to 100 gazzilion "Kidding of course", Trev says while crushing eggshells.Seth: Sorry you didn't get your email. Trust me, it was a brilliant critique and a tear jerking apology. j/k. I often wondered what my honest reaction would be if the tables were turned and I was on the recieving end of all this. Honestly I think I'd have much the same reaction as you. I think I'd try and first bury Tomir in a flurry of smiteful words, then after I found out what happened, I'd probably have a chuckle. But that's just little old me and it's interesting to see the wide variety of reactions. To answer your questions about how I choose my attackees, it was a first come first serve policy. In fact Rae - informed me that ironically my first review as Tomir was her first poetry posting here. It really had nothing to do with the quality of work, everyone got the same treatment except for Sid's poem "Crushed". I really dug the ending a lot and I found it hard to stay in character. I wanted to give a serious critique because out of the poems I read that day, that was the best and although I really good poem, I thought that if he looked a bit harder at, revised it a bit, it he could work it into an excellent one. But that's just my opinion...and I have no idea how much that is worth these days...But I'm an honest enough liar to tell you the truth. Thanks for responding, take care. Rae: I don't know which you prefer, this name, your real name or the full Raevynsbreath...so I'll stick with this. Thanks for being my little ol' defender. I haven't seen anyone work this hard defending the guilty since Johnny Cochrane and Judge Ito. Your like an older brother, except your a girl, not related, probably younger than I and you didn't steal my toys or shove me in the dryer. But other than that, just like the older brother I wish I had. Thanks for everything. Take care.Pete: Yes, I'm not above a friendly jab or two...However, since you know how religious I am - "It is better to, (to, in Trevlatin meaning "for Trevor to"), give than recieve." Thanks for everything Pete. Take care. Brad: ...My goodness it has been a long time. How have you been? Some excellent points in your response. Why for some strange reason, does every conversation I've ever been in at CA, always somehow leads or lends itself to critiquing. I'd go over some of your points but it would be nothing more than a rehash because you already know how much I agree with you and I really have nothing of use at this moment to add. What I find interesting of late, and people are going to start boring of me because I'm finding to many trivial things interesting these days, but I find the evolution of a discussion kinda fascinating. How it starts out, this one, with remorse, followed by anger, then a defensive stand, followed by more anger, frustration, then an easing of the guard by everyone, some humor interjected to lighten the mood, maybe some curiousity, I think some acceptance, then exploring more ideas from the above. Well maybe it bores some people but I'm kinda fascinated by all of it. How much of it is the evolution of a conversation and how much of it is the daily evolution of a person? "By the way, Trevor, I read "the Furnace". It's a piece of crap." Now I've come to the point where I'm just plum fresh out of original witty rebuttals. What can I say to that? I haven't read any of your recent work, so I can't attack that. I agree with your statements so I can't attack them, and even if I didn't like what you had to say, what am I going to do, copy-cat and call it crap? You aren't in striking distance so I can't throw my cup'o'hot coffee at you. Hell, I'll compliment ya, nice jab ya stinking arse. Nice to see you are still haunting this place Ogre. Hope all is well. Take care.Kacy: Please see the above arse commentary Thanks and Take care.Thanks again to all. Trevore |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
Glad you came back to this fascinating thread. Trevor, to an organic gardener (me), the compost remark was meant as a complement, even if it came out uniquely 'left handed' and a bit stinky. I apologize if you thought it was an offensive comment. BTW, I'm thanking you personally for getting me off my lazy complacent duff and actually considering posting something in CA that BEGS for a serious critique number. (most of my stuff does) And it may not show up under MSUN name, but my hide and seek nom de plume, if I can find my password. [This message has been edited by Midnitesun (06-14-2003 05:45 PM).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Well, it didn't seem my ironic last comment didn't work very well. The statement as written is useless for this forum and can therefore be ignored, or if you want to censure me for saying it, please do so. |
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Jamie Member Elite
since 2000-06-26
Posts 3168Blue Heaven |
I agree with most of what Brad said. Most. Sometimes though saying something is a piece of crap really does say pretty much everything that needs said. Take a used car for example... I remember this one piece of crap I bought... JThere is society where none intrudes, by the deep sea, and music in its roar. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
And of course, you're right, Jaime. But is it an analysis? The point is that an analysis will do the work, help both the reader and the writer, if it is done without having to say that. It may be your initial reaction, but it's shock value is substantially diminished to the point of uselessness if we give a proper analysis. Part of the problem is the confusion between 'critical' meaning negative and critical conjoined with analysis as in the 'literary criticism'. It's amazing how many people, people who consider themselves serious writers or poets, run that distinction together. I'm going to generalize here: people who think that if you have nothing positive to say, then you should say nothing, consciously or unconsciously, want to privilege the poet (usually themselves) over the critic; those who think they have every right to say what they like when they like wans privilege the critic (usually themselves) over the poet. The goal has always been to privilege nobody here and to let people talk about poetry. Now, it's a goal of course and no one is saying that we've ever reached, but we've gotten damn close on a few occasions. There is no contradiction between being civil and being critical. |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Well. One week offline and look at this...go check your e Rev-Trev... Brad - is it really as black and white as that? One privileging the other? I suppose in a world of binary oppositions it may well be... After all what do you get when you throw a bunch of rhymers, amateurs, free-versers, bit-of-everythings, have-been-publisheds, have-not-been-publisheds, 'serious' poets, sensitive poets and the list goes on...into a room (be it cyber or real) together? Apparently a bit of a mess... Nice to see you Trev - really. I've missed you. Though I do prefer Trev and not that other nasty guy.. huggles  K |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
Trev understood what I meant. There is a big difference between critical analysis of a work and just plain criticizing, at least to me. I don't object to anyone more knowledgeable than myself (or less, for that matter) analyzing or even ripping apart my work line-by-line, word-by-word. I'm tougher than a creampuff, but when the digs get down and dirty, they are no longer valuable critiques. Not every writer who posts here has had the advantage of a college level writing course, complete with red penmarks from start-to-finish. I've had some things marked up so much all I saw was red. Yep, pun intended. and I've also had things handed back to me with A++ and NO comments, which really made me angry because I knew there were mistakes that should have been highlighted. The main reason I came into this forum this month is a series of emails I received from two young novice writers who felt they had been nearly destroyed, and were afraid to post anything more at Pips. That left a very nasty taste in my mouth. 'nuff said. |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hi all, Sun: No apologies necessary, I didn't take it as an insult but rather as some playful poking. Clever little composte comment. And I did understand what you meant by your comments, however I'm going to have to disagree again with how you've presented your point. Criticsm, is not, or should not be regarded as something bad because as Brad pointed out it can be done in a civil manner. I think we are just debating word choice now, but it is an important part of this discussion considering it is about writing. Criticizing something, or scrutinizing its worth is, in my opinion, an extremely valuble tool for a writer, both in terms of directly developing their own work and dissecting other work to learn from. Knowing ones errors is as important as knowing one's successes. But I do agree with you in that it should be done in a kind way otherwise any value to the information may be lost. "I'm tougher than a creampuff, but when the digs get down and dirty, they are no longer valuable critiques" And I think Brad illustrated that well when he commented on my response to his "crap" comment. There is nothing to substantiate his words, therefore, until proven valuble by reasoning of why, it should be ignored. Brad: Another good example of how easy it is to be drawn into a comment. Even though I only thought of your statment as a friendly, one good turn deserves another, I could not help but feel compelled to do the same. It often becomes a one'up type of scenario. Even with civil discussions this happens. People draw out good points and the rest feel compelled to take it to a higher level if they can. Which to me is vunderbar. And I think that is what people have been doing with this thread. I did my goofy writing experiment and added in some of my thoughts on it and now it has evolved into something a lot more useful via everyone else's participation. Perhaps its good to note that although most can be easily sucked into negativity, that most can also rise to the occasion when motivated. And Brad, for the record, did you honestly think I would be clever enough to find the irony in your statement? Queen K: I'll let you and Brad duke it out on this one, not because I have nothing to offer the discussion but rather because I'm feeling rather lazy today. However, one point in general I would like to make to everyone is about "privileging" the poet, based upon what Brad said....By not expressing one's negative thoughts, (though such should be done civily here), on a writer's work, how much are you really privileging them? Criticism, if done politely, is as valuble as praise to a writer. If a writer helps shape their work by the commentary, then if denied a full spectrum of views, how informed are they about their own work? And is being un-informed really a privilege? And if it is not, how helpful are we by forcing ourselves to hold back? ANyways, my time is up, thanks to everyone. Tevor |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: I think so. I think it all boils down to who 'has the right' to say what they think. |
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raevynsbreath Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 64Mi, USA |
i find it funny how quickly this little apology on a poetry entry has become such a spot for conversation. trevor. you make me laugh. i loved the awkwardness in which you wrote that note to me. it's good to know that i've helped you in some way even though i showed up late, swords at the ready. and i feel the same way. haha. so anyhow, what was it that i heard about hide and seek like ten messages ago? hello? anybody? well if you do know, let me know. hahaha! have a nice day! _rae |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
Hide and seek...a modified modern version of the kids game, only now, we use the net and our pen names, post and run, then pop up again later, unexpectedly, to 'tag' you again. The idea came to my mind after reading Trev's research project explanation. Maybe we could turn this experience into a VERY creative separate forum? It might be fun, but of course, it could only happen if Ron should decide to open a "Pandora's Pounding Box." Now you KNOW I am The Loon. ROTFL [This message has been edited by Midnitesun (06-16-2003 08:12 PM).] |
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raevynsbreath Member
since 2003-06-06
Posts 64Mi, USA |
hahah! that's so cool. i think we should do it! the mischief needs out once in a while. _rae |
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