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hush
Senior Member

since 2001-05-27

Posts 1653
Ohio, USA

0 posted 2002-12-15 02:23 AM

This is an older one, I posted it here before. Original thread:
/pip/Forum28/HTML/000030.html

Revision:

Violet

When I told her she had stars in her eyes
she gave me a cool lean-back-in-the-chair reply:
“I guess that’s ‘cause I’m gone on you.”
and I smiled shyly, lowering my sight
to the coffee-ring table-top
in the busy-street coffee-shop;
the perfect unpretentious place
to treat a date, but
I didn’t quite expect to participate in
an oscar-winning conversation.

I wondered if I’d practiced my lines long enough,
if my comment had clearly conveyed
the way the silver speaks up
out of her deep-current blue irises.
And I felt so inadequate, because
it seemed she’d known her part from the start,
retorting with only a moment’s pause
which was meant to make me feel
like interesting dinner talk,
regarded with detached contemplation,
which I guess I was.
At least that’s the role I was written into,
and I was thrust into this scene
without a script
to serenade the star
and (oh god) I never intended
to make it quite this far.

Still examining the woodgrain
I glanced up in relief
as the waitress brought our plates
(mine, ham-and-cheese;
hers, just a salad, please)
she was surly-cigarette-bleachy-blonde,
as out of place in the somber surroundings
of Columbia’s best and touted intellect
as I was on the thin ice
of this woman’s gaze.

Christopher

Moderator

Member Rara Avis

since 1999-08-02

Posts 8296
Purgatorial Incarceration

1 posted 2002-12-15 07:30 AM

diggin' this... it is stikes me as a concise, dramatized "love scene" from a film (not a movie, a film, lol). a stick-to-your-ribs kind of scene that you feel as much as you see. that's where i think you did your best job on this - converying emotion through visuals. very well done, it gave me a pace and pulled me along.

i had two 'issues' with this:

1) "...seemed she'd known her part from the start" - first off, ick on the cliche. there are uses, i believe for something so set, but not here, not in this piece, not so... blase? it is a speedbump on an otherwise smooth highway. secondly, the rhyming made the speedbump square, instead of rounded, accentuating the incongruity. i just didn't like it.

2) i like the introduction of the waitress at the end - she serves as a good distractor to the main intent, giving one the impression of an uncomfortable pause. the issue there is that it felt... i don't know - i know that the "woman's gaze" is the table partner, but it almost reads as if it's the waitress who becomes the focus, rather than the other. perhaps you can make another reference to the person at the table, to make the change of focus more evident?

Just my thoughts. Wasn't in the mood to critique, really, but i always read your poems, even if i don't comment, and i thought this one deserved quite a bit more than a few unhelpful words of appreciation.

quote:
“I guess that’s ‘cause I’m gone on you.”

was my favorite part of this. i like how simple it is, while being unique (to me at least) at the same time. grinnin' here.

hush
Senior Member

since 2001-05-27

Posts 1653
Ohio, USA

2 posted 2002-12-15 11:26 AM

Actually, I owe "gone on you" to Elizabeth Wurtzel. I can't remember which book of hers I read that line in, but reading that one line pretty much wrote this poem for me.

Yeah, I was kind of stuck on "part from the start" when I was revising this, not sure whether to keep it or change it.... I'll have to think on that one. Any suggestions?

On the last stanza:

'she was surly-cigarette-bleachy-blonde,
as out of place in the somber surroundings
of Columbia’s best and touted intellect
as I was on the thin ice
of this woman’s gaze.'

To me, I thought it was fairly clear that I was comparing the waitress to the narrator- they're both out of their element in teo seperate ways. I thought that the use of 'this woman' set her far enough apart from the waitress? Maybe not...

You were right to pick up on some ambiguity there though- my intention was, in part, to shift the focus, as that's what the narrator is doing, quite thankfully... "Hey, a distraction! I can stall for a minute thinking of a suitable reply."

When titling this poem, though, I guess I kind of intended for he reader to wonder who Violet is. Is Violet the woman across the table? The waitress? If you're open to a homosexual relationship, could Violet be the narrator? (I honestly don't intend the narrator for the interpretation, I tried to write him in as a male voice, but I see it as a possibility) But narrowing it down to the two women, though, the distraction is supposed to be the crux. Here's this too-cool woman he's trying to impress, but in the end, he seems happier to see a waitress that he feels he has something in common with. You're supposed to wonder who the poem's really about. Or at least, that's what I wanted.

Thanks for taking the time to read.

Christopher

Moderator

Member Rara Avis

since 1999-08-02

Posts 8296
Purgatorial Incarceration

3 posted 2002-12-15 08:39 PM

maybe something like "...because / it seemed she had no doubts / retorting..." or somthing along those lines. that is a hard one - to maintain the intent with differnt words, lol.

see, i know you're a lady (heh) so i read this as a homosexual interaction, as if it was from your perspective... because i didn't and still don't see any definitive maleness about the speaker. perhaps if that's an important part of your intent, you can find something to push that forward more? either way, it works for me... actually, personally, it works better in my mind as a homosexual encounter. i felt as if it were a new thing for the speaker, encountering this attraction for someone of the same sex. i felt desire and interest, but also a good amount of the uncertainty you speak of, which fits in well with how i read it.

as to the last - i can see how you were looking for ambiguity, and think if that wsa your intent, you did pretty well. however, seeing as how the focus was on the table-partner throughout, my mind knew that at the end you were referring to that same person and not the waitress, which is why it felt clumsy (sort of like this run-on sentence).

hope it helps!

Not A Poet
Member Elite

since 1999-11-03

Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA

4 posted 2002-12-16 10:24 AM

Hi Hush,

Like Christopehr, I read this all along as a lesbian relationship. It may be that I was just influenced by knowing your sex but it may also be that the voice just sounded more feminine than masculine. If the latter then you may want to reconsider the language some or at least the inflection. On second thought though, I really enjoyed the language as presented. After your explanation, I can also accept it as a man's voice.

I was a little confused by the last stanza too. I think maybve you could make it a little more clear that the negative description is for the waitress rather than the date.

BTW, I was not bothered at all by the occasional internal rhyme or playing around with the sounds of words.

Really nice write here.

Thanks,
Pete

brian madden
Member Elite

since 2000-05-06

Posts 4374
ireland

5 posted 2002-12-16 02:23 PM

Hi Hush,
I read this a few times, enjoyed it alot, especially the final stanza, the biting humour and sense of uncomfort in the lines
"as the waitress brought our plates
(mine, ham-and-cheese;
hers, just a salad, please)
she was surly-cigarette-bleachy-blonde,
as out of place in the somber surroundings"
are excellently written.

One issue I have is it the film metaphor, i feel it might slightly over done, this is just my personal opinion. The whole film theme is centred on the speaker and how uncomfortable he/she is sitting in the company of a typical poster Hollywood poster girl (a bland beauty). I feel that maybe some the film metaphors could be used to reveal more about this starlet woman.
Personally i feel it might help to show how uncomfortable the speaker is, how the speaker is almost intimidated by her polished beauty.

This is just the feeling I got while reading the piece. Other than that I really enjoyed
the read.

watched from the wings as the scenes were replayed we saw ourselves now as we never have seen" ian curtis

hush
Senior Member

since 2001-05-27

Posts 1653
Ohio, USA

6 posted 2002-12-16 04:03 PM

Chris-

'as to the last - i can see how you were looking for ambiguity, and think if that wsa your intent, you did pretty well. however, seeing as how the focus was on the table-partner throughout, my mind knew that at the end you were referring to that same person and not the waitress, which is why it felt clumsy (sort of like this run-on sentence).'

Okay.... in the last line 'this woman' is the table-partner. I'm not sure if that's clear that that's what I intended. The ambiguity is supposed to be who the focus of the poem is on, not who the poem is ending on.

Pete-

'I think maybve you could make it a little more clear that the negative description is for the waitress rather than the date.'

What do you mean by negative description? Were you reffering to the 'surly-cigarette-bleachy-blonde'? Okay, I can see where the she's would get mixed up. Would it help if I threw something in like (off the top of my head):

'she was surly-cigarette-bleachy-blonde
in a black skirt and pinstripe blouse,
as out of place in the somber surroundings'

or, to cut out extra wording, something like:

'she was apparently undertipped, a surly-cigarette-bleachy-blonde,
as out of place in the somber surroundings'

?

Brian-

'I feel that maybe some the film metaphors could be used to reveal more about this starlet woman.'

I kind of like this idea- I could probably cull out some of the film cliches and replace them with references... I'm a little hesitant to put definition on the woman the speaker is courting though. I kind of wanted the two women in the poem to remain anonymous and archetypal. To clarify, I really like your idea, I just kind of feel like it's too far from my original intent here... it might even make for a better, more unique poem (she's not just movie-star like, she's like this movie star), but I guess I'm too attached to my original idea to alter it in that way. I'll give it some thought though, I might get more used to the idea.

To all-

I didn't specifically set out to make the reader think that the narrator is male, I guess that's just the frame of mind I wrote it in. It's easier for me to see this scenario as a man attracted to a woman than as a woman attracted to a woman, because I am more accustomed to that type of interaction. It's also easier for me to relate to the narrator as a man, because I usually relate to men much more easily than I do to women. I understand that without a personal explaination of the poem, that's not apparent, but that's how I conceived of the idea as I wrote it. I have no problem with the poem being interpreted differently (like I said, that opens a third possibility as to who 'Violet' is) but I do have a problem with people automatically relating a narrative poem to personal experience. I know that it's something that people do, and it's something I can't stop, and that by posting my poems in a public forum, I allow the possibility of people reading into my personal life through my writing... but I like to write out of character, or at least from out of the periphery of my own life experience.

Contextually, this can be seen in an autobiographical light because I'm one of those chicks who doesn't get on well with other chicks, I like guys more. As such, my point of view regarding women as preoccupied with image, untouchable, too-cool, etc. can be seen in this poem. However, I don't want to portray all women as vain and glamorous, so I presented the archetypal opposite, the chain-smoking minimum-wage waitress. In reality, there are, of course in-betweens, but the speaker sees two extremes.

But I never took this too-cool girl out on a date. This too-cool girl is someone I made up. I don't have a strong fictional suit, but 'autobiographical lying' (a term coined by L.A. Ruocco in her fascinating book 'Document Zippo'- she's had a huge influence on my writing) is a fun way to express reality in terms that I haven't experienced it in. I think a lot of people suffer from being interpreted too literally in their writing- I know a lot of people who can't deal with some of Mark Strand's abstract stuff, while I am absolutely in love with it.

Anyway, I'm going to climb off my soap-box, but it's something that bugs me because people can't seem but help applying a writer's work to their actual lives. I understadn the inclination, but I still don't like it.

Thanks for reading and commenting.

Christopher

Moderator

Member Rara Avis

since 1999-08-02

Posts 8296
Purgatorial Incarceration

7 posted 2002-12-17 07:58 AM

quote:
Okay.... in the last line 'this woman' is the table-partner. I'm not sure if that's clear that that's what I intended. The ambiguity is supposed to be who the focus of the poem is on, not who the poem is ending on.

That's why I put "knew" in italics the last time. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that. I understand what you meant your intent to be, but was showing you what I read from it. There was no question in my mind until you mentioned your intent that the focus was on the table partner (whom I assumed to be Violet).

While my mind was probably influenced by what I know your gender to be, please don't think I considered this an autobiographical work. I allow each poem to stand by its own merit, not making those kind of assumptions.

Not A Poet
Member Elite

since 1999-11-03

Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA

8 posted 2002-12-17 10:58 AM

I seem to have left the impression that I read it as autobiographical. Nothing could be further from the truth. I just got the impression of a female rather than male speaker. Perhaps that was partly because I knew you to be a female writer. More though, it was because the things the speaker noticed and reported seemed more feminine things. The impression struck me as a woman's view.

I am perfectly happy with either interpretation. After reading your explanation, that is just a valid a viewpoint. It's just not the first one I had. Initially, I thought you were experimentally writing of a girl-girl relationship. Now I understand that you were experimenting with writing from a man's perspective. You have done that much more successfully than I could ever hope to write as a woman

But you may have tempted me to give it a try.

Also, something along the lines you suggest would certainly clear up an ambiguity I might have had vis-a-vis the waitress at the end. After further reading though I'm not sure it really is necessary. I don't think that remark could have logically applied to the main subject, therefore the waitress is the only one left. I would not want you to muddy up the poem but adding too much excess stuff that really doesn't contribute. You have a real talent for saying a lot with few words. And that is a very good thing.

Thanks,
Pete

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