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traffic (revision)
| Critical Analysis #2 |
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traffic (revision) |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Okay, I pretty much did an overhaul- I'll post the revision, and then my sepcific questions regarding how it comes across. The wind assaults the senses as an armed assailant; sooty city smells and cold air are its weapons a block away from winter I think a shock away from better and leaves are corseted in the black trunk of the street, composing a dead jagged river pulled tight and breathless until it billows out, whispering remnant of summer days relieved (relived) a treetop expanding in the delta of an intersection the flowing swirl of brilliancy surges past a stop sign, tornadoes and cartwheels unrestricted until struck down by Soderbergh’s monolith, caught in the treads and grills of obscurity. A week later, the snow sneaks in on little cat feet but it doesn’t move on. --- Okay, here are my specific concerns: 1. I almost never use center-alignment. I usually tend to think it presents the poem in a fluffy, greeting-card form, however, here I was hoping to achieve some of the 'feelings' of movement Rob mentioned in his first critique of the original. I did play with line length and breaks as well. Did I succeed? 2. Verbosity. This is much mroe wordy than the original (I think.) That's different from me, because I'm usually a straight-to-the-point kinda girl. It's very unusual for me to stick with a poem more than a few pages long unless it has a jaunty flow- Aaanyway, talk about verbosity- back to my point. Is it too wordy, too slow now? Or does taking the pace down a notch give the reader more time to digest what's being said? 3. 'dead jagged river' I don't think this phrase works very well now that I've completely revamped my entire image to mirror that of a tree- the narrow street being the trunk, and the intersection being the branching out of leaves- now 'river' seems a contrasting and completely extraneous image. So, is it worth reworking, or should I trash those two lines? 4. 'tornadoes and cartwheels' Too corny? Trying to create a feeling of joy at being freed, but is this a little too much? 5. The Carl Sandburg reference- I think I've done better with the snow bit- and by incorporating another poet's lines in here I wanted to convey more strongly the snow being representative of ending that last shot at creativity. Does it work? Also, just on a purely technical note, when using lines from someone else's poem like that, do copywrite laws or anything like that necessitate a note of reference, as in an essay? Is it just common courtesy to say "Hey, I used someone else's idea," or is it acceptable to wait around and see if the reader picks up on the reference? Or does one simply have to get permission from the writer (or whoever is authorized to make those decision if the writer is dead) if it's meant to be published? not that I'm going to try to publish this- I'm just curious. Okay- if you've read this far, your continued interest is much appreciated. If you reply, your input is also very much appreciated. Thanks. |
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caterina Member
since 2002-07-25
Posts 188Canada |
Hi hush, For me and this is just me-- I really don't care for the center format... it does remind me of the greeting card format as you have stated. Yeah, it's a little more wordier but easily remedied by eliminating some of the ans, as-- the unnecessary little pests that we always include and never notice until someone else points them out. I am not too crazy about the dead jagged river thingy-- this being dead leaves with the jagged edges... but I think I am having problems with it being a river. It could be just me.... but is there something else besides a river that you can think of? What about furrows? But then I don't know if that would coincide with tight/breathless/billows. For some reason I have the word pool in my mind... don't know, all I do know is that 'dead jagged river' doesn't jive with me. It could be the fact that a river is alive and the word dead is throwing me off. Ok, enough of that-- next. I really like the line 'a block away from winter' and I would really like to see you get rid of 'I think'-- you really don't need it-- it sounds so much better as 'a block away from winter, a shock away from better'... I love those 2 lines. Having trouble with 'the flowing swirl of brilliancy' hush-- first of all-- do you really need flowing and swirl.... perhaps one or the other and I don't see leaves as brilliant-- can't think of anything right now but I'll think on it. I wonder if you could find a better word for surges-- dives, whizs-- something different, surges is too often used, I think. Tornadoes and cartwheels-- well, I think one or the other but not both-- just too much to deal with-- I had it in my mind like tumbleweeds bouncing along-- don't laugh, I did. Don't think you need the line 'unrestricted until'-- 'struck down' cancels that out. For me, 'sneaks in on little cat feet' doesn't fit in with the poem. I could be wrong though-- perhaps someone else will have no problem with it. That's just my little ole opinion. Actually, if I remember correctly, I think I like your original ending better. I wish you had the original and revised in the same thread. Oh well, I'll take a look again later and see again. In the first stanza-- why not break it down to The wind, an armed assailant assaults with sooty city smells Just an idea and you already have the word armed and examples of how it is armed-- and that in itself tells us they are to be considered as weapons. I would just go with 'leaves corseted'-- not really keen on 'black trunk'-- with that I see a black tree stump and I don't think that is what you want us to see-- maybe funneled like something or other, if I do think of something I'll come back-- but for now I am stumped.  I like your title-- what would you think about "traffic flow' or 'flowing traffic' just to give a little more to the content of the poem. Ok, hush, don't know if I was any help, but that is what I read, saw and felt with this one. I like it. caterina |
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Crazy Eddie Member
since 2002-09-14
Posts 178 |
Hush, I don’t like centre alignment, I always end up trying to work out what the shape is meant to depict – is it a woman in a big hat; a Greek vase or two faces smiling? The line breaks determine the speed not the wordiness, if you want more pace re-format (though you may lose some emphasis if you do). IMHO the jagged river now falls squarely under the heading ‘wandering’ – I’d lose the lines. I think tornadoes is too specific to wind but cartwheels is perfect, maybe something to replace tornadoes that isn’t a direct reference but close enough – Mistral is a wind and so is Zephyr (which was also a car at one time) perhaps something along those lines would fit. All Zephyrs and cartwheels The snow bit works btw. Thanks for the chance to read and reply |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Hush I am short on time here so if I seem blunt please forgive. The first strophe seems almost redundant, and certainly long-winded (no pun). I’d have been inclined to start off with something simpler. I still have doubts about “I think” but maybe a little re-arrangement would help. “Composing ” is too close to composting and anyway seemed clunky. I still quite like “river” (now with “black trunk” it reminded me of sap flowing, in fact maybe you could use that - the thinking behind it being that the Spring sap helps to form the leaves and so dead they are all that remains of the rising life of Spring) Hmm.. but now I’m wondering whether “billows” works so well with the obvious river imagery. I think it’s ok, and the delta thing is so good it seems a shame to lose it. Yes, and the sap reference would fit with the later ref to “remnant of summer days”. What’s all that with the parenthesis - deliberate? I guess it was. You are indicating the pressure of the build up is relieved and also that the summer days are being relived. Is this an either or, or did you intend for both to stay? If the latter, then it seems a little gimmicky maybe. “A treetop” seemed overkill. By this time I think the sense of what you are trying to say is established. I still can’t “see” brilliancy, but I can’t think of anything else right now. I like your additions in the next section, and now I understand the monolith stuff I guess that’s ok as well. And I like the closure much better, and the finality implied by amending Sandberg’s lines. And yes I think you have to acknowledge the use of the line. I’m not totally sure how it’s done, maybe inverted commas round the quoted line and/or a footnote “With acknowledgements to Carl Sandberg’s “Fog”“ or something. On the formatting. I liked the centering specifically for the central part of the poem but not for the opening and closure. Whether it would look right part centered and part not I’m not sure. Anyway below I’ve done something I never do and rewritten it! Apologies in advance, and I messed around with the line breaks rather a lot in the central section without much clue as to what I was doing! I’ve just left it justified as the shorter lines becoming longer I think do the job quite well as well. Sorry to be so brief. Regards Rob The city wind assaults the senses. A block away from winter, I think, a shock away from better leaves are corseted in a black trunk of street a jagged river of old sap pulled tight and breathless until it billows out, whispering remnant of summer days relieved expanding into the delta of an intersection the flowing swirl of brilliancy surges past a stop sign, tornadoes and cartwheels unrestricted until struck down by Soderbergh’’s monolith, caught in the treads and grills of obscurity. A week later, the snow sneaks in on little cat feet but it doesn’’t move on. |
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Radrook Senior Member
since 2002-08-09
Posts 648 |
Hi! Thanks for explaining the poem's meaning. Enjoyed reading it this time. My suggestions are in brackets: The wind assaults the senses as an armed assailant; sooty city smells and cold air []its weapons a block away from winter I think a shock away from better [] [dead leaves are] corseted in the black trunk of the street, [forming] a [] [No need to repeat the dead part now.] jagged river pulled tight and breathless until [The word composing is too close phonetically to compost which brings to mind putrefaction.] I agree that the word adjective "jagged" is not the right choice here. Perhaps, "...a river of red autumn leaves..." in preparation for the brilliancy part further ahead.] [wind billows the] whispering remnant of summer days relieved (relived) a treetop expanding in the delta of an intersection the flowing swirl of brilliancy [If the reader is to see this brilliancy then the leaves must be previously described as autumn leaves or their colors referred to briefly. That's where the orange-red part is useful. IMHO] surges past a stop sign, tornadoes and cartwheels [I agree with you that these words are a bit too strong. If indeed joy is what we wish to convey here, then perhaps using personification by having the leaves shout for joy is what is needed?] unrestricted until struck down by Soderbergh’s monolith, caught in the treads and grills of obscurity. [I would delete the "Soderbergh’s monolith" part for being too cryptic.] A week later, the snow sneaks in on little cat feet but it doesn't move on. [This message has been edited by Radrook (10-21-2002 09:02 AM).] |
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Radrook Senior Member
since 2002-08-09
Posts 648 |
ooops! I forgot to address some of your concerns! Centering: Centering or any other way in which a poem is presented is entirely the personal choice of the author. I find centering attractive and it makes the poem more visually pleasing in most cases. Neither am I reminded of Hallmark Greeting Cards. Some people are of course--but not me. A national or representative survey would give you the needed statistics as to reader reaction to poem centering. Wordiness? I found the poem OK in that department. Again, it is not word count per-se that determines a poem's efficiency but it is how each word contributes to the poem's purpose. Is the word just lying there doing nothing? Is it essential to the overall effect or meaning? Is it a hindrance to meaning via distraction? Does it enhance the mood or tend to destroy it. As the non essentials are trimmed away the essence will remain. That is how we determine a poem's length. In short, a poem finds its own length via the exigencies of meaning. 3. Tree trunks and rivers: Well, in MHO one or the other must go. I think the difficulty you are having is that you have two images vying for reader attention. This places you as a poet to in the dilemma of just how to reconcile them and which one to give emphasis to without contradicting or distracting from the other. 4. Tornadoes and cartwheels? I agree that "tornadoes" used as a verb here is rather too strong a word to describe how leaves are being moved about by a wind. Cartwheeling comes across as comical. It conjures images of grade school children clumsily trying to cartwheel. It is also an action usually associated with solid objects and not groups. For example: "The asteroids cartwheeled toward the moon." You see, to cartwheel one usually imagines a head and feet. But there are none involved in leaves and a group of asteroids. So another word would better convey the image you are seeking. 5. Copyright Website - ... Welcome to the Copyright Website! This portal provides real world, practical and relevant copyright information for anyone navigating the net. ... Copyright Wizard. ... http://www.benedict.com/ [This message has been edited by Radrook (10-21-2002 11:29 PM).] |
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Purple Poet On Wheels Member
since 2002-06-21
Posts 145Pittsburgh/Edinboro, PA |
I'm of the philosiphy "first thought best thought" Poetry should be a stream of consicness expereince and what spills out on to the page is the poem. I only revise poetry when I feel it is absoluly nessecery. Your poem is fine don't change a thing. It has a brillent muddled vividness to it. P.S. if you could send me copies of both vrions I would greatly appreciate it. P.P.O.W. |
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Radrook Senior Member
since 2002-08-09
Posts 648 |
You know, I just attempted that surrealism purist approach to writing poetry. But I had to rewrite my original thoughts here and there a little. Perhaps I am not cut out to be a purist surrealist. But no doubt that there are poems which DO spring practically complete from a poet's mind unto the paper. I have written a few of these. But generally speaking I find that revision has helped. After all, even Robert Frost revised extensively. I was recently reviewing his revision notes on his poem "STOPPING BY WOODS ON A SNOWY EVENING" The book I used had a picture of his original notes and I assure you he had to delete whole lines and phrases and restart several times. So if such revision is good enough for Frost--it certainly is good enough for me. But then again I am not of the surrealistic Purist persuasion. Robert Frost Poems - Robert Frost Poetry Page. The following are a selection of Robert Frost poems that I think people will really like. To accomodate ... http://www.robertfrost.org/books.html [This message has been edited by Radrook (10-26-2002 03:51 AM).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Why the center alignment and, even worse, why the arbitrary line breaks? quote: -one line would be better quote: --again one line. I like sooty city smells. quote: Not sure if this is necessary. quote: Are you kidding? Why do you want to tell me how good you are? Why not let me figure it out? Drop these useless line breaks and write a poem. quote: Why are you ruining this? Line breaks shouldn't be random. This is random. Please explain to me the advantage of 'corseted' as one line. quote: I don't think you need obscurity but these line breaks obscure the poem (Gee, have I made my point yet? )quote: Snow as fog? Not sure that works. I don't mean to be harsh, but c'mon, listen to your ear, not what other people tell you. |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Brad, in my own defense, I don't think you've given this a chance. What makes you think the line breaks are arbitrary? Should this be written completely devoid of breaks? One big paragraph? The line breaks aren't arbitrary- I put more thought into them than I usually do- maybe that, in itself, was the problem? In regards to your criticism of the first stanza, my only response is that I generally prefer shorter lines, both in reading and writing. 'Are you kidding? Why do you want to tell me how good you are? Why not let me figure it out? Drop these useless line breaks and write a poem.' I have to laugh here- you are, in decidedly arrogant form, telling me how arrogant I am. Why do I want to tell you how good I am? My God, I'm so sorry I wrote in opposition to your emperical definition of good, O dear me and my hubris. This is all tongue-in-cheek- my message does, after all, say "rip it apart," which you certainly did... 'Please explain to me the advantage of 'corseted' as one line.' Okay. Having corseted on one line is meant (along with the surrounding one and two-word lines) to lend to the feeling of constriction. In the original version, I didn't do this- I was responding to a suggestion by Rob. Maybe you're right, and I shouldn't do that- but then, what's the point of this forum then? I'm working on it. You don't post something in a critique forum if you're done with it. So I'm trying out different suggestions- sorry it didn't work for you. 'I don't think you need obscurity but these line breaks obscure the poem (Gee, have I made my point yet? )' No, actually, you haven't. You've made comments without explaining why you made them. Why don't you explain to me exactly why my line breaks are so bad- or is it that they are so crappy that it doesn't even ahve to be explained? 'Snow as fog? Not sure that works.' That's not the point. The point is that as the snow comes in, it grounds the previous rush of creativity, the last shot that I meant for autumn to represent. By referencing somebody else's work, the writer (I) cease to be creative- my behavior as a writer is mirroring the point of the poem. Is that pretentious? Maybe. Sorry it didn't work for you, but y'know, your critique wasn't all to constructive. Generally, if I think a poem isn't worth an in-depth critique, I opt to not respond, rather than give a derisive, lazy shoot-down. Thanks for taking what time you did take- unfortunately, I didn't gain much from your, uh, insights. To everyone else- thanks for the comments- I have been working on another revision, but I'm trying to let it rest awhile and go back to it. I'll eventually post the third version. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Fair enough, let me try to be clearer then: "The WIND asSAULTS the SENses AS an ARMED asSAILant; SOOTy CIty SMELLS and COLD AIR are its WEApons" By combining the first two lines, the first line becomes straightforward iambic, but the second line moves to a very strong trochaic rhythm strengthened by a spondee at the end. I've only stressed one word in the last line, but I suppose you could mark 'are' as well. What does this do? For me, you create the effect of slowing down the reader, it's a kind of misdirection play, you start out thinking, ah, she's going traditional on me and then you counter my expectations. I do not think that effect is created with your current linebreaks. "a block away from winter I think a shock away from better" Now, this is in iambic again. I like this very much but adding the spaces slows me down so much that I lose that effect. There are a lot of things you can do here but it certainly looks like you want to emphasize these specific lines, each space block not only slows down the reader, it also makes the last and first lines stand out (when you take a class, for example, most remember the beginning and the end and have a hell of a time with the middle, statistically speaking). By have these three lines in this form, you are essentially telling me,"Hey, these are important" and indeed I like the first and third lines very much, nicely done. But, "I think" is often considered invisible to the reader and by placing the emphasis on that as well, you lose a lot of punch. I'd think about separating the first and third lines with a long stanza, let the reader almost forget the line, go off in a different direction, and then bring it back when he or she isn't ready for it (Eliot and Gioa are really good at this). "and leaves are corseted in the black trunk of the street, composing a dead jagged river pulled tight and breathless" Now, you say 'corseted' here is designed as a kind of concrete poem if I read you correctly but a linebreak is also a form of punctuation (Denise Levertov's half a comma), it also can be seen as a pointer to the reader of when to breath but you are trying to show the inability to breath. When I'm reading this I'm breathing a lot. At the very least, if the leaves are corseted, shouldn't the words be close together? You seem to think that linebreaks are a matter of preference, I think they are designed to take the reader somewhere (not that I get it right all the time, hell, I don't even get it right some of the time.), now I suppose you might argue a contrast between the linebreaks and the corset, an irony if you will, but I still don't think it works. Honestly, I think a weaving, tapestry style would work better for your stated intentions. "unTIL it BILlows OUT, WHISpering REMnant of SUMmer DAYS reLIEVED (reLIVED) a TREEtop exPANDing IN the DELta OF an INterSECtion" See how that works? I wouldn't put a space block here either but continue the expansion. "the FLOWing SWIRL of BRILlianCY SURges PAST a STOP SIGN, torNAdoes and CARTWHEELS unreSTRICTed unTIL I admit that this is certainly a debatable scansion, but if you can hear this, you can see how you almost parallel your first stanza in the first two lines (and a nice touch with slowing down on a stop sign). The last two lines are rhythmically chaotic (at least as I read them) and this fits nicely with your theme. "struck down by Soderbergh¡¯s monolith, caught in the treads and grills of obscurity." I think if you simply combined all this into one stanza it would create a strong image of expansion without, in my opinion, the forced nature of the way you have things structured now. Let the rhythm do the talking: "STRUCK DOWN by SOderBERGH'S MOnoLITH, CAUGHT in the TREADS and GRILLS of obSCURiTY." See how the rhythm continues chaotic but with an anapestic transition returns again to the iambic style at the end? To try to see it this way: "until it billows out, whispering remnant of summer days relieved (relived), a treetop expanding in the delta of an intersection, the flowing swirl of brilliancy surges past a stop sign, tornadoes and cartwheels unrestricted until struck down by Soderbergh¡¯s monolith, caught in the treads and grills of obscurity." Now, maybe that's not better (it's by no means perfect), but it carries so much more weight to my mind than breaking everything up. "A week later, the snow sneaks in on little cat feet but it doesn¡¯t move on." Hush, you can be as pretentious as you want , but what you can't do is avoid a reader's association of 'little cat feet' with fog (not just in Sandburg by the way). You have to accept that if a reader gets the allusion, fog will naturally pop into his or her head. You, as the writer, have to figure out how you are going to incorporate that into your poem because that's why allusions add to a poem. Is that better?  Brad |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Much better. Thanks. |
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