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Peace
| Critical Analysis #2 |
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Peace |
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SimplyGold Senior Member
since 2002-07-10
Posts 1453 |
Is this a cinquain? Comments please. Peace Passive spirit Innocent in its love Close your eyes sang the lullaby Rest [This message has been edited by SimplyGold (10-11-2002 05:54 PM).] |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
SG Generically a cinquain is merely a five line stanza, but the term was adopted early last century to apply to a particular form, see the following link: http://www.ahapoetry.com/cinqhmpg.htm Sometimes constructed as follows: Line1: one word to name the subject Line 2: two words to describe it Line 3: three action words about it Line 4: a four or five word phrase describing the subject Line 5: one word that means the same thing as the first word, or a word that sums it all up. However none of the above excuses bad writing, and this is bad. You start off with an abstract noun. That is not good. Next time try picking a concrete noun, something you can see, hear, taste, touch or smell. It gets worse: Peace [abstract] Passive [abstract] spirit [abstract] Innocent [abstract] in its love [abstract] Close your eyes [great something tangible!] sang [vague] the lullabuy [typo] Rest [abstract] Avoid abstractions, avoid cliches, avoid unnecessary adverbs and adjectives. Now write another. Rob |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
SG I should perhaps make it clear that I am not trying to be mean only trying to help you write better poetry. Regards Rob |
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SimplyGold Senior Member
since 2002-07-10
Posts 1453 |
Wow! I'm bleeding, laying on the floor like a wounded bird. O.K. I'm up now. Be gentle, I'm still recovering. I've looked at the site you suggested and they seem to use many abstract thoughts and ideas?? SG [This message has been edited by SimplyGold (10-11-2002 10:38 PM).] |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
SG - I don't know diddly about cinquains (cool word though, isn't it?). I disagree with Rob, however, on the subject of abstractions. I feel though that it's a matter of preference more than a hard and fast rule. If we stuck to concrete images, i believe, we would lose out on a lot that poetry has to offer. abstracts induce the reader to actually think - though concrete images can as well, just in a different way, i suppose. i think the problem here isn't so much in abstractions, but in collection. in effect, what i see in your poem isn't that it's too abstract, but rather that you expond on the orignial idea to the point of redundancy. Peace Passive Spirit Innocent Close your eyes lullaby rest all the above are merely forms of each other... in context. it reads like an extension of the first word throughout. now, as a manner of exploration, this would probably work out well. but in the form you chose, you don't have the room to explore, simply repeat; it's almost like you chose to pick several synonyms and string them together. perhaps this idea would work better in a more extended format, where you could dig a little deeper, provide some contrast, etc. if you want to use it in this format, i would like to suggest killing lines two-four. instead, use that space to explain the peace, contrast it, or develop it without just repeating it. that's just my op though. i've read some of your other work before and think you can do better than this. you have the abilty, perhaps you just tried to bunch it up too much here. Peace, Chris |
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SimplyGold Senior Member
since 2002-07-10
Posts 1453 |
Thank you Chris, I appreciate the comments and suggestions. You are very helpful. This was my first attempt at this form. I can see now that I need to study this more and that I was off base. I will examine the style more before attempting again. Next time they won't be just extensions of definations, which I see clearly now, and hopefully will have substance. Please note your critique was appreciated.  sg |
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Radrook Senior Member
since 2002-08-09
Posts 648 |
Yes, syllabically it is a cinquain. I like cinquains. Wrote a few but can't locate them. I agree with Christopher's assessment of your poem. It is not the abstract but the redundancies that need to be modified. Here are some sites that will further expose you to the cinquain. Cinquain Homepage - CINQUAIN. SAMPLES OF CONTEMPORARY CINQUAINS by: Jeanne Cassler. Thomas D. Greer. Alan Reynolds. ABOUT CINQUAINS. Perhaps as early as ... http://www.ahapoetry.com/cinqhmpg.htm Billie Dee: Cinquains for the New Millennium - ... zines, Adelaide Crapseys complete cinquains. Billie Dee: Cinquains for the New Millennium, CLICK HERE to return to Table of Contents, ... http://www.geocities.com/billiedee2000/cinqua Friendship Cinquain - Page 1. A cinquain is a simple five-line poem that follows a pattern. Interview a friend and use what you learn to write a cinquain about that person. ... http://home.att.net/~teaching/langarts/friend Cinquains http://www.planning.org/kidsandcommunity/pict Poetry in Forms Series Part One: Cinquain - ... Write about a noun. Cinquains generally fail if you try to make them about emotions, philosophies or other complex subjects. ... Sample Cinquains. Tucson Rain. ... http://www.poewar.com/articles/cinquain.htm [This message has been edited by Radrook (10-12-2002 01:07 AM).] |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
SG Don’t listen to Christopher is my advice. Abstract words are definitely something to be avoided by the beginner writer. What Christopher is doing is confusing the words themselves with the conveyance of the ideas. There is absolutely nothing wrong with seeking to convey abstract ideas like love desire hate etc but don’t do it by using those abstract words. You won’t succeed. Using abstract words to convey abstract ideas does exactly the reverse of making the reader think more, it makes the reader think less! In fact in excess it makes the reader lose interest completely as he or she is swamped by a deluge of “unseeable” language. Instead seek to convey abstract ideas by using concrete images, example: BAD He was feeling so lonely and sad He thinks of the beautiful times they had The love they once shared that was special Remorse turns to anger in his heart He feels like nothing will ever be the same again GOOD Outside the winter rain falls steadily Inside he picks up the one photograph he has of her: laughing under the Eiffel Tower He could have dived into the river to save her but now each day will be grey as the water that took her I hope this helps. Also Radrook, or one of his quotes, offered good advice: “Cinquain - ... Write about a noun. Cinquains generally fail if you try to make them about emotions” Well that is precisely what I was saying except I’d go further and say, write about a concrete noun when you are learning. And yes, your second attempt using “critic” as the start word was much much better, you really should have left it and not deleted. Best regards Rob [This message has been edited by Robtm1965 (10-12-2002 02:01 PM).] |
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SimplyGold Senior Member
since 2002-07-10
Posts 1453 |
Rad, Thank you for the input and all the sites. I'm planning on reading up and then attempting again. Sincere Thanks SG |
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SimplyGold Senior Member
since 2002-07-10
Posts 1453 |
Rob, First, let me thank you for spending the time and expounding on this subject. You have motivated me to learn about this and I intend to give it another try once I understand more. Your examples are a great help and I espcially enjoyed the differing opinions. I edited out my short response because I felt I had not yet understood the concept and was again being redundant in it's content. However, I'm at least glad that I got the first line correct.  SG |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
SG You are very welcome. Cinquains are an interesting form, but Christopher was right to suggest that they are restricting. How about another poem from you without the strictures of a form poem. I would be glad to look at it. Rob |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
quote:You may be right about not listening to me, but I don't think for the reason you've listed Rob. What it seems to me your initial suggestion was, was to completely ignore abstractions. That falls (in my mind) into the same genre of statements such as, "Avoid abstractions, avoid clichés, avoid unnecessary adverbs and adjectives." So one has to wonder - if abstractions and clichés are another form of the language we're using, why should we avoid them completely, while we can use adverbs and adjectives? I think if you were to modify that to say, "Avoid all unnecessary abstractions, clichés, adverbs, adjectives, verbs, nouns, pronouns, etc.", it might be a wise and worthy statement. Perhaps though, we could just say, "Avoid all unecessaries." That should cover it, right? quote:nope, no confusion there. quote:Disagree completely with this. The main problem I have with this statement is the implied limitations. What I get out of this is that this person can't do it. Personally, I'm glad that our history hasn't been filled with people who believed others who told them "You can't do it, you won't succeed", because our world would be a lot less than it is today. Great things have been done by people who do things that others thought they couldn't. Why? Because they chose to try anyway, to find a way to make it happen, despite the limiting statements people pile on top of them - because of their own inability to see the change of change over the horizon, is my own opinion. Rob - tell me that in order to hit a golf ball, and to play a good game, I have to start with my grip. Get that, then work on the basics of the swing, go to this, that, right placement, addressing the ball, etc. Good advice, all of it. But when do I get to hit the ball? One of the most frustrating things in life is getting bogged down in the basics so much that you don't get to play the game - one can get frustrated with that soon, removing the enjoyment that could have been there; they might be missing the ball, slicing it, or what have you, but they're still getting the change to play - and Rob, that's most of the fun. You swing will straighten out with practice, your grip will improve, and you'll hit the ball farther - just the same as if you'd stuck yourself in the basics the entire time. Just look at Jack Nicklaus - his father told him when he was just beginning to hit the ball as hard as he could. "Don’t' worry about how straight it flies, how far it goes, just go out there and hit it." He did - he was the first man to drive a golf ball 340 yards. It's the same thing here, I think. Don't suggest that someone should avoid doing something because they won't be successful. Tell them how to improve on it, where they made their mistakes, etc., but please don't be one of those people who tells someone it's not possible. You're only limiting them and yourself. And the other reason I disagree with the above statement is that it's oxymoronic: you can convey abstract ideas with concrete wording, but not with abstracts? So does that mean I can only convey concrete images with abstracts? Your examples are really not equal either. I think I understand the point you were going for, but on the meter, the weight distribution of effort / intent is a bit stilted. In the first, you used a collection of sophomoric, overused ideas, while in the second you attempted to place some art inside. I feel like I'm watching the elections in Florida a couple of years back. Ah well, I'm shaking my head here. I agree that one should monitor their usage of abstraction, just as with any other portion of the language. But to step away from it completely is to limit your toolbox. Just because you might not use a sledge hammer often doesn't mean it's not a valuable tool sometimes, eh? |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
SG You said: “Actually, I find that many poems are written about feelings and self indulgence -- I do it myself. I'm trying to consciously get away from that. I would much rather write about observation and understanding. I'm working at it.” This is music to my ears SG and I would be delighted to help if I can. Rob |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Christopher Unfortunately I haven't got time to answer you point by point, my mailbox is suddenly full of aggrieved moderators. Still I will say that we are probably only disagreeing about degree and timing. When I see a writer who I think might benefit from an overstatement of the position then I overstate it. Perhaps I should start to qualify my statements with an occasional “usually”. This is directly related to my other point, viz that I am addressing my comments to a particular poem and poet in an effort to help them. In this case it seemed to me that a direct and, yes, simplistic statement was all that was required. And my “you won’t succeed” comment which seems to have so pre-occupied you was in that vein. Far from discouraging SG I hope I was simply slamming the door firmly on one particular avenue and opening in wide into another more productive one. And happily this seems to me to have worked because SG has already written a much better piece in Open and her attitude is not to sit there and sulk or get all offended or to start calling me a silly old academic professor, but to get up and try and start to write in a way which is, as she puts it, “less self-indulgent”. This is totally great and I would love to help her. Christopher, the internet is stuffed full of forums where people write nothing but introverted abstract cliche ridden tosh, and while at one level it’s fine if it helps them and others, at another level it is a criminal waste of talent and intelligence. And why does this happen? It happens because all some people need (not all I admit) is for someone to stand up, be honest, tell them the truth and show them another way. There is nothing shameful about doing that, the shame is in letting an intelligent person blunder around unaided trying to “succeed” because you are too frightened of offending to be forthright. I might try and address some of your other points (which were good) later. Best regards Rob |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
This is later: Christopher Your golf analogy is a good one except you are bending it to breaking point to serve your need. What actually happens is that you start with grip, swing, placement etc etc .. you practice those awhile and then you start hitting - that is what happens in 99% of cases with no problem. And a novice goes on to improve from there. Sure there is Nicklaus and a few like him who might have the natural ability to self correct bad habits but there are not many. I can assure you that if Nicklaus had been developing some destructive habits after a few weeks he too would have been taken back to basics. The poetic equivalent is the “poet” who has posted flawed poetry (and please don’t lets get into what that is!) for a few months with no improvement. The zillions of mediocre or bad poets out there who stay mediocre or bad are testament to the fact that for the vast majority this statement is not true: “your swing will straighten out with practice, your grip will improve, and you'll hit the ball farther”. I am not saying that abstractions and even cliche are always a no no in poetry. Ashbery’s “Baked Alaska” for instance employs both, the first in abundance. But writing intelligently and meaningfully using abstract words is incredibly difficult, and regrettably writing incredibly badly using abstract words is incredibly easy. And it’s also easy to convince yourself that you’re emulating great poets by doing so. Writing to express abstract ideas using concrete imagery requires much more effort than simply using abstract words but it is a mental discipline that eventually enables a poet to grasp use of language to a point where he or she can mingle abstract diction and imagery in a way that produces an effective artwork. Much of Mary Oliver’s work provides good examples of a consummate poet doing just that: http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/geese/geese.html I could have written abstract abstract abstract against much of that poem, but I don’t, and I don’t think I need to tell you why I don’t. “And the other reason I disagree with the above statement is that it's oxymoronic: you can convey abstract ideas with concrete wording, but not with abstracts? So does that mean I can only convey concrete images with abstracts?” You are maybe being a little disingenuous here Christopher. The answer to the latter is “no” of course. “Ah well, I'm shaking my head here. I agree that one should monitor their usage of abstraction, just as with any other portion of the language. But to step away from it completely is to limit your toolbox. Just because you might not use a sledge hammer often doesn't mean it's not a valuable tool sometimes, eh?” Correct. But to hand a baby a PC and expect beautiful results rather than a broken PC is unrealistic. An apprentice is allowed the more refined tools only as he or she grows in the experience to use them at which point I am back to my original point which is that the comments I make in CA are addressed to particular poems or poets with a view to helping them and do not necessarily represent my more general views about literature. I’ll finish with a good old cliche: “Walk before you try running” or you’ll stay crawling forever. That is correct I think for all but the rare geniuses among us, one of which I most definitely am not! Regards Rob |
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Crazy Eddie Member
since 2002-09-14
Posts 178 |
Rob/Chris I think you’re both right, either method is legitimate and both would lead to an improvement or even complete mastery given time. Yes it’s possible to learn by you’re mistakes and yes restricting the tools employed until you are confident in their use will minimise mistakes and most definitely yes both roads lead would lead to improvement. Which one will get you there the quickest is a matter of opinion, my own personal opinion falls squarely between the two, get the basics and then filter in new devices in moderation to see if they work. With reference to the golfing analogy this would be the equivalent of sticking to the irons until you get to a reasonable score and only then attempting a tee shot with the driver. If the shot goes awry you’re still likely to end up with a reasonable score but will have gained experience for next time, if it goes straight down the fairway you might cut a few shots of your normal round. As to the poem itself, I think it’s all been said |
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SimplyGold Senior Member
since 2002-07-10
Posts 1453 |
Please see "Wise Man" new post. Is this any improvement? Thanks for all the input. I am in awe of the dialogue and the indepth critiques. Hope I learned something on this next try. SG |
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Robtm1965 Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 263 |
Eddie Clear off! We don't want any of this conciliatory mediatory middle of the road interventionism - I was just enjoying a nice argument! Rob PS But you could be right. |
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Crazy Eddie Member
since 2002-09-14
Posts 178 |
quote: Proving that there’s a first time for everything.  |
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Radrook Senior Member
since 2002-08-09
Posts 648 |
Hi Simply Gold! You are certainly welcomed! We are here to help. Feel free to contact me via email if you need any further assistance. God bless! [This message has been edited by Radrook (10-15-2002 03:00 AM).] |
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